Rose Head Cut Nails

[ken hatch]

On my last project I used butt joints and cut nails for the joinery. While I do not use nails often, cut nails really do work well. Anyway someone asked about the cut nails. Here is a photo of the rose head nails I use:

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If you haven't used nails on a project you should try them. They are not for all joinery but for some projects they are pretty neat.

ken

[Mike Manning]

Ken,
How about posting a picture of the project you used them on?

Thanks!
Mike

[ken hatch]

Ken,
How about posting a picture of the project you used them on?

Thanks!
Mike

Sure Mike,

You can see the progress on the "Kitchen Trash Can" thread but here is a photo of the trash can in the short rows:

442236

ken

[David Eisenhauer]

Two things about about cut nails 1) they hold very, very well, 2) - they are much more likely to split the material than modern wire type nails if you do not pre drill correct-sized holes for them and are not used to using them. Practice on project-specific drop offs before jumping in on the show side of your box or case that you are using them on.

[Jim Koepke]

Cut or wrought nails worked fine for me when making five and six board benches:

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This is a six board bench.

The holes were pre-drilled using a template for location and notes about the hole size. The nails were barbed for better holding:

442238

A cold chisel was used to make the barbs.

Where a regular nail looks a bit tacky, a cut nail can be a decorative addition.

jtk

[Ron Brese]

I used some headed cut nails on this clock. Top is just as tight on the case as the day I drove them in. This was in walnut so these did require pre-drilling in order to prevent splitting. Added a pic of the finished clock.

Ron

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-eWUEy9qPyXU/VpXLFL9pC6I/AAAAAAAACE8/yKm9SaDUkGY/s900/WC4.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7hLiEZaDg7s/VpXIxypGdlI/AAAAAAAACEg/3DyNW0Z-NLg/s900/wcbp3.jpg

[chris carter]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7hLiEZaDg7s/VpXIxypGdlI/AAAAAAAACEg/3DyNW0Z-NLg/s900/wcbp3.jpg

That is absolutely ridiculous!!!!!!

[Rob Luter]

I really like these nails. I've used them on a couple Japanese style tool boxes. I purchased a selection of Rivierre Nail sample packs from Lie Nielsen as well as a few packs of Tremont cut nails from Lee Valley. I'm planning a pine pie safe project in a Country meets Shaker style and will use these to secure the joinery.

[Rob Luter]

Two things about about cut nails 1) they hold very, very well, 2) - they are much more likely to split the material than modern wire type nails if you do not pre drill correct-sized holes for them and are not used to using them. Practice on project-specific drop offs before jumping in on the show side of your box or case that you are using them on.

It's also important that they are oriented properly with the wedge of the nail running with the grain. Andrew Hunter has a nice piece on the use of cut nails and nailed joinery in FWW #263-Sep/Oct 2017

[ken hatch]

That is absolutely ridiculous!!!!!!

Ron,

I agree with Chris, beautiful. I would love to have a piece like it in my house.

It could happen, I've a very wide hunk of 4/4 Walnut that I've been moving around the shop for a couple or three years. It is too pretty to use on just anything but too small for most projects and I've resisted cutting it up for trim.

ken

[David Eisenhauer]

Clocks! Clocks! Clocks!

[ken hatch]

Two things about about cut nails 1) they hold very, very well, 2) - they are much more likely to split the material than modern wire type nails if you do not pre drill correct-sized holes for them and are not used to using them. Practice on project-specific drop offs before jumping in on the show side of your box or case that you are using them on.

David,

Remind 'em, most important, the thick side goes with the grain, not cross grain. I know so fundamental folks shouldn't need reminding but "stuff" happens.

ken

[Stan Calow]

Two things about about cut nails . . . they are much more likely to split the material than modern wire type nails if you do not pre drill correct-sized holes for them and are not used to using them.

David, I've used them a couple of times and never figured out what to base the pilot-hole size to since they are tapered and rectangular. Is there a rule of thumb?

[Mike Manning]

Cut or wrought nails worked fine for me when making five and six board benches:

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This is a six board bench.

...

jtk

Jim,
What is a board bench? Looks interesting.

Mike

[Daniel Culotta]

This happened to pop up today on the FWW blog - has some pilot hole rules of thumb. https://www.finewoodworking.com/2020/09/30/on-nails

Trying it out on a test piece still seems to be critical though.

[glenn bradley]

I'll chime in. these aren't made to show but . . . if anyone ever looks . . .

442254

The design of the nails makes them grip very well for back slats.

[steven c newman]

I seem to recall something about a square scratch awl, used as a pilot drill for the cut nails....

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,
What is a board bench? Looks interesting.

Mike

A five board bench uses five boards; two leg boards + two apron boards + one top board = five boards.

A six board bench has a board at the bottom of the aprons so there is a storage area under the hinged top board.

My first exposure to this was a Charles Neil video on YouTube > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX4fXbRNqqY

Search 5 board bench on YouTube and you will find some shorter videos. Charles Neil is kind of enjoyable to watch.

jtk

[ken hatch]

This happened to pop up today on the FWW blog - has some pilot hole rules of thumb. https://www.finewoodworking.com/2020/09/30/on-nails

Trying it out on a test piece still seems to be critical though.

Daniel,

Good link. Bottom line the best way to decide on size of pilot hole is to eyeball and test. I will usually start with a drill a thin red one smaller the the straightish part of the nail shaft.

ken

[Thomas Crawford]

I just bought some Rivierre nails to use on a boarded book shelf. Looking forward to using nice looking nails a more frequently.

[glenn bradley]

Coincidentally FWW has an article on this right now: https://www.finewoodworking.com/2020/09/30/on-nails

[David Eisenhauer]

The popular outfit that sells cut nails (forget the name) has lots of good info on using cut nails with directions on how to orient the nails. You definitely want to orient them correctly when using them. I drill test holes and make test nail drives in the same material that they will be used in before moving to the project piece. Things went better when I bit the bullet and slowed down enough to drill a larger pilot hole in the top material and then a slightly smaller hole in the bottom material (when nailing two pieces together). For those who have not tried them, cut nails' holding capacity is heads and shoulders above wire nails. Cut nails have sloping sides and wedge in tighter the deeper they go. Therein lies the problem as they say - that last hammer blow can cause the split as the last of the pilot hole diameter is challenged. With certain material or hardness or species or whatever, it can take a few test pilot hole drillings to come up with the correct formula for that project. I have used them in kiln-dried, hard material only and wonder if using them in softer, less-dried material (more "stretch" in the wood) might allow for a wider pilot hole range for successful use.

[Tom M King]

I have reheaded some old ones, when needed in my work on old houses. I've never had luck with much of a wedge shape, so I cheat, and straighten out the sides some. The old wrought iron ones, with little carbon in them, is pretty easy to reshape when red hot. I just use a Mapp torch, anvil, and another piece of metal with a hole in it to hold the nail upright for shaping the head. I shape the head first, and then do what I need to on the shank. I have hundreds of pounds of saved, old wrought iron nails in various sizes.

I have used Tremont nails before, but those don't really match the hand worked heads of wrought iron nails.

[Jim Koepke]

My recollection is of reading somewhere in the 18th & 19th century when people were pulling up stakes and moving they often burned down their buildings to collect the nails to take with them.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

Yes, with the exception of the door nails. Those were clinched over when used to nail the door frame in place and were therefore deemed not usable or not desirable at any rate. "Deader than a doornail......."

[ken hatch]

Yes, with the exception of the door nails. Those were clinched over when used to nail the door frame in place and were therefore deemed not usable or not desirable at any rate. "Deader than a doornail......."


David,

I am ashamed to admit I had never questioned that saying even though when growing up it was common. Thanks,

ken

[Mel Fulks]

Over the years I've saved old nails ,both cut and wrought. My understanding , from reading, is that the cut nails could
not be bent because "the grain " went cross ways since the early machines would not cut with the grain going the other
way. But I've always thought wrought nails could be bent. Never tried it because they are my "base ball card" equivalents.
Also read that wrought nails were made for some years after advent of cut nails. But most of the printed sources always
date wrought nails as being early, and giving a date range that doesn't include the over lap.

[Jim Koepke]

While growing up, we would often salvage nails from boxes, pallets and wherever else we could to use. Kids didn't have much money to go buy lumber and nails to build a fort so we got it from where ever we could find it.

jtk

[Tom M King]

My recollection is of reading somewhere in the 18th & 19th century when people were pulling up stakes and moving they often burned down their buildings to collect the nails to take with them.

jtk

Some towns had ordinances against burning down buildings to get the nails.

[Ron Brese]

A friend made a small hatch cover for the opening of an outdoor masonry oven thinking it would be far enough from the flame not to ignite. Next day he discovered the hatch had not be far enough away and was searching thru the ashes to reclaim the nails.:)

[Michael J Evans]

On the topic of burning down buildings to get nails. My grandfather would never through anything away at his business whether it was good or not, he always had this reasoning, that it was still good to someone. He basically built and started his business on buying, sorting and selling, excess lots of products from ww2, Vietnam, business closures, etc. Seems like quite a few people I've met from older generations have a hard time throwing stuff out. It's weird to think of a time when items we're so hard to come by.

[David Eisenhauer]

Not necessarily that items were all hard to come by, but very definitely the fact that labor was cheaper than goods drove folks to doing lots of recovery, repair and re purposing of stuff instead of buying new. I think the turnover started happening maybe around the 1960's - 1970's or so. I remember working with an uncle on building a back patio cover or porch for a lady when I was a teenager. When we showed up for the second day of work, she and her daughter had picked up all of the nails we pulled from the older structure (plus what we bent when driving and discarded) the evening before and straightened them all out and gave them to use for use so we could save her money on the job. My uncle told her he would knock off on the price of the job and told me not to let them see us not using the nails. Even then I knew that straightened nails don't work near as good as new nails and that nails were cheap. My grandparents surely, and parents to an extent, never fully recovered from the effects of the Great Depression.

[Erich Weidner]

This happened to pop up today on the FWW blog - has some pilot hole rules of thumb. https://www.finewoodworking.com/2020/09/30/on-nails

Trying it out on a test piece still seems to be critical though.


Thanks for the link. In previous articles/books I've seen mentioned "match the tip size to the bit" and I've never been able to get that to work. In this post it clearly shows matching the bit to not just the very tip of the nail's width, but further up the nail. Hopefully this will help with splitting going forward for me.