Boss vs Thunder

[Jed Forbis]

Hello All!
I am woodworker who has found that laser etching brings in a good bit of business. I bought a 5.5watt diode laser on a lark and it paid for itself with the first month (Genmitsu LE-5040). Now I am looking to up my game and transition to a CO2 laser that will increase my productivity. I have narrowed my search to 2 companies based on budget and needs. Here are my needs:



Under $5000 (new business, still growing)
Uses Lightburn (love the software, could learn Coral, just don't have the time)
Minimum of 20" x 14" bed (I etch a lot of handmade serving board)
Need a pass-through for larger items
Minimum of 40watt (looking for much faster burn times)


I don't want to wade through the Chinese / EBay jungle. With all the horror stories out there, I want to spend the little bit extra and purchase something with lifetime support from a reputable company (even if they are still Chinese lasers).
With all that said, I have landed on either Boss Laser or Thunder Laser. Both companies come with a large following that speak highly of their products and services. Both companies offer a lifetime warranty and seem to really stand by their products.
For the Boss, I am looking at the Boss LS-1416 w/ the upgraded table size (14"x20").
For the Thunder, I am looking at the Mini-60.
On the stare and compare, Thunder has a slightly larger working area (24"x16"), but is a 40watt laser and no moving Z table. The Boss comes with a 50watt laser and the adjustable Z table, but the slightly smaller working space. But, other than those differences, they seem to run fairly parallel.
I would love some real world user's advice. As a fledgling company, this is a large expense and I really want to get this one right. Also, if there is an even better setup that hits the mark, I would love to hear it!
Thank you all in advance for your time :)

[Steve Utick]

Hello All!
I am woodworker who has found that laser etching brings in a good bit of business. I bought a 5.5watt diode laser on a lark and it paid for itself with the first month (Genmitsu LE-5040). Now I am looking to up my game and transition to a CO2 laser that will increase my productivity. I have narrowed my search to 2 companies based on budget and needs. Here are my needs:



Under $5000 (new business, still growing)
Uses Lightburn (love the software, could learn Coral, just don't have the time)
Minimum of 20" x 14" bed (I etch a lot of handmade serving board)
Need a pass-through for larger items
Minimum of 40watt (looking for much faster burn times)


I don't want to wade through the Chinese / EBay jungle. With all the horror stories out there, I want to spend the little bit extra and purchase something with lifetime support from a reputable company (even if they are still Chinese lasers).
With all that said, I have landed on either Boss Laser or Thunder Laser. Both companies come with a large following that speak highly of their products and services. Both companies offer a lifetime warranty and seem to really stand by their products.
For the Boss, I am looking at the Boss LS-1416 w/ the upgraded table size (14"x20").
For the Thunder, I am looking at the Mini-60.
On the stare and compare, Thunder has a slightly larger working area (24"x16"), but is a 40watt laser and no moving Z table. The Boss comes with a 50watt laser and the adjustable Z table, but the slightly smaller working space. But, other than those differences, they seem to run fairly parallel.
I would love some real world user's advice. As a fledgling company, this is a large expense and I really want to get this one right. Also, if there is an even better setup that hits the mark, I would love to hear it!
Thank you all in advance for your time :)

I've never personally worked on a Thunder laser, but know people that I trust that have one and are very happy with it. I personally have a BOSS laser machine, in addition to a couple of others. In reality, if I had it to do over again, I would not buy the BOSS machine. In my opinion, the build quality on them is not really that great.

A couple of suggestions on your selections. I'd really seriously look at the Thunder Nova 24. I know it's a bit more money, but it's a much better machine than the Mini-60. I'd call Thunder and do some negotiating with them on price. The Nova 24 has hybrid servo motors, which will allow you to do much faster engraving than the Mini-60 will, as it's purely stepper based. Also, the Mini-60 only comes with a 3000 "Chiller" which is really no more than a water pump with a reservoir. It has no cooling circuit in it at all, so doesn't maintain as good of temperature control as the 5000 that comes with the Nova 24. If you're looking at the camera setup for LightBurn, do yourself a favor and buy it directly from LightBurn. It's the same camera that Thunder sells, but not at their big mark-up on it.

[Jed Forbis]

Thank you Steve,
Already have the camera on the way (I also saw the $300 markup). I have ran across some videos where people take issue with Boss's build quality. My starting point was Thunder, but on paper, Boss comes close....

[Kev Williams]

I just checked out the mini-24-- nice that it has servo motors, but I notice the max speed is only 1000mm/sec. The following are ***just my opinions*** based on my experiences, but putting servo's on a 1000mm/sec machine seems like a waste of servo motors. My 1390 Triumph's controller allows me to run it at 1000mm/sec, which I've done. The problem I found, is that my 80w RECI glass DC-fired tube can't fire fast enough at high speeds to render a decent mark. Even at 700mm/sec the engraving quality noticeably drops. IMO, speaking mechanically, if my big 1390 is capable of running at 1000mm/sec, ANY Chinese laser is. Therefore, IMO, the main reason glass fitted laser machines typically "come with" a 500mm/sec max speed has nothing to do with mechanical capability, and everything to do with engraving quality. I do a lot of small engraving on black anodized ski lift panels I build. Black anodized aluminum can be finicky with regards to the power applied, more power=whiter markings, less power=grayer to bluer markings. At high speeds, this issue becomes a noticeable problem, where the long sections of, for example, the tops of "T"s and bottoms of "L"s are bright white, but the thin vertical lines are gray. At 500mm/sec speeds my DC Triumph's engraving quality of .1" high text is equal to any of my three RF machines. But not so at 600mm/sec, the quality starts to falter, and just gets worse when going even faster...

However, wood and leather for example, these are pretty 'forgiving' materials to laser, and I routinely run them at 700mm/sec with good results :)

I've spent 7 years engraving with my big Triumph and have learned how glass lasers work- or not. At least mine, anyway ;) -- I'm not wanting to steer anyone away from any particular machines, but I would suggest before laying down serious coin for what's supposed to be a 2x faster than typical machine, to think thru your needs and expectations, and maybe consider asking the manufacturer or seller for samples.

[Bert Kemp]

Just for the heck of it you should take a look at Rabbit Laser USA , Rock solid build. A+ support. take a look.

[Steve Utick]

I just checked out the mini-24-- nice that it has servo motors, but I notice the max speed is only 1000mm/sec. The following are ***just my opinions*** based on my experiences, but putting servo's on a 1000mm/sec machine seems like a waste of servo motors. My 1390 Triumph's controller allows me to run it at 1000mm/sec, which I've done. The problem I found, is that my 80w RECI glass DC-fired tube can't fire fast enough at high speeds to render a decent mark. Even at 700mm/sec the engraving quality noticeably drops. IMO, speaking mechanically, if my big 1390 is capable of running at 1000mm/sec, ANY Chinese laser is. Therefore, IMO, the main reason glass fitted laser machines typically "come with" a 500mm/sec max speed has nothing to do with mechanical capability, and everything to do with engraving quality. I do a lot of small engraving on black anodized ski lift panels I build. Black anodized aluminum can be finicky with regards to the power applied, more power=whiter markings, less power=grayer to bluer markings. At high speeds, this issue becomes a noticeable problem, where the long sections of, for example, the tops of "T"s and bottoms of "L"s are bright white, but the thin vertical lines are gray. At 500mm/sec speeds my DC Triumph's engraving quality of .1" high text is equal to any of my three RF machines. But not so at 600mm/sec, the quality starts to falter, and just gets worse when going even faster...

However, wood and leather for example, these are pretty 'forgiving' materials to laser, and I routinely run them at 700mm/sec with good results :)

I've spent 7 years engraving with my big Triumph and have learned how glass lasers work- or not. At least mine, anyway ;) -- I'm not wanting to steer anyone away from any particular machines, but I would suggest before laying down serious coin for what's supposed to be a 2x faster than typical machine, to think thru your needs and expectations, and maybe consider asking the manufacturer or seller for samples.


One of the biggest issues I have with BOSS is their gantry. The head and everything is fairly beefy, which in my opinion helps cause some of the problems with it. Trying to speed up and slow down that much mass isn't easy, and exasperates the problem with trying to do anything "Fast" The head on the Thunder machines is smaller and lighter. I know a couple of people with Thunder machines, and they perform pretty well at faster speeds. They appear to be a fairly well built and performing machine for the money. Granted, they won't hold a candle to a good RF fired servo laser, but for the money, starting out, I think the Thunder machines are a good compromise.

[Cary Falk]

I bought a Thunder Laser Nova 35 a couple of months ago. I haven't had a lot of play time on it but I am very happy with the Laser and the Customer Service.

[Jed Forbis]

Bert, I looked into Rabbit, but it doesn't look like they work with Lightburn, but their machines seem very solid.
Thanks for all the input, I will use it on my pending purchase (leaning toward Thunder at this point)!

[Bert Kemp]

Right Lightburn doesn't work with Letro but the rabbits work with corel, inkscape, sketchup , draftsight and others .
Bert, I looked into Rabbit, but it doesn't look like they work with Lightburn, but their machines seem very solid.
Thanks for all the input, I will use it on my pending purchase (leaning toward Thunder at this point)!

[Steve Krahn]

The Rabbit SD-XX-6040 has a Ruida controller. I have the QX-80-1290 with the Ruida controller and use Lightburn.

[Rich Harman]

The Nova 24 has hybrid servo motors, which will allow you to do much faster engraving than the Mini-60 will, as it's purely stepper based.

Two points about hybrid servos;

First, the ones that I have seen are not actually servos, they are steppers with encoders on them. No speed advantage there that I am aware of, and I am skeptical that there is any real advantage at all.

Second, the limiting factor in engraving speeds for glass tube machines is the response time of the tube, not the speed of the motors. If you want fast engraving, you need an RF tube machine like a Trotec or Epilog.

[Rich Harman]

... putting servo's on a 1000mm/sec machine seems like a waste of servo motors. My 1390 Triumph's controller allows me to run it at 1000mm/sec, which I've done. The problem I found, is that my 80w RECI glass DC-fired tube can't fire fast enough at high speeds to render a decent mark. Even at 700mm/sec the engraving quality noticeably drops. IMO, speaking mechanically, if my big 1390 is capable of running at 1000mm/sec, ANY Chinese laser is. Therefore, IMO, the main reason glass fitted laser machines typically "come with" a 500mm/sec max speed has nothing to do with mechanical capability, and everything to do with engraving quality.

I've also run my machine at 1,000 mm/sec, but 800 mm/sec was the fastest reliable speed where it would never miss a step. Way too fast for good engraving though. Too many stray dots.

200 - 400 mm/sec is a good range for my machine, much of the time the lower speed is actually faster because it spends less time ramping up and down.

Servos on a glass tube machine serves no purpose, unless they are accompanied by linear encoders. Then the purpose they serve is not speed but accuracy - a stepper that utilizes a linear encoder would provide the same accuracy. I don't know of any glass tube machines that use a linear encoder.

[Bert Kemp]

I agree with Rich I run my Rabbit 350 to 400 and get great engravings. If you need speed then spend 15K or more for a Trotec or Epilog , But for 5 to 8 K for a Rabbit , Boss or Thunder then your gonna have to go a little slower.jmo

[John Stegenga]

I've a friend with an Aeon... can do 1200mms... but how do you get a good dark engraving on maple or baltic birch at 350mm/s?? Every time I see him run it goes maybe 170mm/s?


I agree with Rich I run my Rabbit 350 to 400 and get great engravings. If you need speed then spend 15K or more for a Trotec or Epilog , But for 5 to 8 K for a Rabbit , Boss or Thunder then your gonna have to go a little slower.jmo

[Bert Kemp]

I've a friend with an Aeon... can do 1200mms... but how do you get a good dark engraving on maple or baltic birch at 350mm/s?? Every time I see him run it goes maybe 170mm/s?


what power tube does he have and is it truly that power. If he can't get a good engraving on baltic birch at 350 it proabaly a 40 watt tube putting out maybe 30, 35 watts.

[John Stegenga]

it's an 80 watt tube - he showed me the tube in the back that says it's rated 100w.
but he's doing like 170mm/s and 27% power on the cutting board he let me make. Faster than the glowforge I have, for sure! :)

John

[Bert Kemp]

whys he running the power so low no wonder he's at 170mmps. bump the power up and speed it up
how long is his tube?

[John Lifer]

One of the things that I've noticed with my laser is that very thin lines just do not engrave well over about 250 to 300mm/s. I run my 1390 Ray fine at a max of 400. I could probably make it go 500 or so, but I'd have to watch it way closer on a lot of things.
I can watch it and it will try to fire, but moving 400mm/s and a thin line just doesn't give it time to do anything but touch the surface. Slow it down and it works pretty well on thin stuff.
Dark engraving? A lot of times I have to make two passes, and even then, the laser burns deep but doesn't leave a char. (which comes off anyway if exposed to the elements)

[Bert Kemp]

To get a little darker take it out of focus a little. Not sure by what you consider thin lines. anything in my engravings that is hairline I vector engrave.

[Rich Harman]

Baltic Birch doesn't really engrave very dark. Someone makes a product that you spray on to darken it up - never used myself.

[Jerome Stanek]

it's an 80 watt tube - he showed me the tube in the back that says it's rated 100w.
but he's doing like 170mm/s and 27% power on the cutting board he let me make. Faster than the glowforge I have, for sure! :)

John And probable more dependable and better made. I have been following the Glowforge forum and they sure have a lot of problems and the mods close the threads before you know the outcome. Isn't it so nice to do most of the support through E mail that may get read in a day or 2.

[John Stegenga]

I dunno - keep the tube working longer? I'd guess the tube is over 3 feet / 3.5 feet?
What settings do you use, if I might ask? I'm gonna go smoke cigars with him saturday.

[John Stegenga]

I'm just a hobby guy. Friend is too, but he's got money like I got debt.. :) so yeah, I'm on lens 2 and lid cable 3, in 2 years with the glowforge..

And probable more dependable and better made. I have been following the Glowforge forum and they sure have a lot of problems and the mods close the threads before you know the outcome. Isn't it so nice to do most of the support through E mail that may get read in a day or 2.

[Bert Kemp]

I dunno - keep the tube working longer? I'd guess the tube is over 3 feet / 3.5 feet?
What settings do you use, if I might ask? I'm gonna go smoke cigars with him saturday.

I'd measure the tube length , an 80 watt tube is going to be a little over 4 feet long and a little over 3" in Dia. If its 3 and half like you think its a 40 watt tube or less. That half of the 80 watt.

[John Stegenga]

Yeah I will - there is an extender cover sticking out the side... the tube is big around, and i saw a label on it with a power graph saying it was 100w tube, but the maker of the machine sets the controller to 80? not sure that makes sense, that's just what I remember....

[Rich Harman]

...label on it with a power graph saying it was 100w tube, but the maker of the machine sets the controller to 80? not sure that makes sense, that's just what I remember....

Most tubes will have a max tested power, and then there is the recommended max power for long life. The best way to make sure you are not over-driving the tube is to use an ammeter. The controller settings are nearly meaningless.

The power setting you set in the software tells the laser power supply how much power to send to the tube - but, the power supply itself needs to be adjusted so that the power requested matches the actual output. I have yet to see a Chinese laser that was set up correctly from the factory. With an ammeter you know exactly how the tube is being driven. Setting the software to 80% is a good approximation that probably won't overdrive the tube.

No laser should be without an ammeter. If you don't have one you can buy one and install it yourself, it is not difficult. It needs to be one that measures from 0 to 50 milliamps - and it needs to be analog (with a needle) not digital.

[Kev Williams]

The 80w RECI in my 1390 Triumph has a tested-wattage of 110, and the controller is supposedly limited to "98%", which is probably around 32mA and that 110 watts, but I'll never know! :D

A milliamp meter really is a necessity with this things. I've never gone past 27mA when cutting, which on my machine is 72% power. I've engraved at 75% power a couple of times, but not for long. My machine turned 7 years old last month, and I'm sure not overdriving the tube has helped with the longevity...

[John Stegenga]

Hmm I'll mention that to him. where would one install such a thing?
PS to the OP.... sorry for the hijack.

[Rich Harman]

My machine turned 7 years old last month, and I'm sure not overdriving the tube has helped with the longevity...

I think my Reci 80W is nine years old now. I haven't been using it much lately but it appears to be the same as when new. I did test the power a year or so ago and it was still putting out over 80W.

I run mine at 24 to 26 mA max.

[Rich Harman]

Hmm I'll mention that to him. where would one install such a thing?


The standard place to mount them is in a hole on the machine enclosure near the LCD control panel. Doesn't really matter where, personal preference.

What does matter, and is extremely important, is that the meter be put in series with the tube on the negative side.

The positive side of the tube, the wire that comes out of the laser power supply is at tens of thousands of volts. Once the energy passes through the tube and comes out the other side the voltage is at near zero. You install the meter between the negative side of the tube and ground.

[John Stegenga]

ok. I'll tell him. he reads the hell out of books and the internet, but never posts anything. :)
John

[Bert Kemp]

amp meters are cheap and pretty easy to install, lots of videos on how to do it.

[John Stegenga]

amp meters are cheap and pretty easy to install, lots of videos on how to do it.
Ok - to answer one of the questions you had - the tube is 4' long for sure and it is marked as rated 100w.
So - how do I tell him to make a dark engrave on a maple board or some such at a higher speed than 170mm/s?
he'd be impressed that a glowforger figgerd it out... :) LOL.

[Bert Kemp]

Ok - to answer one of the questions you had - the tube is 4' long for sure and it is marked as rated 100w.
So - how do I tell him to make a dark engrave on a maple board or some such at a higher speed than 170mm/s?
he'd be impressed that a glowforger figgerd it out... :) LOL.


Like I said before bump up the power to about 75% speed to about 325 to 350 and take it out of focus. You should get a nice tan to brown color.446923

[John Stegenga]

Freeking great day for a cigar this afternoon...
Anyway thanks - we'll give that a try tomorrow. Can't see the picture, by the way but...

[Bert Kemp]

Freeking great day for a cigar this afternoon...
Anyway thanks - we'll give that a try tomorrow. Can't see the picture, by the way but...


You need to be a contributor to see the picture's , its only 6 bucks a year and I find for the knowledge and help I get here its the best bargain around.The pictures I posted are 2 engravings I did on my 60 watt laser at 75% pwr and 325 speed

[Robert Mangas]

...I find for the knowledge and help I get here its the best bargain around.

Me too, and I don't even own a laser.

[Bert Kemp]

Me too, and I don't even own a laser.


Congrates on becoming a contributor , now you can see the pictures I posted.OOps I thought you were the cigar smoker LOL the one I'm trying to help.