Oneida Super Dust Gorilla - Not starting

[Frank Martin]

I purchased the 2.5 hp Onedia Super Dust Gorilla Cyclone in 2008 and have used it minimally since then in my hobby shop. When I attempted to run it today it did not start, no noise from the magnetic switch or the motor. I am suspecting the switch may have died but don’t know how to check or repair short of replacing it. When I opened it, everything looked fine visually.

Any ideas on how to troubleshoot?

Several pictures of the switch are below for reference.
445102445103445104

[Chuck Saunders]

Step 1 Uaing a voltmeter, check that you do indeed have power to the switch
Step 2 I would manually engage the contactor. Using an insulated/non conductive probe, press in the contactor (dark red squares) and see if the motor comes on.
Step 3 replace switch

Because you do not hear the contactor close it is likely the switch is bad. If the motor starts when you manually press the contactor then the switching is bad
If the Motor does not start when manually pressed then the overload circuit is tripped and since I don't see a manual reset I am assuming it is an autoreset once it cools down type.
At this point there isn't a lot you can replace except the switch

Chuck

[Bill Dufour]

I would add check the output terminals for voltage. Does the motor have a thermal overload? Is it just the one switch, no slave stations?
Bill D

[Stan Coryell]

Check for voltage at L1 and L3. I'm not a fan of forcing contactors closed. Do you have a a skematic? I'm not sure where the control voltage comes from.

Stan

[Frank Martin]

Attached is the schematic for the switch. I have voltage at L1 and L3. When I force the contactors I get voltage all the way through to the cable to the motor. However, at no time the motor started even when I measured voltage to the motor. The motor is a Baldor. Does this mean the problem is the motor or could it still be the switch?

If it is the switch, is there any harm if I use a regular switch rather than a magnetic switch? I searched and could not find the same switch available online. Called Oneida and left a voicemail but have not heard back. So, in the event it is the switch, I would like to know if I can get something off the shelf, instead of a magnetic switch.
445176

[Chuck Saunders]

interesting. If you're getting voltage to the motor and no motor action then it is time to look at the start capacitor. But when you push the start button the contactor does not close? You may have the evil two problems at the same time. As far as changing switches, yes you can use a switch other than a magnetic starter though you lose overload protection. And you need to use a switch rated for motor control, not just a "light switch". The other nice thing about magnetic contactors is if power is lost, they don't powerup when power is restored.
Chuck

[Paul F Franklin]

When you say you are getting voltage at L1 and L3 and at the motor...are you measuring between L1 and L3 and between U and V at the motor? And seeing 240 volts or close? Or are you measuring from those terminals to ground or neutral?

Have you turned the circuit breaker completely off and then back on?

[Stan Coryell]

I suspect the heaters triped the control circuit. Disconnect T1 and T3. Make sure the heaters are reset. Then check to see that you have control voltage between L1 & 95, and
L1 & 17. What is the primary voltage and what is the control voltage?

[Bill Dufour]

The motor is bad. I am not sure if that switch will lock on if the load is not drawing any current.
I would run the overload adjust lock to lock and reset it to where it was. Maybe jump around the stop switch with a clip lead.
Before I replace that switch I would disconnect the motor jumper in a 240 volt load and see if that makes the switch work. It could be as simple as two 120 volt light bulbs in series connected to T1 and T2.

[Bill Dufour]

Even if the start circuit is bad you should hear a hum from the run windings when power is applied. feel the case for a vibration or use a iron feeler guage. I still suspect an internal thermal overload inside the motor

[Frank Martin]

I bypassed the switch entirely and direct wired the motor. No response. Checked the capacitors, they look fine and when I measured the capacitance they both had readings in the correct range. Does this mean it is time to pull the motor and take it to a motor repair shop or are there any other checks / fixes I can try?

Below are additional pictures of the motor:
445242445243445244445245

[Frank Martin]

Even if the start circuit is bad you should hear a hum from the run windings when power is applied. feel the case for a vibration or use a iron feeler guage. I still suspect an internal thermal overload inside the motor

Any ideas on how to access this on the motor I have? I did not see a switch in the wiring box or where the capacitors are located. Do I need to disassemble the motor further to see this thermal overload switch?

[Stan Coryell]

Any ideas on how to access this on the motor I have? I did not see a switch in the wiring box or where the capacitors are located. Do I need to disassemble the motor further to see this thermal overload switch?

Does the motor nameplate call out "thermally protected "?
The thermostat is an option. It's a thermal switch to work with a relay. I doubt your motor has a thermostat. Could you post a picture of the motor nameplate? I think it's odd the motor shorted open. Are you measuring voltage at the motor with your jumpers in?

[Tom Bain]

I have nothing to add on diagnosing the issue, but man, that sucks. Baldor motors are typically bullet-proof.

[Frank Martin]

Does the motor nameplate call out "thermally protected "?
The thermostat is an option. It's a thermal switch to work with a relay. I doubt your motor has a thermostat. Could you post a picture of the motor nameplate? I think it's odd the motor shorted open. Are you measuring voltage at the motor with your jumpers in?

Picture of the motor nameplate is attached to post #11. I don’t see anything about thermal protection on it. I measured voltage at the motor with one probe at a live connection, another to ground. What do you mean about “jumpers in”?

[Paul F Franklin]

Make your measurement across the two hot wires, looking for 240 volts. Measuring one wire at a time to ground will not show a problem if you have one leg open. The open leg side will still show 120 volts to ground since current can flow from the good leg, through the motor (or the control transformer in the switch), to your meter. If I was a betting man, I'd bet one leg of your 240 is open.

An alternate way to test would be to connect some other 240 volt load (if you have one) to the same circuit, or connect your motor to a different 240 volt circuit.

[Frank Martin]

Make your measurement across the two hot wires, looking for 240 volts. Measuring one wire at a time to ground will not show a problem if you have one leg open. The open leg side will still show 120 volts to ground since current can flow from the good leg, through the motor (or the control transformer in the switch), to your meter. If I was a betting man, I'd bet one leg of your 240 is open.

An alternate way to test would be to connect some other 240 volt load (if you have one) to the same circuit, or connect your motor to a different 240 volt circuit.

I believe I found the problem. We recently had AC installed in our house. Contractor took power from the subpanel in my garage shop to connect power the AC unit. The outlet feeding the cyclone is wired from the subpanel. All my other outlets were still working after this installation. When I attempted to measure 240V by across two hot wires at the motor, I was getting a very low reading, close to zero, despite reading around 115V across each leg and ground. Then I went back and did the same measurement across the two hot ports on the outlet, I also got near zero reading, despite measuring 115V at each hot wire and ground combo. Does this mean the HVAC contractor changed the wiring to basically connect both hot wires to the same line from the subpanel, instead of two separate lines?

My other 240V outlets accept a different plug type than the cyclone. I will swap one of the plugs from another machine to test the cyclone motor on a different circuit and I bet it will work just fine.

[Paul F Franklin]

Assuming your DC circuit is connected to a two pole breaker in the sub panel, it would be difficult for both wires to be connected to the same leg since the sub panel is designed so every other slot goes to a different leg of the 240. More likely to be a loose connection somewhere. Perhaps the contractor moved breakers around to make room for the AC breaker and knocked a wire loose. Make sure the contractor didn't move the DC circuit to two single pole breakers; they could be on the same leg.

[Stan Coryell]

I would not swap anything around. Simply measure voltage between phases in your motor starter. L1 to L3, you should measure 240 volts. If not go to the sub panel and check voltage.

It would be uncommon to burn up a motor starter AND have the motor windings short open. (Like, buy a lot ticket).

240 volt single phase must be measured phase to phase. Phase to ground may not tell you if you are missing one phase, which is probably your problem. Or, a slim possibility that you have two of the same phase.

Your motor starter is meant to, among other things, protect motors from overload and loss of one phase. I find it rarely productive to force them closed. It's always better to start with trouble shooting.

[Bill Dufour]

I do not see the terminal panel. it states J&J are thermostat leads. if installed. I doubt it has them. I was thinking a red button on the outside to reset a overload click set type overload.
It is odd that both run and start windings failed at the same time.
I agree with above new info. You do not have two seperate hot phases. the red and black wires are the same phase so all you have is nothing.
Bil lD

[Bill Dufour]

Some one screwed up on the original install. the two hots coming in are red and white. When the electrician worked on the other end he assumed the white wire was neutral, as code requires. Green or bare is ground, white is neutral, any other color is hot. You can mark them permanently at both ends and use them how you want but I bet neither end is marked . I know the end in the switch box is not marked.
Bill D

[Frank Martin]

Some one screwed up on the original install. the two hots coming in are red and white. When the electrician worked on the other end he assumed the white wire was neutral, as code requires. Green or bare is ground, white is neutral, any other color is hot. You can mark them permanently at both ends and use them how you want but I bet neither end is marked . I know the end in the switch box is not marked.
Bill D

Pictures show only the wiring on the cyclone as it came from Oneida 12 years ago. I will check the wire colors inside the outlet to see if a hot leg is white causing confusion to the HVAC guy.

[Paul F Franklin]

Frank,

Take a step by step approach:

0. Be safe! If you aren't comfortable performing the following, just call an electrician.

1. Start at the sub panel. Measure across the two terminals of the two pole breaker controlling the DC circuit. You should measure close to 240 volts with the breaker on. If you don't, try resetting the breaker. If you still don't, then you have a bad breaker. If the DC circuit doesn't go to a two pole breaker, you need either need to install one, or run it to two single pole breakers in adjoining slots and install a breaker tie bar that joins the two breaker handles (A piece of stiff wire that fits through the holes in the handles works), effectively creating a two pole breaker. While you are here, make sure (with the breaker off!) that the terminal screws securing the wires to the breaker are nice and tight, and that the breaker is fully seated in the panel.

2. If you have 240 volts at the breaker, move to the receptacle for the DC. Check across the two hot terminals of the receptacle for 240 volts. If you don't have it, you have a bad connection or break in the wiring between the sub panel and the receptacle. If you do, carry on.

3. Measure across L1 and L3 at the contactor (switch box). You should measure 240 volts there. If you don't, you have a bad connection or break in the wiring between the receptacle and the switch box.

I believe you will find the problem at one of the above steps.

[Stan Coryell]

"If the DC circuit doesn't go to a two pole breaker, you need either need to install one, or run it to two single pole breakers in adjoining slots and install a breaker tie bar that joins the two breaker handles (A piece of stiff wire that fits through the holes in the handles works), effectively creating a two pole breaker. "

I would guess this what was already done. I don't believe this meets code. The reason being, if there is a fault on one phase, only one phase will trip. A 2 pole breaker has an internal common trip and should be used.

[Frank Martin]

I tried to run cyclone by connecting to another 230V outlet. It did start. I turned off quickly as I had disconnected it from ducting. Tried turning on again right afterwards, this time no response. I think my problem
is the wiring of the dedicated circuit. I will check again after that problem
is fixed.

Thank you for helping me troubleshoot this.

[Frank Martin]

I am now able start the cyclone consistently on another circuit. So, it is definitely the wiring problem created during the AC install on the original circuit. Thanks again for the help in troubleshooting.

[Paul F Franklin]

I am now able start the cyclone consistently on another circuit. So, it is definitely the wiring problem created during the AC install on the original circuit. Thanks again for the help in troubleshooting.

Good to hear! Let us know what you find.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thermal overload on the motor tripped?

Did you actually measure 240 volts at the motor or did you measure to ground?

Regards, Rod