Well that was stupid.

[Steve Wurster]

Apparently I wasn't thinking when I did this, because earlier today I completely glued this lip onto this board. I didn't use screws from behind like I originally thought of doing. I didn't only glue the middle and find a way for the ends to float. Nope, I glued basically the entire piece (all but the very ends to avoid squeeze out). I wasn't thinking about wood movement at all; I just went ahead and glued it.

And now I have a nice cross-grain scenario that will almost certainly split that nice bookmatched walnut at some point in the future. Well, dang it. Ugh.

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[Ron Selzer]

Apparently I wasn't thinking when I did this, because earlier today I completely glued this lip onto this board. I didn't use screws from behind like I originally thought of doing. I didn't only glue the middle and find a way for the ends to float. Nope, I glued basically the entire piece (all but the very ends to avoid squeeze out). I wasn't thinking about wood movement at all; I just went ahead and glued it.

And now I have a nice cross-grain scenario that will almost certainly split that nice bookmatched walnut at some point in the future. Well, dang it. Ugh.


444414


If this piece is for you, then I would go ahead and use it.
If for someone paying for it then remake it
A lot depends on where it ends up, if in a house like mine that rarely is open to the outside then probably not an issue. If in a house open a lot of the time then yes probably a problem.
Keep the house closed up due to allergies, a/c, heat. humidifiers in the winter and dehumidifiers in summer, electronic air cleaner with fan running all the time. Yes there is an outside air intake to the furnace for makeup air.
good luck
Ron

[Andrew Hughes]

Beautiful lay up of walnut.
Walnut is pretty stable quartered is even better.
I say let it ride.
Good Luck

[Frank Pratt]

That's a tough one. With such an exceptional board I'd hate to chance it. How hard would it be to just cut the lip off, plane the board smooth, and put on a new lip?

[glenn bradley]

Agreed. Cut it off, pare or plane off the waste and do it right. Just my two cents.

[Steve Wurster]

To answer Ron's question, this board is for me. Well, it's for my house. It's actually destined to be the top of a music stand for my son; that lip will be where the paper rests (so the picture shows it from the top, as it were). The humidity in our house isn't perfectly stable. I made our bedroom hamper out of cherry years ago and the top has breadboard ends, and the field on that definitely moves with the seasons.

To reflect Andrew's comment, this board here is about 18" wide; that seems a little wide for me to say that it will remain stable, even if it is mostly quartersawn. Like I said above, I know the humidity in my house isn't stable all year long.

To answer Frank's question and Glenn's comment, I might be able to cut off just the lip and make a new one. The lip was installed using 4mm dominoes for alignment, not that it should matter. My biggest concern with trying to cut this off is my lack of confidence in my hand tool skills for something this long (the lip is about 17.5" long). I'm not worried about removing any waste that remains; heck, I can even do that with my drum sander. I'm mostly worried about damaging the rest of the board while trying to remove the lip. Any advice for me on the best way to remove that lip?

Thanks all.

[Matt Day]

If fits on your table saw, use a sled to cross cut the lip off. If not, use a circular saw with a clamped on guide. Easy peasy.

[Christopher Giles]

If I understand the situation correctly, I would cut through the dominoes (if you can remember where) with a Dremel, then place a block against the lip and whack it a few times with a hammer towards the center of the top until the glue line breaks. You will almost certainly have to replace the lip. Should be very doable.

[Lee Schierer]

Agreed. Cut it off, pare or plane off the waste and do it right. Just my two cents.

I agree with Glenn, cut off the bread board end and start over. The dominoes should be obvious once you slice off the majority of the end piece.

[Eugene Dixon]

Router and jig?

[Steve Wurster]

If fits on your table saw, use a sled to cross cut the lip off. If not, use a circular saw with a clamped on guide. Easy peasy.

I don't want to cut the bookmatched piece at all. I only want to remove the lip that sits up above the bookmatched piece. That's a rip cut, basically, at 90 degrees vertically to the bookmatched piece. The bottom of the main piece is flat though, so I might be able to put that flat down on the table saw surface, with the main piece sticking up and riding against the fence, and rip off most of the lip piece. I own a sliding table saw so this cut might be a little weirder to make compared to a cabinet-style saw, but still doable without using the sliding wagon.

[Steve Wurster]

If I understand the situation correctly, I would cut through the dominoes (if you can remember where) with a Dremel, then place a block against the lip and whack it a few times with a hammer towards the center of the top until the glue line breaks. You will almost certainly have to replace the lip. Should be very doable.

I don't remember where the dominoes are. There were marks on the pieces for when I cut the mortises of course, but those were sanded off before assembly. I thought of just whacking the piece as-is, but wondered if that might damage the main piece. I have no problems with replacing the lip; got plenty of suitable walnut sitting around.

[Steve Wurster]

I agree with Glenn, cut off the bread board end and start over. The dominoes should be obvious once you slice off the majority of the end piece.

Yeah, that's my current plan now. When I get into the shop later I'll see if I can easily and safely remove the lip by riding the back of the main piece up against my table saw fence. Or since I own a slider maybe I'll rig up something that can ride on the wagon. Either way, I can rip off most of that lip and then tackle cleaning up the remnants before making a new lip.

[Christopher Giles]

If all else fails, I would simply plane that bugger of with my electric hand planer. Presumably, there are no metal fasteners in the lip. Should only take a few minutes, but lots of shavings!

[Paul F Franklin]

Router and jig?

This is probably what I'd do. Set a couple of blocks on either side of the lip for the router to ride on, and just remove a bit at time with a straight bit until it is close enough to plane or sand flush.

[Jim Becker]

Steve, this is small enough that the risk is at least smaller, too. Just use it. It's beautiful.

That said, if necessary, you can carefully cut off the handle with a flush cut saw, clean up the board and put a new handle on before refinishing. The router method of removal is also worthy, either as an alternative to the flush cut saw or to allow you to do the manual cut farther from the board surface first and then clean up to (almost) flush with the router before sanding smooth and doing what needs done.

[Frank Pratt]

About 5 minutes with a hand plane would have that lip gone.

[Steve Wurster]

About 5 minutes with a hand plane would have that lip gone.

Not with my hand plane skills. LOL

[John TenEyck]

I don't see much problem removing it. Put a tall fence on your tablesaw and rip it off. Hand plane or sand it smooth and start anew. No table saw? OK, hand saw it off and plane/sand flush. Fixing mistakes is what makes us better woodworkers. Don't leave it like that. Fix it. You know you should, and you'll think about it ever time you look at it if you don't, wondering just when it's going to split.

John

[Frank Pratt]

Not with my hand plane skills. LOL

Now is a good time to learn. Maybe not with this though; you'd hate to blow past the lip & dig into that beautiful board.

But seriously, spend a bit of time learning some hand planing skills. You'll wonder why you didn't years ago. I'm not much of a hand tool guy, but there are so many situations in which a hand plane is so much easier, faster, quieter and gives better results than a power tool.

[lowell holmes]

You could put 1X2 battens in the bottom with glue. Hide them and they will not be seen.

[Steve Wurster]

Now is a good time to learn. Maybe not with this though; you'd hate to blow past the lip & dig into that beautiful board.

But seriously, spend a bit of time learning some hand planing skills. You'll wonder why you didn't years ago. I'm not much of a hand tool guy, but there are so many situations in which a hand plane is so much easier, faster, quieter and gives better results than a power tool.

Oh, I'm not bad with them, just not good enough to use it here. Well, more accurately, I don't think I could remove the bulk of this fast enough with my hand plane skills. I wouldn't even attempt to go really close the base piece, especially with its grain running the other direction.

Note: I cleaned up the edges of the main panel with a hand plane before gluing those, and also the thin edges of the lip. So I do use them here and there.

[Andrew Seemann]

It's music stand for your house, not an alter for a church. Use it and see what it does. If it works or gets a little crack then no problem. If it gets a big crack, make a new one and hang the old one on your shop wall as a "reminder" of wood movement:)

In your favor is that it is walnut and it is quarter sawn, total movement across the piece is probably 1/8 to 1/4 at worst. If you used Titebond, there might be just enough creep and the panel may have just enough strength that there is a fighting chance that it won't split or would be minimal. The other thing is that the ends may just separate a little and relieve the stress as well.

Musical instruments often have similar joints (some types of keyboards for example) that are 100% unsound woodworking practice, but are necessary for acoustic reasons, and somehow they survive, even with no-creep glues like hide or fish.

[Rob Damon]

If it was me (1 cents worth), I would hit it with a heat gun to see if you can soften the glue enough to break it loose with a hammer knowing it would do some surface damage, since you don't want to use a router with a simple jig or a handplane to remove it.
Then use a card scraper remove any remaining glue and smooth the slab.
Then I would cut a new cross piece that is thicker that the original to cover the damaged area. I would add a taper cut to the cross piece so the exposed edge would still look thin as the one on there now. (Thicker edge would attached to slab to cover the damage and thinner edge toward the outside.)

[Steve Wurster]

If it was me (1 cents worth), I would hit it with a heat gun to see if you can soften the glue enough to break it loose with a hammer knowing it would do some surface damage, since you don't want to use a router with a simple jig or a handplane to remove it.
Then use a card scraper remove any remaining glue and smooth the slab.
Then I would cut a new cross piece that is thicker that the original to cover the damaged area. I would add a taper cut to the cross piece so the exposed edge would still look thin as the one on there now. (Thicker edge would attached to slab to cover the damage and thinner edge toward the outside.)

Oh, I'm not against using a router jig... I just can't envision what it would be. lol

[Jim Becker]

What kind of glue did you use, Steve? If it's type I PVA (like Titebond original) some moisture and heat from a heat gun may make it release. That may even work for Type II. I have a small heat gun you can borrow if you don't have one in your shop.

[Steve Wurster]

What kind of glue did you use, Steve? If it's type I PVA (like Titebond original) some moisture and heat from a heat gun may make it release. That may even work for Type II. I have a small heat gun you can borrow if you don't have one in your shop.

Without getting up to look, I believe it's TB III. My current plan is to use a flush cut saw to get *really* close, and then go from there. We'll see how it goes.

[Jim Becker]

Well, with TB-III you're definitely in saw it off territory!

[Frank Pratt]

What kind of glue did you use, Steve? If it's type I PVA (like Titebond original) some moisture and heat from a heat gun may make it release. That may even work for Type II. I have a small heat gun you can borrow if you don't have one in your shop.

I've found that moisture will hardly touch Type II. I suppose that with prolonged exposure to water it will weaken, but that's not something that would be advisable here. It's rated as a water resistant glue.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Another ideas is to use a panel cutting sled, and dado set to remove lip.

[Steve Demuth]

About 5 minutes with a hand plane would have that lip gone.

That was my thought. Plane the sucker off. You can get most of it with a jack plane, and then switch to something more subtle once you're down to an eighth or sixteenth left.

[Steve Wurster]

Update: I cut off the old lip with a flush cut saw, getting fairly close but not all the way down. I used a hand plane to get even closer, and then sanded the remaining off with my ROS. I then re-cut the mortises with the Domino, as I'm still going to use those for alignment. What were 4mm thick Domino mortises are now about 4.5mm, but that's okay.

I didn't have time today to make a new lip, but hopefully I can get to that tomorrow and continue with this project.

444497

[Frank Pratt]

Happy day. Please post pics of this when it's all finished.

[Jim Matthews]

Without getting up to look, I believe it's TB III. My current plan is to use a flush cut saw to get *really* close, and then go from there. We'll see how it goes.

(Submitted before I saw your fix)

You need only relieve the outer (left and right) thirds.

Leave the "lip" fixed in the center of the panel. Caulk the upper side with black silicone to hide the fix and keep sheets from dropping through.

Apply painter's tape before sawing.

***

Just viewed your excellent results.

***

You can fix this, and it's worth the trouble.

I would try to press fit a replacement, with elongated slots in the lip for movement.
Glued only in the center, like a breadboard.

[Steve Wurster]

I would try to press fit a replacement, with elongated slots in the lip for movement.
Glued only in the center, like a breadboard.

Yeah, I'm planning on putting a little glue in the center and some nice screws in the back with little elongated slots to accommodate movement.

[Jim Becker]

I've found that moisture will hardly touch Type II. I suppose that with prolonged exposure to water it will weaken, but that's not something that would be advisable here. It's rated as a water resistant glue.
Yes, that's true, but with heat and moisture you can sometimes get lucky with Type-II. Not so with Type-III in my experience. Once cured, that stuff is "almost" hopeless to "make design adjustments".

[Jim Becker]

Looks good! Maybe use wood glue on the center tenon and some flexible adhesive on the outer ones, assuming the slots are in the wider "loose" setting for those outer ones. The movement isn't going to be huge on this panel, but that kind of thing should help manage it.

[Brian Tymchak]

Very nice recovery. Beautiful bookmatch.

[Steve Wurster]

Looks good! Maybe use wood glue on the center tenon and some flexible adhesive on the outer ones, assuming the slots are in the wider "loose" setting for those outer ones. The movement isn't going to be huge on this panel, but that kind of thing should help manage it.

Yeah, the slots are in the middle setting on the Domino so there's some space for movement. There's no direct center tenon however, but a little glue in the direct middle will keep that part secure and let the other parts of the panel float. I don't think I have or even used any "flexible" adhesive, so I am thinking of going with screws instead. The angle adjustment block that will go onto the back of this piece will be screwed on anyway, so showing a few screw heads in the back isn't a problem. Quality brass ones should look nice.

[Jim Becker]

Brass screws in slotted holes will certainly look nice. I was thinking something like silicone adhesive when I said "flexible", but in thinking about it I wonder if it would have enough hold if the item will be used frequently.

[Mel Fulks]

I wouldn't worry. Grain direction is not flat, and I'm guessing (and hoping ) that
the wood is kiln dried. All the rules of grain direction are good ,but kiln dried wood is pretty frozen. I've
done my own soaking and drying tests. The samples didn't move much more than platinum. Don't own
any ...but I read the specs.!

[Alan Lightstone]

Looks like a nice save, Steve. Chalk it up to experience and post a finished picture when done. I was thinking brass screws in slotted holes too.