How much hp does a shaper need?

[Travis Conner]

I ordered a jet 35x shaper at home DEPOT then cancelled the order when I realized they make a 3hp and a 5hp model. About 100 dollar difference in price. Both look to be the same machine other than horsepower. I don't know anything about shapers, they're new to me.

[Travis Conner]

All I know is I have lots of 20 amp circuits but not many 30 amp circuits so I would have to plug it in if I wanted to use the 5hp version.

[Mike Kees]

Travis you need to slow down and figure out what you intend to do with a shaper before you buy one. Sometimes that is hard to figure out. Hobby or doing work for a living ? How big is the tooling you want/need to run ? Do you have the ability to run three phase machines ? I would suggest looking used here as well. Shapers are easier to find used than most other machines. A power feed is pretty much the second half of the machine, they really make a shaper safer by feeding in a controlled and constant speed, all while keeping your hands away from the cutterhead. I think a three horse shaper would be a decent start point for hobby use . I have a real good one for sale right now, too bad you are not in Alberta.

[Jared Sankovich]

I ordered a jet 35x shaper at home DEPOT then cancelled the order when I realized they make a 3hp and a 5hp model. About 100 dollar difference in price. Both look to be the same machine other than horsepower. I don't know anything about shapers, they're new to me.

Its not so much about hp, but the overall construction in the quill. Heavy is better, hp is secondary.

As an aside I picked up 2 industrial shapers (one with feeder) for less than the 3hp jet from home depot. Used shapers are cheap.

[Ron Selzer]

Never used or looked at that particular machine. I always have been happier with the bigger motor every time. Firmly believe more power keeps the to me up making the work to smoother, better and safer. Have used underpowered equipment to often due to all I could afford at the time. Would also take a hard look at Grizzly line. Have had mixed results with Jet, very happy with Grizzly. Yes there are great prices on used shapers if you're willing to go that way.

Good luck
Ron

[roger wiegand]

I've never even slightly slowed the motor on my 3HP Delta shaper, but I also don't run any huge cutters (the thing terrified me as it is) For cope and stick door sets and raised panel doors it just buzzes through the wood without breathing hard.

I strongly second the recommendation for a power feeder; getting one improved my results and comfort factor dramatically vs hand feeding.

Note also that the cost of tooling will quickly eclipse the cost of the machine. The Amana insert cutter is great for providing a lot of flexibility at a reasonable price along with the fairly easy capability to make custom cutters for short runs.

Look for a used machine, you can often get a box with a couple thousand bucks worth of cutters thrown in with a $5-600 shaper. I did!

[Cary Falk]

I'm not a shaper expert but to me the fence is more important to me than 3hp vs 5hp. I'm not a heavy user though. I had the Grizzly G1026 and got rid of it due to the fence. I ended up with a 5hp Laguna Pro shaper due to the fence. The 5hp is just a bonus.

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm not a shaper expert but to me the fence is more important to me than 3hp vs 5hp. I'm not a heavy user though. I had the Grizzly G1026 and got rid of it due to the fence. I ended up with a 5hp Laguna Pro shaper due to the fence. The 5hp is just a bonus.

Shapers live or die by the fence.

A good fence is a joy to use, a bad one is constantly aggravating.

As others have said, quill size, speed range, table opening, tilting spindle, sliding table, so many variables.

A feeder is also incredibly useful with regards to safety, work quality and cutter lifespan...........Regards, Rod.

[Ron Selzer]

"Shapers live or die by the fence."

Couple mentions of this already. What constitutes a good or bad fence?

Have a shaper in the shop and rarely use it mainly due to fence issues.
Keep thinking I need to build/modify fence to something I could be happy with, just not certain what to do.
Have a new power feeder in the box for it, just don't use the shaper.
Thanks
Ron

[Mel Fulks]

The fences are important, never seen a good one that came with the machine. All of them were toed in a little ,that
makes it harder,or impossible ,to get a good cut. Seen guys waste a lot of time shimming and such. I guess mfgs. dont
age the castings before machining them. I prefer shop made wood fences.

[Bill Dufour]

Folks often set the fence flat then run it over the jointer face down to get it all parallel. Dust collection is a must. There is not much to wear on a used jointer except bearings. Bearings are easy to replace on a jointer. I would defenately look at used before buying new. Should be able to get a good used one for 40% of new without much effort. Know the price of a feeder and see about getting a used package deal.
Bil lD

[Rod Sheridan]

I like the following in a fence

1) coplanar and flat

2) integral safety fingers, as simple as aluminum finger kits or if really flush with cash an Aigner fence. A single piece wood fence can also be made.

3) easily adjustable for fence offset when removing the entire edge.

4) good dust collection

5) I like having a 2 piece Shaw guard for hand fed operations.

443894443895

regards, Rod.

[Ron Selzer]

I like the following in a fence

1) coplanar and flat

2) integral safety fingers, as simple as aluminum finger kits or if really flush with cash an Aigner fence. A single piece wood fence can also be made.

3) easily adjustable for fence offset when removing the entire edge.

4) good dust collection

5) I like having a 2 piece Shaw guard for hand fed operations.

443894443895

regards, Rod.

Thanks Rod

[johnny means]

HP will come into play if you ever invest in larger tooling. 3 HP is going to show it's limitations when it's spinning a 6"cutter.

[Terry Therneau]

Shapers sort of come in 4 sizes: 1/2" cutters (1/2" spindle), 3/4" cutters, 1 1/4" inch cutters, and 1 1/4 + run a lot through it. The last are the industrial types. The 30mm Euro spindles are similar to 1 1/4. Many home hobby types have done a lot with 1/2" versions like this (http://vintagemachinery.org/registry/detail.aspx?id=4319). Router tables have largely replaced those, but don't knock how much quieter a regular motor can be. The classic Delta HD (http://vintagemachinery.org/registry/detail.aspx?id=3877) was common in schools and smaller cabinet shops; you can still find a lot of used ones. The OWWM crowd would call that about as "light" as you want for a 3/4 cutter, and not heavy enough for the bigger 3/4 cutters; the Powermatic 26 is of the same class but a bit beefier. I had a Delta HD for several years and made many pieces of frame and panel furniture before purchasing a used Felder saw/shaper; it served me well. (Not enough floorium to keep both the new slider and the old shaper). Your Jet will be an HD class machine. Extra HP doesn't mean a lot of the bearings aren't up the pounding that that big HP/ cutter size can give. A 2 HP standard motor is in another class than a 2 HP router.

The spindles on my Felder KF700 need 2 hands for me to pick up, and those are "light" in the world of production shapers. The 1 1/4 bore cutters can quickly add up to more than the machine, too. For a medium/large shaper the standard wisdom is that without a powerfeed it is the most dangerous machine in the shop, and with a powerfeed one of the least.

In production workshops a given shaper might have only one role, day after day, and it was common to build a wooden fence specific for that role. I remember a visit to an older cabinet shop: he had 8-10 Delta HD each setup up with a particular cutter, most on a mobile base. Never had to monkey with setup when he needed a particular profile: just wheel the right one out of the corner and go.

[Travis Conner]

I don't generally like used tools.

[Mike Wilkins]

Get the Shaper Book by the Taunton Press-I think it is by Lonnie Bird. Tons of useful information on cutters, fences and most importantly some safety info.
Fences can be rigged up with plywood scraps to make zero clearance fences which will almost totally encase the cutter.
A power feeder is next on my got-to-get list.

[David Kumm]

Increasing the HP doesn't change the build of the quill or spindle which are where you want the beef. Small bearings, close together and a hollow spindle with a draw bar down the center are limiting factors. Adding power without adding build to the quill and spindle is inviting disaster. The size and weight of the cutters and number of passes determine what build you need. That in turn determines the hp needed to safely spin those cutters. Starting with the motor size is doing it backwards.

I started with a 3 hp shaper years ago and did a bunch of raised panels, etc. Results were pretty good but very time consuming and the smaller radius cutters could not compete with larger diameter cutters spun on a more heavy quill. No deflection or slowing under stress, far less sanding, and better suited to a feeder which should be standard on every shaper. I know you don't like used machines, but I'd buy a used Felder F700, SCM T110, or MM equivalent over a new 3 hp size machine and never look back. That size machine seems large until you get into shaping and then you realize they are a nice compromise for the home shop. Dave

[Alex Zeller]

I have a 3hp shaper that serves me well but I don't run large cutters on it. I would decide what you want the shaper for before deciding which shaper is right. As for the Jet, for an extra $100 I would get the extra HP. I mainly use my shaper for cutting patterns with a helical head straight cutter. If I was to use if for tasks like raised panels I would have a dedicated power feeder (right now I have a 1/4hp one that I occasionally will mount on it). Most likely it would be one of the variable speed DC ones with 4 wheels.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I went through the whole Shaper decision thing about 18 months ago.

I started out with a $2000 budget in mind and ended up spending close to $7000 by the time I finished, that included some basic cutters and a power feeder.

I had previously gone through the buy cheaper tools, which really weren't that cheap, only to sell them and upgrade to something much more expensive/capable, that I couldn't get my head around when I made my initial purchases.

So this was one of my reasons for the large budget increase, I didn't want to repeat that with the Shaper purchase.

I then decided that, going down the route of buying your second machine first, I wanted all the features that I could get, within reason.

So other than power, which had to be single phase, I decided I wanted the ability to run the motor in clockwise and counter clockwise, I wanted a sliding table and also a tilting spindle and decent dust collection.

To get the best compromise of all these options, I went with the Hammer F3, 4HP and all the features mentioned above.

If I didn't get most of these features, the Shaper would not be adding much versatility over my 3HP router table.

I spent about $1500 buying a couple of cutter heads and cutter inserts and limiters from Whitehill in the UK.

On top of that, I decided that if I was going to buy this machine, I would add a power feeder and so bought a Comatic DC40 (110v).

I've used the Shaper once, since I got it, but as my skills improve, I plan on doing a kitchen cabinet remodel and also some bedroom built in's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6cJ-qv_DU

[Rod Sheridan]

Very nice, I have a B3 and use the tenon hood and table with mine for tenons.

You'll have a lot of uses with the tilting spindle............Regards, Rod.

[Matt Day]

I don't generally like used tools.
All these great comments and recommendations and that’s all you’ve got as a reply?

[Travis Conner]

I think i'm going to step up and get the powermatic instead of the jet. It looks like it's a bit beefier.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Many of the used Shapers, I see for sale, are the Powematic models.

Nothing wrong with them, but you might find a deal on a used one probably with a power feeder already installed, most are between $1000-$1800.

[Jared Sankovich]

I don't generally like used tools.

Understandable. However the divide between a new $2000 shaper and what you can find used for $1000 (say $20k equilivent new) shaper can be massive.

With that said, your usage will dictate the size and hp requirements. What are you making?

[Jared Sankovich]

I think i'm going to step up and get the powermatic instead of the jet. It looks like it's a bit beefier.

I'd be surprised if they weren't identical build wise.

[Mark Bolton]

I think i'm going to step up and get the powermatic instead of the jet. It looks like it's a bit beefier.

Gold paint doesnt have any gold in it. But toss your money all you want.

"how much hp does a shaper need" is like asking how much power a car, truck, tractor, tractor and trailer, electric motor, bathroom exhaust fan, needs. Its completely dependant on the load. Do you haul a lot of heavy stuff? Do you take lots of monstrously stinky turds? If so.. you'd need a larger, more powerful, higher horsepower, truck or poop stink sucker. Its really not any more difficult than that.

You buy a 3hp shaper, never use it (the common case), who cares. Buy a 3hp and use it a bit, you'll likely wish you bought a 5hp. Run a 5 for a short time and you'll wish you'd have re-thunk your "thump thump thump, me man...., me only buy new" philosophy and had bought a 7.5HP euro industrial machine at auction for half what you paid for the first 3HP toy. But we all learn however we learn (I did).

As has been stated in the gazillion shaper threads you could have read in the archives had you chosen to... just make sure you budget more than your cost for the shaper for a feeder, and 2x your cost of the shaper for tooling, and dont plan on running any router bits.... All well documented in the archives.

[Cary Falk]

I think i'm going to step up and get the powermatic instead of the jet. It looks like it's a bit beefier.

If you are looking at the PM 2700 then look at the Laguna Pro Shaper. It is the same. I have the Laguna and the manuals are the same( same pictures and everything) It will save you some money. I love the fence.

[Jared Sankovich]

Not to beat a dead horse here but looking over the breakdown of the pm 2700 and the jet, they are identical. The exception is that the pm is a 2 spd and the jet is a 4spd. Both run a single top and bottom 6008 bearing. I would rather have 4 speeds 4k, 6k, 8k and 10k vs 10000/7500. 7500 is too fast for a lot of heads unless you stay small diameter.

Pm
443984

Jet
443985

[David Kumm]

6008 is pretty light duty for a shaper unless the heads are smaller and the cuts lighter. Dave

[Mark Bolton]

6008 is pretty light duty for a shaper unless the heads are smaller and the cuts lighter. Dave

In defense of these import level machines, I would guess they would likely run any cutter most would normally throw at them for any amount of time that would be expected. I agree fully its a lot smarter to buy a monster cheap at auction if you can but the vast majority may barely push the capacity of a 3HP machine or barely crowd a 5HP machine that may seem flimsy. I have a cheap 5HP machine in the shop that run's day in and day out and still on its first set of cheapy bearings. Its good for what its good for. Id imagine its seen miles more traffic than most hobby shop shapers and still chunks along. Cut quality isnt great, spindle runout could be a lot better, but it gets used for what it gets used for.

I'd probably snatch up a couple super cheap 3HP machines to run one in a blue moon dedicated stuff if I came across them. Coves, roundovers, slotting. If they sat for 6 mos. and got the dust blown off them with the leaf blower when they were needed it'd be faster than breakdown and setup of another machine.

[Jared Sankovich]

6008 is pretty light duty for a shaper unless the heads are smaller and the cuts lighter. Dave

Interestingly the laguna and grizzly version of the pm2700 use double 6008 bearings top and bottom. The 511/512/513 (delta 7xx, pm29, cantek, bridgewood, larger laguna and a bunch of others) series of Eastern imports use a similar double 6008 top bearing but a considerably larger quill. That said iirc they are up to 7.5hp and rated for 225mm heads.

Grizzly
444007

Laguna
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[Erik Loza]

I have to agree with Mark on this: The vast majority of hobbyists as well as most small shops would be fine with the budget imports that have been mentioned. The most common scenario I see in shops is a “cell” of 3-4 individual shapers like a Weaver. Each set up for a different profile. Sure, the fences are terrible and the frames are flimsy but that is what a lot of shops use to do their face frames with. “Yes” beefy shapers that handle 5 inches under the nut are awesome your average cabinet shop would never need anything close.

To the OP, my advice (which someone already stated) would be to look for a good deal on a used one with a power feeder. Most of your money should go towards tooling. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

Some are real junk, one I had to use had spindles that were bumpy as a Jr high shop first project rolling pin. The best I
used was a Delta Invicta ,think it was made in Brazil.

[David Kumm]

Doubling the bearings is a good way to increase the load capability while keeping the higher rpm available with light duty bearings. That is not an insignificant upgrade. My concern here is not that a smaller shaper can work well when used within its limits, but that people aren't aware of the limits. The OP's question relating only to higher HP demonstrates that without understanding the build limits of a machine, it can become dangerous. HP is irrelevant without knowing a bunch of other stuff too. A million years ago i ran a 3 hp SECO shaper which was actually a pretty decent machine for something in the $1100 range. I bought a 3" steel corrugated knife head for it and was clueless about how heavy or how much stress it put on the machine. Freud smaller diameter cutters were appropriate but not what I was running. I learned fast but sometimes survival has more to do with luck than knowledge. Machinery is dangerous and it is worth the time to learn something about it before asking it to do tasks only the marketing people advocate. Downloading schematics of several machines of different price ranges gives good information as to the differences as Jared did above. Dave

[Travis Conner]

It looks like the powermatic has a handle to adjust the fence. The jet you kind of have to eyeball the fence adjustment to keep it aligned.

[Jim Becker]

It looks like the powermatic has a handle to adjust the fence. The jet you kind of have to eyeball the fence adjustment to keep it aligned.
Historically, they are the same company with PM sometimes being a little beefier on some tools and having more premium features. But someone mentions something important earlier in the thread...your intended use has got to factor into the decision so you can balance cost vs heft/features. I do like heavier, more powerful machines, largely because the mass often reduces vibration to a minimum or none and more power reduces any performance variation that stems from cutting load. Both of those things can contribute to quality in the cut. But again, "you" have to figure out where that balance point is for you. Don't rule out considering Grizzly if you're buying new, either. The range of shapers they offer is pretty broad and you'll note a lot of "similarity" to the units you've been looking at.

[Travis Conner]

The powermatic has wheels, that's what the handle is for. Raises and lowers them.

[Joe Jensen]

I've used shapers for over 40 years. We had a 1/2" spindle shaper in my dad's home shop from the days before big routers and router tables. As a result I've always had a shaper. I built a ton of cabinets with a Powermatic model 26 with a 3/4" spindle. I currently have a Felder with 7.5HP and a 1 1/4" spindle. If you get a shaper budget for a power feeder, much safer and it makes the cut basically perfect. No more sanding profiles. I'm a huge advocate of shapers over fancy router tables as the cut finish is SOOOOO much better. But get a feeder at the same time.

[Travis Conner]

Yeah Joe that's what the rep was saying. He said that it makes it like a planer where you just push the board in and it does the rest. I guess they like to kick the boards out kind of how a router likes to takes off on you if you go the wrong direction.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Travis,

What are you going to use the shaper for primarily?

Has this question been answered yet?

[ChrisA Edwards]

Yeah Joe that's what the rep was saying. He said that it makes it like a planer where you just push the board in and it does the rest. I guess they like to kick the boards out kind of how a router likes to takes off on you if you go the wrong direction.

I read this and it made me a little concerned, mostly about your safety and you not really understanding the aspects of this machine.

If used wrong, a shaper could take your hand off, think of it like a table saw on steroids. A tablesaw will cut anything 1/8" wide in its path, you may lose a finger or two (if it's not a Sawstop). A two inch cutter block, on a shaper, will grab, and continue to grab, and destroy a 2" path of fingers, bone and hand, and has so much inertia, it'll barely slow down, and that will happen faster than the nerve endings in your hand signal your brain as to what is going on.

Now there are cutter blocks that increase safety and limit this possibility, but that's a whole different aspect of using this machine. If you are not onboard with the safety aspects and operation of a power feeder, the tooling is the next level up.

I'm not saying this to knock you in any way, it's just that using this machine could be a life changing situation if used wrong.

[Matt Day]

Totally agree Chris.