Completely Confused About Grinding Plane Sharpening

[Tom Mayock]

I am trying to pick up some hand tool skills, and I understand that sharpening correctly is very important for getting the best performance out of the tools. I have been reading -- arguably too much -- about how to sharpen plane blades, and I am now totally confused about the grinding part of the sharpening process. Some discussions of sharpening start with someone taking the iron to a grinding wheel, while other discussions start the process with oil or water stones. Can a plane blade be properly sharpened without using a grinder?

If a grinder is required, how often do you need to regrind the primary bevel?

I have a Stanley 5 that I purchased off of Craigslist that I am trying to learn on. I do not have a bench grinder, and given my limited space, I would really prefer to not have to use one. So far I have been trying to get by using a cheapo two sided sharpening stone from Amazon. Results have been meh. I just ordered this set of oil stones (https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/product_details.php?category_name=Arkansas%20Sharp ening%20Stones&product_id=77) and got a strop. I have also been using a honing guide.


Apologies if this should be obvious. Sometimes there is too much information on the internet.

[Rafael Herrera]

To grind your plane iron or chisel means to remove a significant amount of metal. You can achieve that with a bench grinder or very coarse sand paper.

Your blade may need grinding if it's chipped or grossly out of square.

You can also grind with a sharpening stone rated as coarse, but be prepared to spend some time achieving your desired shape.

[ken hatch]

To grind your plane iron or chisel means to remove a significant amount of metal. You can achieve that with a bench grinder or very coarse sand paper.

Or a course stone.

The first stage of sharpening is grinding where you shape the bevel with course grit. The second is honing were you use a finer grit to remove the scratches from the grinding stage and last is polishing where you polish the bevel with very fine grit.

There are many ways to do any of the three stages. A powered grinder is not required.

ken

[glenn bradley]

Sharpening is certainly one area where there are many, many right answers. The use of a grinding wheel creates a concave geometry on the face of a cutter. This leaves a smaller surface area to be sharpened and honed. This is not right or wrong, simply a strategy that some folks use.

443518

You will be unable to find someone or some source to give you the end-all sharpening advice. I recommend you choose one method to start with, invest as little money as you can to try it out and then take the next step. Some of us use diamond stones, some oil stones, ceramics, Worksharp 3000, Tormek, scary sharp, wet stones and combinations of any and all of these. To find your way you will have to begin. Copying the way I do it may not be good for you, maybe it is? Copying a You Tuber may not be good for you, maybe it is? You will find your way but, you must pick one to start with and begin. Have fun.

[justin sherriff]

No a grinder is not needed. A grinder is used to do a hard reset or what is called a hollow grind witch is helpful if you sharpen freehand.
If you need to start with some thing coarser than the stones you can use sand paper on a peace of glass or granite tile. I have a belt sander I will use some times.

With sharpening there are a lot of ways to get there just pick one and stick with it. With time you will get better.

[Erich Weidner]

I only got a grinder this year, and specifically for wood turning tool sharpening (which is now my latest new hobby).
I've never used it for planes or chisels. Though I am planning to use it to create a cambered Jack plane blade (lots of material to remove)

So, you definitely don't need one. Stones work just fine, just take longer. You will only do your first rough sharpening on a grinder, all the subsequent steps will be stones (or sandpaper or abrasive pastes/etc.)
I've never changed the bevel angle on my stuff. My 600 grit waterstone has always worked for me for course sharpening.

Also, one can get into trouble on a grinder if you overheat your tool steel.

[Tom Mayock]

Thanks everyone so much everyone for the clarification. This really helps a lot.

It looks like the coarse stone in the set that I just ordered is 600 grit oil stone. Would you say this is coarse enough to handle grinding?

[Erich Weidner]

It looks like the coarse stone in the set that I just ordered is 600 grit oil stone. Would you say this is coarse enough to handle grinding?
I've never used oil stones, but my 600 waterstone has always worked fine for me. I only use it if I'm fixing a nick in the blade, otherwise the 1,000 stone is what I start with when a tool gets dull.
From what others have said, the type of steel on your tools will matter with your sharpening system. Many threads here on sharpening, the rabbit hole runs deep.

Disclaimer: I don't have the time under my belt sharpening that many here have. I have yet to wear out a stone.

[Derek Cohen]

A grinder reduces the amount of steel to sharpen. This is pretty relevant with modern thick blades. However, with the thin blades used by Stanley (and others), it is quite possible to create a primary bevel freehand/guided on coarse stones. A diamond stone would be good here.

It is all about efficiency in creating a honed cutting edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rafael Herrera]

Your set is made up of Arkansas stones. I don't have experience with the soft ones (the soft label is just relative to the others, it's still a hard stone), but I use a stone that is related to the softs called a Washita. It is a coarse stone, but one can finish with it. I normally go to the strop after it. Washita stones are another rabbit hole.

If this soft is a 600 grit equiv, it may be too slow for significant blade repairs. If you want to stick with oilstones, a coarse crystolon has worked well for me when I need to be aggressive.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Tom, about 12 years ago My sharpening skill advanced from “huh?” to “I got this” by following a method that has since become second nature to me. It did take paying careful attention to the steps, so I made it a study of sorts. Now sharpening to an exceptionally high degree is a given in my shop. Plane irons, cambers, chisels, spokeshave blades, even spear-point marking knives come out sharp, fast and reliably.

I tell you this not to claim there’s anything special about me. I just adopted the method of a master, and avoided all the pitfalls of the learning (and spending) curve. I talk about it all the time here, but I don’t believe anyone has ever commented on my posts. (Everyone has a pet method they advocate, each for good reasons I’m sure.) If you are interested in finding out about this method, PM me and I’ll point you in its direction.

Wow, that sounded like an infomercial! I assure you I have no commercial dog in this race.

Oh, and I never owned a grinder until 2019, so you won’t need one for a while, as long as you don’t buy damaged edge tools.

[Michael J Evans]

Another uniformed opinion here. I have a soft white Arkansas stone, I would never ever want to do any major reshaping on it. Maybe I'm Impatient or lazy but it would take forever. I also have a 320 diamond, I still find that slow, for completely changing a bevel. If I buy some old best up chisels I start with a low grit sand paper (120) or something along those lines. Now that I have a grinder, I freehand grind it close, then course paper then diamonds.

[Jim Koepke]

If you are interested in finding out about this method, PM me and I’ll point you in its direction.

Bob. Tom is not a contributor so he may not have Private Message privileges.

Tom, you are off to a good start. You may need to adhere abrasive sheets to a piece of stone or glass as has been suggested by others if you buy a lot of chisels at yard/estate/garage sales and such.

My powered sharpening is a flat disk system from Lee Valley> Veritas Mk11 Power Sharpening System (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/power-systems/48435-veritas-mk-ii-power-sharpening-system?item=05M3101) < Click it, it's a link.

This creates a flat bevel. A hollow grind is a bit easier for free hand sharpening.

My blades are rarely ground on this once the bevel has been established. My blades are not intentionally given a secondary bevel. My opinion is learning to get a sharp edge is an important first step before trying every blade sharpening trick that may be recommended by others. There are as many ways to sharpen as there are people who sharpen tools, maybe even more.

My preference used to be to use water stones. My first go around with Arkansas stones didn't work too well. It is funny how after my sharpening skills improved the Arkansas stones started working a lot better. Now my water stones mostly get used for sharpening my A2 blades.

A strop is also helpful. One blade being sharpened today wouldn't slice paper off of the black Arkansas. All it took was two passes on each side on the strop and it sliced paper without a problem. There is often an imperceptible burr at the edge. Some times just pulling it across the sleeve of my jean jacket or the side of my pant leg is enough to take care of it.

jtk

[Robert Hazelwood]

No, your 600 grit stone is not coarse enough for actual "grinding". It's fine for the first phase of sharpening but if you need to restore basic geometry or remove knicks/damage, what you want is 80 grit PSA sandpaper stuck down to something flat like a granite surface block. That will remove metal faster than any stone I've used, and won't go out of flat.

With a stanley blade, it's thin enough that you can reasonably maintain a full flat bevel using your oil stones. In that case you don't need to worry about a primary bevel, so you'd only use your "grinding" setup if you get knicks or need to reset the edge geometry.

If you want to create a primary bevel, get a cheap eclipse-style honing guide and set it for about 20 degrees. Use it on the 80 grit sanding block, and work until the 20 degree bevel extends almost all the way to the edge. It's quite a lot of metal to remove- a long sandpaper run is ideal. My surface plate is 4" x 18" which is perfect for this kind of work. Also, change the paper frequently, it cuts fastest when brand new and then the cutting rate slows down considerably after a few minutes of heavy use.

Now sharpen a secondary bevel at 30-35 degrees. The secondary bevel should be very small at this point, and should sharpen up very quickly. After a few sharpenings, the secondary bevel will grow wider, sharpening will be slower. Then can go back to the sandpaper lap and "grind" at 20 degrees again until the secondary bevel almost disappears. It should go much faster than it took to establish the initial primary bevel.

[Tom M King]

I used a grinder when first shaping plane irons, but none of my irons have touched a grinder in years. I'm usually working in old, museum houses, and don't want to deal with the mess of a grinder in those, so my system is not the typical one. It can be done though, without taking much time. Some of my planes get used all day long, some days.

My coarsest stone is a 300. If that won't do it quickly, it does go to a grinder, but they don't get kept in the houses, so rarely get used. The vast majority of the time, 6,000 is my starting stone.

[bill epstein]

I

I do not have a bench grinder, and given my limited space, I would really prefer to not have to use one.

Apologies if this should be obvious. Sometimes there is too much information on the internet.

I can relate to that, my "shop" is the spare bedroom.

Just this morning I returned a 2 3/8" blade from the 30* bevel I had on it to the original 25*. 4 sessions with 60 grit paper on a piece of Float Glass. Took about an hour. What I do is hold the paper on the glass with a pair of spring clamps that I position so the clamps hang off the front of the bench and that keeps the glass and paper from moving on the push stroke. Some masking tape holds the front edge of the paper on the pull. I use a Veritas guide.

After the bevel was established with the 60 grit, I went to 100, then 220, then a 600 water stone, and finally just a polish on an 8000. Last, a few passes with the +1* knob on the 8000 to make a micro bevel and only then a few passes on the 8000 with the flat side down. Excellent sharpness is the result.

Keep in mind the aim isn't to cut hair, it's to plane wood. Very careful attention to reseating the chip breaker and the assembly in the plane is at least as important as the grinding and honing.

With practice, no matter which of the methods you read here, your sharpening and adjustments will get better, but the basics should result in a satisfactory beginning.

[Jerome Andrieux]

Can a plane blade be properly sharpened without using a grinder?

Sure. I would recommend you buy some decent stones on the fine side and some coarse sand paper.

First, you establish a ~25 degrees bevel on the coarse medium. This takes time and effort.

Then, you sharpen / hone / polish at ~30 degrees with your fine stones. This is fast, light and easy.
Increasing the angle means that you don't need to hone a lot of material, just the tip.
Also polish the back of the blade, or use the similar technique called the "ruler trick" if the back isn't perfectly flat.

You will ultimately need to reset the 25° bevel, but you may have gained a solid sharpening technique by this time :)

[Tom Mayock]

Thanks for all of the input. I am starting to see why I confused originally.

I do now have a strop. It sounds like to round out my sharpening station in a corner I will buy some float glass and coarse grit sand paper. I am looking forward to figuring this out and tuning up a #4 Stanley that has seen better days. I managed to get the plane cutting with my previous setup, but the post-planing surface still required a lot of sanding to make things presentable even to my untrained eye.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for all of the input. I am starting to see why I confused originally.

I do now have a strop. It sounds like to round out my sharpening station in a corner I will buy some float glass and coarse grit sand paper. I am looking forward to figuring this out and tuning up a #4 Stanley that has seen better days. I managed to get the plane cutting with my previous setup, but the post-planing surface still required a lot of sanding to make things presentable even to my untrained eye.

Try to find sand paper with an adhesive back. Some folks use a spray adhesive others use water. This is often available in 3 or 4" wide rolls. Sand paper can have a tendency to bow or buckle when the blade is pushed on the paper. This can dull an edge more than sharpen it. PSA (Pressure Sensitive Adhesive) paper has less tendency to do this.

There are monument makers in just about every part of the country. They are the folks who make tombstones. They are one source for a good piece of granite to set up a production:

443568

This piece is 4' long. A magnet wrapped in paper is used to remove the swarf every few passes. This is a more of a luxury, not a necessity. It was only $25. At the time my accumulation of tools to rehab was going full bore.

Remember, the coarser the abrasive the more work to get rid of the deep scratches. Unless a blade is really bad a 200 or 300 grit abrasive works fast enough at removing metal. On my set up it can get the blade warm by hand. It also removes deep nicks, skews or sloppy bevels fairly quick. This is where a blade holder can be very handy. It lets one establish a bevel without much work other than going back and forth.

A shop making stone countertops may also have small useable off cuts.

Often big box stores will have returned granite tiles or a sale and a good flat 16X16" piece can be bought for $1.

Float glass is also a good choice.

When your plane leaves a surface sand paper can only scuff or make dull, you know you are on the right path.

jtk

[Eric Rathhaus]

If you're thinking of sandpaper on glass, a glazer told me all glass is now float glass. If you specifically look for glass for sharpening, you'll probably pay more than necessary. I read on another forum that a good way to buy glass without overpaying is to tell them you need a certain size piece for a cabinet shelf. Although I have a grinder, I use sandpaper for every stage of sharpening. Most will tell you this method ends up being more expensive, which is true if you only buy a few stones and stick with those. However, it seems that most on this forum end up buying many different stones and diamond plates so that I think the cost savings is theoretical for most people. I'm not advocating this method as better but I'm providing a counter point to what you'll read and hear.

[mike stenson]

Just echoing what has been said really, but even if you end up using another method of sharpening down the road.. the supplies are still useful. I still use a granite surface plate for flattening the backs of irons and chisels, and I use 4" wide PSA backed sand paper for this (a heat gun and some goof off makes cleaning it easy). It'd work very well for grinding the primary bevel as needed (it's really not needed much for the most part, even though I like to have a hollow grind for freehand sharpening I will admit to that happily).

[Leo Butler]

Hi Tom. Something I've come to be careful about as a guy who did it wrong for a long time can be summed up as "the burr is the word" (with all due apologies to The Trashmen). No matter how good things look while sharpening, a consistent burr from side to side is key at each grit you're using. Once I finish with a particular grit, I carefully pull the burr off the flat side of the blade on my 5000 grit water stone then move to the next grit, then I finish on the 5000 stone and finally strop to create a microbevel. In the past I didn't pay close enough attention to the burr and my results were inconsistent, to say the least.

My first sharpening setup involved Norton waterstones - 220, 1000 and 5000 grit. I hated that 220 stone, as it went non-flat within a few strokes. The 1000 wasn't nearly as bad; the 5000 wears very slowly and I love it. For the coarse grinding I switched to a 300 grit diamond plate and it's much better, and I also use a granite stone with 180 sandpaper for more heavy duty material removal (divot/chip in a blade). Chips can/will happen even when you're being careful. Re-establishing a clean primary bevel is the thing that will be the most time-consuming with a manual setup. The rest of the sharpening process should be pretty quick (minutes).

At the risk of not knowing when to stop, I'll mention the "Ruler Trick (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nykVPKbUGTo)" by David Charlesworth that saves you a bunch of time flattening the back of your "bevel down" plane blades (but not to be used for chisels). I only recently learned about this after discovering this thing called "Youtube" and it's a big time saver.

- Leo

[Warren Mickley]

Thanks everyone so much everyone for the clarification. This really helps a lot.

It looks like the coarse stone in the set that I just ordered is 600 grit oil stone. Would you say this is coarse enough to handle grinding?

I use bench stones without a grinder the way I was trained in 1962. The set you ordered (soft, hard and black Arkansas stones) does not have a coarse stone. They are all polishing stones. The soft Arkansas stone is not a 600 grit stone; it is more like a 6000 or 10,000 grit stone. These stones are good at removing scratches, but not good at removing the amount of material to remove the wear on a dull tool.

You need a coarse stone, what was traditionally called a rub stone. The good news is these stones are relatively cheap. I would recommend something around 8X2X1.

Here are some possibilities:
Silicon carbide ( crystolon, carborundum) combination coarse medium
King 800 stone
Norton medium or coarse India or combination.

I would avoid harsh stones like diamond or Shapton because they make deep scratches which would be difficult to remove with your soft Arkansas.

[Tom Mayock]

So until now I only had the combination stone that is linked below. At least as per Amazon, the coarse side is 150 and the fine side is 240. Should I continue to use this for the coarse work, or is this a piece of garbage?


https://www.amazon.com/Bora-501057-Combination-Sharpening-Aluminum/dp/B003Y3BMAW

[Jim Koepke]

So until now I only had the combination stone that is linked below. At least as per Amazon, the coarse side is 150 and the fine side is 240. Should I continue to use this for the coarse work, or is this a piece of garbage?


https://www.amazon.com/Bora-501057-Combination-Sharpening-Aluminum/dp/B003Y3BMAW

If it does what you want it to do it is not garbage.


These stones are good at removing scratches, but not good at removing the amount of material to remove the wear on a dull tool.

This is an important point for people buying a lot of used tools.

Otherwise there is good reason for not letting a tool get so dull as to need so much work restoring its edge. A few quick trips to the stones during the day saves a lot of time over one long session on the stones.

jtk

[Tom Mayock]

I agree completely on the garbage comment. Unfortunately at this point I am so inexperienced with sharpening that I am not completely sure what that stone should be doing. Until I really started reading up on sharpening, I thought that stone was all that I needed to get a nice cut with a hand plane, and the results were very disappointing.

[Rafael Herrera]

I agree completely on the garbage comment. Unfortunately at this point I am so inexperienced with sharpening that I am not completely sure what that stone should be doing. Until I really started reading up on sharpening, I thought that stone was all that I needed to get a nice cut with a hand plane, and the results were very disappointing.

Sharpening is a pretty dense subject.

Aluminum oxide is also sold under the trade name India by Norton. It comes in coarse, medium and fine, don't bother to assign them a grit number.

Your particular stone I would say is ok for sharpening axes, knives, and other non-fine cutting tools. The only way you'll know if it works for you, on these tools, is to try it.

It's also ok for re-profiling or repairing chisels and plane irons. It can get the tool ready for the next stages where you can use finer media.

Do you have some old tools you can practice with? work them with your AO stone and see the results.

[Charles Guest]

I am trying to pick up some hand tool skills, and I understand that sharpening correctly is very important for getting the best performance out of the tools. I have been reading -- arguably too much -- about how to sharpen plane blades, and I am now totally confused about the grinding part of the sharpening process. Some discussions of sharpening start with someone taking the iron to a grinding wheel, while other discussions start the process with oil or water stones. Can a plane blade be properly sharpened without using a grinder?

If a grinder is required, how often do you need to regrind the primary bevel?

I have a Stanley 5 that I purchased off of Craigslist that I am trying to learn on. I do not have a bench grinder, and given my limited space, I would really prefer to not have to use one. So far I have been trying to get by using a cheapo two sided sharpening stone from Amazon. Results have been meh. I just ordered this set of oil stones (https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/product_details.php?category_name=Arkansas%20Sharp ening%20Stones&product_id=77) and got a strop. I have also been using a honing guide.


Apologies if this should be obvious. Sometimes there is too much information on the internet.

Read this, it'll keep you grounded:

http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/Articles/lesson-in-sharpen/lesson-in-sharpening.html

[ken hatch]

I use bench stones without a grinder the way I was trained in 1962. The set you ordered (soft, hard and black Arkansas stones) does not have a coarse stone. They are all polishing stones. The soft Arkansas stone is not a 600 grit stone; it is more like a 6000 or 10,000 grit stone. These stones are good at removing scratches, but not good at removing the amount of material to remove the wear on a dull tool.

You need a coarse stone, what was traditionally called a rub stone. The good news is these stones are relatively cheap. I would recommend something around 8X2X1.

Here are some possibilities:
Silicon carbide ( crystolon, carborundum) combination coarse medium
King 800 stone
Norton medium or coarse India or combination.

I would avoid harsh stones like diamond or Shapton because they make deep scratches which would be difficult to remove with your soft Arkansas.



This is something I've posted about many times, While I think diamond stones can be used for grinding, neither diamond or Shapton are good for honing or polishing. The scratch pattern is too deep and sharp sided from either type stone. The Shapton because of the scratch pattern will give an impressive shine but a poor cutting edge. Diamonds are not good for honing or polishing because of the type scratches left.

ken

[Jim Matthews]

I use an Atoma 400 for coarse grinding, and cleaning up the surface of my oil stones. I use WD40, because it's easy to wipe up and I like the smell.

It's not an ideal lubricant, but I use it for basic lubrication, removing rust and labels, too.

Most times my Norton coarse "India" stone will reshape any edge and raise a quickly raise a burr.

It's rare I have a blade so badly damaged, or out of square that power is required.

For that I use a 3M fine deburring wheel.

[mike stenson]

I use WD40, because it's easy to wipe up and I like the smell.
.

Really as valid a reason as any other I've heard. Actually, probably more so.

[Tim Best]

Read this, it'll keep you grounded:

http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/Articles/lesson-in-sharpen/lesson-in-sharpening.html

That’s a great article, especially for those of us that have taken up the dark art of sharpening...err wood working, more recently than others.

Theoretically, sharpening is not that difficult. In reality, as I think the author getting was getting at flippantly, it is more difficult, but can be learned. (Perhaps more quickly with a cigarette smoking Scottish cabinet maker standing over one’s shoulder?)

Most days I can attain a sharp enough edge to do what I want the plane or chisel to do. Is it hair shaving sharp? Some days, yes. Some days, no, but it will do the work. Would I like to get my hands on one of Derek, Warren, Tom, or David W’s plane irons to see if my “sharp” is actually sharp. Yes, yes I would!

Long winded response to OP, keep at it, follow the sage advice you have already received on this thread and you will get there.

Also, take it from me, even in a small workspace, planes, chisels, and saws tend to multiply.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I am trying to pick up some hand tool skills, and I understand that sharpening correctly is very important for getting the best performance out of the tools. I have been reading -- arguably too much -- about how to sharpen plane blades, and I am now totally confused about the grinding part of the sharpening process. Some discussions of sharpening start with someone taking the iron to a grinding wheel, while other discussions start the process with oil or water stones. Can a plane blade be properly sharpened without using a grinder?

If a grinder is required, how often do you need to regrind the primary bevel?

I have a Stanley 5 that I purchased off of Craigslist that I am trying to learn on. I do not have a bench grinder, and given my limited space, I would really prefer to not have to use one. So far I have been trying to get by using a cheapo two sided sharpening stone from Amazon. Results have been meh. I just ordered this set of oil stones (https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/product_details.php?category_name=Arkansas%20Sharp ening%20Stones&product_id=77) and got a strop. I have also been using a honing guide.


Apologies if this should be obvious. Sometimes there is too much information on the internet.

Given that you are just starting out, if you feel like you are getting into a pickle, drop me a line and I will happily put an edge (a straight edge, not cambered, that is a bit outside my comfort zone) and I will put a hollow grind on the blade. From there, it is pretty easy to freehand sharpen the blade.

I will then send the blade back to you at my expense (a little postage won't break me).

The disadvantage is that I will use a Tormek and that will leave a hollow grind on the blade and some people prefer that and some people do not.

For me:

Step 1: Flatten the back. I usually use sandpaper because that seems to be the fastest way to do it. After it is flat, then I can move up the grits to something finer. This makes a huge difference and it might fix your "meh" edge.

Step 2: Throw it on the Tormek and put a hollow grind on it. If you send it to me you need to specify the angle you want.

Step all: Take a peek at the edge with a magnifying glass, it can be enlightening.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

One final thought. Given that you have ordered the "Best" stones, which are Arkansas stones, be sure to "chase" the wire edge. It makes a big difference with Arkansas stones. These stones are much slower than my water stones and my diamond stones. I am working on a small knife blade and I decided to try to do it using Arkansas stones and it is taking a long time. I am using a magnifying to take a close look at the edge so that I can watch the progression.

I think that I prefer Dan's Arkansas stones, but I am not sufficiently good with Arkansas stones to say anything categorical. I have sets from Best and also from Dan's. I assume that you also have oil to use on the Arkansas stones.

By the way, "chasing" the edge means that you get progressively lighter as you do something to one side then the other to work off the wire edge. It is easier to keep it sharp than to get it sharp.