Morning tails, lunch pins

[Tim Best]

Hi all,

In the spirit of Jason's recent Critique my dovetails (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?286094-Critique-my-dovetails-First-attempt-at-a-double) thread, I decided to throw my first hand cut dovetails out there. No jigs, no guides! Just a knife, a pencil, a square, a sliding bevel, a dovetail saw, a coping saw, and a couple of chisels. Over the last week, I have cut tails before I take my 24 step commute to my home "office" and tails during my lunch hour. (I like cutting the tails in the morning as it seems to put my head in a good space before the workday begins. I tried cutting a set of pins first dovetails one morning and that messed up my whole day :))

While these are not pretty, they are a very snug fit. I am not posting the entire week's worth DT's, but I see a little bit of improvement with everyone. Most importantly, I am getting more comfortable sawing to line with my dovetail saw--the coping saw I am using to clean out waste is another story. Anyway, in the spirit of displaying successes, failures, and/or combination of both here are my morning tails and lunch pins from today.

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[Ben Ellenberger]

Nice! I recommend making lots of little storage/organization trays and boxes for the shop. It is a great way to practice dovetails and end up with useful things.

[Tim Best]

Hi all,

Morning tails and lunch pins for today. The pics below are of the fifth set in 6 days If the collective will indulge, I have a couple of observations and questions. Sorry about the funky rotation. (It is the way I snapped the photo even though I saved it in another orientation.) I think I am approaching something resembling usable dovetails. I have been experimenting with different tail slopes and numbers of tails and pins. All are cut by hand without guides, jigs, etc. This morning I cut the tails at a random slope that turned out to be ~10*. During lunch, I cut the pins.

First observation: I think I prefer slopes at 14-16* (I work in degrees because rise over run makes my historian brain hurt.) Anything less than 14*, looks more like finger joints to me and not very aesthetically appealing. Also, I think I prefer larger tails. Wife's opinion: "I do not care...just build the damn quilt chest!"

Second observation: With every set I cut, the tails stick up too much (too proud?) at the top (I do not know another way to describe it.) I know some aim for tails that are a little long, but I am not aiming for any proudness. I use the thickness of the tail board to mark the pin board and vice versa. I milled these boards and all edges/faces were square before I started cutting. In these pics, the tails are not seating well. A previous set seated well but were still proud on top. Is this just a matter of inaccurate marking? Should I just drop the tail board baseline a little more when marking to correct this issue? It is obvious from the pictures, that taking a little more of the tail board baseline while cleaning the pins will not correct the problem. This seems to contribute to the appalling baseline gaps. Any thoughts/suggestions/tips/tricks to address this problem?

Third observation: The upside is that the joints are snug--maybe a little too snug. Is there a point where too snug becomes problematic? Too loose I get. I understand that once glued they may swell, but how snug/tight is too snug before glue? The joint in the pics took a couple of moderate mallet taps to get into place.

Last observation and question: I have now cut about 25 tails and pins over the last week and it was apparent tonight that my saw is in need of a sharpening. I have crudely sharpened a couple larger panel saws, but I have not attempted to sharpen something as small as my 12 tpi carcass saw. I'd rather not ruin a dulling saw by trying to sharpen it. Any tips other than use a good file and keep the file straight and level?

Thanks in advance.

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[David Eisenhauer]

Tim, a 12 pt dovetail saw (filed rip) should be able to be sharpened by even those of us that are amateurs (or not very experienced at any rate) at sharpening. Rip filing is 90* across the saw plate and 90* in the vertical plane to the saw plate. I paint Dychem (or a felt marker) on the teeth prior to sharpening so that I can keep track of where I am in the sharpening process. Even a sharpening job by those of us that are not as good as we perhaps can be one day results in a better cutting saw. I try to keep my file strokes evenly pressured and counted to be the same across each gullet I attack in an attempt to maintain some level of consistency in the entire saw plate. I try to go for a consistent stroke rather than a fast and furious bash across the gullet. Try it, you won't make it worse. I use the LV files that (I think?) come from Bahco or someone reputable like that. Question on your dovetails - Are you seeing that baseline gap on the inside of the drawer to match the gap on the outside? If not, are you ensuring that the baseline is chopped/pared flat (90*) across the baseline thickness when you work from both sides to pare down to the base line? The baseline paring can actually be undercut some when paring to the center of the material from both the top and bottom sides so that a proud center does not prevent the tails from fully seating. I use Derek Cohen's blue tape trick to make my side and baseline saw cuts to and it seems to be easier to saw closer to the line when making the pin saw cuts than following a gauge line. My eyes may be older than yours though. Make sure your tail cuts are 90* across the thickness of the tail material (or even slightly less than 90*) and not angled out slightly past 90* because that will result in side wall gaps. One thing that may cause proud tails is that the side and front/back material thickness is not quite same and your gauge is set for one of the thicknesses and does not match the other thickness. Closing up the gaps on the side saw cuts on the pin saw cuts can be done with experience, but the baseline gaps seem like something is not right with the material or layout.

[Jim Koepke]

Rip filing is 90* across the saw plate and 90* in the vertical plane to the saw plate.

That would be a rather aggressive saw, possibly difficult to get started for someone less experienced at sawing.

Go to > http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/library.html < Read the "Saw Filing--A Beginner's Primer" it has helped me by reading it many times, often just before working on a saw.

For me, a marking gauge or knife works better than a pencil for a base line. Often my gauge/knife line is followed by a very sharp pencil to make it easier to see. An important point here is to remember if marking the pins from the tail board or the tails from the pin board that the pencil line or knife line is in the area to be saved. Another way to see this is that the line is not in the area to be sawn. This was a difficult part for me when first starting on dovetails.

Base lines should be considered as inviolate or sacred when making dovetails.

One item that will be very helpful is a small square. My first one was shop made and used while making a box out of firewood. It was found to be so helpful it convinced me to purchase the > Lee Valley Small Double Square (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/72730-lee-valley-small-double-square?item=15N0501) < It has really helped my dovetail work. My shop made square was given to my grandson who is beginning to do a little woodworking of his own.

My shop made square was used here > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750 < in making a box of alder firewood. There are a lot of tips learned over the years of making dovetails.

When the joint is made too tight, wood tends to split putting them together. Expansion of a piece during glue up has not been a problem for me. My current project is in poplar. The dovetails dry fit rather tight. The glue almost seems like a lubricant, making the joint easier to close at assembly.

My pins & tails are almost always cut proud.

This is the dry fit of my current project:

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My original thoughts were toward trimming them proud as on another recent project:

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Eventually my decision was to trim them flush. This is fairly easy with a sharp chisel. My preferred chisel for this is a 1-1/2" paring chisel, though a smaller chisel would also work fine. Those images haven't been uploaded to my computer yet.

Before starting on this project my practicing on cutting dovetails was like yours. It always seems to help to warm up the old skills. Also my saw needed sharpening so that was attended to during the days of practicing.

Hope this helps,

jtk

[Tim Best]

Question on your dovetails - Are you seeing that baseline gap on the inside of the drawer to match the gap on the outside?

Hi David,

Yes, the gap, inside and outside, seems to match on every set that I have cut. The tails are also proud on every set. Both pieces of material are the same thickness, 7/8". I use the blue tape method as well--it is much easier to mark tails. As Derek notes on his website, it removes the need for multiple marking knife passes to mark the pins. I'll keep experimenting. With any luck whatever I am doing wrong will become obvious with time.

Re Saw sharpening: Thanks for the tips. I gave it a go this morning. It does cut better and still tracks straight. That is a win I suppose.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi David,

Yes, the gap, inside and outside, seems to match on every set that I have cut. The tails are also proud on every set. Both pieces of material are the same thickness, 7/8". I use the blue tape method as well--it is much easier to mark tails. As Derek notes on his website, it removes the need for multiple marking knife passes to mark the pins. I'll keep experimenting. With any luck whatever I am doing wrong will become obvious with time.

Re Saw sharpening: Thanks for the tips. I gave it a go this morning. It does cut better and still tracks straight. That is a win I suppose.

Tim, my aging eyes must be deceiving me. It appears your pins and tails are actually not as tall as the thickness of your stock.

One condition to possibly cause a tail board from not fully seating is if the pins are not cut square vertically. This will jam the process.

Another is any little bit of wood in the corners at the base of the tails can block proper seating. Make sure it is all clear.

With the gap showing on both sides holding it up to a light should help to indicate where the blockage is stopping the full seating to the baseline.

Some advocate cutting tails less than proud and then planing the surfaces to match.

Whether a person prefers proud, even or below surface pins & tails, it is all controlled by the setting of one's marking gauge or square used to mark the base line.

jtk

[Tim Best]

When the joint is made too tight, wood tends to split putting them together. Expansion of piece during glue up has not been a problem for me. My current project is in poplar. The dovetails dry fit rather tight. The glue almost seems like a lubricant, making the joint easier to close at assembly.

My pins & tails are almost always cut proud. jtk

Jim,

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I do mark with a marking gauge and then darken the line with pencil. Even though I have started using the blue tape method, I still darken with a pencil and then obviously take to much with the saw. It is easy to do while I am simultaneously focused on every other action that is required for a decent saw cut. The Tuesday tails and pins were cut away before I closely inspected the corners, but I suspect that the corners were not as clean as they should have been.

The Wednesday set were an exercise in futility! I should have walked away instead of banging my head against a brick wall. I guess I should take a pic for posterity. There is always tomorrow.

Thanks again.

Tim

[mike stenson]

I'm sorry if I missed this in the thread, but do you check between the tails and pins to make sure it's flat?

[Tim Best]

Hi Mike,
You didn’t miss it. It never occurred to me to check for flatness in between 🤦*♂️. Should have been obvious and probably is to most, but not me. Thanks.

[Jason Buresh]

Looking good! The pursuit of progression is addicting isnt it?
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This is the first joint on my cabinet i cut. Not bad, but some small gaps.
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This was the last joint.

I do not consider myself good at this, but if I had any tips to provide its saw confidently but leave the line, and to try and leave very little waste with the saws. I learned quickly the less waste you leave the saw the quicker, easier, and cleaner the chisel work is. I was being conservative at first and not sawing close to the line. Its faster to take your time with the saw than to saw fast and have lots of clean up.

Thanks for sharing your results!

[Tim Best]

Hi Jason,

The pursuit is addictive. Learning something new, despite the maddeningly unfortunate results, is also addictive. A sane person would throw in the towel and grab some pocket hole screws—sanity is overrated!

Tim

[Jim Koepke]

Jason's images show a common phenomenon. The last set of dovetails always seem to look much better than the first. That has me cutting the back dovetails for drawers first.

For my latest project a box worth of practice dovetails were cut before starting on the box. It did help in determining the layout and such.

Of course like everything else in life there were other challenges along the way.

jtk

[Tony Shea]

This is my latest project. It's going to be a mud room shelf with 2 drawers. I was relatively happy with the dovetails.


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[Tim Best]

Nice looking dovetails.

[Bill McDermott]

Tim, Intentionally, but slightly undercutting the baselines helps me close up the joint. To be clear, that means the very last chop, right on the gauge line angles in just a bit and it only half depth. I do the same thing from both sides. I keep the tail and pin sides as square as I can. Also, try a personal challenge to cut a practice set (or three) as fast as you can (all speed, not accuracy). That exercise helped me get over the hesitations and oddly, made me a more confident and effective sawyer.

[Ron Brese]

At first it's all about minimizing gaps. As you keep working at this it will eventually progress to "too tight to assemble". Keep at it you'll get there.

Ron

[Jim Koepke]

At first it's all about minimizing gaps. As you keep working at this it will eventually progress to "too tight to assemble". Keep at it you'll get there.

Ron

When they are "too tight to assemble" a fine toothed rasp works great on reducing the pins. This is based on my cutting tails first. Adjusting the tails is done before marking the pin board. After that point the tail board is left alone unless some error on the tail board was missed.

Some authors have suggested planing the pin board on the fat side of the pins to help them fit.

jtk

[Ben Ellenberger]

Tim, Intentionally, but slightly undercutting the baselines helps me close up the joint. To be clear, that means the very last chop, right on the gauge line angles in just a bit and it only half depth. I do the same thing from both sides. I keep the tail and pin sides as square as I can. Also, try a personal challenge to cut a practice set (or three) as fast as you can (all speed, not accuracy). That exercise helped me get over the hesitations and oddly, made me a more confident and effective sawyer.

I’m far from an expert, but I feel the same way about speed and confidence when sawing. I feel like I get the best results when I commit and just go for it. When I am slow and tentative things start to get funky.

to me it almost feels like trying to shoot a basketball or hit a golf ball. You have to get your body position and mechanics down through practice, but once you do it’s best to not think too much as you do it.

[steven c newman]

Just takes practice..
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Areas between pins, and tails,
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I can flatten with either small "Needle Rasp" or that coping saw..always seems to be a bump right in the center...look between the two on the left...
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Happens since I chop out the waste....

[Jim Koepke]

The gauge for marking the base line on my current project was made to be about 1/16" greater than the thickness of the stock to produce proud tails & pins:

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This is how a corner looks after the tails & pins have been pared:

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The glued in plugs for the two bottom panel grooves can be seen, but do not detract as much as they would if left as openings in the pins.

jtk

[Richard Hutchings]

2 drawers at once? What a great idea and the plug look fine to me.

[Jim Koepke]

2 drawers at once? What a great idea and the plug look fine to me.

Two drawers at once is a good idea.

This is actually to be a two layer box with a hinged top and a hinge between the layers. The inspiration came from the box for Russell Jennings auger bits.

My intent is to post on the making of it soon.

jtk

[Tim Best]

Thanks, Ron. I intend to keep at it. I love a challenge...and learning.

Tim

[Tim Best]

Jim, I am Looking forward to seeing finished project.

[Tim Best]

When they are "too tight to assemble" a fine toothed rasp works great on reducing the pins. This is based on my cutting tails first. Adjusting the tails is done before marking the pin board. After that point the tail board is left alone unless some error on the tail board was missed. jtk

I think today's dovetails could have benefitted from a rasp! These were cut pins first mostly because the last two days (not to mention the preceding 7 months) have been upside down for me so I decided to cut these "backwards." These are kind of ugly, fit way too tight, and cut from start to finish in under 30 mins. I am not sure if I classify these as a regression or not.

Upsides: I managed to get the saw usably sharp, sawing action/mechanics do not feel as foreign as they did 10 days ago, I managed to stop using a gorilla grip on the saw handle when sawing.

Downsides: None! I learned something, I have new things to try to make the dovetails look and fit better, my chisels are sharper than ever, and, after cutting dovetails basically every day for two weeks, I still have all my fingers. Have great weekend everyone.

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[Derek Cohen]

I always aim for a flush fit. The reason is that I fit freshly glued drawers into the drawer case to dry to the shape of the case. This requires a little more care when marking baselines, etc.

It is critical to get everything square when you transfer the marks (here, tails to pins) otherwise the box/drawer/carcase will not sit flat ...

https://i.postimg.cc/9XkM6KRd/3a.jpg

You know when everything will line up in the drawer at glue up .... when the dovetails on the last side just drop into their sockets ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Transformations4_html_m5d5b43db.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Transformations4_html_m78820e2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

I always aim for a flush fit. The reason is that I fit freshly glued drawers into the drawer case to dry to the shape of the case. This requires a little more care when marking baselines, etc.

It is critical to get everything square when you transfer the marks (here, tails to pins) otherwise the box/drawer/carcase will not sit flat ...

https://i.postimg.cc/9XkM6KRd/3a.jpg

You know when everything will line up in the drawer at glue up .... when the dovetails on the last side just drop into their sockets ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Transformations4_html_m5d5b43db.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Transformations4_html_m78820e2.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek


I used to aim for a flush fit and before that I aimed for an ever so slightly proud fit as Jim talks about. I now do neither and aim for my pin board to be completely above the end grain of the tail board, this is specifically aimed at drawer construction. I fit my drawer face to just fit into the opening. Therefore if my I have my tail board sitting ever so slightly proud of the that drawer front then the drawer will now not fit. This gives me a chance to plane the entire length of the drawer side until I reach the end grain of the drawer front and back. Then I can get my piston fit from there.

In terms of getting a square alignment when transferring tails to my pins I always use the rabbet method. When this rabbet method isn't possible I use two layers of blue tape and use my marking gauge to make a blue tape rabbet. As long as I don't push the tail board hard against the pin board so no to bend the tape I end up with very square alignment. I prefer the rabbet method but I sometimes forget and sometimes the build doesn't make this possible.

Aesthetics are another huge concern for my dovetails. My preference is always for wider tails with relatively narrow pins. This is mostly determined by the size of chisel I can fit inside the baseline of the tail board without damaging the tails. I actually really dislike the look of tails that get narrow at their baseline as well as when tails and pins are the same/similar size. But this is just a preference I have for the aesthetics of a piece and really holds no weight in terms of others aesthetics or the strength of the joint.

[Tim Best]

A special Sunday edition of dovetails. Some progress today. Baselines gaps remain, but that is product me being to aggressive with the chisel. The tails and pins fit really well with only minor fine tuning to get them to mate. More importantly, for me anyway, they fit mostly flush off the saw and they came together square. Perhaps one day soon a box will be the end result of all the cutting and chopping.

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[Tony Shea]

By the way Derek, I've learned so much of what I do today by reading your website and postings on this and other forums. You're really one of the best in terms of giving amazing advise for technique and aesthetics. We are lucky to have such a great resource like your website available to all of us and hope others just getting into this craft know and use it. You can spend days looking over the great articles there.

[Tony Shea]

A special Sunday edition of dovetails. Some progress today. Baselines gaps remain, but that is product me being to aggressive with the chisel. The tails and pins fit really well with only minor fine tuning to get them to mate. More importantly, for me anyway, they fit mostly flush off the saw and they came together square. Perhaps one day soon a box will be the end result of all the cutting and chopping.

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You're getting very close!! The next thing I would work on is the aesthetics of the joint. IMO, you should be using less tails that are wider and slightly narrower pins. Take a look around at some of the more well known woodworkers and look at their proportions. I would highly recommend looking around Derek Cohen's website and check out some of his dovetail articles and furniture builds. Another great resource for laying out the dovetails is Christopher Schwarz's method. This works great if you're looking for a symmetric tail layout and you can fine tune the size of the pins by whatever is left over after dividing across the width of the board. This will make more sense after you watch the method. On wider case work I prefer a layout that has a wide tail in the center of the board with smaller tails on the outside but this is completely personal preference. Either way I think your tails should be much wider than what you have there especially in thicker stock you're using. Keep on cutting and don't be afraid to just make a box out of your practice pieces. I think it's a waste of material if you don't complete the process. You also learn other aspects of the craft such as grooves, fitting a bottom, making a lid, installing hinges, etc.

[Tim Best]

Evening all,

I have to echo Tony's comment. Derek's website and willingness to constructively engage with everyone on this site is simply amazing. Thanks.

Tonight's dovetails represent a couple of departures. First, they are not morning tails, evening pins. Just a quick set cut because I needed a break from the office this evening. Second, there are fewer of them. I took Tony's advice and cut a couple larger tails with one very small pin in the middle. I like the aesthetics and I will keep tinkering with size and proportions. Third, I re-sharpened my dovetail saw. My initial sharpening last week produce a fast cut, but also made it hard to start the saw. Things went much smoother tonight after the re-sharpening. Fourth, I think I have done enough experimental joints to demonstrate to myself that dovetails can be cut by my hands. It is time to turn the practice into something usable. Still need practice as tonight's pics demonstrate, but I think I need a box. Maybe one with a lid and bottom to declutter the bench top. Anyway, enjoy and thanks for the advice and thoughtful critiques.

(Apologies for the shadows, my overhead lights were on the fritz tonight so I shut them off before I took the pics)

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