Rob Cosman and Veritas Handplanes?

[Steve Mathews]

I really enjoy the videos put out by Rob Cosman. In a recent one about old versus new handplanes Veritas was conspicuously left out of the equation. It's hard to imagine that it was simply overlooked. Any reason for the snub?

[David Publicover]

I would expect it’s because he competes against them. Lie-Nielsen planes are pretty pricey in Canada so Veritas is often the brand his Wood River has to beat.

[Nathan Johnson]

He has explicitly stated that he will not (can't or won't?) comment on Veritas.
I don't know specifically why, but I'm sure we all have guesses.

[Brian Tymchak]

I would expect it’s because he competes against them. Lie-Nielsen planes are pretty pricey in Canada so Veritas is often the brand his Wood River has to beat.

I thought WoodRiver was Woodcraft's brand. Is Woodcraft featuring Cosman's tools?

[Dick Mahany]

I thought WoodRiver was Woodcraft's brand. Is Woodcraft featuring Cosman's tools?

Rob Cosman's site states to see Woodcraft's site in the US as he doesn't ship them here. I suspect there may little comparison between Wood River and Veritas.

[mike stenson]

I thought WoodRiver was Woodcraft's brand. Is Woodcraft featuring Cosman's tools?
I think he was a consultant, and is the Canadian distributor (like he used to be for Lie Nielsen)

[David Bassett]

Rob's company is the supplier of Woodriver planes in Canada. I'm not sure of the full relationship he has with Woodcraft. He's said he was hired as a consultant to develop the planes by Woodcraft, so there is / was some relationship. I'm not sure if there are any other Woodriver tools he has.

At the Toronto (Virtual) Wood Show he was pushing IBC chisels. I vaguely remember some Woodriver/Woodcraft and IBC collaboration being implied on a forum. Given the nature of contract manufacturing in China, it may be no more than they source similar products from the same factories.

After listening to several of his presentations this weekend, two traits stood out. First, he is really good at demonstrating and explaining things. A great teacher. Second, there is a strong undercurrent, even explicit at times, that he is showing the one "true" technique and using the "best" available tool. Usually accompanied with a we stock the only tool(s) you'll ever really want in our store message. His message would have been easier for me to accept if he'd presented his techniques & tools as "something that works well for me" or as "something that consistently works well for my students" while leaving open the possibility of alternate approaches.

(In contrast, the "Vic & Steve" show was equally informative and more enjoyable to me. Vic Tesolin and Steve Der-Garabedian are friends who formed a not really ready for primetime comedy duo and presented everything as "this is one way to do this you might not have thought of" or "this is quick and easy and good enough for some situations". By leaving open the possibility of alternatives they left me feeling they were expanding, instead of contracting, my knowledge.)

[Frank Pratt]

Rob's company is the supplier of Woodriver planes in Canada. I'm not sure of the full relationship he has with Woodcraft. He's said he was hired as a consultant to develop the planes by Woodcraft, so there is / was some relationship. I'm not sure if there are any other Woodriver tools he has.

At the Toronto (Virtual) Wood Show he was pushing IBC chisels. I vaguely remember some Woodriver/Woodcraft and IBC collaboration being implied on a forum. Given the nature of contract manufacturing in China, it may be no more than they source similar products from the same factories.

After listening to several of his presentations this weekend, two traits stood out. First, he is really good at demonstrating and explaining things. A great teacher. Second, there is a strong undercurrent, even explicit at times, that he is showing the one "true" technique and using the "best" available tool. Usually accompanied with a we stock the only tool(s) you'll ever really want in our store message. His message would have been easier for me to accept if he'd presented his techniques & tools as "something that works well for me" or as "something that consistently works well for my students" while leaving open the possibility of alternate approaches.

(In contrast, the "Vic & Steve" show was equally informative and more enjoyable to me. Vic Tesolin and Steve Der-Garabedian are friends who formed a not really ready for primetime comedy duo and presented everything as "this is one way to do this you might not have thought of" or "this is quick and easy and good enough for some situations". By leaving open the possibility of alternatives they left me feeling they were expanding, instead of contracting, my knowledge.)

I watched Rob's presentation at a Calgary wood show many years ago. He was the Canadian distributor for Lie Nielsen then & I bought a rabbit block plane from him at that show. He is a very good teacher, explains things well, and has the chops to back up what he talks about.

But like you, David, I was really put off by his attitude that the tools he uses and the way he uses them, are really the only acceptable way for things to be. I still occasionally watch his videos and the content is mostly very good. But he still has that same attitude that just spoils it for me.

[Frederick Skelly]

I have Wood River, LV and LN planes in my shop. I'm a HUGE fan of LV. But if Cosman is the Canadian distributor for Wood River (or whatever he calls it), I wouldn't expect him to endorse or discuss the competition. And if he comes on too strong for "his" brand, that's a business decision, good or bad. He isnt the only one - it happens on a carving site I frequent, and probably other places too.

I've tried his online classes and agree he's a pretty good teacher. I just choose to ignore his sales pitches.

YMMV.
Fred

[Richard Hutchings]

So it's not just me. Yeah I love watching him but always feel a little put off by the folded arm thing. He's a great teacher, just a little too full of himself.

[Rafael Herrera]

He's not in my list of youtubers I seek to learn something interesting. Take a look at this video https://youtu.be/PSPARIqbeZA, his claims about the use of a Bailey no. 4 smoother are just nonsensical to me.

[David Publicover]

I like Rob’s videos and have found them very useful. I actually find him pretty down to earth as he doesn’t always edit out a mistake. I appreciate that he points it out and then shows you how to fix it. I need good mistake fixing techniques!
I don’t know Rob but I met him years ago and found him to be very approachable. I do have one of his saws and find it to be a well made and accurate tool. I also have a LV saw along with many other LV tools. It’s great to be able to support them both.

[Jerome Andrieux]

He's not in my list of youtubers I seek to learn something interesting. Take a look at this video https://youtu.be/PSPARIqbeZA, his claims about the use of a Bailey no. 4 smoother are just nonsensical to me.

In the meantime Paul Sellers only swears by the number four. It may just be some passive aggressive marketing.

I have found more material in Mike Siemsen’s rare videos that in Rob Cosman’s plethora. And he doesn’t even name a brand. I don’t think Paul Sellers encourages anyone to buy new stuff either. Different audience demographics maybe.

[Larry Frank]

These type of discussions in the hand tool arena are always interesting. People become very sensitive about everything. I think some of the posts show a high degree of personal involvement.

[mike stenson]

I also think that Rob's gotta cover the time/effort to make these things somehow. If that's sales on the side, ok. Really, there's not a huge functional difference in any bench plane out there and the technology goes back literally to the romans. As I recall, his early instructional videos were pretty much LN ads. I still learned things from them.

[Bryan Lisowski]

I like Rob, I know my skills with hand tools have improved a lot by watching and following his technique. I have no problem with him using his videos as an infomercial. He makes the tools, he should be able to sell in a method that works for his business. I find it better that he is selling his stuff, rather than him taking tools or sponsorships like a lot of content creators, who aren't subject experts and are all over the map, based on who is paying the freight.

[Jason Buresh]

He's not in my list of youtubers I seek to learn something interesting. Take a look at this video https://youtu.be/PSPARIqbeZA, his claims about the use of a Bailey no. 4 smoother are just nonsensical to me.

I probably dont have enough merit to comment on this, but I have to say i think that is a bit of a weak argument. Im not going to list my no 4 for sale and rush out to buy a 4-1/2 because i have man hands. I dont find my no 4 that uncomfortable.

I respect Rob and appreciate what he does for the veterans, but i disagree with him here.

[Pete Taran]

I think it's bunk. If 4s were made for kids, and 4 1/2s made for adults, then why are there so few 4 1/2s? I mean once all the schools had an army of 4s, there would not need to be anymore produced. Ergo, there would be 10 4 1/2s to every 4 you see in the wild.

In actuality, you see 100 4s before you see a single 4 1/2. Perhaps all the 150# adults with medium to large hands loved them so much that they were buried with them when they passed. (that's Cosman logic there).

[Jason Lester]

I took one of his classes a few years ago. It was a great experience and he's a good instructor. He definitely stressed that his tools were the best. I did buy his saw and marking knife prior to the class since I needed both anyway. The saw is great, but I don't care for the marking knife. I used my Veritas plane and Knew fretsaw though. The really weird thing I thought was that he wrapped his handles with hockey tape, must be a Canadian thing? He also uses a ballpoint pen for marking, which seems odd.

[Bill Carey]

I took one of his classes a few years ago. It was a great experience and he's a good instructor. He definitely stressed that his tools were the best. I did buy his saw and marking knife prior to the class since I needed both anyway. The saw is great, but I don't care for the marking knife. I used my Veritas plane and Knew fretsaw though. The really weird thing I thought was that he wrapped his handles with hockey tape, must be a Canadian thing? He also uses a ballpoint pen for marking, which seems odd.

No comment on the pen, but the hockey tapering works great. I have some 4" clamps with small handles that were pretty hard to tighten before I taped them up..

[Jim Koepke]

These type of discussions in the hand tool arena are always interesting. People become very sensitive about everything. I think some of the posts show a high degree of personal involvement.

Rob used to participate on SMC. He was pitching his IBC blades a bit too much. My memory is a bit fuzzy on what he claimed his connection was to Veritas blades. That caused a bit of a caustic situation. He would insist the blade was the most important part of the plane so therefore all one needed to turn an old plane into a new LN was one of his blades.

My #4-1/2 is a cherished plane but my #3s & #4s are used more often.

People become sensitive about things in which they have invested time and/or money. We develop personal involvement with our beliefs. Some find ways of doing something that do not make sense, yet the method works for them. Maybe it is just their belief making it work. It is almost a religious experience which brings on "a high degree of personal involvement."

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

I have no evidence to back this up, but if I had to guess i think it was a marketing strategy. The 4-1/2 came out in the 1884 I believe, and the #4 had been around since 1869. I have a coffin smoother that has a wider iron than my no 4, so maybe Stanley produced a little wider iron plane to try and convert some stubborn craftsmen that were bent on using wooden planes.

Patrick Leach also makes a convincing argument that these were competition ro the infill planes across the pond.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I don’t think Paul Sellers encourages anyone to buy new stuff either. Different audience demographics maybe.

I would like to think that it is his preferred style or how he works and that the demographics are based on what he does as opposed to Paul choosing a style to get to some specific demographic.

[chris carter]

I’ve watched an awful lot of Rob Cosman videos. His talent is ridiculous. He is also a somewhat shameless salesman. That’s not a criticism because he can do what he wants in his videos – I’m a business owner and you gotta make money. His biases in gear are rather obtuse, and I do appreciate that he acknowledges it, but it’s so over the top that I pretty much ignore any recommendations he makes. This morning a block plane shootout showed up in my youtube feed and before hitting play I said “He’s going to recommend Wood River, LN will get a consolation prize, and Veritas will not be included because it will come in as good or maybe even better so he’ll exclude that bit of competition.” I was 100% correct.

As a teacher he explains things REALLY well in a manner that even a total newbie can clearly understand. But I also realized this morning that I’ve never actually learned anything from him despite watching him from my birth in hand toolery. I think that’s because he’s obsessed with chasing the absolute best technical precision possible, even if it’s overly complicated. I have no interest in spending an hour making a single dovetail joint, by way of example. Yes, his dovetails are immaculate, but I can easily find other woodworking masters who make dovetails, or joint boards, etc., in a 10th the time and I cannot tell any difference in the finished product. I’m not saying that trying to find the holy grail in technical precision isn’t a worthy goal if that’s what someone enjoys, just to be clear. Everyone has to find what makes them happy in woodworking and then just do that, whatever it is.

[mike stenson]

No comment on the pen, but the hockey tapering works great. I have some 4" clamps with small handles that were pretty hard to tighten before I taped them up..

Yea, the hockey tape is brilliant for adding a lot of grip easily and quickly. Especially if you're at all sweaty (an issue here most of the year).

[Warren Mickley]

I think it's bunk. If 4s were made for kids, and 4 1/2s made for adults, then why are there so few 4 1/2s? I mean once all the schools had an army of 4s, there would not need to be anymore produced. Ergo, there would be 10 4 1/2s to every 4 you see in the wild.

In actuality, you see 100 4s before you see a single 4 1/2. Perhaps all the 150# adults with medium to large hands loved them so much that they were buried with them when they passed. (that's Cosman logic there).

There is so much bunk that it is hard to sort out what is misconception, what is deception, what is hype, and what is ignorance. Maybe all come into play.

[chris carter]

I honestly thought he was joking about No. 4's being made for kids. I mean, nobody can reasonably take that rationale seriously.

[Pete Taran]

Sure didn't seem like he was joking. He even went on to describe why it was that way with kids when the grow up going back to what they knew from technical school. Flights of fancy

[Jim Koepke]

Cosman is likely making as much money selling as he is teaching. Almost everyone already has a #4. The salesperson is trying to convince them what they really need is a shiny new #4-1/2.

Of course the people who are paying him to push their product is going to be the maker of the best one to be found.

Money can do a lot to mold a person's opinion.

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

Cosman is likely making as much money selling as he is teaching. Almost everyone already has a #4. The salesperson is trying to convince them what they really need is a shiny new #4-1/2.

Of course the people who are paying him to push their product is going to be the maker of the best one to be found.

Money can do a lot to mold a person's opinion.

jtk

I did not see where he made a convincing argument where the 4-1/2 is better than the 4. Instead there was a baseless claim trying to appeal to bravado and manliness than actual function. If you are still using a number 4 you are either adolescent or less of a man is what he made it sound like.

He did a good job highlighting the feature differences between the 2, but did not explain why these features are superior. I am assuming that a wider iron would be an advantage when working larger panels. Thicker castings are a plus, and extra weight can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on what you are doing.

I guess i am disappointed that a man with as much experience and knowledge as him did not go more in depth how the 4-1/2 would be a useful addition to my tool kit.

[mike stenson]

Personally, I think a wider iron is just a wider iron. You're either going to make more passes, or have more resistance per pass. Your choice. To me, it's a horse a piece.

[Jim Koepke]

I did not see where he made a convincing argument where the 4-1/2 is better than the 4. Instead there was a baseless claim trying to appeal to bravado and manliness than actual function. If you are still using a number 4 you are either adolescent or less of a man is what he made it sound like.

He did a good job highlighting the feature differences between the 2, but did not explain why these features are superior. I am assuming that a wider iron would be an advantage when working larger panels. Thicker castings are a plus, and extra weight can be an advantage or disadvantage depending on what you are doing.

I guess i am disappointed that a man with as much experience and knowledge as him did not go more in depth how the 4-1/2 would be a useful addition to my tool kit.


Personally, I think a wider iron is just a wider iron. You're either going to make more passes, or have more resistance per pass. Your choice. To me, it's a horse a piece.

My #4-1/2 usually comes out when smoothing a board slightly wider than 2".

Many people get along fine with a smoother, jack and jointer. My #4-1/2 could possibly be the plane most likely to be replaced in my kit. (Anyone wanting to sell their type 13 or earlier Stanley/Bailey #4-1/2 in order to buy a new Woodriver #4-1/2 send me a PM with the information and a reasonable price.)

If Cosman was telling everyone a #4 was the Bee's Knees a lot of listeners would likely go out and buy something on the used market. Finding a #4-1/2 in the used market is no where near as easy.

My finding a #4-1/2 in an antique mall during a time of a lot of driving up and down the west coast was a lucky find. It may have also been a curse. The sole is thin and it has been a finicky plane at times. At least the wood and hardware is worth more than what was paid for the plane at the time.

What about planes smaller than the #4? Are they all only for children?

Often a smaller plane is the right plane for 'delicate' work.

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

What about planes smaller than the #4? Are they all only for children?

jtk

I wish I would have been given a no 1 to play with in kindergarten. I could have smoothed out my desk.

[mike stenson]

Finding a #4-1/2 in the used market is no where near as easy.


Pretty much exactly why I don't possess one :) If I ran into one at a reasonable cost, I'd likely pick it up. But, I'd pick up another jack first.

[Jim Matthews]

Cosman is likely making as much money selling as he is teaching.

Money can do a lot to mold a person's opinion.

jtk

While we revere the bright lights guiding us in our hobby, few of them make a decent living. The only woodworkers making real money are Union trimmers for construction jobs. Cabinet shops are production zones where time lost means payroll is in jeopardy.

It's a *very* tough business.

[Derek Cohen]

Cosman does not tell everyone to purchase a #4 1/2; he tells everyone to purchase a #5 1/2.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Hennebury]

If you need someone to tell you what plane you need you don't need it.

[Jim Koepke]

If you need someone to tell you what plane you need you don't need it.

A good thought for many instances. Though sometimes a person might want to know advantages of one plane over another. Maybe they want to know the best plane for plowing grooves in drawer sides for installing the bottom. My opinion has changed on this over the years. At one time a Stanley #45 seemed to be the only plow plane one would need. Since then a #50 has come into my shop and the advantages of a smaller plow plane became known.

There really isn't a best smoother for everyone. Just like there isn't a best jointer for everyone.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

I was a bit confused by the conversation as well, Derek. Maybe I missed the video, but he seems to push a 5 1/2 as the end all plane size.

[mike stenson]

I was a bit confused by the conversation as well, Derek. Maybe I missed the video, but he seems to push a 5 1/2 as the end all plane size.

You're not really the only one. I just counted it as a complaint about a bit of sales pitch stuck into otherwise free media (ie, a commercial break).

[Mark Hennebury]

A good thought for many instances. Though sometimes a person might want to know advantages of one plane over another. Maybe they want to know the best plane for plowing grooves in drawer sides for installing the bottom. My opinion has changed on this over the years. At one time a Stanley #45 seemed to be the only plow plane one would need. Since then a

There really isn't a best smoother for everyone. Just like there isn't a best jointer for everyone.

jtk

Here you stated that " a #50 has come into my shop and the advantages of a smaller plow plane became known."
That statement tells me that you figured out the advantages yourself. That you understand the function and requirements and have the knowledge and experience to make judgements yourself.

Whereas when you watch a YouTube Guru pushing a product, they can convince you that whatever one they are getting paid to push is the best.
They will do slick demonstrations to "Prove" it. Leaving the adoring crowds suitably impressed. Upon scrutiny it becomes obvious that their testing methods are biased and dishonest, either through ignorance or design.
Of course no one believes that they are gullible enough to fall for that stuff. yet it is quite obvious that they do.

[lowell holmes]

When I need a tool, I go to the big box store, fondle the tools, and buy the one that pleases me. :)

[Jim Koepke]

When I need a tool, I go to the big box store, fondle the tools, and buy the one that pleases me. :)

Have you found any Multi-Planes at the big box stores?

How about a decent jointer plane? Any decent bench planes?


Here you stated that " a #50 has come into my shop and the advantages of a smaller plow plane became known."
That statement tells me that you figured out the advantages yourself. That you understand the function and requirements and have the knowledge and experience to make judgements yourself.

True, but it didn't happen until one was found in an antique store for a price that was hard to refuse. A newcomer to woodworking wouldn't be able to understand unless they have a friend or mentor at hand.

Another option for newbies is to ask on a forum like this possibly being given a link to an old post like > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251419

Besides, it is a fun pastime to spend other people's money.

jtk

[Bill Yacey]

I have a Veritas low angle jack plane; I see Woodriver has a low angle jack offering on the Woodcraft site, but I don't see the low angle listed on Cosman's site. I'm assuming Woodcrafts pricing is in U.S dollars; based on that, the Woodriver doesn't appear to be any cheaper than the Lee Valley Veritas.

[Jason Buresh]

I was a bit confused by the conversation as well, Derek. Maybe I missed the video, but he seems to push a 5 1/2 as the end all plane size.

There was a link to a youtube video posted where he claims the number 4 was a elementary school kids tool. And the 4-1/2 is a mans tool.

But normally yes, he pushes the 5-1/2

[Bill Yacey]

I think it's bunk. If 4s were made for kids, and 4 1/2s made for adults, then why are there so few 4 1/2s? I mean once all the schools had an army of 4s, there would not need to be anymore produced. Ergo, there would be 10 4 1/2s to every 4 you see in the wild.

In actuality, you see 100 4s before you see a single 4 1/2. Perhaps all the 150# adults with medium to large hands loved them so much that they were buried with them when they passed. (that's Cosman logic there). In the violin making world, using a larger plane than necessary is akin to driving brads with a sledge hammer. You size the tool to the job at hand.

If Cosman is only familiar with planing construction lumber, he wouldn't understand this.

[Jim Koepke]

There was a link to a youtube video posted where he claims the number 4 was a elementary school kids tool. And the 4-1/2 is a mans tool.

But normally yes, he pushes the 5-1/2

Wouldn't the same users of the bigger smoother and jack want a larger jointer like a #8?

It doesn't look like Woodriver makes a #8.

My #5-1/2 doesn't see as much use as my #6.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I do not need multi planes.
Here is a sample of what is available nearby.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lowes+hand+planer&oq=lowes+hand+&aqs=chrome.5.69i57j0i457j0l5j0i10.9671j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[mike stenson]

None of those are hand tools, or the ones that are... generally aren't worth the effort to try and make work.. then there's the lack of joinery tools

[Jim Koepke]

I do not need multi planes.
Here is a sample of what is available nearby.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lowes+hand+planer&oq=lowes+hand+&aqs=chrome.5.69i57j0i457j0l5j0i10.9671j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The first few links were for power planers. Finally found this:

444881

It is unlikely any of those would be my choice over an old Stanley.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

When I need a tool, I go to the big box store, fondle the tools, and buy the one that pleases me. :)

Lowell, if I remember right, weren't you a homebuilder Sir? When you suggested the big box store, were you thinking of homebuilding or furniture making? (Or were you just teasing to rile us up? :) :) :) )

[James Pallas]

All marketing. You wouldn’t want to compete with a #4. If the 41/2 was better the people that used them everyday would have used them. A bit like 8 ft. Pickups replacing 6 ft. Bed pickups. Now if you have a 6 ft. It’s a cool thing, “sport truck”. Didn’t go that way for the 4 1/2.

[lowell holmes]

I was a builder, I have not built a house in many years. I was gifted 20 lots in a local subdivision by my father-in-law that I built out.
I am 10 minutes from a Lowes and a Home Depot. They both have lumber and building supplies. There are three lumber yards within 30 minutes of my house. If I need a tool, I just go get one.

[Richard Hutchings]

I'm tired of cleaning up old tools, I wood try one of those if I couldn't find an old Stanley all cleaned up for me.