Finding an Apprenticeship

[Benjamin Levin]

I'm determined to find an apprenticeship to become a furniture maker/cabinetmaker, and my dream is to become an apprentice. I've built up a tiny apartment workshop with hand tools, and I'm in the process of building myself a Scandinavian cabinetmakers bench. As much as books and Youtube have been helpful, I am much more interested in learning from an experienced craftsperson in a hands on way. Although I'm in Chicago, I figured that this community at large might have tips or thoughts that might be helpful.

Thanks in advance!!

[Robert Hayward]

First thing that comes to my mind is you need to start hitting the sidewalks. Chicago is a huge population area and probably has dozens to maybe hundreds of cabinet shops. Google them and make a list. Then start visiting those on your list. Walk in and tell them you are looking for a job. Sooner or later one of them will have so much work piled up they will hire a low/non experienced person. You might go through a bunch of shops while looking, but with persistence you will succeed.

[Richard Coers]

I really doubt if there are hundreds of cabinet shops in Chicago. Expensive real estate is a major factor up there. Lots of places selling cabinets, but shops and factories are not that common. Furniture making shops would be even more rare. But I'm sure there are some, maybe a lot of 2-3 man shops in that genre. Might look into a co-op where you share shop space and have the opportunity to learn from others. It would be tough to take the time for them to teach since they have to be struggling for income right now. I would suggest you also check here, https://www.carpentersunion.org/programs/skill-advancement-program/ I wonder about the salaries paid for apprentices and the cost of living in Chicago. Might be an opportunity to leave Chicago and find a smaller town where apprentice wages will provide well enough.

[Mark Gibney]

Do you plan on making your living through woodworking? If so you are on the right track by thinking of working for someone else to learn.
If I was a young man I would love to get a job with Thomas Moser's furniture company, for me they make some of the most beautiful chairs. They are big enough to have employees, and small enough that their quality is great, in both design and execution.

[Richard Coers]

Do you plan on making your living through woodworking? If so you are on the right track by thinking of working for someone else to learn.
If I was a young man I would love to get a job with Thomas Moser's furniture company, for me they make some of the most beautiful chairs. They are big enough to have employees, and small enough that their quality is great, in both design and execution.
Big enough to have employees is a bit of an understatement! There are going to more and more automation. I think the only hand work on their classic chairs left is loading the seat blanks into a CNC router, loading strips into gluing forms, and then hand scraping and forming the bow back. A 2019 article says they have 88,000-square-foot manufacturing facility and 110-person staff

[Mark Bolton]

Depending on your definition of "an apprenticeship" I cant fathom that you couldnt land yourself somewhere almost instantaneously with some face to face networking and introduction. I kind of agree with Richard in that most areas it may be tricky to find a "furniture maker" that is productive enough to consider taking someone on who needs an income commensurate with full time employment but I have a hard time believing there isnt a shop within lets say a 50 mile radius (painful daily commute but welcome to my world) that wouldnt snatch up an eager individual in a nano-second. Its pretty much every shop owners dream to find someone eager to learn and that also understands that apprenticeship means working your way up. That doesnt mean making poverty level wages or working for free but that it takes time for a shop to get you up to speed and have faith in their increased capacity on your behalf. If you were then willing to commute farther or even relocate your prospects would grow exponentially.

On the flip side, not wanting to impart any amount of cockiness to your pursuit, given what you are likely looking for you would need to be qualifying them as an employer just as much as they would be qualifying you as an employee. Going to work in a melamine cabinet production shop that does zero bench work is likely not going to make you happy. That said, finding a bespoke shop that works like a bunch of tibetan monks whittling furniture out of carefully harvested tree stumps would likely land you in a shop that cant afford to pay you.

If I were young and had your pursuit in mind I would be compiling a massive qualified list in an excel or google docs spread sheet of any and all potential prospects in the radius your willing to cover. I would qualify them on size, type of work, distance, and so on. And then I would set aside the time to contact, arrange a time to visit, and have a quick interaction being respectful of their time. Many could likely be a knock and talk. Leave them a contact card. After the visit take a lot of notes. Add them to your qualifier list and work down from there.

I will guarantee you your phone will likely ring before you return to some of them. I will bet you a few will want to snatch you up before you get too far afoot. At the very least you will gather gobs and gobs of valuable information and networking contacts.

[Daniel O'Neill]

Benjamin,
Some really good points above. To that Vistaprint.com used to have free business cards.

One thing I think you should look for (personally) is a furniture/cabinet repair shop. If furniture is what you're looking at making. I'm in the far west burbs of Chicagoland (heyo) and there is George Saupp violins. They have a repair shop here and in Chicago. I think with repair you'll get the knowledge & variety. Perhaps you might consider re-upholstering as well but I'm not sure how much wood working a shop like that would do. Here's to hoping for your sucess.

Daniel

[Mark Gibney]

A 2019 article says they have 88,000-square-foot manufacturing facility and 110-person staff



Wow! I had no idea. I pictured low winter light through the windows as the men pushed handplanes over the benches, men who carry their own sandwiches wrapped in brown paper for lunch and who still wear neckties to the job.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Do commercial hand built furniture shops even exist anymore? I know small cabinet shops are an endangered species, but still some out there. Not much resembling traditional woodworking in the cabinet shops that actually make a profit in my experience.

Don't mean to discourage Benjamin but if considering going into a career making sawdust, keep in mind the word career. Lots of people woodwork and furniture build, but most of those are hobby pursuits that do not need to make a living from the woodworking. It's trickier to find something in the field that people will pay a living wage for you to do. In my experience, unless your name is Nakashima or Maloof already, you will have a pretty hard time selling pretty furniture for the $ it costs to build, and even if you do succeed in building a brand that people will pay that extra bit to get you a comfortable living, it will have taken many years to accomplish. There are other paths though in the trades that allow you to work making sawdust and a pretty good living. Finish carpentry for example. Maybe widen your search a little.

FYI, when we hire someone, reliable and sober will get them a job, willingness and ability to learn will graduate them from cleanup guy to however high they want to go.

[Jim Becker]

Do commercial hand built furniture shops even exist anymore? I know small cabinet shops are an endangered species, but still some out there. Not much resembling traditional woodworking in the cabinet shops that actually make a profit in my experience. .

Yes, they do. Thos Moser and Nakashima studios are just two examples and there are many small makers out there that specialize in commission work or have specific products they produce to order from their own designs. There are multiple folks here at SMC who do work like that. There will always be a market for custom/hand-built products, but that market is decidedly "high end" at this point.

Custom/Semi-custom cabinetry is probably a bigger market as it's more related to the real estate/housing/commercial market, but even there, mass market has a big foothold and a wide quality range. (It's easy to dismiss companies like Ikea in that respect, but their higher end cabinetry stuff is pretty decent) This is probably where the OP will find the most opportunity, but they are going to need to try and target organizations that use the kinds of skills they want to learn in their operation. Manufacturing has changed a lot so many tasks that used to be performed by individuals are done differently today. It's less "making" and more "assembling" due to automation, etc. There are still custom shops, however. My neighbor across the street and his partners are good examples. They build by hand and are tied into multiple architects to get their high-end work. Sometimes, they are even installing their work in NYC or beyond. But even so, they are earning a modest living.

[Richard Coers]

Yes, they do. Thos Moser and Nakashima studios are just two examples and there are many small makers out there that specialize in commission work or have specific products they produce to order from their own designs. There are multiple folks here at SMC who do work like that. There will always be a market for custom/hand-built products, but that market is decidedly "high end" at this point.

Custom/Semi-custom cabinetry is probably a bigger market as it's more related to the real estate/housing/commercial market, but even there, mass market has a big foothold and a wide quality range. (It's easy to dismiss companies like Ikea in that respect, but their higher end cabinetry stuff is pretty decent) This is probably where the OP will find the most opportunity, but they are going to need to try and target organizations that use the kinds of skills they want to learn in their operation. Manufacturing has changed a lot so many tasks that used to be performed by individuals are done differently today. It's less "making" and more "assembling" due to automation, etc. There are still custom shops, however. My neighbor across the street and his partners are good examples. They build by hand and are tied into multiple architects to get their high-end work. Sometimes, they are even installing their work in NYC or beyond. But even so, they are earning a modest living.
Of course there will always be an exception to any statement made. America is huge, and there is always someone that has carved out their niche and are great at it. Finding that shop and getting an apprenticeship often leads to your own business. But to be successful at a niche career, it will take more than 1 apprenticeship. The first could be to learn woodworking skills, but those skills are pretty useless in a small business if you can't market your work. So a second apprenticeship will be needed with someone great at marketing. One of my best friends here in Peoria is the best marketing woodworker I know. When he finds someone interested in his work, he is not fixated in selling that piece to them, even though they usually do buy that piece that caught their eye, he is interested in making them a collector or patron of his work first. That starts with a dinner party or meeting for wine, and advances from there. To find that extremely small percentage of buyers like that, he traveled to only the best art shows in the country and moved his work more towards sculpture. Now Covid has killed that method of marketing. But his effort in forming patrons first has kept him making money with zero art shows since March 1. http://pearcepearce.com/one-of-a-kind

[John Gornall]

This has me thinking of my beginnings long ago. The boss showed me around the shop then said "Here's your first tool - use it well" and handed me a broom.

[Alex Zeller]

This has me thinking of my beginnings long ago. The boss showed me around the shop then said "Here's your first tool - use it well" and handed me a broom.


More than one started off with that being their first tool. What you need to do is show you are glad to do it. Also ask questions. If it's a shop with a few people in it you'll figure out the ones who will be more likely to answer them. Also if you see someone feeding wood into a tool like a planer ask if you can help.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Yes, they do. Thos Moser and Nakashima studios are just two examples and there are many small makers out there that specialize in commission work or have specific products they produce to order from their own designs. There are multiple folks here at SMC who do work like that. There will always be a market for custom/hand-built products, but that market is decidedly "high end" at this point.

Custom/Semi-custom cabinetry is probably a bigger market as it's more related to the real estate/housing/commercial market, but even there, mass market has a big foothold and a wide quality range. (It's easy to dismiss companies like Ikea in that respect, but their higher end cabinetry stuff is pretty decent) This is probably where the OP will find the most opportunity, but they are going to need to try and target organizations that use the kinds of skills they want to learn in their operation. Manufacturing has changed a lot so many tasks that used to be performed by individuals are done differently today. It's less "making" and more "assembling" due to automation, etc. There are still custom shops, however. My neighbor across the street and his partners are good examples. They build by hand and are tied into multiple architects to get their high-end work. Sometimes, they are even installing their work in NYC or beyond. But even so, they are earning a modest living.

I'm glad to hear that some exist. I don't know of any around here that are not cabinet shops primarily and only a couple of them left, but this is a backwater. I've personally had a few furniture commissions, but definitely not enough to make a living from. Lot's of people want houses built though and some of them turn into some pretty in depth custom woodworking. The OP would definitely be able to dabble in pro woodworking through that career path if he wanted.

[Brian Holcombe]

Probably you’ll have to move to an area near one of the successful medium sized shops doing the work you want to do. So; Boggs, Nakashima, Maloof, etc.

[johnny means]

Twenty years ago, I decided I wanted to be a furniture maker. I took the first job I could find making sawdust, making laminate, butcher block, and solid surface countertops. It was by no means fine craftsmanship. But it did teach me a whole lot of wood shop fundamentals, care and precision (piece work, I didn't get paid for errors). It also made me much more attractive to successive employers. After that I job hopped, always looking for something a little better. Today, I'm lucky enough to toil away my days making bespoke furniture and millwork, but have the ability to jump into almost any job that involves cutting wood. My advice would be to get yourself into any shop that will take you on in any capacity, as furniture makers apprentice is not really an entry level job anymore.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Look into Homestead Heritage in Waco, Texas. While not an apprenticeship program, they have some great classes in hand tools and use the Paul Sellers method.

[Bill St Amant]

Benjamin, you mention both cabinetmakers and furniture builders. there is a big difference between the two. In my experience cabinet makers mostly work in sheet goods like plywood and MDF with solid wood edging, slab tops, and face frame doors with panel insets. Joinery is mostly machine driven with dominoes, biscuits, dowels, rabbets, with nails and screws where you don't see them. sanded and gun-finished surfaces. $10,000 worth of cabinets would be a kitchen in an apartment. anticipated service life of the product is mostly about 10-40 years. furniture building is something else. have to think hard about what a $10,000 piece of furniture would be. don't know of many furniture shops.

all that said, Benjamin, you have the right attitude. wanting to learn is a basic criteria for success. while you are looking for the right situation, also look at school programs. North bennet street school, college of the redwoods are expensive and far away, but there may be something closer to you that would make sense. either a community college program, a design program, or even weekend or week-long workshops. even if woodworking can't be your full time job now, you can still build knowledge base and make connections that will help you later. i'd also investigate getting into the union if possible.

[roger wiegand]

Apprenticeship is a relatively rare concept in this country. You might need to consider looking to the UK and northern Europe to find shops that work on that model. In the US I expect the much more common route to a first job in traditional furniture making is through one of the craft school programs like the North Bennett Street School. You might talk to Marc at the Marc Adams School, one could learn a lot as an assistant there.

[William Hodge]

I'm determined to find an apprenticeship to become a furniture maker/cabinetmaker, and my dream is to become an apprentice. I've built up a tiny apartment workshop with hand tools, and I'm in the process of building myself a Scandinavian cabinetmakers bench. As much as books and Youtube have been helpful, I am much more interested in learning from an experienced craftsperson in a hands on way. Although I'm in Chicago, I figured that this community at large might have tips or thoughts that might be helpful.

Thanks in advance!!

What position do you really want? Look around, find someone who is successful, and copy what they did.

35 years ago I wanted to build furniture, like the nice photos in Fine Woodworking, even if they were black and white back then. I took some classes at a craftsmanship school, and worked in a wood products factory as my day job. Four months in, I could see that the artisans creating artwork were making it if they had flamboyant sales personalities that could sell work based on people's need to own work made by someone great. People that were good at making stuff, but weak at selling it, needed trust funds or working wives to make it financially. I got to know the fine furniture makers in New England,and the only ones making money were moving a lot of sheet goods and cabinets, and a little furniture. Except Thomas Moser.

After a year, I realized that what worked for me was solid wood millwork for historic restoration. In other words, no sheet goods. The business model was to add as much value to the wood as possible, don't lie to people, make top quality stuff every time, and invest little capitol with no debt. The actual stuff I'm making doesn't matter to much to me, as long as I can do it well. Having a shop on the property that pays, no debt, and a successful business making stuff people seek out is more appealing tome than wow factors of weird wood grain in a piece of art work.

To sum up, find someone doing what you want to do, and copy them.

[Jim Matthews]

This has me thinking of my beginnings long ago. The boss showed me around the shop then said "Here's your first tool - use it well" and handed me a broom.




I have walked out of two jobs that treated new staff as underpaid janitors.
This is the same noxious premise behind internships - where training is purely accidental.

Beware any employer that considers staff expendable.

[Jim Matthews]

https://www.carpenterstraininginstitute.org/get-started/schedule-a-visit/

Not what I would call closely, but a phone call might turn over a lead.

https://www.carpenterstraininginstitute.org/get-started/schedule-a-visit/

[Kevin Jenness]

Most woodworking jobs have less to do with the song of the plane than the din of the wide belt sander, and custom furnituremaking is generally not a well remunerated occupation. If you have business and computer (CAD) skills they will be as valuable to a potential employer as traditional woodworking chops. There are shops out there, so search widely and be prepared to move for the right position.

It's a bit of a different field, but my son runs a timber frame business specializing in restoration. He has trained several people over the last few years; his latest long term hire is an experienced furnituremaker from Ohio who moved here for the job, and he trained one fellow with no prior carpentry experience. So there are situations to be had. An apprenticeship in any aspect of woodworking would be valuable to your long term goal of being a furniture maker. Bear in mind that an employer needs to get value for wages while training and bears the risk that you will jump ship, so don't be shocked at being handed a broom as well as a ruler.

I have no idea whether they are in a hiring mode, but here is one shop in VT making solid wood furniture that has trained apprentices in the past https://shackletonthomas.com/pages/our-story

(https://shackletonthomas.com/pages/our-story)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

[Jim Becker]

Probably you’ll have to move to an area near one of the successful medium sized shops doing the work you want to do. So; Boggs, Nakashima, Maloof, etc.

I agree with that for sure. These organizations are not easy to break into because many of their employees have been with them long-term (the primary person at Nakashima just retired after 50+ years and many of Moser's folks are also long-term. Those are the two I'm familiar with best) but there is always potential if one asks for the opportunity. Gaining an apprenticeship is a marketing and sales operation... :)

[Mark Bolton]

I have walked out of two jobs that treated new staff as underpaid janitors.
This is the same noxious premise behind internships - where training is purely accidental.

Beware any employer that considers staff expendable.

Extremely ill advised attitude to put forth in todays workforce but thats just my opinion. It not to say treating employees like a tool that are to be ground up and discarded isnt of course equally foolish. I hate to sound like an old grandpa but a great many in todays workforce are simply unwilling to apply themselves to the mundane drudgery tasks that simply must be done in day to day business. Beyond that they can often times barely get in the game if its something they either said they wanted to do or are someone interested in doing. When you have someone who cant even focus on effectively and efficiently pushing a broom, or keeping their workspace tidy, doing their own tracking of when their trash barrel is full or they are about to run out of XYZ, you can in no way shape or form feel confident in putting them in a position of heavier responsibility. Its kinda the walk before you run. Once your walking, and walking quickly... we will make you run. If you cant walk? You sit.

Its one thing if you are hiring someone at an executive sales staff level or a management position and then are expecting them to waste your high paid salary taking out the trash or cleaning the bathroom.

I have no idea how old the OP is but it applies across the board and while some prospects tossed around are large operations my overarching assumption would be that OP will land in a smaller shop doing everything from feeding panels through a bander, to assembling boxes, to sanding, and may periodically get to shape a part or pull out a spoke shave. Those shops will expect everyone to do everything. If you a primadonna it will be (and should be) a very short lived experience. I dont know a single small-ish shop that has the profit margin to have a janitorial service or full/part time cleaning person on the payroll. So who do you expect to do the janitorial work? The owner? They more than likely do in the evenings or weekends. Or would you rather the owners and those responsible for the sales that fund your paycheck be out getting work so you have a place to draw said paycheck?

That mindset is utterly wrong and counterproductive to your ultimate goal, and thats to have a stable income. If that means doing whatever is necessary when its within reason, be part of the team and do it. If they are acting like a bunch of sophomoric, frat-house hazing, of the new/low staff then you just picked a bad place to work. But the guy who jumps in and does whatever is needed is the one that will move along.

[johnny means]

That broom is part of our high tech HR systems. It weeds out those with a poor work ethic. If you can't grind out a day cleaning up, how can you be trusted to grind out a difficult job?

[mike stenson]

That broom is part of our high tech HR systems. It weeds out those with a poor work ethic. If you can't grind out a day cleaning up, how can you be trusted to grind out a difficult job?

It's not even just 'work ethic', it's also a good indication of interest.

[Mark Bolton]

It's not even just 'work ethic', it's also a good indication of interest.

Hate to get sidetracked but man o man.. forget about finding someone who can build cabinetry, finding someone who aggressively and willing cleans and I mean really gets in the corners fast, moves like their pants are on fire cleans,... its a wonder it isnt a degreed profession with Masters/PhD level stuff. Or when walking from one end of the shop to the other never being empty handed, or picking up something you see on the floor in transit, good luck. The stories I could tell just from my piddly shop. Its mind blowing and its a jokey, laughy, happy, easy going, place. Still like pulling teeth.

[mike stenson]

Hate to get sidetracked but man o man.. forget about finding someone who can build cabinetry, finding someone who aggressively and willing cleans and I mean really gets in the corners fast, moves like their pants are on fire cleans,... its a wonder it isnt a degreed profession with Masters/PhD level stuff. Or when walking from one end of the shop to the other never being empty handed, or picking up something you see on the floor in transit, good luck. The stories I could tell just from my piddly shop. Its mind blowing and its a jokey, laughy, happy, easy going, place. Still like pulling teeth.

I've said it many times.. I can teach ANYONE who is actually interested and that I can get along with. I'd often take those over more qualified candidates actually (thankfully I am no longer in charge of anyone but myself).

[Alex Zeller]

I'm lucky enough so I don't have a job that provides a steady paycheck and allows me enough free time to make stuff out of wood with my hands. At my real job I'm often training people. What I look for is the person who is eager to anything. Not so fast that I feel like they aren't listening but also not that type of person who just acts like if it isn't exactly what they want to do they then you are asking them to do a suicide mission. I like people who pay attention and if they see someone doing something ask if they can help, even if it's just to hold the stupid end of a tape measure. No job is beneath me so I expect those working around me to feel the same way.

As for looking for a place to work, I wouldn't pass on checking out one or two man shops. They could be a little harder to find but they often need extra help and I can tell you that when they are busy the small things, like pushing a broom, is the last thing they want to do. If you find one they will quickly size you up and see what else you can do. From there they will also decide if they can train you to do more. Learn when to strike up a conversation and ask questions and you'll be surprised just what you will learn.

[Jim Matthews]

I hate to sound like an old grandpa...

Too late.




That mindset is utterly wrong and counterproductive to your ultimate goal, and thats to have a stable income.

The trade off is training. If there's no meaningful program - it's usury. Perhaps you haven't been actively engaged in the trades, but there aren't enough appliants to go around.

Shops with high turnover are a dead end. If you only see the business end of a broom and an unending supply of sawdust - walk. Look around - is it one or two regulars over 50 and a rotation of twenty somethings? Where did the rest go?




If that means doing whatever is necessary when its within reason, be part of the team and do it. If they are acting like a bunch of sophomoric, frat-house hazing, of the new/low staff then you just picked a bad place to work.


Again, you may not have recent experience in a larger concern. More likely is the invasive surveillance of when you arrived, the number of steps walked and your online presence.

If the terms and conditions of an internship include "at will", NDA or non-compete clauses - WALK.




But the guy who jumps in and does whatever is needed is the one that will move along.

The guy who jumps in and doesn't get paid is a tool.

[roger wiegand]

If the terms and conditions of an internship include "at will", NDA or non-compete clauses - WALK.


Where I live, all employment is "at will" by state law, in the absence of a contract that specifically says something else.

[Jim Matthews]

Where I live, all employment is "at will" by state law, in the absence of a contract that specifically says something else.

Apprenticeship has specific protections to prevent churning. There's an entrance exam for most.
If the employer forces an apprentice to sign away their rights, it's a scam.

https://masswagelaw.com/massachusetts-wages-unpaid-internships/

https://www.mass.gov/orgs/division-of-apprentice-standards

https://www.dol.gov/apprenticeship/toolkit/toolkitfaq.htm

[Mark Bolton]

Ridiculous. There are very few formal "apprenticeships". I will guarantee the OP is using the term to be taken under a shops wing, work, learn, and get paid. Its not like an internship in college.

My lord. Run for the hills from these types of employees. Ticking time bombs and a cancer in your company. Good lord.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Apprenticeship has specific protections to prevent churning. There's an entrance exam for most.
If the employer forces an apprentice to sign away their rights, it's a scam.

https://masswagelaw.com/massachusetts-wages-unpaid-internships/

https://www.mass.gov/orgs/division-of-apprentice-standards

https://www.dol.gov/apprenticeship/toolkit/toolkitfaq.htm

Couldn't agree more with Mark's take on this, run away. Not happening at my place. I don't think that's what the OP is asking for.

[Mel Fulks]

Even when apprenticeship was common ,you didn't learn a lot in the first year. That was mostly to test your dedication,
and sweeping skill.

[John Gornall]

I have walked out of two jobs that treated new staff as underpaid janitors.
This is the same noxious premise behind internships - where training is purely accidental.

Beware any employer that considers staff expendable.

The job where I was handed the broom was an excellent experience - good union pay, great training, good employer - best job I ever had.

[Mark Bolton]

Even when apprenticeship was common ,you didn't learn a lot in the first year. That was mostly to test your dedication,
and sweeping skill.


Spot on. And no different than the karate kid... the whole.time you think its a waste and your not learning anything.. only to find out later you were being a little snot.

[Tom M King]

Never having been an employee at a real job, except for the first three months after I finished school, I'm not one to be able to give advice on finding a job. I would say to only take advice from someone who produces work for a living. If you don't already have a good aptitude for building anything, I'd advise taking a different fork in the road.

To produce work, you have to keep moving, and get something done. When I give a new hire a chance, I can tell in the first hour what their capabilities are.

My first job was working for an electrician, when I was an early teenager, before I was old enough to have a driver's license. He used to come get me when he needed help. He gave me one of the best compliments I ever had one night, when we were working without power by flashlight, trying to get the power back on. He told me, "You're the best one for holding a light I've ever seen". If you're getting hired to help, you need to think about how to actually be help.

[Stephen White]

Me I wouldn't take some grunt apprentice position (read low/no pay). If you can't find an old timer willing to pass on their craft then maybe consider just continuing making pieces how you want to until your abilities reach the point that you feel comfortable taking custom orders. Nothing wrong with a side gig that helps you pay for your tools and keeps you learning. At some point if you don't want to have your own business then you could approach high end shops with skills to point to and maybe land something that matches the career you seem to envision. Going and sweeping up at a local cabinet shop might work out with a long term job in wood but I bet it's probably not going to work out like you are envisioning. You might very well end up making your living turning out cabinets and\or bulk furniture for some company but It sure seems like won't line up with what you are thinking as you use your hand tools to carefully craft your first piece. Just my 2 cents. Most people don't pick their jobs as much as end up in them and one sticks.

[John Gornall]

So much is lost when an old, skilled person leaves without passing on the knowledge. During my college years I worked helping an old family member. He was a European trained craftsperson. He kept working into his 90's, doing work for family, no longer paid as he didn't need the money. I wasn't paid and never thought about it. Working with him was one of those lucky times for me. He and I built a house when he was 86. He gave me the best work compliment I ever got - said I worked harder than anyone he'd ever worked with.

[Mark Bolton]

Me I wouldn't take some grunt apprentice position (read low/no pay)

Where in the world would you land on a conclusion of "no pay"? That make zero sense. I honestly doubt there is an apprenticeship/internship in the US that is literally no pay. You move in to the union as an apprentice carpenter/electrician/plumber/on down the line, and you are paid. College internships are typical only unpaid when they count as academic credits which means your trading time in your internship for your school credits. Fair? not so sure, but is what it is.

If your level of aptitude (regardless of your self-perceived value) is "some grunt apprentice position" you either take and get the mud out of your shoes so you can climb the ladder or sit at the house or go flip burgers.

The old timer willing to pass on their craft is likely only going to pay you if he has an overabundance of work or if you contribute enough throughput in his operation for him to be able to generate at least twice your payroll to cover your expense and put a little in his pocket for doing the paperwork.

I honestly wish some comments like these were legally allowed on a job application or an interview because it would save employers a mile of headache with bad hires.

[Mel Fulks]

You have to be just as careful choosing an apprentice as as you are in any other hiring. Maybe more so . Some might
want to work just long enough to learn how to make a CD box.... With your wood, machines , and insurance.

[andrew whicker]

Chicago has tons of manufacturing. When I was engineering for a living we regularly used a very nice machine shop in South Chicago / Oaklawn. I can only imagine the huge amounts of high end remodeling / cabinetry companies. There's a lot of money in Chicago. And if Chicago is some sort of high end custom furniture desert, then why isn't anyone taking advantage?


I live near SLC and a friend of mine works at a high end 'built ins' company here and he is learning at a very fast pace. I'm a bit jealous actually. I want him to work for me.

[Mark Bolton]

You have to be just as careful choosing an apprentice as as you are in any other hiring. Maybe more so . Some might
want to work just long enough to learn how to make a CD box.... With your wood, machines , and insurance.


I think your point is super valid in that when someone learns, they then want to break out on their own. Welcome to the real world. There are no captive employees. At a mid point in the process hopefully the financial compensation and the personal reward leave the employee with the realization the alternative of self employment isnt all that fun. Most people that have ever worked with me tell me over and over that none of them would be willing to trade the stress, sleepless nights, and workload, for what they pretty much know I take out of the business. I have had one past employee go out on their own in a side shoot (painting contractor) of our business after we had the painful conversation that it was time for him to move on.. It didnt last long.

Its a common concept in the shop world that hires are going to steal your jewels and then go out on their own. Its hogwash. In this day and age 1 in 1000 will have the turpitude to actually pull it off and it will likely only be for a short time.

In my world at least... if the OP came to me and as has been stated, in the first 5 minutes of work you'd have an idea of the long ball,.. I'd pretty much give it all, knowledge (little), tools (alot), building, the whole lot, for a small cut on future work for a fixed time. That notion/offer has been in place for years. Concrete finisher I used exclusively was the same way... No takers.

[Jim Becker]

I honestly doubt there is an apprenticeship/internship in the US that is literally no pay.

I'm not speaking for woodworking, but internships are very often without pay in the US with many corporations and businesses. And that's on top of folks still paying tuition to get credit for said internships, living expenses, clothing they might not normally own, etc. My daughter was fortunate to be able to land a paid internship, but several she interviewed for turned out to be "for the experience" with no remuneration. That's the world we happen to live in right now...

[Mark Bolton]

I'm not speaking for woodworking, but internships are very often without pay in the US with many corporations and businesses. And that's on top of folks still paying tuition to get credit for said internships, living expenses, clothing they might not normally own, etc. My daughter was fortunate to be able to land a paid internship, but several she interviewed for turned out to be "for the experience" with no remuneration. That's the world we happen to live in right now...

There may be no pay but their expenses are often times factored in so they have pretty much zero overhead (housing, living expenses, etc. are typically year round if your going after it). So if your just gonig to be parking an apartment for the summer because school is out you may as well be making some connections and living in the apartment as opposed to moving back to "the teet" til school is out.

The higher education system is a load of horse $hi* at this point on many levels (sorry to professor SWMBO). Again.. if the internship is going to pay dividends on the back end... it may likely be zero pay... not the norm for someone wanting to make things out of wood. That happens in the world where the proctologist charges $550 for a 15 minute rubber glove and asks for your business card for the cabs in his man cave in house number 4. I have zero sympathy for academia "suffering" with non paid internships. The entire entity is a pyramid scheme foisted on the young to support the sytem.

[Jim Becker]

Actually, the university that Professor Dr. SWMBO works for is well known for their excellent paid coop programs/internships and has for decades. I hired IT students from the program in the 1990s...I'm even still in touch with one man who did two six month stints on my team. But alas...in recent years, many internships for college students benefit the "employer" more than they do the student financially.

[Kevin Jenness]

"1 in 1000 will have the turpitude to actually pull it off"

So that's what it takes...

[Jim Matthews]

But alas...in recent years, many internships for college students benefit the "employer" more than they do the student financially.

Amen, Reverend.

[mike stenson]

Every intern I've worked with in the last 10 years has been offered a job at the completion of their internship. Most have either taken it, or gone onto better things (or, more interesting for them). You're right about payment, it can be nothing, it can be ok.. it really depends (as far as I'm told, we pay our interns.. but I really don't know). However, it's generally assumed to be an 'extra-curricular' activity.. not a paying job. Kind of like working as a co-op at the university to reduce your costs.. or, being a grad-student and teaching.

On the other hand, we try to give them projects to do that will actually build skills and selling points on their CV. I also have stayed in touch with several, and am happy to listen or provide advice as asked/needed. Kind of like the apprentice/master relationship, there is a mentorship relationship going on.

[Tom M King]

My friends that work for NASA have always had Summer interns. I'm not sure if they get paid, or not. I'll ask. They get the smartest kids though. One particular Summer intern, from a couple of decades ago, is now a top guy at Space X, and another is running a team racing to be the first to develop Quantum Computing. All of academia internship programs are not useless. I'm sure those guys learned something useful back when they were interns. I'd bet they're all making good livings now, doing what they wanted to do.

I wonder how many people here actually build furniture for a living. I'd like to know. Teaching classes for money shouldn't count. I'm sure I couldn't even pay property tax on the Ponderosa if I depended on making furniture for a living.

[Michael W. Clark]

Things are likely different now, but when I was in school, we all did co-ops (engineering) and got paid pretty well. I know other companies have interns and they also get paid. Some companies have corporate housing and put the interns there. Most are offered a job.

As for starting out “pushing the broom”, that happens in most any job where you are the new hire unless you hire in as owner. I’ve changed jobs 5 times in my career as a mechanical engineer and I’ve had to prove myself each time. I feel the same way when I see a new hire. I want to know first if they have the “want to” to understand the problem and get in the details. Are they willing to get dirty in the field if needed? If they have that, it’s a huge step in the right direction.

Most employment contracts are voluntary and can be terminated by either party for any reason. One of the exceptions is if you are hiring in as a company officer where you have a contract for x years but that doesn’t apply here. Even in those, the company can negotiate a buyout of the contract if services are no longer needed.

[Benjamin Levin]

Thank y'all for contributing to my original post! I've read every post and each has helped me think more clearly. I think at this point I'm going to hit the pavement, get to know people, and find a great person to learn from!

[Alex Zeller]

When I first got out of high school and wasn't sure if I was ready for college I took a job at a local glass shop. Being young and not much experience I got the easy jobs. One of them was delivering glass twice a week. I was able to meet people and go into companies that I otherwise never would of heard about. We probably dealt with about a half dozen woodworking shops, two very skilled stain glass craftsmen, one who worked exclusively with brass, and even a glass blowing studio. After going into their shops for months on end and talking with them I'm sure I could have found a couple that would of hired me. As it was several let me putter. One of the woodworking shops would let me use their scroll saw. I learned how to do stain glass and I even have a goblet I blew. My point is that you just need to get in the door, knocking isn't the only way to do it.