Role of the miter saw in a furniture shop?

[Alexander Young]

My shop is 17’x30′ and I am seriously debating the merits of having a miter saw/chop saw in there. The end walls are curved (the shop is in a quonset style barn), so space along the straight walls is at a premium, and I’m just not certain the miter saw earns its keep. I notice that Becksvoort, and Tessolin don’t regularly use miter saws for furniture making, but it seems that many other “makers” and folks on YouTube have a designated miter saw station. I have a great table saw and a nice Incra 1000HD and plan to build a crosscut sled for cutting stock to length. What are your thoughts on having a miter saw for a furniture shop? I’d keep one around for doing trim and stuff in the house, but I’m not sure I need a Bosch Glide that I don’t want to lug into the house taking up room in my shop.

Rather than use the miter saw to roughly dimension lumber, I would use a jigsaw instead to cross cut things to length.

Thank you for your thoughts and experiences!

[mike stenson]

Personally, I just use a handsaw (I'm done before I could go pull out any of my power tools, and extension cord). However, a jigsaw is as good as anything, you could also do crosscut breakdowns with a skillsaw just as readily (and pretty much as accurately as a miter saw).

[ChrisA Edwards]

Due to space, my miter saw does not have a dedicated location. If I need to use it, for multiple cuts, that are longer than my table saws capacity, I lift it up off the floor and place it on my table saw or workbench. I made a removable fence, for use with it, and a support block that goes on the opposite side of the blade to the fence.

For one off's, cutting a piece off a long length, I used my jig saw also.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnrYB73XpNc


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Miter%20Saw%20Fence/.highres/MiterSawFence10_zpsjib4unpa.jpg
I hang it up when not in use.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/i452/cedwards874/Woodworking/Miter%20Saw%20Fence/.highres/MiterSawFence8_zpsbe1kdtqe.jpg

[Alexander Young]

Okay, that's clever!

[Bernie Kopfer]

The thought of having to use the table saw every time I want to cut or trim a piece of wood would ruin my day. Of course it could be made to work but convenience is worth a lot to me. I built an island in my shop that incorporates the table saw, miter saw, planer and router table. With DC to each machine coming down from the ceiling. Great for a home shop but if you are doing production work perhaps not. Bottom line for me is I would would be a frustrated woodworker if I did not have easy access to a miter saw.

[David M Peters]

Don't fret about not having a miter saw, I feel that they're optional for furniture construction. Plus they're space hogs with challenging dust collection!

I feel that many YouTube maker types have "tool backgrounds" more in line with the DIY "let's build a deck" mentality that would put a miter saw above a table saw, or much less a knife line & handsaw. But the miter saw is already part of their equipment portfolio and workflow so there it stays.

I have the cheap 10" Harbor Freight model (~$100) that I've used for a laminate flooring project and house/shop trimwork. But the other 99% of the time it's put away and I'll just use a jigsaw/handsaw/circular saw for breaking stuff down.

[Thomas Crawford]

My shop is pretty much the same size as yours, I agree a dedicated station is not worth it. The dust collection sucks, I only use it for breakdown of rough stock or random house projects. For furniture I'm using a Stanley 150 miter box and a shooting board with hand planes for precise sizing.

I do like this rolling cart, from fine woodworking plans.

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[Ron Selzer]

I prefer a radial arm saw built into the bench. Probably gets used more than table saw. Both miter saws are stowed away.
Ron

[richard poitras]

No comment on if needed but there are lots of portable stands for miter saws that work great . Also not sure of your lay out but you can set things up without walls in the middle of the shop back to back if needed?

We just got a portamate miter saw stand at work as we are limited with space and it works pretty good for occasional uses and then it folds up and also can be used for a work table.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlPMqD2P6Hg

[Bruce King]

Put an 80 tooth blade on your miter saw and take the time to adjust it for a perfect 90.
With practice you will use it for boards less than 12 inches while the TS is setup for something else. If making a lot of cuts just set up a fan to blow the dust away from you that the DC does not catch. Change blades when doing rough cuts.

[Jim Becker]

The answer to your question is going to vary be individual woodworker depending on methods they use/prefer, etc. My miter saw moved out of the "shop" and to the lumber storage area upstairs in the last year. It was never used for any kind of precision cutting...just rough cutting things to length...because of other tools I have and prefer to use for precision cross cutting. So it's now doing the same job, but outside of the "shop" where it's not taking up room that is better used for other things. But that's "me". The same may not work for "you" and others. Some folks find the miter saw to be a critical part of their workflow...you have to decide where you stand on that.

[Prashun Patel]

I hardly use my miter saw any more. I got a cordless circular saw for dusty lumber breakdown in the driveway.

Anything requiring accuracy I do on the table saw or (if 90) hand cut and shoot.

[Steve Demuth]

Like you, I have a small shop with minimal wall space. My miter saw spends a lot of time in storage, and comes out into the shop only for specific projects where it is a major contributor. Mostly it gets used for carpentry. I manage crosscuts with a combination of handsaws and crosscut and miter sleds on the table saw for precise cuts on reasonable length pieces. I'm sure it costs me a bit of time compared to having a dedicated cutoff station, but I'm not doing production work, and the cumulative cost to my efforts would add up to more than a couple of hours/year. I will be expanding my shop in the Spring, but a miter saw station is not a priority for the new space.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I don't see any reason why you'd need to have a miter saw if you don't want to. I am surprised that you'd use a jigsaw for crosscutting lumber to length, my experience with them has been that they take about 10 times longer to make a cut than a circular saw, and don't cut as straight of a line. Maybe this is just because I have only had underpowered jigsaws.

[Andrew Seemann]

Myself, I wouldn't be without a miter saw of some sort, either SCMS or a simple compound miter saw, they are just too convenient and handy, and was worth the space even when my shop was 14 x 22.

I started out with a mobile stand from a Pop Woodworking mag from about 20 years ago for my Makita SCMS. I eventually switched to a dedicated (though still movable) station for more stability, which combined a downdraft table. the router table on the right serves as a support for long boards. It is probably tied with the table saw for most used tool in the shop.

I actually wouldn't mind getting my 10" DeWalt CMS put back on a stand, it was kind of nice to have a non-slider available as well. I do mostly furniture, about 2/3 power tool and about 1/3 hand tool. I just don't have the time to do all hand tool work.

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[Clark Hussey]

I use my miter saw to break down lumber. Also for some repetitive cuts. My miter saw is built into a work bench. So I have an 8’ bench on one side and a 6’ bench on the other side. They make a good work area. Or place to pile stuff.

[roger wiegand]

You certainly don't need to have one if you don't want, woodworkers got by for many centuries without them. That said, I use mine continuously for precision work in furniture building. I've got a nice fence setup that allows me to cut everything I need to final length easily and the saw cuts everything up to a foot or so wide as perfectly square as I can measure, so what's not to like? It does take up a huge amount of space; it has been so useful for me that I've gladly dedicated an absurd amount of space to it. Dust collection sucks. No solution there. If my shop were twice as big and I could fit a nice slider table saw I might reconsider. As it is I can't fit the footprint of a slider and I can't cut as reliably square an end on a 6-7 ft long board on my TS with any of the various sleds and miter fences I've acquired over the years as I can with the miter saw.

[David Publicover]

I’m in the process of trying to wean myself off of my SCMS. I have an Makita that is accurate and has been useful over the years but I found that the space requirements and the poor dust control has made it hard to live with in my small 13x22’ shop. I’ve been breaking down rough lumber with a handsaw lately and using my table saw more often and am happy with the results.
If I had more room, I’d have it set up with a more effective dust hood than I had as I found the SCMS to be my worst dust offender by far. I had an 80 tooth blade in most of the time which may have added to the problem but it made excellent cuts.
17’x30’ is a nice sized shop. Enjoy!

[andrew whicker]

I personally vary between Contracting type work and furniture.. so I use it. But using it for furniture... I try not to. I have considered getting an arm saw and storing my miter for on site stuff. It is hard to beat for breaking down lumber, but for breaking down an arm saw would work and from what everyone says they are more accurate. The miter saws are hard to get dialed for angle cuts. It kinda turns into a science problem most times.

I have the Bosch miter saw.. it doesn't use sliders, but a 4 bar mechanism deal to extend. It saves room, for what it's worth.

A long board is hard to cut square on a table saw sometimes (even with a sled). But I also need to upgrade my sled for use with clamps.

[Andrew Hughes]

I have the Bosch Glide its ok.
Really wish I had the space for a Radial Arm saw.

[Frederick Skelly]

I like having a miter saw for woodworking tasks, including making furniture. I dont have room for a full up miter station, nor a sliding miter saw. But I ghave a 12" Makita on a small stand with a good (small) fence setup. I'm glad to have it. I use it mainly for cross-cutting (though I also have and Incra HD 1000 on the tablesaw.) Like AJ, I wish I had room for a Radial Arm Saw.

[David Stone (CT)]

Rather than use the miter saw to roughly dimension lumber, I would use a jigsaw instead to cross cut things to length.


By necessity, this is what I frequently must do: a circular saw, usually, a jig saw or handsaw sometimes, due to limitations on cross cut capacity both to the left and right of my saw. It works, of course. But to be honest, it gets old fast--getting the tool out, supporting the cut, cleaning up the sawdust on the shop floor, etc. When, someday hopefully, I get a bigger shop, I'm getting a miter saw situated such that I can just walk up make rough cross cuts and long cuts for carpentry projects.

[Richard Coers]

As far as I am concerned, a miter saw is for building decks. Sleds on a table saw make all the miters I use for furniture moldings.

[Derek Cohen]

My shop is 17’x30′ and I am seriously debating the merits of having a miter saw/chop saw in there. The end walls are curved (the shop is in a quonset style barn), so space along the straight walls is at a premium, and I’m just not certain the miter saw earns its keep. I notice that Becksvoort, and Tessolin don’t regularly use miter saws for furniture making, but it seems that many other “makers” and folks on YouTube have a designated miter saw station. I have a great table saw and a nice Incra 1000HD and plan to build a crosscut sled for cutting stock to length. What are your thoughts on having a miter saw for a furniture shop? I’d keep one around for doing trim and stuff in the house, but I’m not sure I need a Bosch Glide that I don’t want to lug into the house taking up room in my shop.

Rather than use the miter saw to roughly dimension lumber, I would use a jigsaw instead to cross cut things to length.

Thank you for your thoughts and experiences!

Alexander, if one has the space - which I do not - I would do as Jim does, that is, use it to break down rough boards, and keep it in the storage area. In other words, I do not consider a SCMS a tool for building furniture. But then I have had a sliding table saw for around 25 years, and this has done duty for precision crosscuts and mitres. If I did not have a slider, I would continue to use a circular saw for cutting up boards, and a sled for precision cross cuts on the table saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[roger wiegand]

I do not consider a SCMS a tool for building furniture.

Why ever not? Are we into one of those arguments about how the wood will "remember" that it's been cut with an "improper" tool? If the length and angle are precise, that's good enough for me. I'm not at all sure what else I might ask for.

For small boards that fit within a sled where I can set a positive stop for reproducible length I regularly cut them on the table saw. For boards that dangle out in space with no practical means to set a stop for length and fighting the forces of gravity and inertia to keep them square against a too-short fence the SCMS does a much better job.

I'm afraid I flunked the hand sawing course, I can't cut a straight line, square in two dimensions to save my soul. I'm filled with admiration and envy for those who can do it.

[Derek Cohen]

Roger, let me rephrase that: I do not consider the SCMC an essential tool for building furniture. That is basically what the OP wanted to know - that is, is he missing out by not having one. As you say, some will find it useful. Some may even find it essential. I have never had one, and I build furniture. Ergo, it cannot be essential. :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have gone back and forth on having a SCMS in my shop and currently do not, but only because of limited space and some recent tool acquisitions and a new shop layout pushed it off the current priority list.

They are space hogs and my shop is so small and oddly configured that it never really conveniently fit in to the available space I had to give it, so it was usually setup on the portable Dewalt stand and taken down as needed or taken to job sites for install / carpentry work, which is where it’s been for about 6 months now.

I don’t really use it in furniture making / fine woodworking for finished cuts, but it’s very convenient / quick for rough - close to finished cuts compared to a circular saw/jigsaw/handsaw/table saw crosscut sled. Some stuff is just too long for the crosscut sled. That’s what I’m missing the most is quick cuts and not having to stop, set the board up with clamps and get out a “blank” saw to crosscut something down less accurately than a finished cut.

I have another, smaller older Hitachi 8 1/2” slider (great saw) on the same stand that I keep in my garage, which is more of a carpentry work area, but not really close enough to the shop for me to say “I’ll just take this out to the garage and cut it in the miter saw out there” when I’m working in the woodshop, indoors 50’ away.

If I had space, I would build a dedicated miter saw station with 6-8’ on either side of the blade with stops, dust collection and slap an Omga in there and be done with it, but I don’t have that kind of space in my shop as it’s configured now.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

A mitre/chop/jump/scms is by far the fastest and most space conscious (with some thought to table layout) way to repeatedly and accurately cut to length. IMHO, no there is no replacement for them in a furniture shop because:

Any technique that requires the wood to move to the blade, instead of the blade moving, requires stock support proportional to the size of the materials. That means that the crosscut sleds, or sliding table saws have to be as big as the materials you handle. That quickly becomes a space hog in operation, easily more so than a chop saw. Wood is also heavy and crosscutting it on a sled or slider takes more effort than just laying it on a chop saw stand and going to work, especially important if you are processing bigger or lots of materials.

Any technique that uses portable saws to rough cut, then be cleaned up on a sled or slider require two steps. Unless a jig table like the Festool MFT is used, but then you are not saving space again.

Chop saws are generally cheap compared to other tools to. Compare the cost of an Incra sled, or a track saw to a chop saw, turns out the chop saw is a bargain.

You can use whatever technique that floats your boat, but the chop saw has earned a place in most shops.

[mike stenson]

So, for those concerned about high accuracy while breaking down larger stock... are you dimensioning before you break it down? I really don't care about break-down accuracy to anything greater than say +/- 1/4" as I still have to join, then thickness the stock anyway.

I'm not talking about cross cutting really long work. There a sled would be less convenient, to be sure.

[Brian Holcombe]

I break down wide long boards by hand.

A miter saw that is accurate is hugely useful. Referring to an Omga or similar, rigidly built with a fine blade.

A construction level miter saw is not useful outside of rough cutting.

[Von Bickley]

I probably use my miter saw on every project that I work on.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

A construction level miter saw is not useful outside of rough cutting.

Ehhh, I don't agree. My construction grade saws are perfectly capable of being accurate when used properly.

[Bill Carey]

I guess I'm at the other end of the spectrum from a lot of the answers you've gotten. I would miss my 40 year old Ryobi 8-1/2" slider quite a bit - I use it almost every time I'm in the shop. It gets used to break down lumber of course, but also to cut to finish length as well, and it is still dead nuts accurate: 90 degrees vertically as well horizontally. If I have a lot of pieces to cut I'll clamp on a temp fence with a stop block and they all come out precisely the same length. Maybe I use it so much because I spent 25 years as a trim carpenter with it, or maybe because the way my shop is set up it's right behind the bench and is more convenient that the TS which is on the other side of the room. Dust collection - well, no, not really. This is what it looked like after cutting all the rough stock and then the finish lengths for a set of chairs I made. I forget what I had the TS set up for but didn't want to change it.

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To me, it's an essential part of the shop. After 40 years, there is no reason to replace it.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ehhh, I don't agree. My construction grade saws are perfectly capable of being accurate when used properly.

Please define proper use.

[Jim Dwight]

My shop garage is 14x24. My one long wall without windows holds a dual bevel 12 inch non sliding miter saw and an old radial arm saw I hardly use. Lumber is stored above it. Tools are stored below in drawers. I had the same arrangement in my last shop so I've had a shop organized this way for over 20 years. I do cross cuts that are less than 8 inches on the CMS including for furniture. I have movable stops along the bench and I use old business cords against the stops to fine tune critical cuts.

I also have a SawStop PCS with a Osborne gauge and a sled that has been tuned with the 5 cut method. But, for me, the CMS on it's bench is handier and more accurate for cross cutting. Especially if the piece is at all large. Trying to move something like a bed rail or headboard cross pieces or even a leg through the table saw is just not my idea of a good practice. Much easier to position a stop and cut it on the CMS. I am not trying to criticize others, just saying what works for me.

The reason I do not have a sliding CMS is they take up too much room and the arms are too easily deflected affecting the accuracy. I haven't used them a lot, however, so they might work better than I think. If I need a wider cross cut I use my track saw. Works great. My table saw outfeed table is also my track saw cutting station and my assembly table.

[Doug Dawson]

No comment on if needed but there are lots of portable stands for miter saws that work great . Also not sure of your lay out but you can set things up without walls in the middle of the shop back to back if needed?

We just got a portamate miter saw stand at work as we are limited with space and it works pretty good for occasional uses and then it folds up and also can be used for a work table.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlPMqD2P6Hg

Wow! That’s amazingly cool. If only it had a provision (accessory?) for end stops, like the other stands out there. What are y’all using for that?

A built-in dust shroud would also be nice, and easy for them to have done. For 300 simoleans, I want it all! :^)

[Mike Kees]

I do not have a permanent miter saw set-up at my shop. I find it faster and more accurate to use my slider for crosscuts especially finish cuts. If I want or need a miter saw I will set up my saw table that I use on jobsites in the shop.

[Doug Dawson]

Please define proper use.

Number one would be don’t try to use “body english” on the saw handle (not to mention using a sharp high quality blade, and calibrating the darn thing.)

[Brian Holcombe]

My Omga has held square for nearly two years now, daily use. I’ve yet to see a construction saw hold square for two cuts.

If I spend 10 minutes/week squaring a construction grade saw, that makes 520 minutes of wasted shop hours. If I spend two hours a week fixing poorly made cuts then I’m looking at 104 wasted hours per year or roughly two weeks of wasted time.

If I reference off of those cuts for tenoning, now I’m looking at even more wasted time and poorly fitting joints. Not to mention furniture that assembled out if square. Now I have to spend time fitting things and squaring cabinets that should have assembled square. More wasted time.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Please define proper use.

On one of the scms that go to jobsites and processes piles of 2x6s, the first and most important is a good blade. Then set stops and make a test cut. Generally that's all, but occasionally the fence stops get moved in transport and need addressed. Heavy use on a construction site also tends to build up yuk in the detents and they need blown out. Test cut catches all that though, and it's not a big deal to address. However I try to leave a 1013 in the shop not for jobsite use and it's always ready to go.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Number one would be don’t try to use “body english” on the saw handle (not to mention using a sharp high quality blade, and calibrating the darn thing.)

The trouble comes when you want dead on accuracy at both 90* (in both directions) and want the same dead on accuracy at mitered angles and having it remain dead on as your change the settings. No construction grade miter saw I’ve used is built to good enough tolerances to expect it to give you that type of performance even after fussing with it...especially sliding saws. There’s too much slop in the rails along the length of travel that they can’t be trusted for 100% accuracy with finished cuts. I’m talking square to within a couple thousands of an inch or less in both directions. That’s unreasonable to expect from a construction grade miter saw of any kind.

Some parameters have to be defined in order to have an educated and accurate discussion about the finer points.

How thick is the material you’re cutting? Super dense hardwoods or softwoods? Absolute, dead on finished cuts or anything rougher? Expectations of “square” and accuracy expectations in your work? How close is good enough for you? All these things and more will influence what’s acceptable or not.

I’ve learned that even the “best” construction miter saw (Festool Kapex) isn’t reliably accurate enough for finished cuts in thicker hardwoods and now don’t have that expectation of any construction grade miter saw, no matter how much tuning happens.

There’s a huge difference in cutting 3” thick hard maple in a furniture level application and 3/4” trim/casing/baseboard material and how the blade/saw deflects with the harder and thicker woods even with premium blades.

[Brian Holcombe]

On one of the scms that go to jobsites and processes piles of 2x6s, the first and most important is a good blade. Then set stops and make a test cut. Generally that's all, but occasionally the fence stops get moved in transport and need addressed. Heavy use on a construction site also tends to build up yuk in the detents and they need blown out. Test cut catches all that though, and it's not a big deal to address. However I try to leave a 1013 in the shop not for jobsite use and it's always ready to go.

Original question was directed at furniture making.

[mike stenson]

Yep, I use a (and I'll be very pedantic here) powered miter saw for construction.. otherwise it sits unused. I've never seen one that wouldn't leave an uneven shaving on a shooting board.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

What the heck are you guys doing with your poor miter saws to make them cut so badly???? You all do realize that 90% of furniture cuts are 90 degree angles, the other 10% are miters that can all be done at once, right? I can't think of any reason, even with a saw that has trouble finding a a perfect spot in a detent, of how anyone can't figure out how to make an acceptable cut with a chop saw. Seriously, if you have to spend Omga $, or completely avoid a chop saw altogether, you are either shooting for unobtainable and irrelevant perfection, or running the saw wrong.

[Phillip Mitchell]

What the heck are you guys doing with your poor miter saws to make them cut so badly???? You all do realize that 90% of furniture cuts are 90 degree angles, the other 10% are miters that can all be done at once, right? I can't think of any reason, even with a saw that has trouble finding a a perfect spot in a detent, of how anyone can't figure out how to make an acceptable cut with a chop saw. Seriously, if you have to spend Omga $, or completely avoid a chop saw altogether, you are either shooting for unobtainable and irrelevant perfection, or running the saw wrong.

It’s not that they cut “so badly”, it’s that they aren’t reliably accurate to a high level of precision specifically in thick hardwood in my experience. Many would say that I have an unrealistic and “irrelevant goal of perfection” and I would call is optimal precision and accuracy that I can trust. In my experience (and I know I’m not the only one), construction grade miter saws are not reliably accurate enough in demanding furniture applications to be completely trusted. Like I said in my previous post, without defining the context of accuracy or personal expectations we can run around in circles with each other all day saying what we each believe to be true.

Some of us are “extreme” in our demand for accuracy from machines, but only because we know it to be possible and worth pursuing for our particular situation or preference.

Just to be clear, I have worked as a carpenter for many years as well and understand what is usually “good enough or acceptable” in most Homebuilding situations, but high level furniture work for clients (or yourself if you’re picky for that matter) is a totally different level of precision and can require a different build quality of machine to achieve accurate and repeatable results, in this case without having to say, take every cut to a shooting board after the miter saw because it wasn’t quite perfect.

[Doug Dawson]

My Omga has held square for nearly two years now, daily use. I’ve yet to see a construction saw hold square for two cuts.

My DeWalt 780 with a 100 tooth blade can cut equivalent to a fine hand saw, can do it faster, repeatably, all day long, and produces a near finish quality end grain (not that you ever want to see end grain.) Nothing more needs to be done to it. Everything fits and machines just fine.

If it was good enough for the Ancients, it’s good enough for me.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Original question was directed at furniture making.

Yes, that's what it takes to get one of the jobsite saws set for furniture parts processing.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

It’s not that they cut “so badly”, it’s that they aren’t reliably accurate to a high level of precision specifically in thick hardwood in my experience. Many would say that I have an unrealistic and “irrelevant goal of perfection” and I would call is optimal precision and accuracy that I can trust. In my experience (and I know I’m not the only one), construction grade miter saws are not reliably accurate enough in demanding furniture applications to be completely trusted. Like I said in my previous post, without defining the context of accuracy or personal expectations we can run around in circles with each other all day saying what we each believe to be true.

Some of us are “extreme” in our demand for accuracy from machines, but only because we know it to be possible and worth pursuing for our particular situation or preference.

Just to be clear, I have worked as a carpenter for many years as well and understand what is usually “good enough or acceptable” in most Homebuilding situations, but high level furniture work for clients (or yourself if you’re picky for that matter) is a totally different level of precision and can require a different build quality of machine to achieve accurate and repeatable results, in this case without having to say, take every cut to a shooting board after the miter saw because it wasn’t quite perfect.

I get it, the pursuit of perfection is a discipline in itself, sometimes that is the best day in the shop. Ironically, it's building to looser tolerances in carpentry that makes me appreciate accuracy more. That being said, finishing a project requires picking a precision level that is adequate and working within that parameter. Some are tighter than others in my shop to. However, I don't agree that all chop saws are inherently inaccurate. Heck, I have a really nice slider saw, and a cabinet of Starretts to check setups. I know what accuracy looks like. Yes you can goof up a cut with a SCMS, but you can do it just as easily on my Felder. I'm really not proud of a miter I made on the Felder for a corner fireplace mantle just yesterday.

To each their own, IMHO though the SCMS is a furniture tool to. No worries if you want to use some other method, just putting an alternative perspective out there.

[Derek Cohen]

There are different factors involved here, and they lead to many replies at cross purposes.

Working in a shop is different to working on a jobsite. I struggle to imagine Brian lugging his Olga to the jobsite :) I also recall that Brian traded his Festool for the Olga for the increased reliability. That brings in another factor - he is a professional woodworker and, as noted, he cannot afford to lose time.

A third factor is that the average amateur, like myself, is not working a production line.

A fourth factor is how one builds: in my furniture, generally one-offs, I fit parts to one another, and measurements are taken from the part and not necessarily from a plan or requiring a square line.

As a amateur, I also have the time for a work-around, and I suspect that the OP is the same. There are other tools to do the job, and there is the time for this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Zaret]

hey brian - i would love to know what blade you are using on your Omga. i have a tenyru blade on mine right now, and it's likely not the correct tooth profile, though it seems to cut ok. thanks for any advice.

-- dz




My Omga has held square for nearly two years now, daily use. I’ve yet to see a construction saw hold square for two cuts.

If I spend 10 minutes/week squaring a construction grade saw, that makes 520 minutes of wasted shop hours. If I spend two hours a week fixing poorly made cuts then I’m looking at 104 wasted hours per year or roughly two weeks of wasted time.

If I reference off of those cuts for tenoning, now I’m looking at even more wasted time and poorly fitting joints. Not to mention furniture that assembled out if square. Now I have to spend time fitting things and squaring cabinets that should have assembled square. More wasted time.

[Brian Holcombe]

What the heck are you guys doing with your poor miter saws to make them cut so badly???? You all do realize that 90% of furniture cuts are 90 degree angles, the other 10% are miters that can all be done at once, right? I can't think of any reason, even with a saw that has trouble finding a a perfect spot in a detent, of how anyone can't figure out how to make an acceptable cut with a chop saw. Seriously, if you have to spend Omga $, or completely avoid a chop saw altogether, you are either shooting for unobtainable and irrelevant perfection, or running the saw wrong.

Or the perfection is relevant and I know the value of wasted shop hours.

[Eric Schmid]

I like having a miter saw on the bench. Under the miter saw is storage. Over the miter saw is storage. My last shop had a 16’ long miter bench, because I had that much to store. Also served as a table saw outfeed.

One reason a miter saw is useful for my work is that it’s another crosscut tool that compliments table saws that may already be set up for other operations. If I have a table saw set up for dados and another for ripping, the addition of a miter saw allows me to leave the other saws in position. A bandsaw might also serve as a similar extension of capacity.

Some are likely more organized in their approach to building. I’m generally building prototypes or one off designs, so I’m not always able to follow a rigid process. Projects are often roughed out on paper, then fine tuned as I go. Having multiple machines that can overlap in capabilities is useful in my process. Might not be in yours.

As for accuracy, I have found fixed head miter saws to be more accurate and repeatable than sliders. I own two sliders, primarily for the versatility they offer in the field. I have tuned these to be very accurate, but they do need recalibration from time to time.

In my shop sits a single fixed head 14” Makita miter saw. It does not bevel and rarely leaves the 90 degree detent. It cuts as accurately as it did when I last calibrated it some years ago. I make finish cuts for passage door rails and stiles with it, amongst other things. Cuts are very accurate.

[Brian Holcombe]

hey brian - i would love to know what blade you are using on your Omga. i have a tenyru blade on mine right now, and it's likely not the correct tooth profile, though it seems to cut ok. thanks for any advice.

-- dz

Tenryu Miter Pro Plus, produces a glass-like finish.

[roger wiegand]

Just for the record, I'd like to submit that I have made terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts using a powered miter saw, a table saw, a fancy hand saw, a jig saw, shooting board and plane, chain saw, laser cutter, and probably a half dozen other means of dividing a board in two. It is completely possible (not even hard!) to make an unacceptable cut with virtually any tool given insufficient skill and attention.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Just for the record, I'd like to submit that I have made terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts using a powered miter saw, a table saw, a fancy hand saw, a jig saw, shooting board and plane, chain saw, laser cutter, and probably a half dozen other means of dividing a board in two. It is completely possible (not even hard!) to make an unacceptable cut with virtually any tool given insufficient skill and attention.

:D I think we’ve all been there, Roger!

[Bill Carey]

Just for the record, I'd like to submit that I have made terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts using a powered miter saw, a table saw, a fancy hand saw, a jig saw, shooting board and plane, chain saw, laser cutter, and probably a half dozen other means of dividing a board in two. It is completely possible (not even hard!) to make an unacceptable cut with virtually any tool given insufficient skill and attention.

Holy cow - a sharpening thread disguised as a discussion of miter boxes. I agree Roger, but would add that “terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts” may in fact be perfection for some.

It is not a matter of perfection being relevant or irrelevant, but rather that perfection is relative – we each decide the degree of difficulty we are willing to endure (or in the case of OMGA tools, to purchase) to achieve what we each determine to be perfect. And having pegged our standards to a certain level, then repeatability, speed and consistency are processes to be developed to support that standard.

Regarding a job site box being (un)able to make 2 perfect cuts in a row, I took it as a challenge. First I squared up a 2x5 inch piece of white oak on my Cutech jointer (I’m sure to some, mistake number 1), the ran it thru the Dewalt planer (number 2?) set the 40 year old Ryobi to 90 and made a cut. According to my Starrett, perfect. Made the second cut – same thing according to my Starrett. Not exactly a unicorn, but there ya go.

And I’m sure there is an ASTM standard that would show the cuts to be absolutely horrible. But I would wager there is an ASTM test that would show the same lack of perfection on cuts made by an OMGA box. An angstrom here, and angstrom there – it all adds up.

Being an old and poor fool, I succumb to the eventuality – I make do.

[jamil mehdi]

There are way too many people here who think their way is the ONLY way. Miter saws can be as accurate as you need them to be. All tools can be dialed in and all tools can be sloppy. People who say a crosscut sled is better are ignoring that many shop built crosscut sleds aren't very accurate because not everyone builds a perfect sled. People who say miter saws are only good for construction aren't taking into account permanent mounting, different blades, accurate fence stops, and tuning.

I have two miter saws set up to make repeatable cuts. One is a slider with a thick Tenryu blade used for 90 degree crosscuts on faceframe and door parts, the other is a non slider used for miters (followed up by a miter trimmer). The saws are both permanently mounted and the outfeeds are flat and the fences are square, have shop stops, and they are set back 1/4" from the miter saw fence to allow for breaking down rough boards.

I tune the big saw every week or two, but it rarely needs adjustment. The space below the feed tables are used for tool and hardware storage. And the the whole work station doubles as a nice long flat area for layout or parts storage when not being used.

I have nothing against miter sleds, but I deal with a lot of 8' finished length pieces, so a miter sled has no real use to me. Also, from a production standpoint, crosscut sleds are simply not efficient enough for me when dealing with a few hundred pieces of different lengths. In my shop, a miter saw is essential.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. The original question is "Does a miter saw have any place in a furniture shop". The true answer is "It can have a place, but doesn't have to". Anyone who says a hard yes or a hard no may have a helpful point of view, but their inflexibility should be a warning sign that you're getting a very biased opinion.

[Andrew Seemann]

Just for the record, I'd like to submit that I have made terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts using a powered miter saw, a table saw, a fancy hand saw, a jig saw, shooting board and plane, chain saw, laser cutter, and probably a half dozen other means of dividing a board in two. It is completely possible (not even hard!) to make an unacceptable cut with virtually any tool given insufficient skill and attention.

I don't think I have found a tool yet that I haven't found a way to use inaccurately. I also have used many tools and methods to produce beautiful, straight, cuts, that were, say, exactly 1 inch short, or off by exactly 5 degrees. Not to mention countless mirror images of what I had intended to do:)

Just last night I cut some dados for Z clips, with exactly the right offset, measured exactly from the wrong side of the board, which was exactly what I told myself not to do before I cut them. I even had to take the handle of my biscuit joiner before I did it, to allow the tool clearance to do it from the wrong side. At least I didn't cut them on the face side of the board too.

[Brian Holcombe]

There are way too many people here who think their way is the ONLY way. Miter saws can be as accurate as you need them to be. All tools can be dialed in and all tools can be sloppy. People who say a crosscut sled is better are ignoring that many shop built crosscut sleds aren't very accurate because not everyone builds a perfect sled. People who say miter saws are only good for construction aren't taking into account permanent mounting, different blades, accurate fence stops, and tuning.

I have two miter saws set up to make repeatable cuts. One is a slider with a thick Tenryu blade used for 90 degree crosscuts on faceframe and door parts, the other is a non slider used for miters (followed up by a miter trimmer). The saws are both permanently mounted and the outfeeds are flat and the fences are square, have shop stops, and they are set back 1/4" from the miter saw fence to allow for breaking down rough boards.

I tune the big saw every week or two, but it rarely needs adjustment. The space below the feed tables are used for tool and hardware storage. And the the whole work station doubles as a nice long flat area for layout or parts storage when not being used.

I have nothing against miter sleds, but I deal with a lot of 8' finished length pieces, so a miter sled has no real use to me. Also, from a production standpoint, crosscut sleds are simply not efficient enough for me when dealing with a few hundred pieces of different lengths. In my shop, a miter saw is essential.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. The original question is "Does a miter saw have any place in a furniture shop". The true answer is "It can have a place, but doesn't have to". Anyone who says a hard yes or a hard no may have a helpful point of view, but their inflexibility should be a warning sign that you're getting a very biased opinion.

Rather, I’m providing my point of view, something which was requested by the OP. If you disagree, that’s fine.

Im of the very strong opinion that only industrial chop saws, industrial radial arms and Sliding table saws can produce repeatable accuracy for years without constant adjustment and make joints which fit together perfectly tightly.

If you are getting that out of a job site chop saw, great. I had to do more to achieve it.

[Frederick Skelly]

In my shop, a miter saw is essential.

This to me is the crux of the argument. For what I build, and for how I use it, my CMS is a valuable tool - in MY shop. For someone like Brian Holcombe, who builds magnificent, delicate, hyper-precision Japanese screens and such, it's not. So, I agree with what Jamil said - "Does a miter saw have any place in a furniture shop. The true answer is It can have a place, but doesn't have to".

And as Bill Carey points out, what I can afford is also important. I cant justify many high end tools for my hobbyist shop - it doesnt make sense, for ME. So I've learned how to set up what I have to get the most out of them.

YMMV

[Bernie Kopfer]

Jamil, how dare you suggest that some of us have strong biased opinions. Don’t you know our fragile egos cannot take truthful criticism well?

[mike stenson]

Well, I suppose without opinion there's no point of discussion. We would just all be the same :)

[jamil mehdi]

[edit] Ignore this. I'm not going down this path

[Rod Sheridan]

I own a mitre saw, it's main function is to collect dust in the shop as it sits under the lathe.:D

The only furniture related cutting it has done is cut rough stock to oversize length for further machining. All precision cutting is done on the format saw or band saw.

My mitre saw is handy when I need to cut boards for construction projects outside, however I don't have a use for one when making furniture. I now normally use a Sawzall for rough cutting to length if I don't use the table saw for that, the dust doesn't get blown all over the shop....Rod.

[Alexander Young]

Thank you all for your responses. I have a Bosch 12" glide saw, and I was debating selling it, but I think I'll just keep it. I need storage space, and right now the saw lives under a wood storage rack where it would be hard to put anything else. It seems to be pretty accurate for stuff like long rails and the like and I have it set up so it will cut square along its 12" reach. I also don't anticipate having to move it much to actually cut miters or anything so hopefully it will stay put.

[Jack Llewyllson]

If I had space, I would build a dedicated miter saw station with 6-8’ on either side of the blade with stops, dust collection and slap an Omga in there and be done with it, but I don’t have that kind of space in my shop as it’s configured now.

Whoa!

I had to go look up "Omga." I'm now either intrigued or regretful to have learned about them. First machine I clicked on was their "double miter saw," which at over $42K is three-quarters the contract cost of my shop building. :eek:

Probably best I stick with my 8-1/2" Hitachi SCMS, which I've found indispensable over the years. If I stop framing house projects, little sheds, outdoor furniture, and garden appurtenances, I may evict it. That seems doubtful, though. It's become part of my work habits and practice, and I can hit a more accurate cut with it than by hand. It can also shave a slightly overlength workpiece much faster than setting up a shooting board with a hand plane.

When I first bought it used, 20+ years ago, I thought it was a little bit of magic. Still think so. It continues to earn its nickname, "The Buttersaw." With a high-count blade, it leaves a cleaner surface than my block plane, and Hitachi's slide bearings are (were...?) incredible. Solid accuracy, too -- for me, much more accurate with long workpieces than my x-cut sled.

Talent-wise, I'm not worthy to stand in a distant corner of the shadow of most of you. For my hackin' about, a SCMS is fundamentally useful.

It is a messy beast, though. In my new shop, it's going to park in the same functional place as in the old: near the roll-up door, with a fan blowing clouds of mulch out onto the driveway. :D

[Jim Becker]

Jack, you can find them used in many cases. I'm really impressed with the one that Brian has in his shop. (smaller version that's perfect for what so many of us do)

[Phillip Mitchell]

Jack,

Omga makes a lot of different saws, some of them much more than what I would find useful. You can typically find nice condition used and simple Omga miter saws (not sliding) for around $1k and up and then that much or more again for a really nice and super accurate stop system. Not something I would say a hobbyist would typically find value in, but extremely useful and eventually profitable for a professional.

[Jim Becker]

Not something I would say a hobbyist would typically find value in, but extremely useful and eventually profitable for a professional.

A lot of "hobbyists" and "folks making for a living" have a similar appreciation for quality, precise tools. There are many folks here in this very community where woodworking is a personal, non-paying, avocational pursuit who resemble that remark. :) It's true that a large percentage of the so-called hobbyist woodworking community choose more modest machines and "value" does play a role there, especially because of available budget, so they buy the best they can afford. But sometimes it's because they don't know that better options exist. I never heard of Omga until the brand came up in conversation a year or two ago here at SMC. After those enlightening conversations as well as seeing Brian's up close and personal, I can honestly say that if I felt I had a need for this kind of tool, I'd strongly consider finding one for my shop. (as previously mentioned, I rarely use a miter saw other than rough cutting lumber, so I'm not currently a candidate for an Omga...)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I had a SCMS made by Delta that I was never happy with as it could be tuned for perfect 90º cuts but if moved to a different angle, all bets were off and one needed to retune it when it returned to 90º. Finally, I found a home for it where it would be used as a job site saw and I bought a replacement Dewalt. I have been extremely happy with the 12" Dewalt slider. I also have an extremely accurate miter sled for my tablesaw. I built it using the William Ng 5 cut method. Which one I use depends on the cut needed.

[mike stenson]

A lot of "hobbyists" and "folks making for a living" have a similar appreciation for quality, precise tools.

That's true, not even taking the posts here into consideration, I've seen "hobbyist" shops that, dollar wise in terms of tools, blow away many production shops I've seen. If you can do it, and want to more power to ya :)

Ultimately, how we equip our shops is as personal as how we work.

[Phillip Mitchell]

A lot of "hobbyists" and "folks making for a living" have a similar appreciation for quality, precise tools. There are many folks here in this very community where woodworking is a personal, non-paying, avocational pursuit who resemble that remark. :) It's true that a large percentage of the so-called hobbyist woodworking community choose more modest machines and "value" does play a role there, especially because of available budget, so they buy the best they can afford. But sometimes it's because they don't know that better options exist. I never heard of Omga until the brand came up in conversation a year or two ago here at SMC. After those enlightening conversations as well as seeing Brian's up close and personal, I can honestly say that if I felt I had a need for this kind of tool, I'd strongly consider finding one for my shop. (as previously mentioned, I rarely use a miter saw other than rough cutting lumber, so I'm not currently a candidate for an Omga...)

Jim,

Of course, I don’t mean to offend anyone; I was speaking more from a return on investment perspective comparing an Omga level saw with integrated dust collection and a nice, pro stop system to what most hobbyist would consider good enough (a construction grade miter saw with probably a less expensive, maybe shop-made stop system.)

Of course there are hobbyist who have more expensive shops than most pros, but in general, I think it’s safe to say that it would be a weightier decision for a hobbyist who is not producing woodwork for a living to justify the expense from an ROI point of view...though of course, the same could be said of any other tool in the shop that is purely for pleasure and recreation.

All I meant is that it’s likely more money than most folks who aren’t trying to maximize efficiency in order to make a living would consider spending to make accurate cross cuts.