Jump from a 9" to a 12" dovetail saw??

[Clifford McGuire]

I've been using a 9" Independence Tool DT saw for many years. I'm starting to think about getting something else. I was looking at the Bad Axe site and, according to their site, the 12" "will be the last saw I'll ever own".

That seems like quite a jump. What can I expect?

(I mostly make boxes and some drawers. 1/2" to 3/4" thick and mostly hardwoods. But sometimes I practice on softwoods (poplar).)

[Mike Henderson]

Why are you thinking of getting another dovetail saw? A 9" saw for the kind of wood we generally work with (3/4" or so) should be very adequate.

Mike

[If your saw is not working well, perhaps it needs to be sharpened.]

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The independence saw is (I understand, but have not ever used one) a nice saw. It is roughly 9" long (for the blade). I was under the impression that this was a nice saw, but I have never used one.



I have a 9" Lie Nielsen saw
I have a 9.25" Lee Valley saw
I have a 10" Bad Axe dovetail saw and I used it for years. Love it. (Doc Holliday)


Are you noticing a pattern? Most dovetails saws seem to be around that size. All of these saws have a roughly 2" depth to the blade.


I am a bit surprised that the "standard" dovetail saw at Bad Axe is now listed as the 12" saw. I ordered a 12" Bad Axe dovetail saw some years back (Wyatt Earp), but the Wyatt Earp has a deeper depth of cut than the 12" Stiletto (which is about 2"). Off hand, I would probably use the Stiletto more than the Wyatt Earp because I have never cut a dovetail deeper than my other saws can cut. I have made other cuts deeper than that, but that is the exception for what I do, not the norm.

I find the larger Wyatt Earp to be a bit heavier than what I want for regular dovetails, but the Stiletto with the smaller plate should not have that problem. I would be surprised if you did not love it. If you are mostly cutting dovetails in 1/2" stock, you probably do not need the extra length, however. The length does you no good if you do not use it. If you do use it, however, you can go longer without sharpening and this will allow you to cut thicker stock , even when it is ganged together so you are cutting two boards at once.

[ken hatch]

I've been using a 9" Independence Tool DT saw for many years. I'm starting to think about getting something else. I was looking at the Bad Axe site and, according to their site, the 12" "will be the last saw I'll ever own".

That seems like quite a jump. What can I expect?

(I mostly make boxes and some drawers. 1/2" to 3/4" thick and mostly hardwoods. But sometimes I practice on softwoods (poplar).)

Clifford,

I have one and it is a really nice saw. Is it worth the money, depends on how much you like your money and how much you like saw "bling". Truth is about half the time when cutting dove tails I'll use one of the LV dovetail saws, works just as well and a lot cheaper. But then I've never been able to feel the differences in most tools to write a review. The bottom line is, is the saw sharp, if it is just about any saw is good. If not, it ain't.

ken

[Clifford McGuire]

Why are you thinking of getting another dovetail saw? A 9" saw for the kind of wood we generally work with (3/4" or so) should be very adequate.


Mike,

No real reason. Just kicking the tires. I've had the IT saw since 1999 (it's a first run) and I've never used anything else. Used occasionally in the past, this year I've really gotten into hand cut DTs and plan on doing many more.

I'm wondering what I might be missing.

[Phil Gaudio]

i've used many different DT saws from 8" to 12" lengths. The 8" saws (Wenzloff and Adria) just seemed too short and limited the stroke length. Most of my saws are in the 9"-10" range, and I prefer the 10": again, it seems to be a good fit in terms of stroke length. I have the Stiletto and its very nice, but it does not fit in my DT saw cabinet, and to be honest, I just as soon use the 10" saws conveniently stored in the wall cabinet, and not bother opening a drawer to dig out the Stiletto. So right there, that tells you that there is a point of diminishing returns when it comes to DT saw length, and I believe it not far north of 10".

[justin sherriff]

Mike,

No real reason. Just kicking the tires. I've had the IT saw since 1999 (it's a first run) and I've never used anything else. Used occasionally in the past, this year I've really gotten into hand cut DTs and plan on doing many more.

I'm wondering what I might be missing.
If you have not get that thing sharpened it will be like a new saw.

[Mike Henderson]

Isn't the Independence Saw the same as the one Lie Nielsen sells now? That's a very nice saw. I know LN will sharpen their saws for $25 (you pay postage to them, they pay postage back to you) so maybe they'll sharpen the Independence saw.

I had them sharpen a progressive saw of theirs (which they don't sell any more) and it was just $25.

Mike

[Phil Gaudio]

Pete Taran made that saw and is a frequent poster here: I'll bet he would be happy to sharpen that for you.

[Clifford McGuire]

Pete Taran made that saw and is a frequent poster here: I'll bet he would be happy to sharpen that for you.

It still cuts well and I enjoy using it.

It's just after using it for 21 years, I'm thinking about trying something else. I was just curious about the difference between a 9" and 12".

[Phil Gaudio]

I think there is little downside to trying a longer saw (other than the $$ invested). Ideally you would be able to try a number of saws and choose the one that felt right. As I mentioned above, the sawing dynamics will feel different as you are able to take a longer cutting stroke. You will also notice a change in the weight and balance of the saw: hard to say if that will be a plus or a minus, but it will probably be overshadowed by the aforementioned sawing dynamics. Only way to find out for sure is to jump in and try one out. There is a very healthy secondary market for high end WW tools so worst case scenario is you don't favor the saw and end up selling it. Good luck with your decision.


It still cuts well and I enjoy using it.

It's just after using it for 21 years, I'm thinking about trying something else. I was just curious about the difference between a 9" and 12".

[Jim Koepke]

I was just curious about the difference between a 9" and 12".

About 3". :D

Often in thin stock, one of my 9" (?) DT saws may only take one stroke to the base line. A 12" saw wouldn't be very advantageous.

jtk

[Ben Ellenberger]

I have the 11” Veritas 12 tpi rip saw. I’ve used it for dovetails in 3/4” material, and I used it for everything before I got an actual 14 tpi dovetail saw. I think it does cut a little faster than a smaller, higher tpi saw in thicker material. It is a little awkward to use in 1/2” or thinner material. I think the tooth count makes a bigger difference to me than the size of the saw.

I could see someone preferring one size or the other for purely personal reasons, and it seems like either would work fine as long as the tooth count is appropriate for the material you are cutting.

[Jim Matthews]

Not mentioned is a larger saw will have a different balance point and hang angle.

I tend to "steer" smaller saws where my larger saws track without much intervention.

I would suggest that a 14" backsaw may have broader utility than a 12" dedicated dovetail saw.

Full disclosure - after ten years cutting dovetails, mine still look like they were laid out by a three legged goat on a bender.

[Warren Mickley]

I have used an 8 inch dovetail saw for 40 years. The traditional standard is about nine inches. Nicholosn (1812) mentions 9 inches for a dovetail saw. The dovetail saw in the Seaton chest (1796) is also 9 inches. Bad Axe does not seem to offer a traditional saw. It is as if they think they know more than people who actually use saws.

The Bad Axe saw also has a handle that extends down below the tooth line. This also is never seen on traditional saws, which have the have the handles angled up well above the tooth line. One of the reasons for this is so that we can use the saw on a side hook (bench hook). We sometimes use dovetail saws for cutting small mouldings et cetera. It would not work with these poorly designed saws.

[steven c newman]

This is the one I used over the past weekend..
443065
It had been freshly sharpened about a month ago....Disston No. 68

I thought about giving the Bishop No. 10 a try..
443066
Just a bit too large....

[Jim Koepke]

If you are looking for a single stroke dovetail saw, especially helpful when gang cutting dovetails, check this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfoEZKobbls

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

I have the 11” Veritas 12 tpi rip saw. I’ve used it for dovetails in 3/4” material, and I used it for everything before I got an actual 14 tpi dovetail saw. I think it does cut a little faster than a smaller, higher tpi saw in thicker material. It is a little awkward to use in 1/2” or thinner material. I think the tooth count makes a bigger difference to me than the size of the saw.

I could see someone preferring one size or the other for purely personal reasons, and it seems like either would work fine as long as the tooth count is appropriate for the material you are cutting.

That's a very good point about the tooth count. I have a number of dovetail saws, both Lie Nielsen and Lee Valley. One of the Lee Valley saws is 20TPI. Next time I'm sawing really thin material, I'll use the 20 tooth and see is that works better - just based on the idea of keeping a certain number of teeth in the work.

Never thought about that before.

Mike

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Among the backsaws that I use for dovetails, I have an 8” Adria (15tpi) and a 12” Disston (13tpi), the latter I would classify as a carcass saw rather than dovetail. I inevitably reach for the Adria. I like the feel and it’s easier to control. It’s a little hard to start, (that’s probably the set more than anything), but once it gets going it cuts beautifully and laser straight. I have sash and tenon saws from Bad Axe and they’re great saws, but I’ve never been tempted to add their dovetail saw and would opt for their traditional 10” version rather than the long bayonet.

[Josh Robinson]

Not mentioned is a larger saw will have a different balance point and hang angle.

I tend to "steer" smaller saws where my larger saws track without much intervention.

I would suggest that a 14" backsaw may have broader utility than a 12" dedicated dovetail saw.

Full disclosure - after ten years cutting dovetails, mine still look like they were laid out by a three legged goat on a bender.

Three legged goat on a bender....😆

[Derek Cohen]

The choice is always going to be personal. My preference is a 9-10” long plate. I also prefer a slightly lower plate, around 2” deep. Smaller equals more control.

The largest dovetails are around 7/8” deep. My drawers range from. 3/4” front, of which 5/8” is sawn on the angle, and 1/4” sides, which are a soft wood. All these situations require a slightly different tooth count and angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ron Bontz]

Interesting thread. As you can see there are many opinions based on personal experience. I have , hiding in my dovetail drawer, a 6", 9", 10" and 12" dovetail saw. The 6" is 0.015" plate, as is one of my 10", and 12" plates. The tooth count varies from 15ppi to 20ppi, depending on the saw. SOOO for what it is worth; Just my personal opinion. The 12" version does indeed affect the balance of the saw. The heavier handles, stabilized maple burls, ebony, etc., seem too balance this out a bit. The longer stroke may or may not cut deeper per stroke depending on the filing and ppi. The 12" version may work a little better on gang ripping dovetail tails, etc., but beyond that I see no substantial advantage to the 12" over the 9" or 10". Just preference mainly. We could discuss the different saws for quite a while, but people have been cutting fine dovetails for hundreds of years with 6" to 9" dovetail saws with 0.020" to 0.025" plates. It is more about ppi, filing, preference and comfort. The latest is not always the greatest, but it never hurts to keep one's mind open and try something different. Hmmmm. I feel an article may some time be in order discussing the trends, pros and cons of this topic. :) Take care.

[Jim Koepke]

All these situations require a slightly different tooth count and angle.

Sounds like a good point to bring up with the missus when a new dovetail saw is desired.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Interesting thread. As you can see there are many opinions based on personal experience. I have , hiding in my dovetail drawer, a 6", 9", 10" and 12" dovetail saw. The 6" is 0.015" plate, as is one of my 10", and 12" plates. The tooth count varies from 15ppi to 20ppi, depending on the saw. SOOO for what it is worth; Just my personal opinion. The 12" version does indeed affect the balance of the saw. The heavier handles, stabilized maple burls, ebony, etc., seem too balance this out a bit. The longer stroke may or may not cut deeper per stroke depending on the filing and ppi. The 12" version may work a little better on gang ripping dovetail tails, etc., but beyond that I see no substantial advantage to the 12" over the 9" or 10". Just preference mainly. We could discuss the different saws for quite a while, but people have been cutting fine dovetails for hundreds of years with 6" to 9" dovetail saws with 0.020" to 0.025" plates. It is more about ppi, filing, preference and comfort. The latest is not always the greatest, but it never hurts to keep one's mind open and try something different. Hmmmm. I feel an article may some time be in order discussing the trends, pros and cons of this topic. :) Take care.


Ron,

Please do. Some clarity would be nice, and I know bottom line is what blows your skirt but it would be nice to understand the reasons for the wind.

ken

[Clifford McGuire]

The choice is always going to be personal. My preference is a 9-10” long plate. I also prefer a slightly lower plate, around 2” deep. Smaller equals more control.

The largest dovetails are around 7/8” deep. My drawers range from. 3/4” front, of which 5/8” is sawn on the angle, and 1/4” sides, which are a soft wood. All these situations require a slightly different tooth count and angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek


I'd love to learn more Derek. I do all my practicing on poplar. Most of my 'good enough to leave the shop' projects are maple and cherry. Thickness varies from 3/8" to 3/4"

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Clifford ... some thoughts ....

Let's take the average drawer I might build.

The drawer front will be around 20mm thick and a hardwood. Often Jarrah, which is short-grained and interlocked. The saw is expected to take about 4-5 short strokes at 45 degrees (half-blind). If the workpiece is especially brittle, it may be better using a higher tooth count, such as 20 tpi. If not brittle, just hard, the saw usually chosen is 15 tpi, and for an aggressive cut, a low rake angle (3-5 degrees). Someone starting out is likely to find my saws too aggressive, and would prefer a more relaxed rake, somewhere around 8-14 degrees.

The drawer sides are generally a softer wood, such as Tasmanian Oak (similar in characteristics to the average White Oak). These pieces are 6-8mm thick. Dovetail saws with a higher tooth count are again preferred, such as 19-20 tpi. Relax the rake increasingly as the wood becomes softer. Now if the Tasmanian Oak was 22mm thick, such as a case or carcase, I would choose a coarser set up, such as 12-15 tpi.

It's not terribly complicated: softer or thinner boards = more rake and/or more tpi; harder or thicker woods = less rake and/or less tpi;

Regards from Perth

Derek