Getting Serious on Electric Cars?

[Jim Koepke]

You’ll soon be able to buy an electric Chevrolet motor just as easily as one of its gas engines. After years of prototypes, the automaker plans to start selling crate electric motors and batteries to consumers by the second half of next year (via autoblog). And to showcase what you’ll be able to do with the tech, Chevy detailed a 1977 K5 Blazer conversion its Performance team completed using a near-production eCreate motor kit

https://www.engadget.com/chevy-ecrate-2021-174002305.html

This could be a new industry on to itself.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Seems to me the problem will be where to put the batteries. They probably take more space than the gas tank.

And you'll have to do some conversion on your air conditioning unit - probably add an electric motor to drive it. And electronics to control the AC. The electrics (lights and some motors, like the wipers) on the vehicle will probably remain 12 volts so you'll probably have to have some conversion electronics from the car battery to the 12 volts. You'll need a new heater because you won't have any more hot water from the engine. You'd also need a solution for power steering and power brakes.

The labor to do the conversion is not going to be cheap either.

I don't see this as a cost effective solution. It would probably be much less expensive to just purchase an electric vehicle.

Mike

[I think the only market for this is hobby people who just want to convert some older vehicle.]

[Jim Becker]

The idea does have merit, but yes, there are challenges with implementing the conversion. But it's the possibilities, rather than the problems that are nicely compelling. There's already at least one company that takes "junk yard Teslas" and does conversions, such as an older VW bus/van that I saw photos of recently. Vintage vehicle conversions is a pretty interesting niche, for sure!

[Jim Matthews]

It's a great way to keep body on frame cars running, when drivetrain parts run out.

It's not cheap - and will likely cost more than the straight up replacement.

https://evwest.com/catalog/

[Brian Elfert]

I don't think they intend this as a replacement for the motor in your everyday Camry or similar. It will probably go mostly into classic cars that need repower anyhow.

I am assuming GM has provisions for heat and A/C. An electric A/C compressor is likely included, or available as an accessory.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't think they intend this as a replacement for the motor in your everyday Camry or similar. It will probably go mostly into classic cars that need repower anyhow.

I am assuming GM has provisions for heat and A/C. An electric A/C compressor is likely included, or available as an accessory.

I did some reading about EV conversions after Jim posted here. There are some significant problems in the conversion, especially for cars after about 1966, unless you want a basic car without heat, AC, power steering, power brakes, etc. In later cars, the electronics makes it very difficult to convert and keep the features that the original car had. There are also concerns about center of gravity, crash worthiness, suspension, and fire from the batteries.

To my reading, the basic problem is that an ICE car was designed around an ICE and converting it to carry batteries and using an electric motor is a pretty major problem - and expensive. I can't see this as anything more than a niche product. I wouldn't be surprised if GM never makes this commercially available.

Mike

[Art Mann]

This report does not make me want to buy GM stock. I think they need to devote their development dollars to projects for which there is a significant demand.

[Frederick Skelly]

I once knew a guy who shoe-horned a V8 into a Chevy Vega that had somehow survived into the late 90s. It was a cool trick, but it sure wasnt a good drive. I think the same will happen with electric crate motors. You'll have some guys who do it just to see if they can. But I'm betting you'll mostly see them go into show (or show-off) cars - another way to show that the builders did something new/unique. But these conversions arent likely to be driven on the freeway - as Mike said, center of gravity, etc would be a concern. [Though could you picture a Hennessey or Callaway limited production conversion? Yowza!]

[Aaron Rosenthal]

I’ve seen the ICON motors all-electric rebuild of the ‘49 (I think) Mercury, and yes, the client base is relatively small.
It’s all doable, but as an old hot rod nut, some things that can be done don’t make a lot of sense once completed.

[Bill Dufour]

I saw a company will convert you Jaguar XKE to electric power for only $500,000. They give you back the engine etc and claim it is fully reversible.
Bill D.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a22811722/jaguar-e-type-zero-electric-ev-vintage/

[Ronald Blue]

This report does not make me want to buy GM stock. I think they need to devote their development dollars to projects for which there is a significant demand.
This is a very close minded outlook. There are many things in use today with vehicles that are the result of the racing programs they are involved in. If you never explore the possibilities beyond what you know at this moment progress becomes non existent. Proto types and experimental vehicles are being developed constantly. I read the article and they aren't creating a kit from scratch. Straight from the article.
Chevy says approximately 90 percent of the new components it installed in the Blazer are Bolt EV (https://www.engadget.com/2019-08-22-chevy-2020-bolt-ev-longer-range.html) parts straight from the factory, including the 200 horsepower motor that makes up the heart of the retrofit.
This seems like a great plan to me. Not for these but this is laying the groundwork for fleet conversions in the future. Companies that run vehicles for long periods of time and repair them as needed would be great candidates for this. Repower with electric and keep them going. Most service vehicles typically don't travel long distances in a day. Especially if they create kits for other brands this seems like a wide open market going forward.

[Art Mann]

I am afraid you are speaking from a position of very little knowledge as to what it would take to do such a conversion. I spent an entire career as an engineer for a major automotive manufacturer and understand the challenge a little better. I even know a guy who used an old Nissan to create an EV. He could have bought a new car for what he put in it. The best one could hope for in such a conversion would be a collector's item with little practical value. Some other posters have already listed several reasons why this is true. The biggest one I see is cost. It isn't even cost effective to replace the batteries in a vehicle that was designed as an EV, much less replace an entire motor and battery pack in an ICE vehicle. Perhaps GM has money to invest for hobby purposes but I am not interested in investing in it.

This is a very close minded outlook. There are many things in use today with vehicles that are the result of the racing programs they are involved in. If you never explore the possibilities beyond what you know at this moment progress becomes non existent. Proto types and experimental vehicles are being developed constantly. I read the article and they aren't creating a kit from scratch. Straight from the article.
Chevy says approximately 90 percent of the new components it installed in the Blazer are Bolt EV (https://www.engadget.com/2019-08-22-chevy-2020-bolt-ev-longer-range.html) parts straight from the factory, including the 200 horsepower motor that makes up the heart of the retrofit.
This seems like a great plan to me. Not for these but this is laying the groundwork for fleet conversions in the future. Companies that run vehicles for long periods of time and repair them as needed would be great candidates for this. Repower with electric and keep them going. Most service vehicles typically don't travel long distances in a day. Especially if they create kits for other brands this seems like a wide open market going forward.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

As tech develops lighter and smaller motors and batteries, it may become financially bearable option. I see dozens of motorized bicycles using those cheap conversion engines available on line. I don't believe they are legal to be licensed for road use here, but see lots of them anyway. I can actually understand an e-bike as more desireable. Less weight to drag around. easy to park and store. Actually a good short commute vehicle. Knew an attorney in DC that used a home converted electric bike to commute the 4 miles each way to his office, except in snow, rain and extreme wind. Some small motor bikes now have weather problem partially licked, they have a roof windshield and doors and a goofy training wheels system of outriggers that comes down as the speed reduces. As the vehicle slows to one or 2 miles per hour, the "training wheels are holding it up. As is pulls away from a stop, the wheels slowly go up. I see a few electric vehicles around, but major drawbacks are lack of sustained highway speeds and lack of range. Plus the delay, twiddling thumbs while the thing recharges at a charging station.

[Jim Matthews]

This is a very close minded outlook.

You don't suppose his VCR still flashes 12:00 do you?

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

The two things required for electric vehicles are a motor and source of electricity. right now batteries are the usual source of electricity. Foe a few decades now, there has been a line of thought that the electricity needed could be generated as needed. this was the futuristic promise of fuel cells a few decades back. Another example, if you believe such myths, was the alleged Gamma ray converter reported to have been developed by Tesla, and for which conspiracy folks say he was killed. There are also several scattered news accounts of motors that run on the earth's magnetic field. These are generally from around 1920. but there are several of these reports about different inventors independent of the others. I once had a collection of these news reports. Allegedly an airplane that ran on the earth's magnetism out in Western Pa. An electric car that generated it's own electricity out in Denver. Even a motor that did not use electricity, but ran on magnetism, which is what electric motors do. The reporter said that as the armature of the motor was turned parallel to the earth's magnetic axis, the motor sped up, turn the motor away from such alignment and it slowed. Some or all of such things may have been snake oil. However any body who ever used two pieces of wire to find a buried pipe or septic tank, knows that there is some force that causes those wires to move.

[Jim Matthews]

I don't believe they are legal to be licensed for road use here, but see lots of them anyway. I can actually understand an e-bike as more desireable. Less weight to drag around. easy to park and store. Actually a good short commute vehicle. Knew an attorney in DC that used a home converted electric bike to commute the 4 miles each way to his office, except in snow, rain and extreme wind.

You're on to something, regarding distance.
Commutes need to be convenient, and brief.

The killer app for electric bikes, or "E-assist" is urban delivery - where lack of parking causes delays. These are rolling out on flat cities, with decent weather.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/ups-launches-an-electric-assisted-tricycle-delivery-service-in-seattle/

[Jim Becker]

I did some reading about EV conversions after Jim posted here. There are some significant problems in the conversion, especially for cars after about 1966, unless you want a basic car without heat, AC, power steering, power brakes, etc. In later cars, the electronics makes it very difficult to convert and keep the features that the original car had. There are also concerns about center of gravity, crash worthiness, suspension, and fire from the batteries.

To my reading, the basic problem is that an ICE car was designed around an ICE and converting it to carry batteries and using an electric motor is a pretty major problem - and expensive. I can't see this as anything more than a niche product. I wouldn't be surprised if GM never makes this commercially available.

Mike
Good observation and I strongly suspect that most conversions are going to be focused on older "classic" vehicles which is a nice niche to be in.

[Brian Elfert]

One would assume if GM started selling a "crate" electric motor kit that they thought about such things as HVAC, power steering, power brakes, and so on.

[Jim Becker]

One would assume if GM started selling a "crate" electric motor kit that they thought about such things as HVAC, power steering, power brakes, and so on.
While the Engaget. article linked to in the OP doesn't detail GM's intended market, it wouldn't be hard to assume from the context of the vehicle illustrated being an old 1977 Blazer that a good chunk of the interest for this kind of kit will likely be vehicles that didn't have things like AC, power steering, power brakes, etc. So I do suspect they have thought of that and would likely have guidance available on the same given they intend to authorize entities to sell the kits and one would thing there will be some "caveats" and "things to consider" offered to end buyers.

[Brian Elfert]

This report does not make me want to buy GM stock. I think they need to devote their development dollars to projects for which there is a significant demand.

GM has averaged over $7 billion in R&D spending per year since 2013. You're going to ditch GM stock because they spent maybe $20 or $30 million on developing an electric crate motor? Projects like these help keep engineers engaged in their jobs. Post-It notes were an accidental invention at 3M that has made billions for them.

I think you would be surprised how much money many large public companies spend on R&D on projects like this that never get publicized. It isn't unusual for companies with lots of engineers to have their engineers work something like 20% of their time on projects that interest them to keep them engaged in their jobs.

[Jim Becker]

Brian, I agree. And in this case, it's something where there may be a good market for folks who willingly spend money.

[Steve Demuth]

I am afraid you are speaking from a position of very little knowledge as to what it would take to do such a conversion. I spent an entire career as an engineer for a major automotive manufacturer and understand the challenge a little better. I even know a guy who used an old Nissan to create an EV. He could have bought a new car for what he put in it. The best one could hope for in such a conversion would be a collector's item with little practical value. Some other posters have already listed several reasons why this is true. The biggest one I see is cost. It isn't even cost effective to replace the batteries in a vehicle that was designed as an EV, much less replace an entire motor and battery pack in an ICE vehicle. Perhaps GM has money to invest for hobby purposes but I am not interested in investing in it.

I have to agree with Art on this one. Whatever the economics (which don't look favorable), the engineering seems extremely challenging, because the weight distribution (and actually, the absolute weight) and the drive trains are so different in an electric vehicle. Batteries, are big, and they are heavy. So in addition to a completely novel engine, you have to re-engineer the physical configuration (for the drivetrain) and suspension systems to do this. If you don't have professional engineering, you're not going to succeed.

[Doug Dawson]

While the Engaget. article linked to in the OP doesn't detail GM's intended market, it wouldn't be hard to assume from the context of the vehicle illustrated being an old 1977 Blazer that a good chunk of the interest for this kind of kit will likely be vehicles that didn't have things like AC, power steering, power brakes, etc. So I do suspect they have thought of that and would likely have guidance available on the same given they intend to authorize entities to sell the kits and one would thing there will be some "caveats" and "things to consider" offered to end buyers.

I agree. It is likely that a 77 Blazer no longer has a/c, power steering, or power brakes (or headlights or tail lights. :^) So it doesn’t really matter.

I have actually driven a car with two engines, one in the front and one in the back. I was a bit worried about this, because there was no _really_ good way to secure the engine in the back, in case of an accident or even heavy braking. I assume the same would be true in a 77 Blazer, with the batteries.

[Doug Garson]

This report does not make me want to buy GM stock. I think they need to devote their development dollars to projects for which there is a significant demand.
While I agree e conversions would be a small niche market, GM's introduction of this kits may do more for market image than retail sales. What would make me not want to invest in GM would be if they were ignoring the e vehicle market. Hard to imagine any car company surviving the next 25 years without a heavy investment in non ICE vehicles.

[Derek Meyer]

I have a friend who is working on a project to convert an old Volvo coupe to an all-electric racer. His project is more about rebuilding the car from the chassis up to look like the old Volvo than just doing an electric conversion. It's a project that goes way beyond the average weekend warrior. He has a website (http://evolvproject.com) with details if you are interested.

[andrew whicker]

I didn't realize car nuts who trick out vehicles were worried about economic feasibilities.

[Doug Garson]

I have a friend who is working on a project to convert an old Volvo coupe to an all-electric racer. His project is more about rebuilding the car from the chassis up to look like the old Volvo than just doing an electric conversion. It's a project that goes way beyond the average weekend warrior. He has a website (http://evolvproject.com) with details if you are interested.
Impressive website.

[Bill Dufour]

You could convert a Ford fairlane with dual attennas to be electric and drive under the trolley bus wires. Just make those antennas a bit longer so they can work as trolley poles.
Bill D.

https://buy.motorious.com/articles/news/356031/stunning-1955-ford-fairlane-crown-victoria-seeks-new-suitor
Bill D.

[Jim Becker]

Older body-on-frame vehicles offer a lot of creative opportunity to completely re-engineer things to account for both the electric drivetrain, batteries and other things. A builder could even completely replace the original frame/chassis, making it very modern and able to handle the incredible performance possible as an EV while allowing "the look" to be maintained externally. I don't think this kind of offer is going to be intended as a Mass Market killing; rather, it's going to cater to a more pointed space where engineering and money are abundant. In this case, GM would get "brownie points" for being the motivation supplier.

[Mike Henderson]

I didn't realize car nuts who trick out vehicles were worried about economic feasibilities.

Wow, that is the truth!

Mike

[Steve Demuth]

You could convert a Ford fairlane with dual attennas to be electric and drive under the trolley bus wires. Just make those antennas a bit longer so they can work as trolley poles.
Bill D.

https://buy.motorious.com/articles/news/356031/stunning-1955-ford-fairlane-crown-victoria-seeks-new-suitor
Bill D.

This forum so needs a "like" button.

[Ronald Blue]

Art I take it you are an automotive engineer? Since you presume you know more than I about this. You may well indeed. But you totally ignored the rest of my post. The part that this might only be a small part of the pie looking ahead. There certainly is great potential for the market I mentioned. Companies that operate large fleets of service vehicles would be prime candidates for conversions. Only a fool would think they expect to make millions from this.

[Bill Dufour]

I would like to see someone else do a conversion of a modern electric motor set and battery to a Baker Electric car. The kind with cut crystal flower vases inside. Not sure if they have a wheel or tiller for steering. A BMW Isetta would be a good candidate as well.
I can see a family resemblance between the BMW Isetta and the modern BMW smart car
Bill D.

[Bill Dufour]

ford 400hp electric tractor and the worlds oldest light bulb still in use. Has not been turned off since 1901.
Bil lD

[Chris Padilla]

There are more than a handful of companies all going autonomous--notice that all of them are pure electric.
I just secured a recent job with Nuro: nuro.ai A fully electric (robotic) and autonomous electric delivery cart.

[Kev Williams]

Electric conversion ain't that hard. Just ask this guy :)

444351

https://www.ksl.com/article/46753013/you-can-hate-on-this-electric-converted-1958-pickup-truck-just-dont-race-it

[Todd Trebuna]

A couple of thoughts. Wow, is that going to be expensive! It doesn't seem practical when you consider the load based font he accessories. Gasoline motors adapt to the load of accessories, I'm assuming, based on combustion. A controlled explosion isn't really bothered all that much by an A/C and a radio. The Alternator is charging the battery which takes care of some of the electrical accessories, like the aforementioned radio. I don't know much about electric cars, but can they generate power to overcome additional load? I do agree that Battery space is going to be an issue, but see that as a non issue, if the batteries can fit in the space currently occupied by the gas tank.
I have alot of other questions too, just general philosophical questions, like whether we want more nuclear power, fossil fuel and whether or not sustainable resources like Wind and Solar will ever be practical.
I'm trying to think of a car that I've owned that I would like to see as an EV, and I came up with zero. My current ride 2014 Silverado is about the only one on the list, but since it pulls a 26 foot Travel Trailer part of the time, it would have to be able to have some range and refuel options.

[Rick Potter]

Doggone it, My '56 Fairlane only has one antenna....but it is an electric one.


444374

[Jim Becker]

Wow, is that going to be expensive! It doesn't seem practical when you consider the load based font he accessories. .

This kind of thing isn't about financial practicality...it's more about the opportunity for a relatively small market to be able to electrify a vehicle (likely vintage) with a competent system because they want to and don't really care about the cost.

[Doug Garson]

A couple of thoughts. Wow, is that going to be expensive! It doesn't seem practical when you consider the load based font he accessories. Gasoline motors adapt to the load of accessories, I'm assuming, based on combustion. A controlled explosion isn't really bothered all that much by an A/C and a radio. The Alternator is charging the battery which takes care of some of the electrical accessories, like the aforementioned radio. I don't know much about electric cars, but can they generate power to overcome additional load? I do agree that Battery space is going to be an issue, but see that as a non issue, if the batteries can fit in the space currently occupied by the gas tank.
I have alot of other questions too, just general philosophical questions, like whether we want more nuclear power, fossil fuel and whether or not sustainable resources like Wind and Solar will ever be practical.
I'm trying to think of a car that I've owned that I would like to see as an EV, and I came up with zero. My current ride 2014 Silverado is about the only one on the list, but since it pulls a 26 foot Travel Trailer part of the time, it would have to be able to have some range and refuel options.

I'm really struggling to understand your post.
What is "load based font he accessories"? Is there a typo or two in there?
How do gasoline engines adapt to accessories? By burning more gasoline to generate the electricity to run the accessories. The alternator doesn't charge the battery for free, it takes more fuel to drive with accessories like air conditioning on.
How do electric cars power accessories? By drawing more current from the battery. So yes battery draw is increased when using accessories like AC.
Re your philosophical question, what makes you think sustainable resources like wind and solar aren't already practical? New electric generating capacity in 2020 will come primarily from wind and solar. According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration's (EIA) latest inventory of electric generators, EIA expects 42 gigawatts (GW) of new capacity additions to start commercial operation in 2020.Jan 14, 2020

[Mike Henderson]

If someone really wants to convert an antique car, probably the lowest cost way would be to purchases a crashed EV where the essential parts were not destroyed and use those to convert your car.

GM is selling parts that would go into a Bolt (car). Find a crashed Bolt and take the parts.

Mike

[The overall problem I see is that a car is designed as a "system". The drive train is matched to the engine, the suspension is matched to the weight and center of gravity, the brakes are matched to the weight and front-to-back balance, etc. When you convert a car, the components may no longer be appropriate to the new "system".]

[andrew whicker]

Super cool. And he's right about the SLC valley... let's try to reduce the emissions.. None of us need lung health issues : )

Maybe I'm becoming a gas guzzling combustion engine hater, but I'm the guy writing down license plate numbers of diesels that smoke (illegal in my county)... so I might be biased.

[Doug Garson]

Just watched a couple of videos in a series, of a guy converting a Mini to an EV using a used forklift motor. His budget for the whole project including the Mini which he bought with a blown engine is $5000. So far he has bolted the forklift motor to the original transmission using a custom made adapter plate and coupling. Not sure if he knows what he is doing or if he will succeed but apparently runs a shop where he repairs EVs and has posted a bunch of videos on related projects. His channel is called Rich Rebuilds, he posts weekly updates on the project. I'll be watching his progress. His video style is so so but the topic is interesting. Here's a link to the first video, you may want to skip thru some parts.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykToLuUghhk

[Frank Pratt]

Just watched a couple of videos in a series, of a guy converting a Mini to an EV using a used forklift motor. His budget for the whole project including the Mini which he bought with a blown engine is $5000. So far he has bolted the forklift motor to the original transmission using a custom made adapter plate and coupling. Not sure if he knows what he is doing or if he will succeed but apparently runs a shop where he repairs EVs and has posted a bunch of videos on related projects. His channel is called Rich Rebuilds, he posts weekly updates on the project. I'll be watching his progress. His video style is so so but the topic is interesting. Here's a link to the first video, you may want to skip thru some parts.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykToLuUghhk

I've watched quite a few of his videos. He's very entertaining & the work is interesting, but I would not want to be driving something that he had a hand in putting together. He comes across as a complete hack, but that may just be part of his shtick.

[Doug Garson]

I've watched quite a few of his videos. He's very entertaining & the work is interesting, but I would not want to be driving something that he had a hand in putting together. He comes across as a complete hack, but that may just be part of his shtick.
Well said, on the Mini, he had the adapter plate and coupling fabricated before he tested the motor (it worked) then assembled it without checking clearances and ground a bunch of metal off when he tested the motor transmission combo. Not exactly confidence boosting.

[Frank Pratt]

Well said, on the Mini, he had the adapter plate and coupling fabricated before he tested the motor (it worked) then assembled it without checking clearances and ground a bunch of metal off when he tested the motor transmission combo. Not exactly confidence boosting.

I've seen lots of similar stupid/sloppy mistakes in his other videos. He is pretty funny though, especially when dealing with the haters in the comments.

[Jim Matthews]

Remember, Richard rebuilds got started figuring out how to rebuild Teslas from scrapped vehicles - without tech manuals or factory support.

$6500 and five hundred determined hours later he has a running, registered and inspected Model S.

He may be many things, but he's no hack.

https://www.boston.com/cars/car-culture/2018/10/12/tesla-model-s-rich-rebuilds

[Frank Pratt]

Remember, Richard rebuilds got started figuring out how to rebuild Teslas from scrapped vehicles - without tech manuals or factory support.

$6500 and five hundred determined hours later he has a running, registered and inspected Model S.

He may be many things, but he's no hack.

https://www.boston.com/cars/car-culture/2018/10/12/tesla-model-s-rich-rebuilds

No arguing at all that he's smart, determined & motivated. I've wondered if his loosey goosey, red neck engineering thing was a bit of an act for the videos.

And there's his new assistant, Leenda. I think he hired her to stir the pot with some of his viewers. It will be interesting to see where things go with her, because I don't think she's any dummy.

[Warren Lake]

havent read the thread but have seen lots of custom electrics. Last night an old VW beetle. Stunning power as usual in those builds. First one I saw was the Zombie datsun 510 then the mustang done I think at EV it was 1000 HP if I remember correctly. Its all big buck stuff but it will get better. When I read at the time you could do your own for 30k for parts.

Here is the VW


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXGKt8sK8CQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXGKt8sK8CQ)

[Doug Garson]

havent read the thread but have seen lots of custom electrics. Last night an old VW beetle. Stunning power as usual in those builds. First one I saw was the Zombie datsun 510 then the mustang done I think at EV it was 1000 HP if I remember correctly. Its all big buck stuff but it will get better. When I read at the time you could do your own for 30k for parts.

Here is the VW


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXGKt8sK8CQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXGKt8sK8CQ)
I want one!

[Lee DeRaud]

Good observation and I strongly suspect that most conversions are going to be focused on older "classic" vehicles which is a nice niche to be in.I'd start looking for a rust-free '65 or later Corvair coupe, with the idea of giving up the back seat for battery space. Most of the obvious objections (C/G, power steering, etc) are non-issues in that application...if anything, the handling would be improved.

[Jim Becker]

I'd start looking for a rust-free '65 or later Corvair coupe, with the idea of giving up the back seat for battery space. Most of the obvious objections (C/G, power steering, etc) are non-issues in that application...if anything, the handling would be improved.

Really weird because that was a thought i had after passing a four door parked on the street in town the other day. We had Corvairs when I was a young kid...multiple trips to Florida for a family of four, even. :) They would make for a very interesting project vehicle for this kind of thing.

[Lee DeRaud]

Really weird because that was a thought i had after passing a four door parked on the street in town the other day. We had Corvairs when I was a young kid...multiple trips to Florida for a family of four, even. :) They would make for a very interesting project vehicle for this kind of thing.
Learned to drive stick in my dad's '62 Spyder: if you could handle the twitchy clutch in that thing, you could drive anything. Had two of my own in college (perfect for Colorado winters), followed by a full restoration on a '65 Corsa a decade or so later.

I've probably exceeded my lifetime quota. :)

[Bill Dufour]

How about a Citreon DS or a CV2. The 1955 DS looks more modern then most cars made today. The CV2 looks like it should be an electric car. The SAAB sonnet would look like a traditional electric car. After seeing one in the flesh I was surprised to find out they are not electric. The Oscar Meyer winier mobile looks like it has a giant battery in a hotdog bun already.
Bill D.

The SAAB picture does not really show the true ugliness of the car. I thought the one I saw had plywood body panels. The CV2 is french for two horses. It was designed to replace a two horse farm cart.

[Lee DeRaud]

The CV2 looks like it should be an electric car.More like a pedal-car carrying an octet of clowns.

[Frederick Skelly]

The SAAB picture does not really show the true ugliness of the car. I thought the one I saw had plywood body panels. The CV2 is french for two horses. It was designed to replace a two horse farm cart.

I've never seen a Saab Sonett-III (green car) in person. To my eye, it looks alot like a Bricklin! Not exactly, but enough that I had to look twice.

[Art Mann]

Yes, I am an automotive engineer. I also spent some time working for a military contractor doing a study on the feasibility of converting the HMMWV (Hummer) to a hybrid power plant. It was proven to be a waste of time because the conversion costs exceeded the cost of buying a new vehicle. That is exactly what fleet operators will encounter when they try to do an even more difficult of converting to all electric. There will some day be a big market for electric cars but my opinion is there will never be a market for conversion except for novelty vehicles. Heck, that is what internal combustion crate engines are used for now. They are very seldom used to restore the functionality of old work vehicles because that is too expensive to do so.


Art I take it you are an automotive engineer? Since you presume you know more than I about this. You may well indeed. But you totally ignored the rest of my post. The part that this might only be a small part of the pie looking ahead. There certainly is great potential for the market I mentioned. Companies that operate large fleets of service vehicles would be prime candidates for conversions. Only a fool would think they expect to make millions from this.

[Jim Koepke]

It was proven to be a waste of time because the conversion costs exceeded the cost of buying a new vehicle.

One factor may not have been in the cost calculations, tax incentives or allowances passed into law. If a law allows for a better break for conversion than for buying new all bets are off.

jtk

[Ronald Blue]

Yes, I am an automotive engineer. I also spent some time working for a military contractor doing a study on the feasibility of converting the HMMWV (Hummer) to a hybrid power plant. It was proven to be a waste of time because the conversion costs exceeded the cost of buying a new vehicle. That is exactly what fleet operators will encounter when they try to do an even more difficult of converting to all electric. There will some day be a big market for electric cars but my opinion is there will never be a market for conversion except for novelty vehicles. Heck, that is what internal combustion crate engines are used for now. They are very seldom used to restore the functionality of old work vehicles because that is too expensive to do so.


That's great. Time will tell. Using shelf parts there isn't huge R & D costs involved here. A hybrid would be far more complex than a straight electric. Really an apples and oranges comparison.

[Bill Dufour]

Lots of older cars get a new fuel injected v8, computer controlled automatic transmission, power brakes, power steering and air conditioning and a chrome plated jaguar independent rear axle. Seems like an electric motor with attached transaxle might be an easier swap.
Bill D.
Link included just to show wood working in the automotive world.

[Jim Matthews]

There's a great deal of prognostication from people who can't see over their own past.

We are in the midst of a rapid change to electrification, and it's lead by commercial users.

Fleet conversions to EV drivetrains, with battery or Fuel Cell stacks are happening today, and on a surprisingly large scale.

https://insideevs.com/news/392555/video-amazon-electric-delivery-trucks/

https://www.carsforsale.com/ford-transit-connect-electric-for-sale-C137302

https://lightningemotors.com/

[Steve Demuth]

Really weird because that was a thought i had after passing a four door parked on the street in town the other day. We had Corvairs when I was a young kid...multiple trips to Florida for a family of four, even. :) They would make for a very interesting project vehicle for this kind of thing.

How about a 70s era Opel: https://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/electric-car-conversion-zmaz79jazraw

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Any body remember the Sparrow. I used to see a few around DC 20 years ago. A buddy tells me there is still one being used to commute into DC every day. Electric lightweight 3 wheel motorcycle with a body and driver compartment.

[Jim Becker]

Lots of older cars get a new fuel injected v8, computer controlled automatic transmission, power brakes, power steering and air conditioning and a chrome plated jaguar independent rear axle. Seems like an electric motor with attached transaxle might be an easier swap.
.

Honestly, the drive train is likely the easiest part of the conversion, within reason. The larger challenge is to locate the batteries unobtrusively as much as possible as well as to insure that the weight of the same is accounted for appropriately. Of course, for "show" vehicles, range is less of a concern, so battery space can be conserved more than with a vehicle intended for daily, regular use where range is more important.

[Jim Becker]

How about a 70s era Opel: https://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/electric-car-conversion-zmaz79jazraw

Yet another good example of a worthy project.

Interestingly, one of the series authors I read has a character who drives around the country in an electrified 1000hp older Mustang....actually "driving" isn't the best word sometimes. "Flying" is more like it, at least in the story lines. :) The fact that it's totally silent and matte black plays a role in the storylines, too, sneaking up on or hiding from the "bad guys".

[Jim Matthews]

How about a 70s era Opel: https://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/electric-car-conversion-zmaz79jazraw

1979?

That's hilarious.

[Art Mann]

You can do all sorts of things if money is no object. I once was involved in the adaptation of an electronic instrument cluster from a 1980's Chrysler Lebaron into a 1930's hot rod. It took several engineers a few man-days to get the job done. The guy could never have afforded to do that on his own. This was a group of friends in an engineering office doing the work for free. The vehicle itself only bore a visual resemblance to the original vehicle. The drivetrain was modern. All of my comments are trying to answer the question of whether an electric crate motor can be used to adapt an older vehicle to modern utilitarian service in a cost effective manner. My opinion is still no.


Lots of older cars get a new fuel injected v8, computer controlled automatic transmission, power brakes, power steering and air conditioning and a chrome plated jaguar independent rear axle. Seems like an electric motor with attached transaxle might be an easier swap.
Bill D.
Link included just to show wood working in the automotive world.

[Jim Becker]

Art, I suspect that a big part of the intent of those electrification kits is just that...for when money isn't a factor.

[Steve Demuth]

1979?

That's hilarious.

I remember reading that when it was published and discussing with a mechanic friend doing the same conversion on an early 50s Chevy 3/4ton pickup. The engine compartment on those things was huge, and the tranny mostly under the cab, so we figured we could easily fit enough batteries in. Didn't do it though. I had more ideas than money, or time, in those days.

Of course that's a hybrid-electric conversion, not a true electric conversion. Battery tech wasn't close to dense enough to get decent range out of a full electric back then. That kind of torque in that little Opel must have been awesome though.

[Kev Williams]

I love the sound of loud V8's. And V-twins. I put side pipes on most of the cars I owned in my younger day, those that didn't get sidepipes got drivelines welded to cut-in-half Cherry Bombs and hung next to the pumpkin. My old Sportster has straight pipes. Both the wife's Mustang GT Convertibles, soon as I was able they got louder mufflers. Our Chaparral 262ssi bowrider had sidepipes. I've been working on a true dual sidepipe setup for my F-250..

So what's someone like me supposed to do about a 1000 hp car that will assault my ears with nothing but road noise and body rattles? :D

[Jim Becker]

Kev...I suspect that digital audio is your friend. :) And the sample will always sound exactly how you want it to when you stomp on the skinny pedal and send those extra electrons coursing through the multiple motors which in turn will put you deep into your seat from the G-force of raw acceleration that's available from those motors. There's a reason that a healthy percentage of "supercars" are going all electric. :) And it isn't noise related.

[Doug Garson]

I love the sound of loud V8's. And V-twins. I put side pipes on most of the cars I owned in my younger day, those that didn't get sidepipes got drivelines welded to cut-in-half Cherry Bombs and hung next to the pumpkin. My old Sportster has straight pipes. Both the wife's Mustang GT Convertibles, soon as I was able they got louder mufflers. Our Chaparral 262ssi bowrider had sidepipes. I've been working on a true dual sidepipe setup for my F-250..

So what's someone like me supposed to do about a 1000 hp car that will assault my ears with nothing but road noise and body rattles? :D
Save a fortune on hearing aids in your later years? :D

[Doug Garson]

Can anyone explain the physics behind the 75 mpg Opel hybrid? You are still using a gasoline engine as the only source of power. Is there that much efficiency gain from running the gas engine at fixed (assume most efficient ) rpm plus regenerative braking? Or do they not include gas burned to charge the batteries when the car isn't moving?

[Mike Henderson]

Can anyone explain the physics behind the 75 mph Opel hybrid? You are still using a gasoline engine as the only source of power. Is there that much efficiency gain from running the gas engine at fixed (assume most efficient ) rpm plus regenerative braking? Or do they not include gas burned to charge the batteries when the car isn't moving?

Is that mph or mpg? Seems like 75mph wouldn't be hard.

[I went and looked at the original post. It's mpg. I doubt if they honestly get 75mpg out of that. They have a 100 amp 12 volt generator. That's 1200VA (or Watts). A perfect HP is about 750 watts so that system can produce about 1.6 HP if there were no losses. A more honest HP is about 1,000 watts so that system would produce just a bit more than 1HP. Once you depleted the batteries you aren't going to be traveling very fast.]

It's probably even worse because there are losses in the electric motor. The mechanical power out will be lucky to get 1HP.

It looks like the batteries are connected in series so maybe the generator is 48 volts. That would give them 4800VA, which would give them 6.4 perfect HP or more likely about 5HP. But the gasoline motor is only 5HP so with losses, the output from the generator is probably more like 4HP. After going through the cables and the losses in the motor, you'd be lucky to get 3HP to the wheels.

When they publish something like that article on the Opel, you wonder if anyone (writer or editor) can do just a bit of mathematics when evaluating the claims before publishing it.

Mike

[Doug Garson]

Is that mph or mpg? Seems like 75mph wouldn't be hard.

[I went and looked at the original post. It's mpg. I doubt if they honestly get 75mpg out of that.]

Mikeoops typo mpg I'll edit thanks Mike

[Doug Garson]

Note, the article also claims virtually unlimited range when driven prudently, sounds like an unrealistic claim.

[Mike Henderson]

Note, the article also claims virtually unlimited range when driven prudently, sounds like an unrealistic claim.

With 1HP to the wheels, I suspect you have no choice but to drive prudently - probably in the far right lane with people behind you honking at you.:)

Mike

[Doug Garson]

With 1HP to the wheels, I suspect you have no choice but to drive prudently - probably in the far right lane with people behind you honking at you.:)

MikeOr on the sidewalk with people pushing you. :D

[Jim Matthews]

From the article (which has no independent attributions):

"The engine-driven generator can handle the demand from the main motor up to speeds of about 50 miles per hour. The "stored" energy in the batteries comes into play at higher velocities, giving extra kick for passing and climbing hills."

"As far as the driving range is concerned, Dave points out that the car can travel unlimited distances—if driven carefully—because the motor has a low draw at cruising speeds: only 0.23 amps at 1,800 RPM. Since the Briggs & Stratton engine turns at a fixed rate and can generate 100 amps at about 28 1/2 volts, normal driving presents no problem."

My guess is that the jet engine starter motor/generator is tremendously efficient, once this steerable coffin on wheels gets moving. The battery bank is really operating in parallel to the generator - to provide amperage during peak demand, and to buffer return current during braking.

At .23 A driving the nominal speed of 50 mph described, 75 mpg does seem at least plausible. I would like to see something like this mocked up using a Fuel Cell stack out of a forklift instead of a B&S thumper.

But still, this was cobbled together in 1979 and actually worked.

It proves (yet again) that I'm neither a Futurist nor remotely aware of what inventors are up to. Imagine what's happening- today.https://youtu.be/PCSNCs7bwCw

[David Bassett]

... probably in the far right lane with people behind you honking at you.:) ....

In your part of the world, they don't always honk...

My mom, when in her late 70's, was rear-ended while doing 70+ mph in the slow lane. (On the 22 to Long Beach just west of the 55.) The guy that hit her was zoned out and it never occurred to him anyone would only be 5-10mph over the limit. She had the last laugh, he bent my Dad's wheel chair bumper rack and it poked a hole in his radiator. :)

[Doug Garson]

From the article (which has no independent attributions):

"The engine-driven generator can handle the demand from the main motor up to speeds of about 50 miles per hour. The "stored" energy in the batteries comes into play at higher velocities, giving extra kick for passing and climbing hills."

"As far as the driving range is concerned, Dave points out that the car can travel unlimited distances—if driven carefully—because the motor has a low draw at cruising speeds: only 0.23 amps at 1,800 RPM. Since the Briggs & Stratton engine turns at a fixed rate and can generate 100 amps at about 28 1/2 volts, normal driving presents no problem."

My guess is that the jet engine starter motor/generator is tremendously efficient, once this steerable coffin on wheels gets moving. The battery bank is really operating in parallel to the generator - to provide amperage during peak demand, and to buffer return current during braking.

At .23 A driving the nominal speed of 50 mph described, 75 mpg does seem at least plausible. I would like to see something like this mocked up using a Fuel Cell stack out of a forklift instead of a B&S thumper.

But still, this was cobbled together in 1979 and actually worked.

It proves (yet again) that I'm neither a Futurist nor remotely aware of what inventors are up to. Imagine what's happening- today.https://youtu.be/PCSNCs7bwCw



0.23 amps at 28.5 volts works out to just over 6 hp if the converter I used is correct, is it reasonable to believe you only need 6 hp to cruise at 50 mph? Don't know, just asking.

[Jim Matthews]

The generator powers the motor, directly if I follow the article correctly. What's not discussed is the role of the FCR in this and generation losses.

The battery pack is loaded in parallel, not always drawing current.

I wouldn't draw much from the article without independent confirmation of results.

It must have sounded like a lawnmower on the loose.

[Steve Demuth]

0.23 amps at 28.5 volts works out to just over 6 hp if the converter I used is correct, is it reasonable to believe you only need 6 hp to cruise at 50 mph? Don't know, just asking.

Realistically, no. But the article was in Mother Earth News in 1979, from a hippy garage mechanic in backwoods Arkansas. I can't say that I think the laws of physics were the same then and under those circumstances, so who knows what he actually experienced?

My wife's Chevy Volt has a battery pack capacity of about 25 hp-hours (yeah, it's an odd measurement, but a valid one). On a dead flat road, with no wind, no heater or AC, and nice dry air, she could potentially get 50 miles out of that at 50 mph (probably a little bit of a stretch, but close enough). So in strict mechanical terms, she'd be running 25hp to "cruise" that highly tuned, aerodynamic vehicle.

[Lee DeRaud]

So in strict mechanical terms, she'd be running 25hp to "cruise" that highly tuned, aerodynamic vehicle.This might help, if you have some ballpark numbers to stuff in:
http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/horsepower_calc.shtml

[EDIT] Chevy Volt Cd = 0.28 and 23.7sqft (Car & Driver), and 3500lb (guesstimate)...50mph = 10.3hp

[Jim Matthews]

This might help, if you have some ballpark numbers to stuff in:
http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/horsepower_calc.shtml

[EDIT] Chevy Volt Cd = 0.28 and 23.7sqft (Car & Driver), and 3500lb (guesstimate)...50mph = 10.3hp

Stock Opel GT weighed 1800 pounds.

I'm optimistic this thing got his 75 mpg figure at least once.
What isn't knownis how long this kludge held together.

[Lee DeRaud]

Stock Opel GT weighed 1800 pounds.Weight isn't a major factor for cruise power; I suspect they're only using it as a first-order approximation for tire/rolling resistance. The Opel GT does have a small(ish) frontal area, but is probably less aerodynamic (higher Cd) than it looks.

[Kev Williams]

sounds like diesel locomotives in miniature ;)

A little googling tells me that a diesel train can move 1 ton of freight >470 miles on a gallon of fuel... I see no reason a generator based electric car couldn't run indefinitely without charging...

[Steve Demuth]

This might help, if you have some ballpark numbers to stuff in:
http://www.apexgarage.com/tech/horsepower_calc.shtml

[EDIT] Chevy Volt Cd = 0.28 and 23.7sqft (Car & Driver), and 3500lb (guesstimate)...50mph = 10.3hp

Yeah, it's interesting that the numbers come out that differently. I don't doubt the 10hp figure from the drag-hp equation, but I also don't doubt that what I wrote is true. A big part of the difference is that a Volt will only use about 2/3 of the the actual energy in it's battery, so the nominal 25 hp-hours, is actually more like 16 or so. So the drag equation says a bit over 10 hp, and the Volt actually uses an integrated 16 hp. I'm guessing there is enough difference in how hp integrates from an ICE compared to an electric drive, but I really don't know.

[Doug Garson]

sounds like diesel locomotives in miniature ;)

A little googling tells me that a diesel train can move 1 ton of freight >470 miles on a gallon of fuel... I see no reason a generator based electric car couldn't run indefinitely without charging...
Rolling resistance of steel wheels on steel rails is much less than pneumatic rubber tires on asphalt. But more importantly, if a generator based car ran indefinitely it would be the mythological perpetual motion machine. Actually it is continually charging until the gas runs out.

[Mike Henderson]

From the article (which has no independent attributions):

"The engine-driven generator can handle the demand from the main motor up to speeds of about 50 miles per hour. The "stored" energy in the batteries comes into play at higher velocities, giving extra kick for passing and climbing hills."

"As far as the driving range is concerned, Dave points out that the car can travel unlimited distances—if driven carefully—because the motor has a low draw at cruising speeds: only 0.23 amps at 1,800 RPM. Since the Briggs & Stratton engine turns at a fixed rate and can generate 100 amps at about 28 1/2 volts, normal driving presents no problem."

My guess is that the jet engine starter motor/generator is tremendously efficient, once this steerable coffin on wheels gets moving. The battery bank is really operating in parallel to the generator - to provide amperage during peak demand, and to buffer return current during braking.

At .23 A driving the nominal speed of 50 mph described, 75 mpg does seem at least plausible. I would like to see something like this mocked up using a Fuel Cell stack out of a forklift instead of a B&S thumper.

But still, this was cobbled together in 1979 and actually worked.

It proves (yet again) that I'm neither a Futurist nor remotely aware of what inventors are up to. Imagine what's happening- today.https://youtu.be/PCSNCs7bwCw




The gasoline motor driving the generator is listed as a 5HP motor and drives a 100 amp generator at 28 1/2 volts. That's 2850VA max. That's about 3.8HP not accounting for any losses.

If he can cruise with 0.23 amps at 28.5 volts, that's 6.55VA. As I stated earlier, since a HP is about 750 Watts (without considering losses), that's 0.00874 HP at cruise. Anyone who believes you can power a full size car at "cruise speed" with 0.00874 HP is fooling themselves.

Mike

[I suspect "it worked" when the batteries were fully charged, and when you used the car, the batteries ran down pretty quickly. Then you waited by the side of the road while the generator re-charged the batteries.]

[Doug Garson]

0.23 amps at 28.5 volts works out to just over 6 hp if the converter I used is correct, is it reasonable to believe you only need 6 hp to cruise at 50 mph? Don't know, just asking.
Oops, looks like I misread the converter I used, looks more like 0.008 hp as Mike posted, no way that's real.

[Steve Demuth]

The gasoline motor driving the generator is listed as a 5HP motor and drives a 100 amp generator at 28 1/2 volts. That's 2850VA max. That's about 3.8HP not accounting for any losses.

If he can cruise with 0.23 amps at 28.5 volts, that's 6.55VA. As I stated earlier, since a HP is about 750 Watts (without considering losses), that's 0.00874 HP at cruise. Anyone who believes you can power a full size car at "cruise speed" with 0.00874 HP is fooling themselves.


6.5 watts is roughly what you can get (for short period) out of a single D-cell. So, yeah, not going to run a car down the road at 50mph.

But to be fair, the .23 amp figure was a misprint, corrected in a later edition of the magazine. The intended claim was 23amps. Still absurd at .8HP - missing one more zero, one suspects.

The Mother Earth News gang built their own version of the hybrid around a Subaru and a Lombardini diesel and observed:


In reality, the motors that we bench-tested at 30 volts had free-running draws of about 40 amps at 4,800 RPM ... which—under load on the highway at 30 volts—increased to 100-150 amps on level ground at 30 miles per hour, with the car in third gear.

So now they are "cruising" at 30mph using between 4 and 8 hp. Zero located.

[Jim Matthews]

Weight isn't a major factor for cruise power; I suspect they're only using it as a first-order approximation for tire/rolling resistance. The Opel GT does have a small(ish) frontal area, but is probably less aerodynamic (higher Cd) than it looks.

Wikipedia lists a Cd of 3.

Probably derived in a windtunnel with crepe paper streamers.

Still - this clinking, clanking cacophony of caliginous junk actually ran down the road without killing the operator.

Compared to even 4 bangers of its day, this thing was a has miser.

[Doug Garson]

Good detective work Steve. Realistically, if you start with gasoline as the prime fuel, why would burning it in a internal combustion engine (with losses) to drive a generator (with losses) to generate electricity to run an electric motor ( with losses) be more efficient than just burning it in the ICE (with lisses) to drive the wheels? The only thing you gain is regenerative braking so maybe in stop and go traffic you might come out ahead but not cruising at 50 mph.

[Jim Matthews]

[I suspect "it worked" when the batteries were fully charged, and when you used the car, the batteries ran down pretty quickly. Then you waited by the side of the road while the generator re-charged the batteries.]

As described in the first article, the batteries are held as reserve for peak current demand. Honda's first Insight hybrid IMA system worked this way.

The battery system captures some of the momentum during braking using the drive motor as a generator to be sent back out to the wheels on acceleration. This is a huge fuel saving feature.

We're concentrating on the little gas motor, but it's the belt driven generator that escapes attention. That component would have a variable load, requiring sophisticated management.

The FSR routes power four ways - direct drive to the motor, trickle current to the battery stack, regen braking to the battery stack and DC from the battery to the motor.

I'm guessing this part of the equation was problematic in 1979.

[Mike Henderson]

30 volts at 150 amps is 4500VA. In reality, you need more than 750 watts for a HP, but even at 750, that's only 6HP. With losses it's probably under 5HP, and 150 amps is more than the generator can supply. No matter what, the generator cannot supply more than 5Hp because that's the size of the motor driving the generator. With losses, the output from the generator has to be less than 5HP.

At 100 amps at 30 volts, that's 3000VA, or an ideal case 4HP. More likely closer to 3HP. That does not produce a realistic vehicle. It would be extremely slow.

Mike

[Brian Elfert]

There's a great deal of prognostication from people who can't see over their own past.

We are in the midst of a rapid change to electrification, and it's lead by commercial users.

Fleet conversions to EV drivetrains, with battery or Fuel Cell stacks are happening today, and on a surprisingly large scale.

https://insideevs.com/news/392555/video-amazon-electric-delivery-trucks/

https://www.carsforsale.com/ford-transit-connect-electric-for-sale-C137302

https://lightningemotors.com/

Companies that are spending a ton of money on buying new vehicles and converting them to electric are mostly doing it to gain a "green" reputation with various environmental groups. Amazon has a bad rap with environmental groups due to all the fossil fuels they burn to keep their delivery network running.

No company is doing commercial conversions of new vehicles to electric today to save money. There doesn't seem to be any financial savings by the time you spend as much as the vehicle cost to convert it to electric. It will more financial sense once these vehicles come from the factory with electric drivetrains with no conversion necessary.

[Jim Matthews]

Companies that are spending a ton of money on buying new vehicles and converting them to electric are mostly doing it to gain a "green" reputation with various environmental groups.

That's a claim to understand what motivates a concern like Amazon.
There are many ways to advertise, certainly.

https://blog.aboutamazon.com/sustainability/what-is-shipment-zero



Amazon has a bad rap with environmental groups due to all the fossil fuels they burn to keep their delivery network running.

The focus of attention is on Amazon, where logistics indicate a full truck driving to multiple customers produces less emissions than each customer driving to shop alone. The deserved knock is against next day shipping which increases emissions.

That's on the customer - not the purveyor.

https://footwearnews.com/2019/business/retail/online-in-store-shopping-impact-environment-1202788336/




No company is doing commercial conversions of new vehicles to electric today to save money. There doesn't seem to be any financial savings by the time you spend as much as the vehicle cost to convert it to electric. It will more financial sense once these vehicles come from the factory with electric drivetrains with no conversion necessary.

No doubt - however the verified existence of a small fleet of Transit EV (converted by Lightning repower) indicates the platform makes enough sense to invest in the expense.

Amazon's buying scale means they pay less per unit (both the stock van and swapped drivetrains) and have a financial case to be made regarding power savings. Remember that most of a driver's day in congested areas is spent searching for parking, idling or stopped.

In the Boston area, deliveries are made from a secure parking space to multiple addresses.

The Rivian initial order is for 100,000 units. No numbers available on the converted Transit vans.

*****

Changes in the US tax code likely drive this, as the depreciation schedule was accelerated (effectively a subsidy to encourage new vehicles purchases).

"Benefits under the law, which begin to phase out in 2022, double the amount of depreciation cost companies can claim for the first year of vehicle ownership — to as much as 100% in some cases. That makes it easier to buy the vehicles, which start at around $30,000.
While the tax reform and stepped-up competition for parcel deliveries have goosed fleet sales, it’s unclear how much longer this segment of the industry will be able to buoy the broader U.S. auto market. Dealers expect to sell fewer than 17 million new cars and trucks in 2020 after a five-year run above that threshold."

https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2019-12-19/amazons-self-delivery-blitz-is-a-boon-to-van-makers





*****

The point is we're shifting focus from a shade tree stage to full industrial output on a national scale. When this happens, prices come down.

See: LS swap

[Steve Demuth]

Good detective work Steve. Realistically, if you start with gasoline as the prime fuel, why would burning it in a internal combustion engine (with losses) to drive a generator (with losses) to generate electricity to run an electric motor ( with losses) be more efficient than just burning it in the ICE (with lisses) to drive the wheels? The only thing you gain is regenerative braking so maybe in stop and go traffic you might come out ahead but not cruising at 50 mph.

Yes, and we know exactly what this looks like when real engineers design it with real data and an ISO factory to build it. The road is full of 3rd generation Priuses, which are essentially the car these garage mechanics were trying to build, with advanced battery technology to replace the lead acid cells in their experiment, a highly optimized drive train that combines the electric motor/generator(s) with planetary transmissions to create a true multi-source, CVT, a highly efficient Atkinson-cycle ICE, and the best aerodynamic profile you can probably get out of a passenger sedan.

I've owned 4 of them. In perfect conditions - level road, dry air in the 60s or 70s (so no heater and no air conditioner), properly inflated tires, you can get 60mpg for extended stretches of continuous travel. In realistic conditions you get somewhere between the low 40s and low 50s.

I would be very surprised if anyone ever designs a better (from an efficiency point of view) ICE-electric hybrid passenger car.

So, astonishing a feat as those late 70s garage mechanic experiments were, I'd bet my last ever Prius (we've got a Volt now, in which the ICE rarely runs for 8 months of the year, and provides only half the energy we need the other 4, and will go fully electric next time) were not getting 50 mpg in real use.

Except I can't because I'm trading the Prius and an older Tacoma in tomorrow for what may be the last 5-speed manual, non-extended cab light pickup for sale in the midwest. Ever, the way things look. But that was a different thread.

[Jim Matthews]

Realistically, if you start with gasoline as the prime fuel, why would burning it in a internal combustion engine (with losses) to drive a generator (with losses) to generate electricity to run an electric motor ( with losses) be more efficient than just burning it in the ICE (with lisses) to drive the wheels? The only thing you gain is regenerative braking so maybe in stop and go traffic you might come out ahead but not cruising at 50 mph.

So many things you've got wrong there.

http://autocaat.org/Technologies/Hybrid_and_Battery_Electric_Vehicles/HEV_Types/#:~:text=A%20series%20hybrid%20is%20like,motor%20t hat%20moves%20the%20vehicle

The advantage of hybrid systems is that each motor operates in it's most efficient range.

The Kia Optima PHEV illustrates this quite clearly.
Compare the hybrid version to the stock GDI.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/39783.shtml

[Jim Becker]

Can anyone explain the physics behind the 75 mpg Opel hybrid? You are still using a gasoline engine as the only source of power. Is there that much efficiency gain from running the gas engine at fixed (assume most efficient ) rpm plus regenerative braking? Or do they not include gas burned to charge the batteries when the car isn't moving?

Small engine that's just producing electric power generation...same way the Chevy Volt was set up. You do burn fuel, but the engine is small and sips compared to an ICE engine that's actually providing direct motive power to the drivetrain.

[Brian Elfert]

No doubt - however the verified existence of a small fleet of Transit EV (converted by Lightning repower) indicates the platform makes enough sense to invest in the expense.

Amazon's buying scale means they pay less per unit (both the stock van and swapped drivetrains) and have a financial case to be made regarding power savings. Remember that most of a driver's day in congested areas is spent searching for parking, idling or stopped.

In the Boston area, deliveries are made from a secure parking space to multiple addresses.

The Rivian initial order is for 100,000 units. No numbers available on the converted Transit vans.


I never said I had any doubt that Amazon is buying electric delivery vehicles. What I said is an vehicle converted to electric is probably not going to save any money over the lifecycle of the vehicle versus an ICE vehicle.

Rivian is making fully electric vehicles from the ground up that will likely sell for less than a vehicle that is converted to electric. These vehicles will also likely cost less over the lifecycle of the vehicle. Electric transit buses are very expensive to purchase up front, but over the twelve year life of the vehicle they save money. The big money savings is in repairs and maintenance. Of course, most taxpayers don't like electric buses because all they see is the upfront cost is several hundred thousand dollars higher.

[Doug Dawson]

Companies that are spending a ton of money on buying new vehicles and converting them to electric are mostly doing it to gain a "green" reputation with various environmental groups. Amazon has a bad rap with environmental groups due to all the fossil fuels they burn to keep their delivery network running.

No company is doing commercial conversions of new vehicles to electric today to save money. There doesn't seem to be any financial savings by the time you spend as much as the vehicle cost to convert it to electric. It will more financial sense once these vehicles come from the factory with electric drivetrains with no conversion necessary.

Amazon has never had a problem with losing money in pursuit of a long-term goal (in this case zero-emissions.) So much of it is driven by Jeff Bezos’ vision (and yes, I am an investor.)

Hmm, I wonder if his space operations’ “losses” could be written off, or would the IRS disallow it, given that it’s clearly a hobby. ;^)

[Brian Elfert]

Hmm, I wonder if his space operations’ “losses” could be written off, or would the IRS disallow it, given that it’s clearly a hobby. ;^)

I'll never pretend to understand how US tax regulations work. I always thought a business had to make money in something like three out of seven years to deduct business expenses from income. The intent of the law is to stop people from running a "business" simply as a tax shelter. There are plenty of large businesses that lost money for many years yet were still treated as a regular business by the IRS.

[Doug Garson]

Small engine that's just producing electric power generation...same way the Chevy Volt was set up. You do burn fuel, but the engine is small and sips compared to an ICE engine that's actually providing direct motive power to the drivetrain.
Don't see how the size of the engine makes a difference, in the end you are doing x amount of work based on how far and fast the car moved and how fast it accelerated. I think it must be because the engine runs at a constant (optimum) speed and regenerative braking converts lost energy from braking into stored energy in the battery. Don't understand how the size of the engine makes that much of a difference if the work done is the same.

[Mike Henderson]

Don't see how the size of the engine makes a difference, in the end you are doing x amount of work based on how far and fast the car moved and how fast it accelerated. I think it must be because the engine runs at a constant (optimum) speed and regenerative braking converts lost energy from braking into stored energy in the battery. Don't understand how the size of the engine makes that much of a difference if the work done is the same.

I suspect that when you size a gasoline engine to a specific, essentially fixed load you can get better economy than if you have an engine that can produce a lot of excess horsepower. For most ICE vehicles the engine is much larger than needed for cruising down the highway. In a hybrid vehicle you can use the batteries to make up the extra needed power for peak load which allows you to put a much smaller engine in the vehicle.

Mike

[Doug Garson]

[QUOTE=Jim Matthews;3068665]So many things you've got wrong there.

http://autocaat.org/Technologies/Hybrid_and_Battery_Electric_Vehicles/HEV_Types/#:~:text=A%20series%20hybrid%20is%20like,motor%20t hat%20moves%20the%20vehicle

The advantage of hybrid systems is that each motor operates in it's most efficient range.

The Kia Optima PHEV illustrates this quite clearly.
Compare the hybrid version to the stock GDI.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/39783.shtml[/QUOTE
Agree that hybrids are more fuel efficient, just trying to understand the physics behind it. Not sure the linked sites explain the physics. Suspect it's because the gas engine runs at constant optimized speed like you say and regenerative braking saves lost energy from braking.

[Steve Demuth]

[QUOTE=Jim Matthews;3068665]
Agree that hybrids are more fuel efficient, just trying to understand the physics behind it. Not sure the linked sites explain the physics. Suspect it's because the gas engine runs at constant optimized speed like you say and regenerative braking saves lost energy from braking.

Yes, there are multiple things going on in a hybrid to make them the most fuel efficient internal engine powered cars on the road:

1. The ICE in a hybrid can be optimized for fuel efficiency, because the hybrid drive train can be optimized for torque, instant availability, etc. That means in a Prius, e.g., using an Atkinson cycle engine, and turning it off whenever the vehicle is not moving, or is coasting for extended periods. In those old Mother Earth News hybrids, they attempted that by using a very small, low hp engine and running it only at maximally efficient RPMs. I say attempted because a 5 hp Briggs is still not a very efficient fuel converter.

2. The selection of power source can be fully optimized by the multiple-input, planetary transmission. A computer can choose the optimal combination of ICE power, battery power to drive train or drive train to battery based entirely on the demand or availability of motive power from the wheels. This drives automotive buffs nuts, because in a hybrid, you have no direct input to the ICE through the controls - you tell the car how fast you want to go, and it decides how to run the ICE and the electrics to move the car, and, of course, the transmission is completely and seamlessly continuous variable, so don't even know it's there.

3. Lower drag coefficient. This is not actually part of the hybrid design, but in the most efficient hybrids available (Prius), it's a major component of their actual fuel efficiency. That is, the Prius gets top line efficiency not just by delivering power optimally, but by needing significantly less energy overall.

[Jim Matthews]

the transmission is completely and seamlessly continuous variable, so don't even know it's there.

3. Lower drag coefficient. This is not actually part of the hybrid design, but in the most efficient hybrids available (Prius), it's a major component of their actual fuel efficiency. That is, the Prius gets top line efficiency not just by delivering power optimally, but by needing significantly less energy overall.

These two aspects surprised me most about the Prius : the drivetrain is really clever, they don't look "fast" but the wind tunnel sez otherwise.

https://hybridautopart.com/blog/toyota-prius-power-split-device/

[Steve Demuth]

the drivetrain is really clever

Yeah, one of the most elegant combinations of mechanical, electrical and computer engineering I've ever seen. I particularly like the way they added 2 electric motor/generators to the planetary transmission. That gives the car direct electric drive through the primary electric motor and a simple gear reduction system attached the ring gear of the planetary, along with very flexible balancing act between the smaller electric attached to the sun gear, and the ICE driving the planetary spider. A naïve implementation would be an ICE, an electric motor, and the output of the planetary system driving the car. The second motor/generator just gives you so much finesse in the power paths.

[Jim Becker]

I'll never pretend to understand how US tax regulations work. I always thought a business had to make money in something like three out of seven years to deduct business expenses from income. The intent of the law is to stop people from running a "business" simply as a tax shelter. There are plenty of large businesses that lost money for many years yet were still treated as a regular business by the IRS.

There's no requirement to show a profit in order to claim expenses...in the short term. But longer term, it can become a factor. That's very apt for small businesses, BTW, when the "business or hobby" thing comes into play. That's kinda what Doug was joking about. I guess you can call the space operations a "small business" compared to the rest of Amazon. :) :D

[Bob Turkovich]

A driveover wireless pad for charging your EV vehicle...

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2020/11/28/electric-cars-wireless-charging-pads/6428778002/

The important thing is that SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) already has developed a standard for this which should focus implementation rather than everybody trying to develop this on their own.

[Bill Dufour]

The IRS says to be not a hobby you must make a profit in 3 of five years, 2 in seven for horses, They do not enforce the must make a profit rules for real estate. ... The assumption is the real estate is increasing in value even when it is not being sold.
Bil lD

[Scott Donley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBUfNxfc2w4<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBUfNxfc2w4" target="_blank">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBUfNxfc2w4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBUfNxfc2w4)

[Mike Henderson]

A driveover wireless pad for charging your EV vehicle...

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2020/11/28/electric-cars-wireless-charging-pads/6428778002/

The important thing is that SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) already has developed a standard for this which should focus implementation rather than everybody trying to develop this on their own.

It's hard to see how this could charge a car in a decent amount of time. Power can be transferred efficiently in a transformer but the two coils are on top of each other and there's an iron core guide the magnetic field. Having the sending coil a foot or more from the receiving coil (and with not core) makes for inefficient coupling. Plus, the car has to carry around the weight of the receiving coil all the time.

Mike

[Jim Matthews]

It's hard to see how this could charge a car in a decent amount of time. Power can be transferred efficiently in a transformer but the two coils are on top of each other and there's an iron core guide the magnetic field. Having the sending coil a foot or more from the receiving coil (and with not core) makes for inefficient coupling. Plus, the car has to carry around the weight of the receiving coil all the time.

Mike

Claim from the article:

"The system delivers DC current up to 11 kilowatts at the maximum voltage the vehicle can accept over up to 10 inches of space between a pad mounted on the floor to a receiver on the vehicle. Charging efficiency is up to 94%, comparable to wired connections."

That's faster than my Siemens level 2 charger.
https://new.siemens.com/us/en/products/energy/topics/transportation-electrification/versicharge-solutions/versicharge-residential-ev-charging.html

[Mike Henderson]

Claim from the article:

"The system delivers DC current up to 11 kilowatts at the maximum voltage the vehicle can accept over up to 10 inches of space between a pad mounted on the floor to a receiver on the vehicle. Charging efficiency is up to 94%, comparable to wired connections."

That's faster than my Siemens level 2 charger.
https://new.siemens.com/us/en/products/energy/topics/transportation-electrification/versicharge-solutions/versicharge-residential-ev-charging.html

I read that claim, also. Just hard to see how they can do that.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I read that claim, also. Just hard to see how they can do that.

Mike

Would a focused DC pulsing coil have less power loss than a continuous AC coil?

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Would a focused DC pulsing coil have less power loss than a continuous AC coil?

jtk

I can't see how it would make any difference. The way induction coupling works is that a magnetic field is created and then reverses (or collapses). A voltage is induced in the other coil by the magnetic lines of force cutting the wires of the second coil.

In a transformer, the coils are tightly wound around an iron core that directs and contains the magnetic field so that most of the magnetic lines of force cut the secondary coil.

When you have a coil out in the open, the magnetic field would tend to spread out so that some of the magnetic lines of force will not cut the wires of the secondary coil. The further apart the two coils, the worse the coupling will be. With things like an iPhone lying on a charging pad, at least the two coils are pretty close to each other.

But transformer design was not my specialty so there's a lot I don't know. I'm sure the engineers who design this stuff know what they're doing.

Mike

[Assuming that the sending coil is just a coil lying horizontally, the magnetic lines of force will be in the shape of a torus. The closer the secondary coil is to the sending coil, and if the secondary coil is the optimum size, the more lines of force will be cut, and the better the coupling.]

[Doug Garson]

Seems like one of the issues that needs to be addressed is universality of charging stations. Right now, Tesla has built a network of fast charging stations that only Tesla's can use. They can even prevent specific Teslas like those that have been rebuilt from salvage from charging. From one perspective it is free enterprise and they have the right to use their Supercharger network to help promote the sales of their cars, on the other hand if the goal is to promote electric vehicles to fight climate change, exclusive charging stations is counterproductive. Imagine if your Ford could only be fueled at a Ford gas station?

[Andrew Joiner]

A driveover wireless pad for charging your EV vehicle...

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/mark-phelan/2020/11/28/electric-cars-wireless-charging-pads/6428778002/

The important thing is that SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) already has developed a standard for this which should focus implementation rather than everybody trying to develop this on their own.

Thanks Bob. That would be cool if it works. Much tougher to make it work with gasoline:)

[Jim Koepke]

Once the drive over pads are worked out it may even become a charge in motion ability.

This could even lead to driverless vehicles on select roads.

Be careful of what is believed as impossible. Someone else will come along and imagine just how possible it is.

No one makes a fortune believing something is impossible. Imagining possibilities is where one can find 'the pot of gold'.

jtk

[Bill Dufour]

Do they still make slot cars?

[Brian Elfert]

Once the drive over pads are worked out it may even become a charge in motion ability.

This could even lead to driverless vehicles on select roads.

Be careful of what is believed as impossible. Someone else will come along and imagine just how possible it is.

No one makes a fortune believing something is impossible. Imagining possibilities is where one can find 'the pot of gold'.


I think right now charge in motion is simply impractical, not impossible.

I bet you won't see charge in motion in a state highway paid for from state funds for at least ten years. State highway departments aren't likely to want to install the technology until it is well proven. The two challenges I see are preventing corrosion from salt and how to charge drivers for the electricity. Most highways are only rebuilt from the ground up about every 50 years if they are concrete. That could be a long time to wait to add the technology without a proven way top retrofit the technology in existing pavement.

[Jim Becker]

I think right now charge in motion is simply impractical, not impossible.

There is currently a test going on in Norway (I believe) for in-road powering for mass transit. I suspect there are other trials out there, too, even if minimal. If direct "wireless" energy transfer can function for that kind of application, it also bodes well for charging applications, too.

I agree that there are and will be challenges including for the things you mention. But I'm also confident those things will get worked out. Probably not in many our lifetimes, however... ;)

[Jim Koepke]

I think right now charge in motion is simply impractical, not impossible.

I bet you won't see charge in motion in a state highway paid for from state funds for at least ten years. State highway departments aren't likely to want to install the technology until it is well proven. The two challenges I see are preventing corrosion from salt and how to charge drivers for the electricity. Most highways are only rebuilt from the ground up about every 50 years if they are concrete. That could be a long time to wait to add the technology without a proven way top retrofit the technology in existing pavement.

Oh yee of little faith in science and technology…

Many states have toll roads and bridges paid via an in car transponder, charging lanes could work with a similar system.

If the dreamers believe it, they will achieve it.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

Oh yee of little faith in science and technology…

Many states have toll roads and bridges paid via an in car transponder, charging lanes could work with a similar system.


It will almost certainly happen, but it isn't going to be as easy as toll transponders. Toll transponders just send your account number to the receiving antenna. Calculating how much to charge a driver for charging their car is quite another thing. There are all kinds of variables on how much electricity a particular car used. Do you trust the car to accurately report how much power it used, or does the power system have to measure how much power each car uses? If the car reports power usage you know thieves are going to try to hack the system.

There are all kinds of claims as to how efficient wireless charging will be versus charging via a cable. The efficiency claims for a stationary wireless charging pad are between 75% and about 92% right now. At 75% I would rather plug in my car when it is stationary.

[Jim Matthews]

The focus of this approach is vehicles that regularly drive between major metropolitan centers. It's likely intended for long haul trucking and motorcoaches.

The Swedish experiment specifically mentioned the extreme cost of electrifying rail traffic versus retrofitting paved roads.

I expect the advent of higher capacity batteries, at lower weight will render the approach redundant.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[Bill Dufour]

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Is-it-a-bus-or-is-it-a-trolley-New-SF-Muni-fleet-14494037.php

[Jim Matthews]

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Is-it-a-bus-or-is-it-a-trolley-New-SF-Muni-fleet-14494037.php

Still viable on fixed routes. Siemens had a test bed operating near Frankfurt as recently as 2017.

The apparatus is impractical for smaller vehicles and has a significant (negative) impact on drag.

https://electrek.co/2017/08/11/electric-truck-charging-overhead-contact-charging-autobahn-germany/

[Mike Henderson]

I did some reading on stationary wireless charging. Apparently the leading contender is a resonate circuit approach. You can read more about the different approaches here. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S221509861830154X)

Mike

[Brian Elfert]

I don't quite understand how the track in the road works. Wouldn't the vehicles need to be nearly centered in the lane to make it work? How does engaging and disengaging work?

I'll have to see if I can find an article about that system.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't quite understand how the track in the road works. Wouldn't the vehicles need to be nearly centered in the lane to make it work? How does engaging and disengaging work?

I'll have to see if I can find an article about that system.

The article I posted the link to has some stuff about dynamic charging (charging while moving).

Mike

[Jim Becker]

I don't quite understand how the track in the road works. Wouldn't the vehicles need to be nearly centered in the lane to make it work? How does engaging and disengaging work?

I would presume that centering was part of the deal, but automatic lane centering features are becoming popular on many vehicles already, so that piece is already somewhat available in the industry.

[Jim Matthews]

I would presume that centering was part of the deal, but automatic lane centering features are becoming popular on many vehicles already, so that piece is already somewhat available in the industry.

There's a Video on The Guardian, showing a spring mounted swing arm beneath the vehicle. It seems obvious that keeping a trench clear in the middle of a road - and energized in the rain - is a challenge.

There must be an optimal speed to connect.

The takeaway was that modifying roads was considerably less expensive than electrifying existing rail.

[Jim Becker]

I'm currently thinking that in-road charging/power and autonomous "driving" will go hand-in-hand which also addresses the speed thing which in turn theoretically helps with traffic management. But I also suspect that's a ways off other than for trials and testing. There will be a lot more autonomous vehicles on the road long before the infrastructure can be upgraded to support in-road power/charging.

[Brian Elfert]

One of the articles said the Swedish track only produces one volt at the road surface when the road is covered with wet salty water. I would think that a bunch of what is essentially salt brine down inside the track would cause serious electrical issues. I suppose smarter people than me have figured it out.

[Jim Matthews]

I think today's approach will be augmented by further improvements in basic efficiency. Cars that weigh less and are shaped more like a fish than a cinder block, for starters.

If you could squeeze 10 miles per kWh out of a battery, 1000 mile range would be in reach.

The physics of drag, inertia and friction are constants regardless of the power source.

Personally, I expect a boom in rail and inland river freight in the next Century. That's low hanging fruit.

[Jim Becker]

I agree that here in the US, there needs to be actual investment in high speed rail going forward and not just between the metropolitan complexes on the east coast. For a number of reasons, including some we can't discuss here, it's been difficult to fund even a beginning for that.

[Mike Henderson]

I agree that here in the US, there needs to be actual investment in high speed rail going forward and not just between the metropolitan complexes on the east coast. For a number of reasons, including some we can't discuss here, it's been difficult to fund even a beginning for that.

Here in California there's a project to build high speed rail between San Francisco and Los Angeles. I doubt if it will ever be completed. There are multiple airlines flying between those two cities and the fares are pretty cheap. Additional flights between alternate cities close to those two (such as Santa Ana outside Los Angeles to SF) And I doubt if the high speed rail will ever achieve the kind of transit times that have been promised. The routes that will likely be settled upon will not allow full speed operation. There's all kind of "not in my backyard" opposition to the route.

Some people may use it - if it's ever completed - but I really doubt if the ridership will ever pay for the project.

Mike

[A more reasonable project would be LA to Las Vegas. The route would be through mostly undeveloped land and I can see people taking a train between those two cities. Las Vegas would welcome such a route and do anything to help.]

[Jim Koepke]

There's all kind of "not in my backyard" opposition to the route.

There is also a lot of speculation going on where people are buying land in the right of way for the planned route.

My employer before retirement was deeply involved in some of the planning. My father used to always say it wasn't a transportation system it was an empire being built by bureaucrats. One of my supervisors insisted it was one of the ways the government puts more money into circulation.

For more info on the state of affairs > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail

If it is more convenient than getting to and from airports it may change how folks travel. If people can get from the airport to a train station it might change travel to & from the smaller cities in between the larger cities. There are flight from Longview/Kelso, but it isn't a convenient airport for most travelers. It is imaginable airports like Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto and others are also not of great convenience.

People will eventually accept that the world is changing and we will have to change along with it.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

If it is more convenient than getting to and from airports it may change how folks travel. If people can get from the airport to a train station it might change travel to & from the smaller cities in between the larger cities. There are flight from Longview/Kelso, but it isn't a convenient airport for most travelers. It is imaginable airports like Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto and others are also not of great convenience.

jtk

The train system may well provide service to those smaller cities but there are not enough people going to and from them to make the system profitable. If that high speed rail system is to be profitable, it has to attract a lot of travelers going between LA and SF. That's where the volume is and that's what the airlines serve.

Mike

[Bill Dufour]

I believe that the San Francisco airport is still the only one with a subway station inside the airport.
Bil lD

[Mike Henderson]

I believe that the San Francisco airport is still the only one with a subway station inside the airport.
Bil lD

LA is scheduled to have a subway connection to LAX but I don't know when. It's an obvious thing to do.

Mike

[Bill Dufour]

I believe the Richmond California BART station is the only railroad station that also has a subway station. They purposely made the BART tracks to Russian/India gauge so regular railcars can not go there.
Bil lD

[David Bassett]

I believe that the San Francisco airport is still the only one with a subway station inside the airport.
Bil lD

It's a stub-line that branches from the main BART line between San Bruno and Millbrae. Depending on the time of day the trains the run out to the airport and back between the San Bruno & Millbrae stops. At other times trains from San Francisco run thru San Bruno to either SFO or Millbrae, at those times getting to/from Millbrae and SFO requires a transfer in San Bruno.

There's also a shuttle / light rail / people mover thing in Oakland you can transfer to get to Oakland Airport (OAK). (Last time I did it it was just a shuttle bus, but that was probably 40 years ago.)



I believe the Richmond California BART station is the only railroad station that also has a subway station. They purposely made the BART tracks to Russian/India gauge so regular railcars can not go there.
Bil lD

I'm not sure about Richmond, but that'd be Amtrak up there. There might be a transfer station somewhere in Oakland, the tracks are close for a stretch along there, but again I'm not sure the transfer point was actually made.

There is a shared CalTrain / BART station in Millbrae. From there CalTrain would normally be used to get down the peninsula to San Jose, but could also be used to get up to the other side of San Francisco. CalTrain connects, actually shares a station IIRC, with Amtrak in San Jose. Eventually, they say, BART will also reach that station. (It's finally reached San Jose, way out at the outskirts now, but they have plans.)

Yes, BART (and Washington DC's Metro) use a non-standard track gauge. In hindsight it was a stupid decision. (Sadly one of many BART management has made.) But unlike other of their mistakes it at least had some reasonable points in it's favor too.

I'm sure our East Coast members could offer examples of poor decisions made by their transit authorities over the years, but here in California we certainly haven't mastered the problem and have plenty to complain about, at least in hindsight. LA's Metro, (billions now?), repurchased and rebuild the line my Mom rode, with her Mom, to go shopping in LA when she was in grade school. Ignoring the multi-millions it cost, it amused her greatly to ride the new version to take my sisters shopping in LA, as she'd with her mom done decades before.

[Jim Koepke]

I believe that the San Francisco airport is still the only one with a subway station inside the airport.
Bil lD

Oakland has an overhead rail to the BART station. It is right outside the terminal.

It is a cable system > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coliseum%E2%80%93Oakland_International_Airport_lin e

jtk

[Jim Becker]

In SE PA, SEPTA (regional rail) has an airport line which services all terminals at PHL. The last time I flew, I used it when returning home as I chose not to pay for parking for that particular emergency trip to Florida. I can theoretically get to within about 6 miles of our home which is 50 miles from the airport via the Interstate. The airport line also connects folks to AMTRAK so if they fly in or out of Philadelphia, they have convenient access to NYC or farther south if they choose.

I actually hope that line between San Francisco and LA, etc., does get built out...while the short hops on airlines fill the need right now, a high speed train would likely be more efficient, more flexible and better environmentally for both air and noise. It would likely also take some of the traffic off the Interstate highways between these areas. Extending it south to San Diego and north toward Sacramento would be icing on the cake, IMHO.

[Jim Koepke]

It would likely also take some of the traffic off the Interstate highways between these areas. Extending it south to San Diego and north toward Sacramento would be icing on the cake, IMHO.

From Sacramento it would be great if they could extend it all the way to Portland and Seattle. The Amtrack train on that route was standing room only a few years ago when my daughter and grandkids boarded here to head home to Richmond, CA.

One of my coworkers would always say how he wouldn't mind paying some extra taxes for high speed rail if it got cars off of the road so he wouldn't have to sit in traffic.

While searching to find if an old story, Losing Track by Judith Goldsmith was still online this was found > https://www.7x7.com/secret-san-francisco-the-key-system-1781842084.html < The original was in a now defunct newspaper called the East Bay Express. In my opinion the Judith Goldsmith article was much better and didn't mess up how the naming of the Key System came about:


On the cap of each of Smith's ferryboat captains was a gold key; a key symbol also appeared over the ferryboat docks. The key's tines stood for the ferryboat slots at the wharf at the end of Yerba Buena Avenue; the body of the key stood for the line from the wharf along Yerba Buena Avenue into the city; and the curlicues on its handle stood for the routes to Berkeley, Claremont, Piedmont, and Oakland. This key symbol and the "Key System" nickname stuck.

jtk

[David Bassett]

... One of my coworkers would always say how he wouldn't mind paying some extra taxes for high speed rail if it got cars off of the road so he wouldn't have to sit in traffic. ...


Sadly, that seems to be a minority opinion. At least when I've tried to make that argument to anti-transit folks, it's fallen on deaf ears. (I mean almost every rider on BART, CalTrain, or the other options is one less car stuck with you in gridlock on the freeways. Why isn't that a good thing for everyone?)


Since we're off topic, my Mom took a little extra pleasure from the movie Rodger Rabbit because part of the background story was building freeways to take out the trolley she'd grown up with! :)

[Jim Koepke]

Sadly, that seems to be a minority opinion. At least when I've tried to make that argument to anti-transit folks, it's fallen on deaf ears. (I mean almost every rider on BART, CalTrain, or the other options is one less car stuck with you in gridlock on the freeways. Why isn't that a good thing for everyone?)


Since we're off topic, my Mom took a little extra pleasure from the movie Rodger Rabbit because part of the background story was building freeways to take out the trolley she'd grown up with! :)

There is information on this in the Judith Goldsmith article:


In 1946, the still-popular Key System was purchased by National City Lines, a holding company of American City Lines, which was purchasing transit systems around the US. The stock of this company, as mentioned earlier, was held in part by automotive, gas, and tire interests. It was no surprise when the company began dismantling electric car lines one by one and running shiny new buses over the same routes

Wayne Gallup remembers the change well "I went into the army in 1956 and when I came out two years later, the trains were gone. I've never met anybody who liked the buses better."


If there wasn't a possibility of copyright issues the full article could be posted. It was still online many years ago and felt like something that should be saved. Not sure if there is anyone around who would express copyright infringement for something published in 1983 on the pages of a now defunct newspaper.

A check was done online and there is an East Bay Express web site. A note was sent to the editor to see if it would be okay to post the article here.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

One of my coworkers would always say how he wouldn't mind paying some extra taxes for high speed rail if it got cars off of the road so he wouldn't have to sit in traffic.


Part of the problem is there are way too many drivers who have the thought that others will take various forms of transit so their commute will be faster. There aren't enough people taking transit outside of a few large cities with large transit systems. Even if some cars are taken off the road there are other cars waiting to take up that space. Look up induced demand. It becomes easier to drive during rush hour so more people drive and fill up any empty space on the highways. This is why adding lanes to highways generally doesn't reduce congestion except for short term. People think that now that congestion is less they'll buy a house further out that is cheaper, or they'll take that job further from home because the commute is no longer as bad. Enough people do this and the lanes fill up.

A lot of people who want us to reduce driving don't like autonomous cars because they believe miles traveled will go up significantly. If one can work in their car then people will be willing to tolerate a longer commute. People who can't currently drive for a variety of reasons could use an autonomous car.

[Jim Becker]

There will be many habits that will need to change for "this future" of transportation to come about...that's likely a bigger challenge than funding the public side of it!

[Bill Dufour]

One of the biggest changes may come with electric vehicles. They will have to figure out how to make them pay for road usage. California has not significantly raised gas taxes in 20 years. Licensee fees have gone up a bit in that time. But, in truth, public roads are subsidized by other taxes not user fees.
Fuel taxes and license fees should pay for all highway and city streets, probably half the police and fire department cost, half of hospital emergency rooms and ambulance costs. Current fees here do not even pay to build and maintain the roads. They have to sell bonds to rebuild the highways.
Bil lD

[eugene thomas]

kind of seems California would take care of the rooling brown outs before the force whole state to have electric cars,, dryers, and stoves.

[Mike Henderson]

kind of seems California would take care of the rooling brown outs before the force whole state to have electric cars,, dryers, and stoves.

The major reason for the rolling blackouts is turning off the transmission lines to prevent forest fires when we get Santa Ana winds.

The reason for pushing people towards electric devices is two fold:

(1) Natural gas is mostly methane. When a gas appliance starts up, some of the gas escapes before it ignites. Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. And burning it creates carbon dioxide which is also a greenhouse gas.

(2) The burning of fossil fuel (mostly gasoline) in vehicles produces carbon dioxide which is also a greenhouse gas. By pushing people towards electric vehicles, and also moving the grid to renewable generation, we reduce the emission of carbon dioxide.

Seems like worth while goals to me.

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

California has not significantly raised gas taxes in 20 years.The taxes increased about 35% for gas and 97% for diesel in 2017. That was significant enough to result in a (failed) repeal referendum (Prop 6) the next year. They'll also be adjusted for inflation going forward.

Or maybe it's 2037 already...I've been losing track of time lately. :)

[Mike Henderson]

One of the biggest changes may come with electric vehicles. They will have to figure out how to make them pay for road usage. California has not significantly raised gas taxes in 20 years. Licensee fees have gone up a bit in that time. But, in truth, public roads are subsidized by other taxes not user fees.
Fuel taxes and license fees should pay for all highway and city streets, probably half the police and fire department cost, half of hospital emergency rooms and ambulance costs. Current fees here do not even pay to build and maintain the roads. They have to sell bonds to rebuild the highways.
Bil lD

There are studies going on now (I participated in one) to determine the best way to tax electric vehicles. I expect it will be by the number of miles driven. When you renew your auto plate (license) I expect you will have to report your mileage (the reading on your odometer). It's hard to cheat because when you sell the car the buyer will force an accurate odometer reading. If you were cheating, the state will charge you as part of the sale - and maybe a penalty. Other ways to check your report of the mileage is to have repair people report odometer readings when the car is serviced.

Mike

[Michael Weber]

Funding roads. in Arkansas and other states as well, if you drive an electric or hybrid, registration for them has increased tremendously. I drive a 2010 Prius. This year registration went up from 20 to 120 dollars. All electrics enjoyed an even larger increase of 200 dollars.

[Jim Koepke]

kind of seems California would take care of the rooling brown outs before the force whole state to have electric cars,, dryers, and stoves.

Sadly California's problem with rolling blackouts is mostly caused by politics, money and changes in how public utilities were regulated.

In the past California power companies had tree trimming crews. The expense was included in operating costs and provided a return on investment. When laws were changed, tree trimming no longer provided the return on investment it had. Twenty years later an arcing insulator or wind blown wires can spark a wild fire. Now California has a real mess due to the desires of those who wanted to make more profit.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

There are studies going on now (I participated in one) to determine the best way to tax electric vehicles. I expect it will be by the number of miles driven. When you renew your auto plate (license) I expect you will have to report your mileage (the reading on your odometer). It's hard to cheat because when you sell the car the buyer will force an accurate odometer reading. If you were cheating, the state will charge you as part of the sale - and maybe a penalty. Other ways to check your report of the mileage is to have repair people report odometer readings when the car is serviced.


How does mileage based tracking work if a vehicle leaves the state it is registered in? Why should I pay for miles not traveled in the state I live in? I have a vehicle that is only driven about 10% of the miles in the state of Minnesota. I don't want to pay MN mileage tax plus gas tax in other states that don't have mileage based taxes. As it is, I pay way more fuel tax in Minnesota for that vehicle than the amount of fuel I actually burn in Minnesota.

States would like to use GPS tracking for better compliance if they start a mileage tax, but there is huge pushback on that for privacy reasons. People don't want to have their location sent to government. A lot of people are worried about the data being accessible by law enforcement. I suspect part of it is they don't want to be questioned by police just because they were driving near a crime scene. I am sure if GPS units are required for cars some will refuse and others will be figuring out to block the signal or something so they don't have to pay.

[Brian Elfert]

Sadly California's problem with rolling blackouts is mostly caused by politics, money and changes in how public utilities were regulated.

In the past California power companies had tree trimming crews. The expense was included in operating costs and provided a return on investment. When laws were changed, tree trimming no longer provided the return on investment it had. Twenty years later an arcing insulator or wind blown wires can spark a wild fire. Now California has a real mess due to the desires of those who wanted to make more profit.


Sometimes lawmakers don't think through the consequences of actions they take. I've read it that PGE believes it will take at least a decade to get their system back into shape. Even a decade may be optimistic considering the bankruptcy.

Regulated for-profit utilities like to spend money on projects that can be charged back to the ratepayers as they automatically make money on that spending.

[Mike Henderson]

How does mileage based tracking work if a vehicle leaves the state it is registered in? Why should I pay for miles not traveled in the state I live in? I have a vehicle that is only driven about 10% of the miles in the state of Minnesota. I don't want to pay MN mileage tax plus gas tax in other states that don't have mileage based taxes. As it is, I pay way more fuel tax in Minnesota for that vehicle than the amount of fuel I actually burn in Minnesota.

States would like to use GPS tracking for better compliance if they start a mileage tax, but there is huge pushback on that for privacy reasons. People don't want to have their location sent to government. A lot of people are worried about the data being accessible by law enforcement. I suspect part of it is they don't want to be questioned by police just because they were driving near a crime scene. I am sure if GPS units are required for cars some will refuse and others will be figuring out to block the signal or something so they don't have to pay.

Part of the study included a device that plugged into your car and used GPS to track where you drove your miles (I used one of those devices as part of the study). The issue with it was that the device would allow them to track where you went with your car and many people had privacy concerns about that. So pick your poison - you can agree to use a GPS device and only pay for the miles that you drive in-state, or you can pay by your mileage. Your choice.

Last I heard they hadn't made a decision on what to do yet. I think there's a surcharge on license registrations right now for electric vehicles and maybe that will be the way they do it.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Regulated for-profit utilities like to spend money on projects that can be charged back to the ratepayers as they automatically make money on that spending.

During my years working for Pacific Telephone & Telegraph a lot of things were done in a way to incur more cost. This all fell into the operating cost. We were all outfitted with high quality tools. Work a couple hours of overtime and the company bought our meal. There were a few places we could just sign the receipt. Those were my steak dinner nights while single.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Part of the study included a device that plugged into your car and used GPS to track where you drove your miles (I used one of those devices as part of the study). The issue with it was that the device would allow them to track where you went with your car and many people had privacy concerns about that. So pick your poison - you can agree to use a GPS device and only pay for the miles that you drive in-state, or you can pay by your mileage. Your choice.

Last I heard they hadn't made a decision on what to do yet. I think there's a surcharge on license registrations right now for electric vehicles and maybe that will be the way they do it.

Mike

Currently in California and maybe other states drivers have toll transponders in their vehicles. In many places these are anonymously tracked to give a view on traffic conditions. Here in Washington where the interstate splits into two routes that come together again south of Portland there is an electronic sign showing travel times from the split to the reconnecting interchange. They may be using the transponders in tractor trailer rigs to clock this. There is a few miles difference between the routes. Often the longer route has a faster time due to traffic conditions in Portland. There are some tight turns in Portland and I-5 narrows to two lanes through some of the city.

With a toll transponder it is possible to put them in a Faraday bag so they do not transmit a paranoid person's location.

jtk

[Doug Garson]

Since currently, most revenue to maintain roads comes from gas taxes collected at the pumps why not collect those same taxes at charging stations? Home charging stations could be equipped to report how many kilowatt hours were used per month even if the chargers used rooftop solar panels. Alternately cars could be required to report the data. It might sound hard to do but I bet Tesla cars already have the capability to do it, it would just take a software upgrade to implement it. No need to know where you drive, just how much fuel (electricity) you consumed.

[Brian Elfert]

Currently in California and maybe other states drivers have toll transponders in their vehicles. In many places these are anonymously tracked to give a view on traffic conditions. Here in Washington where the interstate splits into two routes that come together again south of Portland there is an electronic sign showing travel times from the split to the reconnecting interchange. They may be using the transponders in tractor trailer rigs to clock this. There is a few miles difference between the routes. Often the longer route has a faster time due to traffic conditions in Portland. There are some tight turns in Portland and I-5 narrows to two lanes through some of the city.


We don't have any true toll roads in Minnesota so very few have toll transponders. (We have a few toll lanes.) The department of transportation has various sensors that can detect how fast traffic is moving to put up those time estimates. I've found that sometimes the estimates have been off by 25% or more although usually pretty close.

I doubt Oregon uses toll transponders as they would have to have the overhead readers to read the transponders. I wonder if times you go by a toll reader are available to law enforcement? In New York City crime dramas on TV they regularly use toll records to determine when a suspect entered or left the city.

[Jim Becker]

With a toll transponder it is possible to put them in a Faraday bag so they do not transmit a paranoid person's location.

They are backed up by license plate photos... :)

[Mike Henderson]

They are backed up by license plate photos... :)[/COLOR]

Yep, here in southern California you can register your license plate and then drive on the toll roads without a transponder. They will recognize your car and put the charge on your account.

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

Yep, here in southern California you can register your license plate and then drive on the toll roads without a transponder. They will recognize your car and put the charge on your account.As I recall, they used to charge an extra $2/toll-gate to use that option. I only ever had one transponder and it was always in the wrong car.

Re "transponder": they replaced the wallet-sized widgets with a tiny windshield sticker a year or so back, appears to have an RFID chip embedded in it. They sent one for each car on the account...may have done away with the plate-reader surcharge at the same time.

[Jim Koepke]

So there is technology in place to address how to bill vehicles for driving on roads and highways.


I doubt Oregon uses toll transponders as they would have to have the overhead readers to read the transponders. I wonder if times you go by a toll reader are available to law enforcement? In New York City crime dramas on TV they regularly use toll records to determine when a suspect entered or left the city.

Many long haul trucks have transponders so they can weigh in motion and not have to pull off the highway at weigh stations. Does the state of Oregon have a problem with overhead readers? Do the readers have to be above the traffic?

Not sure if law enforcement has real time access to such data. There are a lot of things on TV that do not take place in real life. The problem is when people see it on TV they often accept it as reality. Once the general public thinks it is already in place, no one squawks when some politician decides to make it reality.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

As I recall, they used to charge an extra $2/toll-gate to use that option. I only ever had one transponder and it was always in the wrong car.

Many of the systems will charge an administration fee for Toll by Plate if the vehicle doesn't have a transponder registered, but waive the fee if the plate does connect with a transponder account, at least for folks registered in their own states with "some" reciprocity.

And then there is a pet peeve of mine that can be illustrated in Florida. Some toll roads in FLorida accept EZPass as well as their SunPass accounts but some only accept SunPass. So travelers end up with a Toll by Plate bill a few months later...with an administration fee. Frequent travelers know to expect this, but many others are fooled to think they are covered when they enter a tool highway that has the EZPass logo on the sign but seamlessly transition to another toll road that only accepts SunPass with no real warning.

The point here is that for transponders to work as a way for EVs to help pay for the infrastructure they use in lieu of fuel taxes, the various transponders systems are going to have to actually be totally interlinked so that a "single bill" situation can be used for folks who travel between multiple systems.

[Bill Dufour]

In New Zealand as of several years ago a diesel vehicle had to pay two license fees. I believe because they thought diesels were all commercial trucks. There was a flat yearly license fee and then you had to buy mileage fees. Something like for every 5,000Km traveled you had to buy a ticket for $20. I believe you had to report mileage every year and verify you had purchased enough tickets to cover it. You could buy extra tickets at any time. Huge fine if they checked the odometer and it was over what you had purchased. I have no idea if the tickets could be used for multiple vehicles or separate ticket books for each car.
My nephew decided not to buy a Diesel car when he discovered the mileage fees would about be equal to the yearly license fee for normal suburban driver distances. That would probably mean it would wipe out any fuel cost savings.
Bil lD.

[Mike Henderson]

As I recall, they used to charge an extra $2/toll-gate to use that option. I only ever had one transponder and it was always in the wrong car.

Re "transponder": they replaced the wallet-sized widgets with a tiny windshield sticker a year or so back, appears to have an RFID chip embedded in it. They sent one for each car on the account...may have done away with the plate-reader surcharge at the same time.

I'm pretty sure that extra $2 charge went away - I haven't seen it on my bill in a long time but I don't check that closely. They used to have humans looking at the pictures to get the plate number. Now, it's all done by computer.

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

I'm pretty sure that extra $2 charge went away - I haven't seen it on my bill in a long time but I don't check that closely. They used to have humans looking at the pictures to get the plate number. Now, it's all done by computer.Probably so...no real way for me to tell, since both cars now have the stick-on widget.

[Lee DeRaud]

The point here is that for transponders to work as a way for EVs to help pay for the infrastructure they use in lieu of fuel taxes, the various transponders systems are going to have to actually be totally interlinked so that a "single bill" situation can be used for folks who travel between multiple systems.One additional issue is that (at least here) the transponders are typically tied to a user account rather than a specific car.

[Doug Garson]

I struggle to see how the transponder idea would work for all EVs. What if all or the majority if your driving is on roads not covered by the transponder systems? Are there transponders covering the majority of city streets and secondary country roads? Don't they mainly cover primary commuter routes only? Surprised no one commented on my suggestion that the taxes be collected at the charging station similar to how gas taxes work.

[Jim Koepke]

The mention of law enforcement use of transponders piqued my curiosity.

A search found this article about tracking in Massachusetts > https://www.govtech.com/public-safety/Massachusetts-Police-Use-Electronic-Tolling-System-to-Track-People-in-Ongoing-Investigations.html

This was used in an attempt to find an escaped convict in a stolen car.

The search included the use of license plate readers.

Do you get the feeling someone is watching?

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I struggle to see how the transponder idea would work for all EVs. What if all or the majority if your driving is on roads not covered by the transponder systems? Are there transponders covering the majority of city streets and secondary country roads? Don't they mainly cover primary commuter routes only? Surprised no one commented on my suggestion that the taxes be collected at the charging station similar to how gas taxes work.

Rather than try to collect the taxes at the charging stations - since a lot of people charge at home by just plugging in the car (no external unit) - a better way would be to have the cars report their usage of kWh (if that's what you're going to use). The cars also all have GPS so you could have them report where the usage occurred and report that usage to the proper state. Each state could then bill you for your activity in their state.

I suspect all of the cars can report that data wirelessly but if they can't, it could be collected when you have service done on the car.

kWh usage is better than miles because it accounts for the weight/size of the vehicle, and how efficient the car is - which is similar to gas tax. A big ICE car uses more gas and a more efficient car uses less.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

The mention of law enforcement use of transponders piqued my curiosity.

A search found this article about tracking in Massachusetts > https://www.govtech.com/public-safety/Massachusetts-Police-Use-Electronic-Tolling-System-to-Track-People-in-Ongoing-Investigations.html

This was used in an attempt to find an escaped convict in a stolen car.

The search included the use of license plate readers.

Do you get the feeling someone is watching?

jtk

I guess I don't understand why people are so afraid of these devices that record your passage on public streets. As long as the access to that data is controlled, such as by warrant, I think it's a good thing that helps law enforcement solve crimes. Look at DNA evidence - it has solved long cold crimes such as murder.

I read one story about how detectives talked relatives into giving their DNA so that they could prosecute a relative who had killed someone. The relatives said that if they realized their DNA would be used to prosecute the killer they would not have cooperated. I can't understand that. If a relative of mine killed someone I'd want to help with the evidence to convict that person.

Another technology is license plate readers. The cops can drive along a road and the technology automatically reads the license plates (including parked cars) and checks a data base of stolen cars and known vehicles of wanted people. If it recognizes a car it alerts the cop. I think that technology is wonderful but some people object to its usage.

Mike

[I also have no problem with the cops using private DNA data bases (such as Ancestry or 23andMe). In fact, I think each newborn should have their DNA taken and kept in a database for use in crime solving.]

[Doug Garson]

Rather than try to collect the taxes at the charging stations - since a lot of people charge at home by just plugging in the car (no external unit) - a better way would be to have the cars report their usage of kWh (if that's what you're going to use). The cars also all have GPS so you could have them report where the usage occurred and report that usage to the proper state. Each state could then bill you for your activity in their state.

I suspect all of the cars can report that data wirelessly but if they can't, it could be collected when you have service done on the car.

kWh usage is better than miles because it accounts for the weight/size of the vehicle, and how efficient the car is - which is similar to gas tax. A big ICE car uses more gas and a more efficient car uses less.

Mike
I covered the home charging idea of having the car report the kWh. If necessary, legislation could require all EVs to include that capability. Interesting that many are concerned that the fees collected go to the right state which doesn't happen now with gas taxes.

[Mike Henderson]

I covered the home charging idea of having the car report the kWh. If necessary, legislation could require all EVs to include that capability. Interesting that many are concerned that the fees collected go to the right state which doesn't happen now with gas taxes.

In a way, it does. If you travel a lot of miles in another state you'll probably buy some gas there. It's not perfect but it's something. Big trucks have much more stringent requirements. They have to show that they bought enough diesel fuel in a state for the miles they traveled there. Otherwise, the trucks would fill up in a cheap state and drive right through an expensive state, but still put wear on the roads.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I covered the home charging idea of having the car report the kWh. If necessary, legislation could require all EVs to include that capability. Interesting that many are concerned that the fees collected go to the right state which doesn't happen now with gas taxes.

Occasionally we buy gas in Oregon. Usually we purchase our fuel in Washington. There are likely a lot of Oregonians who shop in Washington and do not buy much fuel in Washington. In the Oregon counties closest to us it is still unlawful for consumers to pump their own. That is likely a convenience for many drivers who do not want to get out of their cars in the rain or snow.

There are always people trying to get around paying taxes. It often backfires on them and they end up having to pay road taxes on their heating fuel.

Some have tried converting their vehicles to natural gas and use home filling stations. My last involvement with such was in the late 1980s & '90s.

jtk

[Lee DeRaud]

If you travel a lot of miles in another state you'll probably buy some gas there.Especially if you live in California.

I always make it a point to top off in Havasu on my way back from the Grand Canyon, whether I need to or not. :)

[Doug Garson]

Same used to happen here in the Vancouver BC area pre Covid, we have some of the highest gas prices in N America and some would drive across the border to Washington state to fill up. Of course they were probably the first to complain about the condition of the roads here in BC. Our gas prices are high as there are taxes to support road maintenance and to support rapid transit systems.
Can't help but think all our taxes would be lower and the services they support would be better if everyone just paid their fair share instead of going out of their way to avoid taxes.

[Jim Koepke]

Can't help but think all our taxes would be lower and the services they support would be better if everyone just paid their fair share instead of going out of their way to avoid taxes.

It seems some folks put in more effort avoiding taxes than they would have to if they just paid them. But of course "it is the principle" they claim.

Often gasoline is 10¢ a gallon cheaper in Oregon and they pump it for you. With an empty thirty gallon tank that is only going to save me three bucks for a fill up. At least that much gas will be wasted to get the lower price.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

A former co-worker lived in Wisconsin and worked in Minnesota. He probably drove 75% of his miles in Minnesota due to his commute. He bought all of his gas in Wisconsin so the gas tax would go to his home state. He would complain about rush hour congestion in Minnesota, but he didn't pay one penny towards highway improvements in Minnesota.

[Jim Becker]

One additional issue is that (at least here) the transponders are typically tied to a user account rather than a specific car.

It's that way here in PA, but in the web interface for the account, one is supposed to enter the license plate(s) for the vehicle(s) that will use the transponder. They can cross reference from there.

[Lee DeRaud]

It's that way here in PA, but in the web interface for the account, one is supposed to enter the license plate(s) for the vehicle(s) that will use the transponder. They can cross reference from there.Yes, that's how it works here too.

Problem is, if you list multiple cars, they have no way of knowing which car it's in when they ping it except by looking at the plate pictures. But if they're going to have to ID every car using the plate pictures anyway, there's no point in having a transponder in the first place.

[Brian Elfert]

It seems some folks put in more effort avoiding taxes than they would have to if they just paid them. But of course "it is the principle" they claim.


Another co-worker of mine pinched pennies to the extreme. He was constantly looking for the best gas price and would go out of his way if gas was cheaper. We told him he probably wasn't saving money driving out of his way to buy gas. I am lucky on gas prices as two stations I drive by regularly have the lowest prices in the area.

I had a high MPG diesel car in the mid 2000s. I regularly drove to a station that was almost a 20 mile round trip because I could generally save 20 to 30 cents per gallon. The half gallon of diesel I burned was more than made up by the savings.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, that's how it works here too.

Problem is, if you list multiple cars, they have no way of knowing which car it's in when they ping it except by looking at the plate pictures. But if they're going to have to ID every car using the plate pictures anyway, there's no point in having a transponder in the first place.

I honestly can see at time when toll-by-plate may very well just replace transponders, honestly. Given the advances in video capture technology. Or alternatively, transponder type gear just embedded in the vehicle. (and made difficult or nearly impossible to disable without "bricking" the car) But I can see, um...shall we say...pushback...on that kind of idea by certain folks, too.

[Jim Koepke]

I am lucky on gas prices as two stations I drive by regularly have the lowest prices in the area.

[edited]



Two of the major grocery chains in my area have discounts on gas based on grocery purchases. It can be up to a dollar per gallon. The rewards are honored across the state line.

The store where we usually do our shopping also tends to have the lowest gas prices in the area. My discount from last month is 60¢ a gallon. We haven't been doing as much driving since covid. We are tending to have all our meals at home now.


Yes, that's how it works here too.

Problem is, if you list multiple cars, they have no way of knowing which car it's in when they ping it except by looking at the plate pictures. But if they're going to have to ID every car using the plate pictures anyway, there's no point in having a transponder in the first place.

As long as they are getting paid, they likely do not care which vehicle is using the pass. Being able to associate it with a license plate will likely only be used by law enforcement, if the transponder doesn't register or it is reported stolen.

There may be other reasons that escape me at the moment.

Can a transponder be used in a vehicle that isn't associated to the transponder? This would be a reason for an image being stored of all vehicles and transponders.

jtk

[Lee DeRaud]

As long as they are getting paid, they likely do not care which vehicle is using the pass. Being able to associate it with a license plate will likely only be used by law enforcement, if the transponder doesn't register or it is reported stolen.

There may be other reasons that escape me at the moment.Well, I thought we were discussing using the transponders to assess "gas" taxes on EVs, but drift happens...

[Jim Koepke]

Well, I thought we were discussing using the transponders to assess "gas" taxes on EVs, but drift happens...

Yes, conversation drift is normal.

Electric vehicle transponders will likely be a different kettle of fish than a toll road transponder. Any transponder used for road taxes will likely be permanently attached to a single vehicle. The vehicle weight will likely be included in the formula of any tax scheme.

They will likely be blended in years to come. That is how technology works.

jtk