Carcass saw

[Jason Buresh]

So i have been considering getting the veritas rip carcass saw because of a youtube video i watched where someone demonstrates how it can cut tenons and dovetails. I have been getting tired of the little dozuki I have been using. The veritas is also a pretty affordable saw.

Someone recently brought up bad axe tool works and i found they are based here in my home state of WI! They make good looking saws. But they are also higher priced than the veritas and even the lie nielsen.

While that makes me sound like a cheapskate, is there anything about these saws that makes them so expensive? After some research it looks like they are hand made. I know skilled labor isn't cheap, so i assume that has a lot to do with it too.

I want to buy local, and I want to buy quality, but I also look for value. I have heard wonderful things about both the veritas and the lie nielsen's, and i could buy both a veritas carcass saw and a lie nielsen dovetail saw for the price of a bad axe tenon saw.

I realize making my own saw is an option too, but i have a few projects i need to get done and would rather just buy one and get to work.

Anyone have any opinions on the bad axe saws? Am i better of buying a Veritas carcass for now and adding a lie nielsen down the road?

[Frederick Skelly]

The Bad Axe and the Bontz have wonderful reputations. (One day I'll own a Bontz.) You certainly can't go wrong with either of them - or several other boutique saws. I think they cost more money because they are essentially custom made and are therefore more finely tuned.

I bought two of the Veritas (rip and crosscut). They are good quality and great value. I bought an LN dovetail saw a year ago - it's the one I reach for.

[ken hatch]

Jason,

With boutique saws you are paying for the "Bling" (full disclosure; I love saw bling), maybe a custom or at least semi custom tote and a well sharpened saw. Once you have used the saw for a very short time it will need sharpening. At that point the only difference between a boutique saw and say a Veritas is the bling and maybe a better fitting tote. While I love my Bad Axe saws, I love the Bling but my hands are so average the tote makes no never mind, the truth is my Veritas saws work just as well after a couple of times sharpening each. Still I love looking at and holding the Bad Axe saws and would expect the same from a Bontz saw.

ken

[Jason Buresh]

I never realized there was a category of boutique saws. I guess in my inexperience I always thought of Lie Nielsen and Veritas as top of the line.

Frederick and Ken,

Thank you for the replies. At this point in my life i am more worried about functionality than glam, and being i dont have much experience sharpening, the more affordable Veritas may be a good set of training wheels.

Is a rip carcass a good choice for a joinery saw? The video i saw showed it capable of both dovetails and tenons, and while it may not be optimized for either task it seemed like a good all around saw.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I can attest to the fact that the Ron Bontz and the Bad Axe saws are really nice, especially in how they look. My Bad Axe saw is probably my easiest starting saw so I need to be careful when I jump from it to a more aggressive saw; because the more aggressive saw is more likely to catch and jump out of the cut if I am not used to it.

That said, I really like the Lee Valley dovetail saw. When my Bad Axe saw was no longer sharp, I sent it back for sharpening. When my Lee valley saw was dull, I was not as worried about take a shot at a less expensive saw and it resharpened just fine; even though a professional sharpener would probably scoff at it.

Nothing wrong with the Lee Valley saw, it is simply not as pretty; and you probably cannot get a handle sized to your hand.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Well if you want to “buy one and get to work”, forget about Bad Axe. I have 2 (sash and tenon) that I bought years ago and waited about 5-6 weeks for them to be delivered. I’ve heard the wait time is even longer now, what with COVID and the recent passing of Mark’s wife. Sometimes they have a few saws available immediately, but that’s hit or miss depending on your needs. As Ken noted they’re very nice saws but I have a few old Disstons (carcass and sash) that cut just as well.

[Ben Ellenberger]

I started off using the two Veritas carcass saws, rip and crosscut. I eventually got a Veritas 14 tpi dovetail saw. The rip carcass saw does work for dovetailing, but it is a little rough to use once the stock gets down around 1/2” thick. If I was going to do it again I’d just get the crosscut carcass saw and the dovetail saw, then get a bigger tenon saw. I’m happy with the quality of all of them.

i do use the rip carcass saw for cutting tenons, and it works well on small pieces. It doesn’t have enough depth of cut to do tenons for bigger stuff.

[Jason Buresh]

Stephen,

Yes i failed to take that into account. You are right that they have a 10-12 week lead right now.

Andrew,

It sounds like a lie nielsen or veritas may be a better choice for my needs right now. While having a handle tailored to your hand would be nice, i dont feel im at the skill level that it would make a difference for me.

Maybe i will put in an order for the veritas and get back to work. I still have my little japanese saw while i wait for the veritas to ship.

[Jason Buresh]

Ben,

Good to know. I typically work with 3/4" stock. My little japanese saw was not that good with that. When i did a test piece in some 1/2" cedar with the Japanese saw it worked better.

Is the cross cut carcass a more useful saw?

[Nathan Johnson]

I really like my Lie Nielsen carcass saw.

[mike stenson]

I really like my Lie Nielsen carcass saw.

I do too, but mine's the old one.. and every saw is unobtanium @ LNs website.

Ya notice that pretty much every recreational type item has become almost impossible to purchase?

[Rafael Herrera]

There are even fancier saws across the pond.

https://www.skeltonsaws.co.uk/

[mike stenson]

There are even fancier saws across the pond.

https://www.skeltonsaws.co.uk/

Gorgeous, but I'm not sure I can justify 500 quid currently.. maybe after I take over the world.. ;)

[Jason Buresh]

What makes these saws fancier? I realize this may be a stupid question, but i cant see any real difference between those or a florip or a bad axe. Is it the materials? They all appear to have the same style handle and fittings and things. I guess im still a peasant.

[Richard Verwoest]

Whatever saw you get, use it. And if there is a spot or 2 on the handle that is uncomfortable, fix it. It's your saw.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Stephen,

Yes i failed to take that into account. You are right that they have a 10-12 week lead right now.

Andrew,

It sounds like a lie nielsen or veritas may be a better choice for my needs right now. While having a handle tailored to your hand would be nice, i dont feel im at the skill level that it would make a difference for me.

Maybe i will put in an order for the veritas and get back to work. I still have my little japanese saw while i wait for the veritas to ship.

They have them at my local Woodcraft so you could pop on over if you have one near you and take it home. The biggest problem with ordering one is that it is almost impossible to resist other goodies when you order it :D

I think that the Veritas dovetail saw is great, I have cut a lot of dovetails with it.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Yes, I use the cross-cut for tenon shoulders, for cutting small pieces to length, basically any joinery that requires a cross cut. I’ve noticed lots of people recommend a dovetail saw filed rip, a carcass saw filed cross-cut, and a larger tenon saw filed rip as the three joinery saws to have. As I’ve made more things that recommendation makes more and more sense to me.

I’ve also noticed that those are the only 3 joinery saws that Lie-Nielsen make, so they must think that is a pretty complete set.

[Jim Matthews]

While that makes me sound like a cheapskate, is there anything about these saws that makes them so expensive? After some research it looks like they are hand made. I know skilled labor isn't cheap, so i assume that has a lot to do with it too.

I want to buy local, and I want to buy quality, but I also look for value.
Anyone have any opinions on the bad axe saws? Am i better of buying a Veritas carcass for now and adding a lie nielsen down the road?

This concern is legitimate. What you're doing, when you buy from smaller makers is keeping the craft alive. While you can rehab older saws to working, usable shape - it's a surprisingly difficult thing to get precisely right.

Bad Axe, Wentzloff on Bontz have already worked out those kinks.

If you're looking for a well made alternative to these in traditional materials Gramercy tools and Florip tool works make fine saws, for a price below Bad Axe.

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-CSAW12.XX

http://floriptoolworks.com/ready-saws

Full disclosure, I own several Bad Axe and Bontz saws.
After learning how to use a pull saw, my "go-to" rip saw is a large, cheapo Ryoba.

I have a smaller pull saw that handles dovetails, tenons and crosscuts.

[steven c newman]

Or, get one you can adjust...
Rip..
443130
Or, just flip the plate over..
443131
Either a 9ppi, or the 15ppi....bar can serve as a depth stop.

Bishop No. 10. I hear that Disston also made one...:D

[Curt Putnam]

I have the full complement of Veritas saws and a dovetail saw by Isaac Smith (Blackburn Tools) and a bunch of dozukis and a couple of ryobas. From all of this I have learned that each saw is an individual tt some extent. Pick one and get to know it. After about the 1st 20 - 50 cuts, they all cut the same. They all use the same steel so it is all in the filing. My hands are apparently oversized and I've learned the value of a tote that matches the hand. There is value in bling because Mark gets his price for it. Note also that Veritas does not offer a sharpening service - whereas the boutique makers do.

[mike stenson]

All this thread made me do is order a plate, back and nuts.

Sometimes I hate these threads, but it's so much fun to make tools.

[Ron Bontz]

If your hand is of average size and you are concerned about cost, the Nielsen is a good choice and maintains it value well, if taken care of. The newer style handles look to be more comfortable than the original, to my eye, but I have not tried one for a while. You may wish to take a look at Florip Tool Works, as well. Being CNCd to some extent, the Nielsen, Bad Axe, Veritas, and Florip Tool works, are production saws, hence if you drop / break the tote it may be a lot easier to replace the handle. Veritas is obviously the best bang for the buck. If you have a larger hand or just want something a little different etc., then the more customizable, more expensive, saws may be a better choice.
Good luck with your search.
Best wishes,
Ron

[Jason Buresh]

Jim,

Thanks for the response. I also have a ryoba and enjoy it for some crosscuts and rip cut. But i find i am more accurate with a western saw on wider boards. I also have a 6" dozuki that i have been using for dovetails, but i am not a fan. Its just not a good saw for that task.

Ron, thank you for the advice. I would say i have an average size hand, so maybe a stock saw will do just fine

I appreciate everyone's responses, and here is my thoughts on the information i gathered. This may be long winded.

I watched a video by rex krueger where he tested affordable joinery saws. He did a demonstration where he showed the veritas rip carcass is capable of dovetails and small tenons. I have a little 6" dozuki which is capable os smaller crosscuts but sucks at rip cuts such as dovetails or tenons.

I then recently visited bad axe tool works and found they make saws in my home state. Though more expensive, I thought it may be good to support local. I was wondering if there were special features or materials that set these saws away from thw pack. It sounds like these saws are manufactured with high quality materials and can be custom fit to your hand.

After reading everyone's responses, i have determined the bad axe may not be my best choice at this time. I am in my late 20's and neither my dad or my grandfather work with hand saws or hand tools in general. I have been relying on books, youtube, and this wonderful forum as a source of learning. What i am getting at is I still have learning to do as far as sharpening and cutting goes, and me buying a boutique saw would be the equivalent of giving a 16 year old a Ferrari for their first car. I am looking for the toyota camry of handsaws. I need something reliable, economical, and functional. I feel like with my current skill set that I do not have the skill to appreciate such a fine tool, and it will work great until it gets dull and i need to sharpen it. I realize i can send a saw out to get sharpened, but its a skill i want to learn. And although in theory its not a super complicated task, i would rather make a mistake on a $80 saw than a $300 saw.

So i think i am going to go with the Veritas, as Lee Valley has them in stock. I will sometime in the future order a high end saw, but i dont think now is the right time. I understand the theory that you should always buy the best you can afford, but I just dont think it makes sense to self teach yourself how to sharpen on the Ferrari of hand saws.

Maybe my logic is flawed?

P. S. Ron I visited your website and you have some exceptional saws to offer. I like that you offer closed handles, as far as looks go that is my preference. I will proudly be purchasing one of your saws in the future

[Jim Koepke]

At this point in my life i am more worried about functionality than glam, and being i dont have much experience sharpening, the more affordable Veritas may be a good set of training wheels.

My training wheels came on the many inexpensive saws found at yard sales and other sources of lower pricing.


So i think i am going to go with the Veritas, as Lee Valley has them in stock. I will sometime in the future order a high end saw, but i dont think now is the right time. I understand the theory that you should always buy the best you can afford, but I just dont think it makes sense to self teach yourself how to sharpen on the Ferrari of hand saws.

This is a well reasoned approach. After all if you ever do want an upgrade if the Veritas saw hasn't been abused it can likely be sold with little loss of value.


While that makes me sound like a cheapskate, is there anything about these saws that makes them so expensive? After some research it looks like they are hand made. I know skilled labor isn't cheap, so i assume that has a lot to do with it too.

The big makers are making many more saws at one time. Much of the work may even be contracted out to individual vendors. The person who cuts the teeth on an automatic machine may not be in the same building as the person who files the teeth on another machine.

The smaller makers likely have more workers doing more than one step of the process. The smaller makers do not have thousands of other products to support a workforce.


P. S. Ron I visited your website and you have some exceptional saws to offer. I like that you offer closed handles, as far as looks go that is my preference. I will proudly be purchasing one of your saws in the future

My dovetail saw from Ron is one of my most prized possessions.

443157

This was a kit with all but the handle.

jtk

[mike stenson]

Like Jim, all of the saws I used when I was figuring out how to sharpen came cheap. As cheap as I could find them cheap. Side effect was learning how to fix handles. Those left me feeling 'comfortable enough', that I'll try making one from scratch soon.

[Jason Buresh]

Jim and Mike,

I assume you are referring to cleaning up panel saws? At least in my area coming across vintage joinery saws is very rare. I suppose the closest thing to a joinery saw i could practice on is to buy a cheap old miter box with a back saw.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of my first dovetails were cut with a back saw from a small miter box.

One of my current dovetail saws was found in an antique mall.

A lot of antique malls and junk shops have an amazing amount of inventory turnover. That is how they stay in business. Get to know the people at the counter.

Second hand stores and even pawn brokers get some decent stuff at times.

Get to know them and let them know what you are interested in buying. Visit them when you can so they get used to you coming back. You might get to be friends with some of them and be on the hunt for you.

jtk

[mike stenson]

There really isn't a significant difference between a panel and back saw IMO from a shaping, setting, and sharpening point of view (the kinds of things you're going to do as general maintenance most likely). Just size... and to be honest, it's easier to learn (I think) on the bigger teeth.

[Jim Koepke]

Just size... and to be honest, it's easier to learn (I think) on the bigger teeth.

If nothing else the bigger teeth make it easier to see your mistakes.

jtk

[Erich Weidner]

I am looking for the toyota camry of handsaws. I need something reliable, economical, and functional. I feel like with my current skill set that I do not have the skill to appreciate such a fine tool, and it will work great until it gets dull and i need to sharpen it. I realize i can send a saw out to get sharpened, but its a skill i want to learn. And although in theory its not a super complicated task, i would rather make a mistake on a $80 saw than a $300 saw.

So i think i am going to go with the Veritas, as Lee Valley has them in stock. I will sometime in the future order a high end saw, but i dont think now is the right time. I understand the theory that you should always buy the best you can afford, but I just dont think it makes sense to self teach yourself how to sharpen on the Ferrari of hand saws.

Maybe my logic is flawed?


I wouldn't say flawed logic. :) And I don't think anyone will characterize the Vertias line as a Toyota Camry of hand saws (Well, I wouldn't). I also think buying the best you can afford is almost always the best choice. But sometimes you don't know what you want yet, (or even if you are going to love hand sawing) so going too crazy on the first purchase might lead to buyers remorse, or something you need to sell to recoup some of the cost by reselling.

That being said, nothing wrong with going for the Bontz or Bad Axe if it is in budget and you *know* you are going to love hand sawing. I started out with Japanese saws, and just never really got to like them much. Got a Lie-Nielson dovetail saw then wanted a full set of backsaws. I went whole hog on the Bad Axe trio and boy do I like them. No regrets. (The waiting is the hardest part).

FWIW, one thing to consider is that you won't need to sharpen that new well sharpened saw for a while (year or two, maybe more). So you are learning what a good well made saw cuts like and it isn't like you won't have time to acquire some garage sale saws and learn to sharpen on them in the mean time.

PS. Though the Bad Axe dovetail saw I like appreciably better than my LN, it isn't the difference between a Camry and a Ferrari. (Well, I imagine it isn't... I've never driven either of them) I'm just saying they aren't night and day different.
I've not used the Veritas saws, but I own many of their other tools and are all great.

[Michael J Evans]

As someone who has wayyy less expierience than probably everyone, I can't make any recommendations on bad ax vs veritas or whatever. I have a veritas carcass and it is a smooth cutting saw. I also have old disstons I've sharpened, which cut more aggressively. The thing I really want to ask and think about, is all these handsaws are really old technology, has there really been any mass improvements of any of them? I would highly doubt it, they are pretty simple tools. I feel like in most hobbies there are the value lines and the high end stuff. Most likely your paying 80% more for a 2% difference in actual performance. Like others stated with the "boutique" tools your likely paying for the name,cool woods, brass handles fit and finish. Some probably file more or less aggressively, make them weigh more, etc. But in terms of actual cutting performance they are really probably the same. I am not trying to take anything away from the makers, they make beautiful saws and yes I would like to have one, for aesthetic reasons, but I truly don't believe that they would offer a massive performance improvement over a veritas or a well sharpened disstons. Hopefully someone doesn't come along and tell me I'm a idiot. It just all seems like really old and simple technology. Buy what makes you happy.

[Dennis Droege]

Keep an eye on (shudder) Ebay: at the time of this posting, there were two listed, a 12" saw and a 16" saw. I think the 16 is still up. They were offered for significantly less than new.

[Jim Koepke]

As someone who has wayyy less expierience than probably everyone, I can't make any recommendations on bad ax vs veritas or whatever. I have a veritas carcass and it is a smooth cutting saw. I also have old disstons I've sharpened, which cut more aggressively. The thing I really want to ask and think about, is all these handsaws are really old technology, has there really been any mass improvements of any of them? I would highly doubt it, they are pretty simple tools. I feel like in most hobbies there are the value lines and the high end stuff. Most likely your paying 80% more for a 2% difference in actual performance. Like others stated with the "boutique" tools your likely paying for the name,cool woods, brass handles fit and finish. Some probably file more or less aggressively, make them weigh more, etc. But in terms of actual cutting performance they are really probably the same. I am not trying to take anything away from the makers, they make beautiful saws and yes I would like to have one, for aesthetic reasons, but I truly don't believe that they would offer a massive performance improvement over a veritas or a well sharpened disstons. Hopefully someone doesn't come along and tell me I'm a idiot. It just all seems like really old and simple technology. Buy what makes you happy.

Michael, this is an astute observation. It was proven to me by a visit to a Lie-Nielsen Tool Event in Seattle, WA. One of the 'boutique' saw makers let me make some cuts with their saw. There was no discernible difference in the cut or the feedback than from one of my own rehabilitated saws.

The appearance was the main difference. My old saw was a bit beat up and had pits on the blade. The blade was also very brittle from age. Eventually the plate was changed out for a new one it is still a fine saw.

Another difference is with my old saws the totes are mostly mass produced by routers and other machines. To some extent my guess is the modern boutique makers also use some machines to lower the cost of time spent producing a saw. One of my dovetail saws has a handle made in my shop to fit my hand from wood of my choice.

For a modern saw the Veritas saws offer a quality saw at an affordable price point. They are not as bling oriented as many of the other saws offered at higher prices.

For many it is like the pride of owning a classic automobile. It is a joy simply being able to use it as opposed to just getting the job done.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I saw a very recent review where they had a couple of Lie Nielsen saws and a couple of veritas saws. I noted that the saw plate was thinner on the Lie Nielsen and they thought it had a better sharpening so it cut better. I never purposely compared the two, but I had no problems with either.

[Jason Lester]

I ordered the Veritas Carcass this week and got it today. The handle feels great and it cuts straight, fast, and clean. The only saw I need to finish filling my chest is a tenon saw. I'm probably going to order theirs when I'm ready.

[Michael J Evans]

The only unfortunate thing about the veritas saw I have is it spoiled me. What I mean by that is the veritas saw was the first "new" hand tool I had bought (besides some chisels) and it didn't need any fettling to work. It was really nice not to have to joint, sharpen, re joint because I messed up and re sharpen.

[Michael J Evans]

.

For many it is like the pride of owning a classic automobile. It is a joy simply being able to use it as opposed to just getting the job done.

jtk

I agree. For me it is more about the journey / process. When I hunted it was first with a compound bow, then I moved to longbow. First fishing, now fly fishing.