Found new norton washita stones

[Andrew Pitonyak]

They have a limited supply of new norton washita stones so I ordered one. Skinny, 8 x 3 x 1/2, probably meant for one of their sharpening systems, but I wanted to give one a try.

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Washita-Arkansas-Stone-P1880.aspx

Will let you know if I like it after it arrives but I expect these to just sell out quickly so I figured I would start a post before it arrives. Won't be able to test it until next month.

Kind of excited. :-)

Should I expect this to act there same way the older washita stones work? I don't have a lot of experience so I don't really know the difference with the older lilly white, #1, #2, the newer WB6 stones.

If anyone had experience, would to know how I might expect these to differ.

I seem to think that lily white is somehow the best followed by #1 then #2, but could not begin to say why I think that or what the difference would be. And clearly this labeling was dropped with the newer stones labeled WB6.

Enlighten me please.

[ken hatch]

They have a limited supply of new norton washita stones so I ordered one. Skinny, 8 x 3 x 1/2, probably meant for one of their sharpening systems, but I wanted to give one a try.

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Washita-Arkansas-Stone-P1880.aspx

Will let you know if I like it after it arrives but I expect these to just sell out quickly so I figured I would start a post before it arrives. Won't be able to test it until next month.

Kind of excited. :-)

Should I expect this to act there same way the older washita stones work? I don't have a lot of experience so I don't really know the difference with the older lilly white, #1, #2, the newer WB6 stones.

If anyone had experience, would to know how I might expect these to differ.

I seem to think that lily white is somehow the best followed by #1 then #2, but could not begin to say why I think that or what the difference would be. And clearly this labeling was dropped with the newer stones labeled WB6.

Enlighten me please.

Andrew,

Thanks for the link. I ordered one and will see how close it is to my Pike Lilly White once in hand.

ken

[Mel Fulks]

They old ones were sold with grit labels. I think ; fine,medium ,coarse I've never seen a Washita with a pattern like the
one they show. Let us know how well it works.

[Jim Koepke]

Andrew, thanks for the information. Got my wallet out and jumped in. There are a few stones sold on ebay claiming to be Washita stones but they seem to be "Made in China."

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Thanks Andrew, I ordered one too. We'll just have to see how well they graded it. Joel from TFWW sold new Lilly Whites for a little while, until Norton stopped production.

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/59

[Kevin Adams]

Interesting, I’m tempted to try one, but I have 3 nice washitas now, including an 8x3x1 lily white that Joel sold for a while. The linked stone is a very different appearance than any I have. Mine are not as coarse as how that one is described. Will wait for reports from you all!

Thanks.
Kevin

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Andrew,

Thanks for the link. I ordered one and will see how close it is to my Pike Lilly White once in hand.

ken

I really will appreciate an update and your opinion on it.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I do not know much about the “Washita” stone, so I did some research. I grabbed the book “Oilstones How To Select And Use Them” by Pike. If you want a copy, let me know, it is very old, but converted to a PDF. So, the booklet states the following:



A carefully-selected Washita stone, sach as the Lily White brand, or a medium grade India are the best general purpose oilstones for all around use.

Pike lists the most widely used oilstones as Arkansas, Washita, India, and Hindostan. Notice that Arkansas and Washita are listed as separate types. I usually see them listed as an Arkansas stone.



The Washita and Arkansas stones are quarried in the state of Arkansas, U. S. A., near the celebrated Hot Springs. They are quite similar in general appearance, both being white or nearly so, but the Arkansas is very much harder, more compact, and finer grained than the Washita. There are various qualities of Arkansas and Washita rock, from a perfect, fast-cutting grit to the vitreous, flinty rock that is practically worthless.

There is an entire section about the Washita. Not sure how much I should include here.

In the next section, Pike lists "Extra", but then never mention it again, so perhaps they mean that the number one and the number two are considered "extras" because the Lily White is the best. Not really sure.



There is no oilstone which requires so much experience to select intelligently as the Washita, For it is found in several degrees of hardness and fineness. For ordinary carpenters’ tools, such' as -p1anes, bits, chisels, gouges, etc., a medium-soft, even-grained, fast-cutting Washita should be chosen.

The Washita stone is supplied in several qualities. The best is the Lily White brand, next in order are
the Extra, Number One, and Number Two qualities. Each of these qualities is made in all shapes and sizes required for different kinds of tools.


The Lily White Brand, or quality, is selected from the very best rock, each stone is tested at the factory, and labeled, telling whether it is a Soft, Coarse or a Hard, Fine grit. Every Lily White stone, Whether of coarse or fine grade, is of UNIFORM GRIT THROUGHOUT, free from hard or soft spots, or streaks, and fast cutting. Each stone is perfectly white, carefully finished and bears a guarantee label. The manufacturer warrants each stone to be just as labeled and to give absolute satisfaction; hence neither the dealer nor the mechanic take any risk on this stone, as it will be replaced free of charge if not satisfactory.


THE. NUMBER ONE QUALITY WASHITA is a well-finished stone, free from cracks, quartz, or notice able imperfections. It is the most largely used brand on account of its lower price, but as there are both hard and soft stones in this grade, and they are not warranted, the stone should be selected by an experienced judge. It is usually better economy to buy the labeled and guaranteed Lily White Brand.


THE NUMBER Two QUALITY WASHITA is, as its name would imply, a second-quality stone. It usually contains some quartz streaks, “sand holes,” or other imperfections, but always has one or more. serviceable faces, and many very excellent cutting stones can be found in this grade.


In addition to the above-named grades of Washita stone, there is also the Rosy Red, which is very similar in cutting qualities to the Lily White, except that it is generally a little softer and coarser. This stone is streaked with orange or dull red color, which indicates a soft, porous grit. It is a guaranteed
brand, and is well adapted for grinding down dull tools or wherever rapid work is required.


The difference between a hard and soft Washita stone can be told in several ways: first, by the sight, as in a soft stone the minute pores are usually apparent to the eye, and the surface of the stone will have an open, granulated appearance; second, by scratching with a knife blade, as a soft stone can be quite readily scratched on the edges, whereas a hard stone will show very little impression; third, by the sound, holding the stone loosely by one end between the thumb and forefinger and tapping it with a knife, light hammer, or any metal substance; the soft stone will sound dead like wood whereas a hard stone gives for a metallic ring.


There is much more, but that is enough for now I think. So now I need to try and guess what I am looking at when I find or see a stone. I suppose you can also make guesses based on how the stone looks, so I grabbed a few pictures of some Washita stones.

It is interesting to me how the different “Washita” stones look so different. This is what the stone looks like in the add for the sharpening supplies Washita. The grain pattern looks like it is quartersawn kind of.


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These are the Lily White Washita stones advertised at Tools For Woodworking, very white, no grain.


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Next is a No 1 Washita listed on ebay right now. Not Lily white, but closer than the Washita shown at Sharpening Supplies.


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Now look at a WB-5 on ebay right now, it looks like the No. 1 above.


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Here is a photo of three random No 1 Washitas from different times (one Pike and two Norton stones). The top stone that is the bottom because it showed the stone coloring better. The top is colored from use.


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Here is another Norton WB Washita, a WB-6. It looks like the WB-5, no surprise.


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So how would I classify the WB washita stones?

Continued in my next post because I have too many photos.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Continued from the previous post.

I have no idea what to make of this particular stone labeled as a “Washita”. This has even more coloring than the Sharpening supplies stone shown in my previous post. So are we getting into those "colored" washitas mentioned in the previous post?


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Here is one from Case.


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The “134” from Buck is listed as a Washita I believe. Oddly, it is listed as a “Medium” stone, which surprised me.


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Finally I get to a few pictures of a Lily White Washita.


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This one is glued into a wooden box.Probably because they only flattened one side. Also, i took a picture from the side because it is "dirty" on the top.


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I guess that Pike even marked Lily White under their name. This one is glued into the box and the label is on the top. There is not a lot of stone sticking up above the wooden box side. This stone is from a museum and it claims to be from the 1800’s. There is a strop glued to the top of the box. Since the stone is glued into the box, how do they expect you to use this with the label on top of the stone? This is just strange!


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And no, I have no idea how any of these stones behave.

[Nathan Johnson]

Welp, this appears to be a rabbit hole I'm better off avoiding altogether.

[Tom M King]

The stone I bought from Smith's, in 1974 or5, as a Washita had those variegated streaks through it. It's not white, but more different shades of Purple. It's a fabulous stone, but worn to almost nothing in the middle now. I ordered one of those too, hoping it is similar to my old one. My stone is not as fine as the Lily whites, but is more of a coarse stone that cuts Really fast.

Left in photo. Broken ones were broken by a tornado.

[Rafael Herrera]

Some more reading, https://smallworkshop.co.uk/2020/11/14/washita-oilstones/

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The stone I bought from Smith's, in 1974 or5, as a Washita had those variegated streaks through it. It's not white, but more different shades of Purple. It's a fabulous stone, but worn to almost nothing in the middle now. I ordered one of those too, hoping it is similar to my old one. My stone is not as fine as the Lily whites, but is more of a coarse stone that cuts Really fast.

Left in photo. Broken ones were broken by a tornado.

Wow, that is VERY dark. That gives me some perspective on color.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Some more reading, https://smallworkshop.co.uk/2020/11/14/washita-oilstones/

This is a great resource, thanks for the link!

[ken hatch]

I really will appreciate an update and your opinion on it.

Andrew,

Will do once the stone is in hand.

ken

[Rafael Herrera]

I've acquired four Washitas over time, the last one I got works the best for me, it is fast in getting a burr and gets my tools ready for the strop quickly. The first three I got feel like they're slightly harder and therefore a little slower in getting a burr. I worked a chisel tonight on all the stones until I got a burr. I can feel the stone abrading the metal slightly more aggressively on my favorite stone. They all work well, though.

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My first stone, an odd size, about 7 x 1.5. Probably hand cut.

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My second stone, a little larger than the first, but still narrow. This one also likely hand cut.

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My third stone, a larger stone, 9 x 2. The odd size may also point to a hand cut stone.

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My last stone, standard 8x2 size. Almost white, probably a no. 1 or a Lilly White from the looks of it, it didn't come with a label. The standard size points to a Pike/Norton made stone.

These stones patterns don't exactly match the pictures of the new Washitas, but it may not matter, it may be just cosmetic, we'll know once we get them.

I have only one sample of Lilly White branded Washita, a slip stone. Here are pictures of it overlaid on top of the other stones.

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To add another datum, here's a Canadian, marketed as Novaculite stone, hand cut. Sold by the Federal Abrasives Company. It is porous like a Washita, but definitely harder than all my other Washitas. It can raise a burr, but takes longer. It leaves the bevel slightly more polished than the Washita.

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[Andrew Pitonyak]

the wooden cases, some of them have wood ends that are the same height as the stone; or it looks to be the same height. Does that help or hinder sharpening?

[Rafael Herrera]

They're intended to let you use the whole length of the stone by slight overshooting the ends. It kind of makes sense, a tip I picked up from Bill Carter.

[Kevin Adams]

They're intended to let you use the whole length of the stone by slight overshooting the ends. It kind of makes sense, a tip I picked up from Bill Carter.

Bill has some great videos on YouTube making oil stone boxes with end grain blocks. I think they also look nice! I need to make new boxes for my oil stones and will use the end grain blocks. Your boxes look great, Rafael.

Kevin

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Bill has some great videos on YouTube making oil stone boxes with end grain blocks. I think they also look nice! I need to make new boxes for my oil stones and will use the end grain blocks. Your boxes look great, Rafael.

Kevin
Anyone have a link please? I have been thinking about making a few... Would love to see them

[Rafael Herrera]

Here's the first one, https://youtu.be/-62acG8vpqY. There are four parts.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Here's the first one, https://youtu.be/-62acG8vpqY. There are four parts.

Thanks, time to watch

[Rafael Herrera]

My stone was supposed to arrive today, but it got delayed. Anyone got his/hers?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

My stone was supposed to arrive today, but it got delayed. Anyone got his/hers?

I asked them to hold the shipment since something ordered is out of stock.

So I don't I have mine yet.

[Rafael Herrera]

I have this one to try in the meantime. The reddish stone is a medium 8x2x1 India. I think I have a problem.
445651445652

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have this one to try in the meantime. The reddish stone is a medium 8x2x1 India. I think I have a problem.

I know that I have a problem...

[Charles Bjorgen]

My Norton Washita arrived last Monday and I used it, with oil, on a couple of kitchen knives as well as my pocket knife. I’m not qualified to make any educated comments on this stone other than to say it worked. My son prepared our turkey a day early and commented that the knife he used was very sharp. I used only the Washita and finished the knife with a series of light strokes to removed the burr. I do have one other coarse Washita from a kit sold by Woodcraft about 20 or so years ago. I will do some comparisons between the Norton and Woodcraft stones and also a soft Ark from that set. Will also try it on chisels and plane irons soon.

[Michael J Evans]

I ordered one on the 20th and still not expected until the 2nd... Fedex is very slow these days. According to the tracking it's still in Wisconsin (6 days after order).

I bought it as a early Xmas gifts to myself. One washita and a crystolon just to try it out. Along with my soft and very hard arkansas I should be good for natural stones and the varying grits.

Interested to see the time vs my diamond set. I didn't use my arks much because I never had a course stone. (I consider the soft ark fine still).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

FedEx says my order will arrive Sunday.

I asked them to hold my order and ship it Friday and sure enough, they did. I owe them for that.

Them I need to find time to test.

[Tom M King]

Mine came. I'll try to remember to check it out, comparing it to my old stone, tomorrow.

[ken hatch]

Mine also came today.

I have not had metal meet stone yet but just from the feel I expect it will be a very fast stone, much courser than a soft Ark.

A photo of four washita stones:

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The new stone is bottom right, bottom left is a Norton Lilly White, above it is a Pike Lilly White, and the top stone I'm not sure but it was sold as a Washita. Whatever it is not as fine as the Lilly White stones.

ken

[Tom M King]

Same as Ken, I only had time to open the box today. Just a fingernail test makes me think it's going to be similar to my purple Washita, and a fast cutting stone.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I did not have time to try sharpen, but I did take the time to unpack. I need to finish a few Christmas Presents before I start testing the stone :(

Let me start by saying that the entire box was wrapped in bubble wrap.

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The box has a "cut-away" so that you can see the stone, but, all I see is a brown wrapping. The stone is advertised (and is delivered as) 1/2" thick but the box advertises it as 1" thick. This is really strange.

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The other side of the box lists the part number WS688-WASHITA

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The primary item of interest on the back is that it says:


Norton Sharpening Stones are made of the highest quality materials and are unequaled for long sharpening life, maintenance of shape and smooth cut. To obtain best results, always lubricate your stone with genuine Norton Sharpening Stone Oil. You can also use tap water in place of the oil.

I never use water on my Arkansas stones. Plan on using oil on the Washita.

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Look at all of that wrapping around the stone. It is indeed 8" long and 2" wide.

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The part number is printed on the side of the stone. This is the same part number on the box, but although you cannot see the ruler well from this shot, it is very much 1/2" thick.

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And my stone has a bullseye.

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This stone looks very similar to the stone that they list on their web site (first picture in the post above https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?287314-Found-new-norton-washita-stones&p=3071934#post3071934). I cannot say that it looks much like the others. This does not look like a Lily White or a Number 1, and certainly not the WB stones. There are some Washitas in the next post (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?287314-Found-new-norton-washita-stones&p=3071936#post3071936) like those from Hiram Smith. Looks vaguely similar to something from Rafael Herrera maybe...

Will be interested to see how they work, I just need to finish my Christmas Presents.

[Rafael Herrera]

Washitas are supposed to come from a particular quarry. The stones we're all familiar came from this site. It raises questions that these new stones don't resemble Lilly Whites or Rosy Reds. Are they just soft Arkansas that someone at Norton had the great idea of branding Washita? Are they from the right site, but they were not selected to match the traditional appearance?
One needs to keep in mind that these rocks were formed from sedimentary deposits beneath an ancient ocean. The dark impurities may just be color only.

The pattern in Andrew's stone is very interesting, perhaps the ring is the imprint of some gas escaping through the freshly deposited sediment, around 400 million years ago.

[ken hatch]

I found time to use the new Washita to establish the bevel on a pre-war Marples chisel. As expected the stone is fast, what will be interesting is seeing how fast it is once broken in. With first use it is between a coarse and med India stone, I expect with use it will settle in between a med India and a soft Ark.

It could be a useful stone to have in your kit.

ken

[Tom M King]

I had a chance to try it this morning, on a W1 timber framing chisel, right next to my old purple Smith's one. They are really quite similar. The feel, and sound of steel on stone are undistinguishable from each other. I did 20 stokes on each stone, on opposite sides of the back. Scratch pattern is a little deeper with the new one, but that's probably because it doesn't have any wear yet.

With oil on the stone, some of the same pink colors showed up, but none of the purples.

I'd say it's between my King 300, and Sigma 400 waterstones, and roughly the same speed. That King stone is quite a different stone from their muddy stones that most are familiar with.

I'm very glad to have it, and appreciate the heads up on the availability. My old one is almost worn through, and I've not seen a similar one for decades. It won't be considered a finishing stone, but a very good shaping one.

That's 10 strokes by hand on the bevel of the chisel that had been ground, but never sharpened.

The worst thing is that it won't quite fit in the 46 year old box I've kept the old Arkansas stones in, but did find a place in the corner, sticking out a bit.

[Kevin Adams]

Ok I broke down in a moment of weakness and ordered one last night. 😎 Looking forward to trying it out and more reports from the field!

Thanks,
Kevin

[Andrew Pitonyak]

So there we were, sitting around the camp fire and my daughter decided to whittle a stick with her pocket knife. She wanted to use the stick to roast marshmallows. No deal, this knife was dull. The knife is Elk Ridge, don't really know anything about them, but I handed her my Buck knife with an S30V steel, and that knife is sharp. Well, I let her use it until I had time to sharpen her knife. Today was the day.

I never sharpened this knife and it was very dull. The sides had different angles on different sides, it was odd. So the "good side" very quickly was ready to go off the Norton Washita, but the other side I needed to remove a lot of metal and take a bit of repair. Normally I would have just pulled out one of my powered knife sharpeners, but I grabbed my Norton IM313 and used the coarse Crystolon (Silicon carbide) to take the angle down to where it needed to be. Took it just enough to pull a burr on the good side. When I did the good side on the Washita, I very quickly had pulled a burr already. I was really surprised how fast the Crystolon put the correct profile on the knife; my first time giving one of these a try.

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Next up my new Norton Washita stone. It looks very different with the Norton honing oil on it. This image it has oil on some and no oil on some. I was surprised how fast this cut. My soft Arkansas stone will cut, but not nearly this fast. I was able to easily cut paper after sharpening the knife with this stone. I could profile with this stone, but it would take a really long time. I was trying to do minor reprofiling on a soft Arkansas stone a few months ago and nope, too much work.

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OK, so this cut news print pretty easily, but this is my daughter, so drop it onto my Dan's Hard Arkansas Stone. Maybe I should have gone soft next, but figured why not. This image has the knife. Notice that it has some things that stick out that the thumb can use to pull the blade. I really like these on a knife like this, but, they stick out too far to be able to use the angle that I want in the way that I want. This stone is much harder than the Washita, I probably should have used the Soft Arkansas stone first.

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Note the blue thing in the picture above? That is an angle guide. I love those little guides. They are inexpensive and they come in a set from 10 to 20 degrees in increments of 1 degree. I bought them on Amazon. You can stack these if you want, so to get 24 degrees, you can use 10 and 14 degrees. So you can easily do from 10 to 39 degrees if you want. Amazon used to sell two sets for a good price but right now I only see single sets. Highly recommended.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N4QMO7U

Next up Dan's Hard Black. I do own a Translucent, but Dan's claims that their Hard Black is finer. I have to admit, this put on a really nice edge. I remember when I purchased my first set of Arkansas stones, I was told by an "expert" that an Arkansas Stone could not be used to sharpen a modern knife with a stainless blade. I was very sad and immediately did some research and it seems that it really is hard enough. If you look at the stone, you can see that it was removing metal. All things considered, it feels to me like it cuts pretty fast for a fine edge. I don't mean fast as in I can profile an edge, but it is very quickly removing metal. Now that I am getting better at hand sharpening, I should run a test with my Dan stones compared to my "Best" stones (yeah, the company name is Best, pretty smart since it is the first hit for a Google search against "best arkansas stones").

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I was not sure that I could make it better by stropping, but I stropped it anyway. Well, yeah, it helped. At this point, the blade is wicked sharp and has almost no resistance as it goes through news print. My daughter was impressed. This was her instant reaction to how well it cut.

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I was really impressed with the Crystolon stone as well. I will eventually try the Norton India stones.

I am really happy with the Norton Washita stone. I think that it will wear well and it cuts pretty fast; at least new it cuts fast. I highly recommend the Washita stones. If you need to remove a lot of metal fast, buy a coarse / medium Norton Crystolon stone, it cuts very fast.

I suspect that these Norton Washita stones are meant to work with the Norton IM200 system since that uses 8" x 2" x 1/2" stones. There are two versions, one has a coarse / medium crystolone followed by a fine India and the S version has the medium Crystolone, Fine India, then the Soft Arkansas. This is the IM200 currently at $100 (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-3-Stone-IM200-System-P31.aspx). You can get all sorts of Norton stones for this like a Hard Arkansas. The IM313 is the same, but the stones are 11.5" x 2.5".

If you want something "rougher" than the washita, and more portable, just get a Combination Crystolon stone for the fast stuff (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Combination-Crystolon-Stone-P179C25.aspx). You can get an 8"x 2" stone for like $25; the largest stone is 12" x 2.5"; wow. You can sharpen / fix a bunch of knives on one of these for cheap and then move on to your Washita. I don't think you would need the Crystolon unless you need to fix the blade.

I picked up an India stone, but I have not tried it yes (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Combination-India-Stone-P69C25.aspx), and they are cheap as well. I think that the India stone will produce a finer edge (I am told). I am only mentioning it because I think that these are some pretty good options if you want something faster than your Washita or Arkansas stones.

[Michael J Evans]

Andrew
Thanks for the review. I had always read that's arks would not cut these super steels either. I think more so most people mean they are so slow that it's pointless. I got rid of my s30v as I found I liked more mild steels, especially sandvik, but when I had s30v I always used my mini belt sharpener or diamond stones.

Along with my washita I ordered a crystolon to try, I'm truly excited to try them.

I'm thinking it would go crystolon>washita>soft ark>hard black or should there be a india in there somewhere.

I read a little piece from sharpening supplies saying the fine crystolon and course india were basically the same or something along those lines as Norton doesnt use the same grit rating for both crystolon and india's?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Andrew
Thanks for the review. I had always read that's arks would not cut these super steels either. I think more so most people mean they are so slow that it's pointless. I got rid of my s30v as I found I liked more mild steels, especially sandvik, but when I had s30v I always used my mini belt sharpener or diamond stones.

I was left with the impression if that I was "keeping my knife sharp" that I can easily use an Arkansas stone because the silicone quartz is hard enough to cut it, but certainly not fast. OK, I don't really know if it is hard enough to cut the carbides in the super metals, but S30V and S35VN is designed to be "easy-ish" to sharpen.

According to Norton, due to their unique composition, Arkansas stones polish as they sharpen, imparting an extremely fine, smooth edge. Because of this, they are typically used as the final sharpening step after an India or Crystolon stone is used, or to maintain an already sharpened edge. (see https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-us/resources/expertise/choosing-sharpening-stone).



I'm thinking it would go crystolon>washita>soft ark>hard black or should there be a india in there somewhere.

I read a little piece from sharpening supplies saying the fine crystolon and course india were basically the same or something along those lines as Norton doesnt use the same grit rating for both crystolon and india's?

For sure I am not an expert, but, it is my understanding that the Crystolon (Silicon Carbide) is coarser grained than the India stones. If you want to cut fast, it should be diamond or Crystolon. There is a reason that Norton uses the standard sharpener in their three set series to be either:



Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
Medium Crystolon (P180 = 78 Micron)
Fine India (P400 = 35 Micron)


or slightly more expensive:



Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
medium India (P280 = 52.5 Micron)
Soft Arkansas (P800 = 22 micron)


I set the "grits" based on https://www.qualitymill.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/ITEMS/EN/Norton_61463685450_Catalog.pdf



Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
Coarse India (P150 = 97 Micron)
Medium Crystolon (P180 = 78 Micron)
Medium India (P280 = 52.5 Micron)
Fine Crystolon (45 Micron) [my guess is 340 ish]
Fine India (P400 = 35 Micron)
Soft Arkansas (P800 = 22 micron)
Hard Translucent Arkansas (6 micron)


If you are using the Crystolon stones, the combination stone is a coarse / fine (127 micron / 45 micron) stone. I had no problem going from the medium Crystolon to the Washita with the knife.

For some reason, in my head, I think that the India stones are more uniform in size and will provide a better edge off the stone.

The India combination stone is also coarse / fine (97 micron / 35 micron)

If the blade is a really hard steel, Crystolon. If the blade needs serious work and I want to do it by hand, Crystolon. If I want a more refined edge and it aint that bad, India. If I am not going to then jump to say the Washita, I want an India stone after the Crystolon. That said, a custom knife maker by the name of Joe Calton claims that he uses the Norton Crystolon Combination stone because the cost is so good and the performance is very high. I kind of like this video of his:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT4VGTHrenY

For certain I was cutting news print off the medium crystolon stone. I assume that the Fine Crystolon will do even better. The question is where do you want to stop? I saw a very clear difference with the knife and how it handled the news print from each stone. I used: Coarse Crystolon, Medium Crystolon, Washita, Hard Arkansas, Hard Black, Strop. I think that it was David Weaver who did a video with a Washita then a strop on a plane blade and then took whisper thin shavings. Now they are doing something kind of like that with the Unicorn method with chisels.

Can I get by without the Washita? Yeah, probably. I can probably go from a Fine India directly to a Soft Arkansas. I have not tried the India stones yet, I do know, however, that I am tickled pink with the Norton Washita and I think that you will really like the stones that you ordered. If you ever find yourself near Columbus Ohio, give me a holler and you can try some of my stones.

Andrew

[Kevin Adams]

I was left with the impression if that I was "keeping my knife sharp" that I can easily use an Arkansas stone because the silicone quartz is hard enough to cut it, but certainly not fast. OK, I don't really know if it is hard enough to cut the carbides in the super metals, but S30V and S35VN is designed to be "easy-ish" to sharpen.

According to Norton, due to their unique composition, Arkansas stones polish as they sharpen, imparting an extremely fine, smooth edge. Because of this, they are typically used as the final sharpening step after an India or Crystolon stone is used, or to maintain an already sharpened edge. (see https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-us/resources/expertise/choosing-sharpening-stone).




For sure I am not an expert, but, it is my understanding that the Crystolon (Silicon Carbide) is coarser grained than the India stones. If you want to cut fast, it should be diamond or Crystolon. There is a reason that Norton uses the standard sharpener in their three set series to be either:



Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
Medium Crystolon (P180 = 78 Micron)
Fine India (P400 = 35 Micron)


or slightly more expensive:



Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
medium India (P280 = 52.5 Micron)
Soft Arkansas (P800 = 22 micron)


I set the "grits" based on https://www.qualitymill.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/ITEMS/EN/Norton_61463685450_Catalog.pdf



Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
Coarse India (P150 = 97 Micron)
Medium Crystolon (P180 = 78 Micron)
Medium India (P280 = 52.5 Micron)
Fine Crystolon (45 Micron) [my guess is 340 ish]
Fine India (P400 = 35 Micron)
Soft Arkansas (P800 = 22 micron)
Hard Translucent Arkansas (6 micron)


If you are using the Crystolon stones, the combination stone is a coarse / fine (127 micron / 45 micron) stone. I had no problem going from the medium Crystolon to the Washita with the knife.

For some reason, in my head, I think that the India stones are more uniform in size and will provide a better edge off the stone.

The India combination stone is also coarse / fine (97 micron / 35 micron)

If the blade is a really hard steel, Crystolon. If the blade needs serious work and I want to do it by hand, Crystolon. If I want a more refined edge and it aint that bad, India. If I am not going to then jump to say the Washita, I want an India stone after the Crystolon. That said, a custom knife maker by the name of Joe Calton claims that he uses the Norton Crystolon Combination stone because the cost is so good and the performance is very high. I kind of like this video of his:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT4VGTHrenY

For certain I was cutting news print off the medium crystolon stone. I assume that the Fine Crystolon will do even better. The question is where do you want to stop? I saw a very clear difference with the knife and how it handled the news print from each stone. I used: Coarse Crystolon, Medium Crystolon, Washita, Hard Arkansas, Hard Black, Strop. I think that it was David Weaver who did a video with a Washita then a strop on a plane blade and then took whisper thin shavings. Now they are doing something kind of like that with the Unicorn method with chisels.

Can I get by without the Washita? Yeah, probably. I can probably go from a Fine India directly to a Soft Arkansas. I have not tried the India stones yet, I do know, however, that I am tickled pink with the Norton Washita and I think that you will really like the stones that you ordered. If you ever find yourself near Columbus Ohio, give me a holler and you can try some of my stones.

Andrew

I can’t wait to try this “new” washita or whatever it is. My current quick set up is the coarse/fine India followed by translucent. Do you think this new washita can take the place of the combo India or I’ll be jumping to far to the translucent? I almost bought the combo crystolen stone, but thought the combo India was good enough.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I can’t wait to try this “new” washita or whatever it is. My current quick set up is the coarse/fine India followed by translucent. Do you think this new washita can take the place of the combo India or I’ll be jumping to far to the translucent? I almost bought the combo crystolen stone, but thought the combo India was good enough.

Thanks.
Kevin

I have not yet tried the India stones but if you are happy going from the India stones to the Translucent, I would expect you could go from the Washita to the translucent based on a few things, but I put a Hard Arkansas between them and was wondering if I should have gone to the soft first. Report back your opinions after you get your stone.

[Marc Reeves]

Interesting thread—thank you for initiating.

Joel Moskowitz, proprietor of Tools for Working Wood, https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/joel posted a concise, well illustrated summary of the Norton line today on his blog. Worth a read...as always

[Rafael Herrera]

I was going to mention Joel's blog too.

My stone is going to be delivered today, so I'll post my impressions tomorrow.

In my case, most of my tools are crucible steel and others labeled "tool steel", like some Millers Falls irons. I have some hardware store chisels. I don't have PMV11 or A2 chisels. I own one A2 block plane iron and one HSS iron from China.

Regarding Crystolon, I have coarse and fine crystolon stones that I use to repair and re-profile chisels and irons after I grind the bevel with the bench grinder. They dish out rather soon, so when that becomes too much I lap the stones with silicon carbide grit on a glass plate. They are fast for what I need them to do, which is mostly repair work.

Regarding India stones, I got a medium and a fine stone, they cut slower than the crystolons, but they are fast enough. The main reason I decided to try them was a comment by Bill Carter that he had an India stone on his bench that he had had since he was a boy. One of the reasons I don't like waterstones is the need to keep them flat, so if the India stones are hard enough to last and stay flat, then that's a plus for me.

When a working edge tool needs to be refreshed, I go directly to the Washita stone and then the strop, that seems to work for me so far.

I have a Dan's black Arkansas, in its current state it is very fine, when I bring a tool to it after the Washita I can raise a small burr with it after some time and then go to the strop. I can't tell if I get a better edge or not, I don't spend enough time in the workshop to have a more informed opinion.

I recently got several vintage translucent stones and have sharpened a few chisels with them, they feel a little more coarse than my black ark, they can finish off an edge, but I haven't been blown away.

I sharpen my one A2 block plane iron on the Washita stone, it does a well enough job and I don't think it takes too long. On one occasion the edge experienced several very small fractures and I was able to get past them on the Washita. The iron belongs to one of the new sweetheart Stanley block planes. I use it to plane end grain and small chamfers, it does a good job at that.

I haven't done a lot of testing with the HSS plane iron, it can be sharpened on my Washita. It's not properly setup yet, so I can't say much about it.

[steven c newman]

Starting to sound like Old Don Q. out jousting the windmills of the perfect edge....

446131

Sometime, you just might have to USE that sharpened edge....

[Jim Koepke]

My stone arrived on my porch today. It was a long strange trip according to the tracking and what a FedEx employee told me yesterday.

Anyway here it is with my accumulation of other Washita type stones:

446168

The label on the small one towards the top center label says Norton Abrasives - Lily White Washita.

It took a little hunting to find a chisel that wasn't sharp. Found an old Craftsman with a rough edge and a bit of pitting:

446169

The feel was a bit different than my other Washita stones. That is likely due to not being broken in yet and being used without a holder.

It didn't take long to get the edge sharp. It took a little more time to get rid of some of the pits:

446170

It still has a way to go. If it is ever worked any more it will likely be worked using abrasive paper before returning to the stones. With at least four other, nicer chisels in this size it likely will be done by someone else.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

My first thought when I saw the stone was this is way more porous than my other washitas. I put some water on it and it soaked it.

I measured the specific gravity of this and a vintage washita and a black Arkansas. The black ark measured 2.60, the vintage washita 2.35, and the new washita 2.03. So it's definitely a coarser stone.

I tested it with an old framing chisel.

446179
Before applying the chisel to the stone.

446181
After a few minutes, burr drawn, some reprofiling of the bevel.

446182
After the strop. The chisel is sharp.

It feels coarser than my other washitas, but it did a good job. The stone is a bit concave on one side and convex on the other, maybe about 1/32".

446183
After use and to the left of a Washita stone. Not so distinct once once the swarf stains the stone.

All in all, I like it. I wish it were 1" thick.

Is it a Washita from the Pike mines? Who knows. I called Sharpening Supplies and the guy I talked to couldn't tell me one way or the other, just to treat as a coarse natural stone and not to make such a big deal out of it.

Raf

[Michael J Evans]

received mine today as well and it has a couple gouges in it...:(446185 Sent a email to sharpening supplies to see if they'll do anything about it. What's weird about the big gouge is it looks like it was outlined with a pencil to point it out, see the gray line around it? That gray line smudged like a pencil when I rubbed it with my finger. I used the other face anyways as it seems fine. Never used a washita before but I liked the feeling of it and it seemed to cut real fast. I followed it up with a soft & hard ark and felt like my overall sharpening time was shortened a lot.

I also bought & tried for the first time a Crystolon, that thing really will grind a new edge quickly. I tried it on a garage sale chisel and was thoroughly impressed with the cutting speed. Went course Crystolon > fine Crystolon > washita and I felt like the Washita would've left a usable edge.

[Kevin Adams]

Raf, did you use oil on it or water? I wish it was at least 3/4” or even 1” thick, too! I wonder how much it will wear.

Thanks for the reports, mine is scheduled to arrive next week.

Kevin

[ken hatch]

Raf, did you use oil on it or water? I wish it was at least 3/4” or even 1” thick, too! I wonder how much it will wear.

Thanks for the reports, mine is scheduled to arrive next week.

Kevin

Kevin,

Used correctly it will last your lifetime and the lifetime of your grandkids.

ken

[Rafael Herrera]

Raf, did you use oil on it or water? I wish it was at least 3/4” or even 1” thick, too! I wonder how much it will wear.

I used oil.

I don't really know how fast it will wear. Given that it's on the Arkansas "softer" side it may wear some over time, but not as fast as a Crystolon stone.

I'm making a box for it, the mortise will need to be shallow.

[Steve Voigt]

I don't want to be a downer, but the question of wear is pretty important. The reviews that several people have posted don't really tell us much about these "Washita" stones. A real Washita cuts quickly when freshly abraded, but is harder than a soft Arkansas and will last a good long while before it slows down. It is also more pressure sensitive than other stones--it will cut quickly with a lot of pressure, but produce a fine edge with light pressure. These two characteristics--wear and pressure sensitivity--are likely why Washitas were so prized in the first place. A review of a single sharpening session doesn't tell us much about how these new stones compare.
My guess is that these new "Washitas" are just very coarse Arkansas stones, and have little in common with a true Washita. They certainly don't look like my vintage Washitas.

[David Bassett]

... My guess is that these new "Washitas" are just very coarse Arkansas stones, and have little in common with a true Washita. They certainly don't look like my vintage Washitas.

Given how much damage selling a misrepresented product could do to Norton and how little advantage "faking" a small batch of NOS Washitas would provide, I can't see these aren't from the Washita mine. It does seem they aren't selected with the care and properties of the premium Washitas of the past. Perhaps there are areas of the mine where stone is closer to that found in other Arkansas mines? We probably won't get the detailed answers we'd like, if anyone really still knows.

[jesse ross]

Received my washita today and there’s a noticeable bow over the length and a lesser one across the width. I’m new to oil stones, should the stone be flattened first, and what would be the best method?446223

jesse

[Mel Fulks]

I'm sure many are wondering about this. The old Norton stuff all came from one mine. Washita area. So if they did not
come from the same mine ,they really should be named differently. Even identical twins usually have different names!
Perhaps a polite inquiry would bring an answer.

[Rafael Herrera]

I called their technical support line. The guy I spoke with couldn't tell me much beyond the fact that the stone came from their Arkansas mine(s) and that it is about 400 grit.

As I noted above I measured its specific gravity last night and it came to about 2.03, which is at the bottom of the coarseness scale given at the Dan's web site. One of my washitas measured at 2.35 which comes within the expected range for a fine washita.

From looking at the Dan's Whetstones website, a soft arkansas has a higher specific gravity than a washita. That means a soft ark is more compact than a Washita, I believe that also means that a soft ark is harder than a Washita, not the other way around.

Given the apparent coarseness of this stone, it may turn out to be a good stone to have in the workshop. Since it's in the lower end of the compactness scale, it will wear out faster than harder Arkansas stones.

There is a lot more information regarding "Ouachita" stones and how they differ from Arkansas stones in this report. It's an interesting read.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044102940343&view=2up&seq=134

[Kevin Adams]

Received my washita today and there’s a noticeable bow over the length and a lesser one across the width. I’m new to oil stones, should the stone be flattened first, and what would be the best method?446223

jesse

Jesse, there are others a lot more experienced than me in this thread, so I’m sure others will chime in. In my opinion, I’d rather have a bow (although that’s seem to be pretty large from the pic) than a dip as the former is easier to flatten plus most people’s sharpening will naturally use more of the middle of the stone anyway so it will wear back. I use a diamond plate to flatten typically.

Will be interested in others’ opinion on how badly that is crowned.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Kevin Adams]

I used oil.

I don't really know how fast it will wear. Given that it's on the Arkansas "softer" side it may wear some over time, but not as fast as a Crystolon stone.

I'm making a box for it, the mortise will need to be shallow.

Thanks, Raf. Please show a pic of your box, you make some nice ones. With end grain blocks I hope!! 😁

[Tom M King]

As far as wear, I don't see anything to expect it will wear any faster than my 46 year old one that seems very similar. That old one is about worn through, in the middle, and started about 1/2" thick too. That old stone has never been flattened. I started using it when I was young, and inexperienced, so would probably use it a little more carefully after those 46 years of experience.

If it wears out, that won't be the last $37, including shipping, that will go down the drain.

I was glad to hear, through Rafael, that the technical guy agreed with my assessment of it being about a 400 grit, as I said earlier in this thread.

[Jim Koepke]

My two oldest in this picture, in wood holders, have both dished over the years:

446247

The long thin one next to the new stone was dished down the middle. It was purchased at a local flea market. The woman said her husband used to sharpen scissors for a living. She had a few crystolon stones that looked like waves at the beach from extended use.

The side not shown of the skinny white stone was used against the reddish brown stone to improve both of them.

jtk

[Steve Voigt]

As I noted above I measured its specific gravity last night and it came to about 2.03, which is at the bottom of the coarseness scale given at the Dan's web site. One of my washitas measured at 2.35 which comes within the expected range for a fine washita.

From looking at the Dan's Whetstones website, a soft arkansas has a higher specific gravity than a washita. That means a soft ark is more compact than a Washita, I believe that also means that a soft ark is harder than a Washita, not the other way around.

Given the apparent coarseness of this stone, it may turn out to be a good stone to have in the workshop. Since it's in the lower end of the compactness scale, it will wear out faster than harder Arkansas stones.



Hi Rafael,

A couple notes. The SG numbers you quoted from Dan's refer to THEIR "Washitas," which are not from the Pike mine. Everyone I've talked to who has used one of these stones says they are simply coarse soft Arks, nothing like vintage Washitas. A related point is that Dan's soft Arks have a reputation for being finer than soft Arks from other dealers, e.g. Natural Whetstone.

The Federal standards for soft Arks say they are below 2.2 SG, so the new "Washita" you measured at 2.03 seems right for a soft Ark. There is no Federal standard for Washitas, but the number you got (2.35) seems right for a vintage stone--they are nearly always heavier and harder than soft Arks. I don't consider myself a true expert, but if you ask a real expert, e.g. Dave Weaver or Darryl Gent, they will tell you the same thing.

To sum up: A vintage Washita is usually heavier and harder than a soft Ark, but will cut as quickly and last longer. If you have a stone that clocks in with a low SG number like 2.03, and appears more porous than than a vintage Washita, then it is probably just a coarse soft Ark, regardless of what the label says. That's not to say it's a bad stone--a soft Ark is very useful!--but it's not a vintage Washita.

[Kevin Adams]

If it wears out, that won't be the last $37, including shipping, that will go down the drain.


Well ain’t that the truth...I’ll spill more than $37 worth of oil!! 😆

[Rafael Herrera]

Hi Steve,

I don't have samples of soft arks, vintage or otherwise. It'd interesting to hear from other people. I'm also not sure if a "soft" arkansas means a coarser, more porous stone than a Washita, in all instances. That doesn't seem to be the case for the Dan's ones. From the geological survey I posted above, a distinction is made between Arkansas and Ouashitas (or Washitas) stones, they have different applications. However, that report is over a century old, so the industry probably evolved and what gets called a soft Arkansas may be different in recent times.

I have three Washitas that from their size seem to be factory made and two others that from their non-standard size may be older and hand cut. If factory made I'm assuming they were selected to an specific grade.

I measured their SG and they were all very close. In the picture below, from left to right the SGs are: 2.37, 2.29, 2.31, 2.35, 2.03, and 2.44. The two with highest SG are the non-standard sizes. These measurements were made with a kitchen scale and on stones the were rectangular in shape. I measured the weight in grams and the volume in cm3, the ratio of these two numbers is the SG. There're errors, but these measurements should be good enough.

The new Norton Washita doesn't seem to be of the same class as these vintage ones. It is basically less dense, but only use will tell us if it is equivalent to the old washitas.

Is it a real Washita? Probably not. Did it come from the Washita mine? who knows, it may have, but it would not have been labeled Washita in the old days.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0NVI4LKIOOYjXzn0s_SJ2ZypS08EQV3CLzhstpYcCI-gKJrHTP69e3zwCpFeC9A3ngKJ6p4MwK3Rp84LY0JSPqmd61KAi A0JfQG9czskjROrWO46_iZtekJ83JFhvSfryXrevw4_8ICy4Zk 0MlPjGZrG_qSz1dIzY7sJTkN9jCPoD2m4PUjlam5c0eTOC5YTX 6X1iqDyfXD7HZOSW9O82n-tDj4zxcKfzx-gag2soeY_besZTqaIg_tGgAeVkMldBBYSOuLMgsOAoGsN8li6R rJe83NZ58Oy59dTQrzSLJMZxkR0LBmJQLUixL-yyWhkxGuVnyoeOZypP9ULxi54NEbwvz3jBF2YGr0NDYfABjNt8 XJpKne4EOaeb1D9yg2SZuRyVymUAsBwFBkGHrpDaUq3UVAIyqi WNV38GiSZSK9xj47Whfm3k-VRk0YSBiLJAZOYp27WMyc1Vi73o32JX57U-c7N_EL1YSw97LSwj2p8_i7ILVCfa4qPKNlVlcw1UcI3sZ223lW JVMqtlZYNETQEkvhZnj_fY1aI4BR4PvuvG94SgEAMOmnhWeMl6 td0lt4kxkNW-CGY_YL4rGsBRQzK36Kkg6ML_82CwJzjVxRuS-GzaeFsyP_jHbdDi2RXgQ9pX9mMsO3ePMY6oN5ZGSDq9Geiu3Vy Lyq5LKABdAkjRD-k3xwTPvnBypBvFxY=w1557-h876-no?authuser=0

[Andrew Pitonyak]

received mine today as well and it has a couple gouges in it... Sent a email to sharpening supplies to see if they'll do anything about it.

Curious what happened.

As for the thickness, they market it as 1/2" and it really is 1/2" thick, but, the box says 1", which is really odd.

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=Andrew Pitonyak;3075904]Curious what happened.

Looks like they hired some beginner rock maker. But the important thing is the boss will make it right.

[Jim Koepke]

Curious what happened.

As for the thickness, they market it as 1/2" and it really is 1/2" thick, but, the box says 1", which is really odd.

There were likely a lot of old boxes still in stock and it was more economical than printing new boxes for a one time product.

jtk

[steven c newman]

446311

Amazing what one can find, just walking around,,,,
446312
Tractor Fest, 2015...West Liberty, OH...

[Michael J Evans]

Curious what happened.

As for the thickness, they market it as 1/2" and it really is 1/2" thick, but, the box says 1", which is really odd.

They are supposed to be shipping another stone today. Hopefully it arrives in a decent amount of time. Last one took 14 days.

[Michael J Evans]

There were likely a lot of old boxes still in stock and it was more economical than printing new boxes for a one time product.

jtk

Agreed
For some of the packaging at my work we use very generic packages and then out the appropriate stickers or barcodes.

[jesse ross]

Reposting this question since last post was buried in the thread...

I received a NOS washita but noticed a significant bowing along length and matching concavity on reverse side.

is this useable as is or does the stone need to be dressed flat, and what would be a good method?

Jesse

446346

[ken hatch]

Reposting this question since last post was buried in the thread...

I received a NOS washita but noticed a significant bowing along length and matching concavity on reverse side.

is this useable as is or does the stone need to be dressed flat, and what would be a good method?

Jesse

446346


Jesse,

Several others have received stones with a bow, my stone has a slight hump on one side but not bad enough to return it because the other side is close to flat. A hump is hard to remove, if it is significant I would return the stone for no other reason than the stone is thin and while using it correctly will cause little wear if you flatten both sides you might not have enough stone left.

If you decide to flatten the stone loose diamonds or diamond plates would likely be your best bet but that is a guess on my part as I've never needed to flatten a Washita or Ark stone.

ken

[Rafael Herrera]

I received a NOS washita but noticed a significant bowing along length and matching concavity on reverse side.

is this useable as is or does the stone need to be dressed flat, and what would be a good method?

Jesse, I believe these are newly mined and not NOS.

Mine also arrived with a hollow on one side and a belly on the other. I thought of lapping the hollow side with silicon carbide grit on float glass, as I've done before on other stones. It doesn't take long.

My thinking is that if it's used mainly with chisels and knives, the hollow doesn't matter. If using the bellied side, it eventually will wear into flatness.

I'm concerned that if I were to use it on plane irons that I wanted the edge to be straight, the unevenness of the surface would result in an undesired camber along the edge.

[Tom M King]

Mine has a hole missing, on one side, with a pencil circle around it. I'm not worried about it. For the cost, including shipping, I'm glad to get it. That kit stays in my truck, and handles the sharpening chores when I'm away from my sharpening sink. It fills a slot that I worried would be lost. I haven't even checked it for straight. It will do what I want it to regardless.

[Rafael Herrera]

... and the stones stock is gone....

[Tom M King]

I figured they probably just struck a little vein of it, when they were quarrying. Since I hadn't seen one similar for 46 years, I was glad to get one, defects, and all.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Or they could do what DeDeers does with diamonds - leave it in the ground to keep the prices up.

[Mel Fulks]

Maybe I've missed some info. Read it all....but comprehension might need night school. The stones are from Norton.
They own the brand ,so they can change name or stick it on brassieres ,if they want to. The new crop are not the same
as the others , so I think they are ALL going to be finer than any old Washitas.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I was under the impression that they didn't do it simply because the demand was not there. The prices I see on ebay, are very high, but they're selling very few compared to how many you would need to sell to make it profitable in general.

There was sheet of stones that they were selling, we're not terribly expensive all things considered. if they were purposely trying to artificially keep the price up, I would have expected them to sell them for more

[Michael J Evans]

I received my replacement. The new one was supposed to be personally inspected.
It still arrived with a small hole in it that was circled with pencil. The other face is fine so I'll just keep it as is.
Maybe this is normal for natural stones? If I were them I would be upset with Norton I've received two with defects and Tom another.

[Kevin Adams]

I received my stone today. One side had some circled defects and the other side (which I would consider the “top”) was cupped. But maybe 2 minutes on my 400 grit Atoma diamond plate and it was as flat as needs to be. I really like the stone and almost wish I had bought two, but that would’ve deprived someone else of one. It’s a small stone and I wish it was maybe a 1/4” thicker, but I quite like small sharpening stones. It’s fairly coarse, but I didn’t think as coarse as my India. It’s quite attractive, too, and I think will settle in to be a very nice, all-purpose stone.

Now if I can only get Raf to make me a pretty box, I’ll be all set!

Kevin

[Jim Koepke]

This could have been stock that was mined years ago. No one knows for sure except the source.

These would have likely sold as fast if the price was higher.

It is doubtful there is some "Arkansas Stone Conspiracy" unfolding before our very eyes.

This stone does feel a bit coarser than my stone labeled; Norton - Lily White Washinta.

It has a place on my oilstone sharpening bench.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

This stone does feel a bit coarser than my stone labeled; Norton - Lily White Washinta

jtk[/QUOTE]
Jim , that is the first I've heard of the now being sold stuff being coarser than a Lilly White. I certainly trust your ability
to test and distinguish differences. Just from reading the current posts....I know I haven't heard of anything close to
that before. The impression I got was the new stock is between soft Arks and Washitas. Strange stuff. Thanks for buyin'
testin' and writin'

[Jim Koepke]

The new stone hasn't worn in of yet. Only a blade or two have touched it.

The feel and even the sound is different.

jtk

[Eric Rathhaus]

Hi Andrew - I was really joking. I suspect, as you do, that it's the cost of extraction and production not the existence of the stone in situ that limits retail sale.

[Rafael Herrera]

Since I'm making one for my stone, I might as well make a second one for you Kevin. Send me a PM.
Rafael

[Kevin Adams]

Since I'm making one for my stone, I might as well make a second one for you Kevin. Send me a PM.
Rafael

Dang, you’re my hero, Raf! I’ll send you a PM and we can figure out a trade maybe?

Thanks!
Kevin

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Given some of the posts about the new washitas, I personally inspected four of the new stones that were sent out. First, is the stone that I received. There is nothing special about it ans it looks similar on both sides.

447043

Now for a second stone, notice that there looks like a crack in the lower right corner. Here is an image of the stone AND a close up of that line. Nope, nothing to see here, looks fine.

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The third stone has at least one pencil mark on it, it is an x in the middle. There also appears to be a line drawn on the left, but I cannot tel for certain that there is a line. I have NO idea why there is an X draw on this stone.
447046 447047

The next stone has a very clear defect on the left. It looks like a smiley face and it is circled in a way that looks like a heart.

447048

The parts that would make up the mouth and the eyes are sufficiently soft that I could scrape it out with my finger nail.

447049

The other side of the stone has no apparent defects.

[ken hatch]

Ark stones and for that matter old stock Washita stones spoil us because most come near perfect. In the world of JNATs that is not necessarily the case, many stones will have good and bad areas and it is up to the user to learn the stone. These Washita stones may be the same. The question is do they bring enough to the table to learn the stone, for myself they do, a fast natural grinding stone that can be used with either oil or water is pretty special.

ken

[Kevin Adams]

So just a follow up on this thread from a while back...look at the box that Rafael made for my Washita...stunning craftsmanship! I had an old piece of bubinga laying around that was just the right size for the stone since it’s so thin. I am enjoying using the stone and the box made by Raf makes it even nicer to use. Thanks again, Rafael, now on to make more boxes for my other stones.

Kevin

451418
451419
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[scott lipscomb]

That box is really nice! Is it just the lid that's let in? I can't quite tell.

[Jim Koepke]

+one on what Scott said, that box is great.

jtk

[Kevin Adams]

That box is really nice! Is it just the lid that's let in? I can't quite tell.

The stone is also let in to the bottom and there are end grain blocks also added a la Bill Carter. Rafael sent me update pics along the way and even a video. He worked entirely with hand tools, from mortising the stone recess and cleaning up with a hand router to sawing out and carving the scalloped base and beveling the top with a smoother. He has definitely inspired me to make more boxes for my oil stones.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Andrew Pitonyak]

What a beautiful holder. In the back of my mind I want to make one, but especially since I have never actually had one in my hands it is a bit daunting.

I assume that the bottom was cut on a band saw.

Getting the sides to perfectly match the stone seems tricky.

Is the stone bedded? This particular stone is flat on the bottom, so perhaps not as important.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm...
451538
Came home with me from downtown.....during the last rust hunt...coarse & fine grit oil stone....

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hmmm...
451538
Came home with me from downtown.....during the last rust hunt...coarse & fine grit oil stone....

Very nice Steve... Is it the same stone both sides, but a different finish on each side? I have heard of that being done with different grit carbides so that one side is finer than the other.

[steven c newman]

two different grits....you can see the dividing line between them....I might try to make a cover for it....sometime...

[Kevin Adams]

What a beautiful holder. In the back of my mind I want to make one, but especially since I have never actually had one in my hands it is a bit daunting.

I assume that the bottom was cut on a band saw.

Getting the sides to perfectly match the stone seems tricky.

Is the stone bedded? This particular stone is flat on the bottom, so perhaps not as important.

Andrew, the bottom was sawed out at the deepest parts and then chisels and rasps were used to blend in the curves. The stone is bedded into the bottom with end grain blocks at the ends. Rafael cut the recesses with chisels and then used a vintage Stanley router to smooth the recess. You’re right, it’s nice now having something to use as an example for me to make my own. Check out Bill Carter’s YouTube videos, too.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Rafael Herrera]

You're welcome Kevin, glad you liked the box, it was fun to make. The Bubinga was a difficult wood but not too brittle or teary. It finished nicely. The details of the box construction can be gleaned from the Bill Carter videos, that's where I got the inspiration from.

Rafael

451576
The recesses were carved with chisels and finished with a hand router.

451575

The bottom outlines were drawn on the sides and cuts were made with a back saw. Then the waste was removed with a bench chisel and mallet. A lot of the work using an inexpensive Harbor Freight chisel. Finished with a rasp and sandpaper.

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Bottom part before installing the end blocks.

[Rafael Herrera]

Getting the sides to perfectly match the stone seems tricky.

Hi Andrew, I outlined the sides of the recess using the stone and a knife.

The side walls were cut after most of the waste was removed, then the stone was fitted by paring until achieving a nice tight fit.
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The scribed lines are visible here, the side walls were cut after the interior waste was removed.

Rafael

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hi Andrew, I outlined the sides of the recess using the stone and a knife.

The side walls were cut after most of the waste was removed, then the stone was fitted by paring until achieving a nice tight fit.
451581

The scribed lines are visible here, the side walls were cut after the interior waste was removed.

Rafael

Thanks, appreciate the detail.

Kind of blows my mind how you did that underside. I thought for sure a band saw and was amazed at that thought. Even more amazed given how you did it; using tools that I own.

Excellent! :-)

[lowell holmes]

I use these. They never have any issues.

https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/product_details.php?category_name=Diamond%20Sharpe ning%20Stones&product_id=119&gclid=Cj0KCQiAgomBBhDXARIsAFNyUqO19cRPrkuStON2azdR svoQmbVW3a-4B6yJjuTmOI5DPFBeIJLZYuwaAnNKEALw_wcB