New Shop - Need Ideas

[Alexander Young]

Hi everyone, we have a 40'x60' quonset barn that my wife and I are reconfiguring. My current question is how best to secure a ledger to the curved section of wall. I want to run LVL beams from the long outside wall across toward the middle of the barn so I don't have a support beam running down the middle of my shop like I do in my current one. Can I just cut wedges and secure them behind a ledger to make it plumb to the ground? Or do I need to do something different. I have also considered building a drop-wall that would support the LVL beams, but that creates an awkward "dead space" that I would have to find a workaround for to best utilize the space. I'd rather not have anything there. The "ribs" of the barn are laminate wood beams that are about 2"x6" and are round roughly 24" centers. The roof sheathing and shingles is attached directly to the beams. I've included a picture of where my new shop would be so you can see the curved section I'm referring to. Thank you!

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[Paul F Franklin]

Will the LVLs run all the way across to the other wall? What kind of load will be on the LVLs? My first thought is to lag screw a 2x6 in place as a ledger, after first ripping the top edge so it will be "level" when the ledger is screwed in place. That would certainly work for light loads. But if the LVLs will support a large load then you may need something beefier or even need to get an engineer involved.

[Alexander Young]

The LVLs will not span the entire width of the barn; only about 18'-20' maximum (the barn is 40' wide). I'll be sizing according to span tables to get the correct ones according to on center (OC) spacing. I don't plan on storing much on the ceiling. All my wood storage is in the walk-out "basement" of the barn.

[Mike Kees]

So you are trying to build a mezzanine off of one of the long walls ? What supports the other end ? In your first post you said you did not want a beam in the center of this shop, seems to me you are heading that way unless you support that side with a bearing wall. I would not use lag bolts, instead use GRK fasteners they are far stronger and I would use whatever width matches the depth of the LVL. Your idea of wedges to get the ledger plumb has a problem when it comes to fastening it to the existing arch ribs. It would be solider and stronger to cut the ledger top edge on an angle like Paul suggested. You can also laminate another layer of 2x material after the first is screwed to give yourself more bearing for the LVL. Here in Alberta floor trusses would be a cheaper option than LVL as well. I would also consider framing the other side as a bearing wall instead of supporting with a beam and posts. It would give you more wall space for cabinets or whatever in the center of your shop . it would also be easy to frame openings wherever needed.

[Alexander Young]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I am planning on building a four-walled shop inside of the barn. The shop will be about 18'x40' and the long dimension will run along the outside wall with the other wall along the middle of the barn. The ceiling joists will be sitting on those two walls. The front wall will be the front wall of the barn, and I will frame in a rear wall.

[Tom Bender]

When the wind blows it probably flexes the building some. Your new structure will probably resist that ok but you might want to fasten it a little better than normal so it doesn't loosen up.

[Alexander Young]

When the wind blows it probably flexes the building some. Your new structure will probably resist that ok but you might want to fasten it a little better than normal so it doesn't loosen up.

Good idea. I notice in my existing shop that when I close the door, the 10' front wall tends to flex a bit. In the new shop, I'm going to use 2x6" studs on 24" centers and brace them. I'll also brace the outside wall as well, though it will have a 30' (I re-measured the shop space and it's going to be 18'x30'). Thanks for the suggestion.

As far as insulation, I think I'm going to have sprayed foam insulation done to act as a wind barrier as well as insulation. I am also considering putting 1/2" hard foam insulation against the cement floor and tongue and groove plywood subfloor over top of that as the final floor. Does that sound reasonable? All of the walls will be 2"x6" except for the ceiling joists which will be the 9-1/2" I-joists.

[Bill McNiel]

Alexander,
This may very well come off a a "rant", in which case I apologize in advance. I recently had hand surgery on my right hand, as a result I can't do anything constructive except read and type with my "off" hand so I am responding to a post that I typically avoid due to professional requirements. I am a Registered Architect (a 5 year college program with 30% more credits per semester required than a typical student, 3 year apprenticeship at a ridiculous low wage and a total of 10 full days of licensing exams, who worked his way through school as a Journeyman Carpenter earned at age 19. I have spent my life designing and building stuff. Architects & Engineers exist for very good reasons, accepting A&E advice and acting upon said advice from an online woodworking forum is IMHO very foolish.

That said, I would put forth the following;
You need to employ a Structural Engineer or Registered Architect (the issue is more complicated than "span tables").
Are the existing footings sized to handle the new loads?
The second floor needs to be calculated to handle both Live & Dead Loads as do the loads that will be transferred to the Roof /Sidewall framing.
Regardless of your intent to not have heavy loads on the 2nd floor / Mezzanine the structure must meet Code and be designed to handle Dead, Live & Lateral Loads/Impacts.
IMHO sprayed foam insulation is a solid concept for blocking air infiltration and provide additional lateral rigidity.
Paul's suggestion to rip the sidewall ledgers to horizontal is a solid approach.

BTW - your Barn is drop dead gorgeous, we live and work in a 100 year old barn and yours is amazing. I would work hard to preserve the interior curved envelope feeling as it should nspire some interesting projects.

Hope I didn't offend - Bill

[Alexander Young]

Alexander,
This may very well come off a a "rant", in which case I apologize in advance. I recently had hand surgery on my right hand, as a result I can't do anything constructive except read and type with my "off" hand so I am responding to a post that I typically avoid due to professional requirements. I am a Registered Architect (a 5 year college program with 30% more credits per semester required than a typical student, 3 year apprenticeship at a ridiculous low wage and a total of 10 full days of licensing exams, who worked his way through school as a Journeyman Carpenter earned at age 19. I have spent my life designing and building stuff. Architects & Engineers exist for very good reasons, accepting A&E advice and acting upon said advice from an online woodworking forum is IMHO very foolish.

That said, I would put forth the following;
You need to employ a Structural Engineer or Registered Architect (the issue is more complicated than "span tables").
Are the existing footings sized to handle the new loads?
The second floor needs to be calculated to handle both Live & Dead Loads as do the loads that will be transferred to the Roof /Sidewall framing.
Regardless of your intent to not have heavy loads on the 2nd floor / Mezzanine the structure must meet Code and be designed to handle Dead, Live & Lateral Loads/Impacts.
IMHO sprayed foam insulation is a solid concept for blocking air infiltration and provide additional lateral rigidity.
Paul's suggestion to rip the sidewall ledgers to horizontal is a solid approach.

BTW - your Barn is drop dead gorgeous, we live and work in a 100 year old barn and yours is amazing. I would work hard to preserve the interior curved envelope feeling as it should nspire some interesting projects.

Hope I didn't offend - Bill

Bill,

No offense taken! Thank you for your input and advice. What do you mean when you say "I would work hard to preserve the interior curved envelope feeling..."? Unfortunately, it is not possible to leave the open space of the barn as it sits because there are horses over on the other side of the barn, and a couple of bats that get in, and the eaves are not sealed close to the ground, etc. There needs to be an enclosed, climate controlled area of the the barn to be used as a wood shop.

I will look into what it costs to have an architect or structural engineer weigh in on how best of attach the outer wall. The other thing I have considered, and am now leaning more toward, is to include the outer wall but not make it a structural component of the shop. Instead, I would use posts and an overhead beam to support the ceiling joists.

We are trying to make this barn work for us, because the alternative is to have someone take the barn down and actually build the structures we want on the property. This is definitely a compromise.

[Jim Becker]

I will look into what it costs to have an architect or structural engineer weigh in on how best of attach the outer wall. The other thing I have considered, and am now leaning more toward, is to include the outer wall but not make it a structural component of the shop. Instead, I would use posts and an overhead beam to support the ceiling joists.


It almost seems more practical to build a structure within a structure and take the q-hut walls out of play other than using the spray foam to insulate and stiffen the structure for weather. Bill's comments about ascertaining any impact on the floor/foundation is of merit--given the nature of the existing structure, I'm almost willing to bet that the floor was installed for convenience and what gets done with quick-up ag structures is often, um...just enough to do the job.

[Eugene Dixon]

The barn reminds me of the plane hangers near Elizabeth City NC. Beautiful structures that have incredible 'hanger' doors. One of them now houses a blimp manufacturing facility. Of course there are a few 'remains' from fires scattered around.

[Alexander Young]

It almost seems more practical to build a structure within a structure and take the q-hut walls out of play other than using the spray foam to insulate and stiffen the structure for weather. Bill's comments about ascertaining any impact on the floor/foundation is of merit--given the nature of the existing structure, I'm almost willing to bet that the floor was installed for convenience and what gets done with quick-up ag structures is often, um...just enough to do the job.

Actually, the floor is dirt and gravel currently. Before anything with the shop happens, I'm going to have a concrete floor poured everywhere except where the horse stables are. I'm thinking 6" floor.

As far as "more practical to build a structure within a structure and take the q-hut walls out of play..." I have been thinking about doing just that. I'm thinking the wall that shares the q-hut curved wall would use a post and beam to support the ceiling joists and not rely on the barn for any structural component at all. The outer wall would still be the outer wall of the shop, but the support post and beam would be doing all of the heavy lifting. The foam insulation would only be in the shop though. It wouldn't not extend up to the peak of the barn.

[Bill Dufour]

Climate? Wind and snow loads if any?
Bil lD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangar_One_(Mountain_View,_California)#Design_and_ construction

https://www.ncptt.nps.gov/blog/conducting-an-assessment-of-wooden-parabolic-arch-trusses-in-a-world-war-ii-blimp-hanger/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangar_One_(Mountain_View,_California)#Design_and_ construction)

[Alexander Young]

Climate? Wind and snow loads if any?
Bil lD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangar_One_(Mountain_View,_California)#Design_and_ construction

I live in west-central Ohio, so there isn't a whole lot of snow. The barn has been in place since at least the 1950s. The house has been there since the 1800s. We do get some wind periodically, and the barn does move a little bit with it. I can hear it creak when it's really gusting when I'm working in my current shop.

[Paul F Franklin]

If you're going to go the post and beam route, then think about pouring footings for the posts when/before having the floor poured.

[Bill McNiel]

Bill,

No offense taken! Thank you for your input and advice. What do you mean when you say "I would work hard to preserve the interior curved envelope feeling..."? Unfortunately, it is not possible to leave the open space of the barn as it sits because there are horses over on the other side of the barn, and a couple of bats that get in, and the eaves are not sealed close to the ground, etc. There needs to be an enclosed, climate controlled area of the the barn to be used as a wood shop.

I will look into what it costs to have an architect or structural engineer weigh in on how best of attach the outer wall. The other thing I have considered, and am now leaning more toward, is to include the outer wall but not make it a structural component of the shop. Instead, I would use posts and an overhead beam to support the ceiling joists.

We are trying to make this barn work for us, because the alternative is to have someone take the barn down and actually build the structures we want on the property. This is definitely a compromise.

Alexander,
Sorry for the delay in responding, there are many excuses but nothing that really validates the delay.

The "curved envelope" I referred to is created by the existing exterior wall. If you were to frame a somewhat independent structure with "drop down" walls that lovely curved feature would be hidden (it appears to me from your subsequent posts that you already get this). The use of post & beam support at perimeter would allow for the new structure while maximizing the floor area and maintaining the curve's visual impact.

I did a very rough sketch of a section in an attempt to clarify the concept but now understand that the Mezzanine will only exist over half the space. I show the floor joists as tying into the exterior framing members with a lap joint which will facilitate the creation of a horizontal shear diaphragm. Because the existing wall members are 24" OC you might consider adding infill joists to reduce the Tributary Area and corresponding joist & sheathing sizes. I put the FJs at 10' which I consider a somewhat optimal height for a shop and still provides approximately 9' clear height at the ridge line.

PM me if you want to discuss your project "one Barn Renovator to another". I re-retired on my birthday so I am NOT trying to secure a commission, I'm just trying to help a fellow Creeker who owns an outstanding structure.