Frustrated with jointing

[Thomas Colson]

Picked up a few Sergents on CL for cheap cheap, got them tuned up and scary sharp. Wanting to learn how to live the Neanderthal lifestyle so I'm just messing around with scrap wood, smoothing and jointing. Smoothing and flattening is no problem with the 409. My problem is with technique on jointing anything from 6-48" long. Clamp it up in the vice, I'm getting paper-thin shavings across the entire width (3/4), but no matter how careful I am, how I hold the planer, how slow or fast I go, I always manage to take what was once an edge 90 deg to the face and skew it, by many degrees, to the left or the right. It can be either direction. I'm clearly not doing something right, or the 1,323,312 videos I've watched on hand jointing left out a secret key detail (Lee Valley marketing? Buy their 500$ jointer then it will work?). I can repeat this on S4S lumber fresh off the shelf at wood craft, or what just came off the saw mill. Yes the blade is perfectly parallel to the sole. Unfortunately Covid cancelled the numerous hand plane classes that are normally offered in my area until there's a vaccine, and there's now a years long wait list to get back in those classes, apparently I'm not the only one that picked up some CL hand planes during the covid shutdown.

[ken hatch]

Picked up a few Sergents on CL for cheap cheap, got them tuned up and scary sharp. Wanting to learn how to live the Neanderthal lifestyle so I'm just messing around with scrap wood, smoothing and jointing. Smoothing and flattening is no problem with the 409. My problem is with technique on jointing anything from 6-48" long. Clamp it up in the vice, I'm getting paper-thin shavings across the entire width (3/4), but no matter how careful I am, how I hold the planer, how slow or fast I go, I always manage to take what was once an edge 90 deg to the face and skew it, by many degrees, to the left or the right. It can be either direction. I'm clearly not doing something right, or the 1,323,312 videos I've watched on hand jointing left out a secret key detail (Lee Valley marketing? Buy their 500$ jointer then it will work?). I can repeat this on S4S lumber fresh off the shelf at wood craft, or what just came off the saw mill. Yes the blade is perfectly parallel to the sole. Unfortunately Covid cancelled the numerous hand plane classes that are normally offered in my area until there's a vaccine, and there's now a years long wait list to get back in those classes, apparently I'm not the only one that picked up some CL hand planes during the covid shutdown.


Thomas,

Check with a square often. A straight edge on the plane can often lead to taking the edge of the board out of square because it doesn't take much of the plane taking a slightly bigger bite on one side to take the edge out. I like using a slightly cambered cutting edge so I can adjust by slightly moving the plane from one side to the other. Then if needed take the last pass or two with a straight cutter. The key is checking often and not letting it get grossly out of square. For straight edge sometimes it helps to take a few passes just out of the middle then plane until you get a full length full width shaving. It is also easy to make the ends lower than the middle, bottom line check often and correct early.

ken

[James Pallas]

What Ken said. You have to get your built in level working. It may help you to mark a square line across the end grain an 1/8 or so down from the edge you are working and checking often. Once out of square you have to take corrective action. If you let the plane have it’s way it will get progressively worse. The cambered edge works but you need to watch someone use the technique to get the routine down. Both for chambering the iron and using it.

[mike stenson]

Just tagging on as reinforcement? It's also not so easy to keep a square edge square. I hit that point, and stop. I also try and leave a hollow in the middle until everything's ready for a final pass or two. Kind of like face jointing. If it's a hump, it's way too easy to let it get out of control

[Jim Koepke]

Thomas, Jointing an edge is possibly the most difficult use of a bench plane. My technique for this is explained in the 16th post in this thread, Pointers and Techniques > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148076

You will have to become a contributor to see the images, a good use of $6.

Here is the text:


In my last job I wrote a manual for rebuilding the equipment we worked on in the shop. One of the exercises suggested was to use the calipers and spacers to train the worker's eye to be able to look at something and determine the size of items in the 0.001" to 0.040 range. Of course, if one had feeler gauges they could also train them self with this or a similar exercise.

The goal would be to reach an ability to look at the edge of a board with a square and if it did not show square, know by the gap how far it was from square and then, knowing the thickness of their shavings be able to square the edge with a known number of passes.

The board shown was about 0.005" out of square. I was making shavings just a little over 0.001".

[image not included]

The plane is set on the board's edge and tilted very slightly. The left hand is working like a gauge fence. The shaving is also being watched and is only taking a shaving on about 1/4 of the edge on the high side. The next pass will be registered on this narrow flat. This will result in a shaving about 1/2 of the edge's width. Another pass with a 3/4 shaving and one full width shaving and the board should check square.

One surprise of doing this is that pretty soon, you will find you are making square edges without the trimming.

I often do the same with a jointer, here is a #7 being used. Be careful and check for possible splinters before doing this.

Also when jointing an edge a #409 can be used, however, a longer plane like a Sargent #414 or a Stanley #5 would be a better choice for short pieces. For longer work, something like a #7 or #8 would be preferable.

The shorter planes are more susceptible to rocking from side to side.

In the long run it is all about developing your technique of planing.

jtk

[Thomas Wilson]

I have the same problem. There are some ways to cheat. 1) Make a jointing shooting board. Mine is a piece of 1/2 plywood with a stop screwed to the end. My bench flat so I can use the bench top as the track. I clamp the work piece on top of the shooting board and stroke away with the plane on its side get a nice square edge. 2). Get a fence for your jointer. Mine is Veritas and is at its best with a Veritas plane but it is designed to work with any plane. Just hold the fence securely against the true face of the work piece and again skill level for jointing come back down to something mere mortals can achieve.

[Jim Koepke]

The cambered edge works but you need to watch someone use the technique to get the routine down. Both for chambering the iron and using it.

Having someone to show you techniques can be a great help.

You may want to list your location in your profile. You may live close to someone who would be willing to help you get this settled.

jtk

[Robert Hazelwood]

Does the error happen in a consistent way, like you are always taking too much off of the side closest to you or vise versa? If so you may be biasing the pressure to one side or the other. For edge jointing I put my left hand to the side of the plane and press down with my thumb on the area behind the front knob, centering the thumb pressure over the edge. I use my left hand fingers as a fence to keep the plane centered over the edge. I do not use the front knob at all, and use a fairly loose grip on the rear tote to avoid influencing the plane- I want it to rest completely flat on the edge being planed.

It's difficult to set the iron perfectly parallel to the sole. The more passes you take, the more the slightest discrepancy will cause an error. Let's say you get it to half a thou higher on one side, and take ten passes. One side is going to be about 0.005" higher and that will show up under a square.

So to some extent this is inevitable, especially if you are taking many passes to joint an edge. Check often and learn how to make subtle corrections. As you gain skill you will be able to joint with less shavings taken to get the edge straight, and then this sort of issue is reduced.

It's also possible that you may have an issue with the sole of the plane. Perhaps a twisted sole could cause this sort of error?

[Christopher Charles]

All the above. And I only use my left thumb held on the base of the plane (not knob) to push down and 'drive' with my right hand. Learned that even then I was changing angle/tilting some as I moved long the board, usually while taking a step, so started paying attention to more than hands. That helped me a lot.

[Tim Best]

Thomas,

Jointing an edge is difficult, but as with many things it becomes easier and more intuitive the more you do it. As Ken noted, check often with a square that you trust. I would add take light passes on the edge. It is easier to see a problem developing using light passes. Also, as Ken suggested, creating a slight hollow in the center 1/3 of the stock you are trying to joint is very helpful. Mike Siemsen has a good video on this that made sense to me. For me, the thinner the stock, the more difficult it is to joint an edge. Are you checking the to-be-jointed edge with a straight edge of some sort before you start working on it? It helps me to know what I am working with before I start removing material. Also, this may be the digital equivalent of kicking a hornet's nest, but I rarely drag out my jointer plane. Even on longer pieces, I find I can usually get a good edge with my #5.

[John Stankus]

If you are jointing for an edge glue up, joint both boards at the same time so the errors match.

John

[glenn bradley]

(Lee Valley marketing? Buy their 500$ jointer then it will work?).

I love my Veritas planes but, have pre-war and war-era planes as well. The BU Jointer is only about $300 and you do see them for sale used for a bit less and I would never fault someone for wanting a new tool. Will it solve your problem? Probably not.

I even have the fence attachment For my BU Jointer in a drawer somewhere that I picked up to help me learn to stay in position. It did do that and the muscle memory and technique do stick. Should you dump some cash when you already have a decent plane? I wouldn't. You could clamp, double stick tape or otherwise cobble a fence onto one of your existing planes to get an idea of what the benefit might be. I will say once you get your legs under you, the fence becomes a hindrance rather than a help.

[John Stankus]

If you are jointing for an edge glue up, joint both boards at the same time so the errors match.

John

Here is what I mean442208

[Prashun Patel]

I have the Veritas jointer. It's a good plane - but don't get it just for the auxiliary fence.

Practice. Color an edge and take thin shavings. You'll see where your pressure is off. After a while (take it from me; if *I* can do it anyone can), you can just feel it. Check frequently - like every 3-4 passes. With time, you'll have to check less.

As a crutch, you can hold a square block to the sole and the side of the board and use that as a fence to keep you square. You have to take light passes here. Your fore hand will not be able to hold the knob, so the passes have to be light.

I see a lot of folks that want a magic switch to make them proficient. The fact is, it requires practice - but not beat your head on the wall practice. You have to get good at analyzing your errors. This is where coaching saves you a bunch of time.

[Jim Koepke]

If you are jointing for an edge glue up, joint both boards at the same time so the errors match.

John

This works great in theory. One problem with a shorter plane like a #409 (Stanley #4) is if it creates waves. Then you will have high and low areas that can cause gaps.

For the best results when joining two pieces, use a longer plane.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

Hello
Material deflection is what I'm guessing what's happening.
Watch Mr Charlesworth's demonstrations.
Honesty is important, and David doesn't shy away from things in this regard.

Have fun
Tom

[ken hatch]

This works great in theory. One problem with a shorter plane like a #409 (Stanley #4) is if it creates waves. Then you will have high and low areas that can cause gaps.

For the best results when joining two pieces, use a longer plane.

jtk


Jim,

I agree. There is another problem doing two boards faceing, what if you plane a hump in the middle which is easy to do. Then you have two boards with a middle hump, not good. Get a longer plane and check often with square and straight edge.

ken

[Mark Rainey]

Been edge jointing by hand for many years. When I am doing a lot of work, I amaze myself with how square my edges are. If I am rusty & having a bad day, my edge trimming plane ( Veritas or LN ) saves the day and makes the edge dead square. Dead square.

[Winston Chang]

Been edge jointing by hand for many years. When I am doing a lot of work, I amaze myself with how square my edges are. If I am rusty & having a bad day, my edge trimming plane ( Veritas or LN ) saves the day and makes the edge dead square. Dead square.

I have a Veritas jointer fence that I can use on my Veritas low angle jack or bevel-up jointer, but I've often been frustrated by it because to use it, you have to put sideways pressure on the fence, and that's very awkward when using big planes like those.

BUT, this mention of the edge trimming planes gives me an idea. I can just make my own fence from a block of wood with a rabbet, and then clamp it to the side of a small plane. Even a block plane should work.

Then I can use the jointer plane to straighten the edge, and then use the block plane plus fence to make sure the edge is at a right angle to the face. I might try this out tonight.

[Mark Rainey]

I have a Veritas jointer fence that I can use on my Veritas low angle jack or bevel-up jointer, but I've often been frustrated by it because to use it, you have to put sideways pressure on the fence, and that's very awkward when using big planes like those.

BUT, this mention of the edge trimming planes gives me an idea. I can just make my own fence from a block of wood with a rabbet, and then clamp it to the side of a small plane. Even a block plane should work.

Then I can use the jointer plane to straighten the edge, and then use the block plane plus fence to make sure the edge is at a right angle to the face. I might try this out tonight.

Winston, that will work...this from "Tables" by Anthony Guidice.

442222

[Ben Ellenberger]

I’m really good at taking a 90 degree edge and changing its angle. I use a no 5 for edge jointing, but most panels I glue up are 30” or less. My blade has a tiny bit of camber, just from putting pressure on one side or the other as I finish honing it.

I’ll keep my left hand low, with my thumb on the front of the plane and my fingers as a fence against the piece. I alternate keeping my right hand on the handle or dropping it low around the plane. Not sure which I prefer. Once I get the edge close to straight I just keep checking for square. I don’t try to angle the plane, I just keep it as level as I can and shift it toward the high side. I’ll take a 1/4 width shaving, then 1/2 width, then 3/4 width, then full width. As I get closer I reduce the depth of cut and for the final fine tuning just do 1/2 width then full width.

i definitely think that edge jointing is tricky and takes practice. Sometimes I get it right really quick, and sometimes it seems like I chase the angle back and forth a few times before I get it right.

[Phil Gaudio]

Do a search for David Charlesworth and edge jointing using a cambered blade. A fence can also help: I have used this approach and it does work. Here is one link I found to David's approach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1ztIO6RAYU

[Jim Matthews]

Here is what I mean442208

Matchplaning is also the way I was taught.
I like to leave a slight gap in the center of the span, with both ends touching.

Search : sprung joint

[steven c newman]

BEFORE you run the plane along an edge.....lay the straightedge along the side, and draw a straight pencil line, on BOTH faces of the board. Start from the same point at each end, so the lines will be parallel to each other.......plane along until you barely nick the pencil lines, then check where you missed the lines.

Clamp the board as low as you can....hard to stay level with your elbows flapping in the breeze at shoulder height. The wrap your thumb over the edge of the plane, instead of around that knob....The other 4 fingers are under the plane, use those as your fence..as you can feel any tilting going on.....do not try to go the entire length in one pass, if you have to move your feet to do so, stop, move your feet and then start pushing again....

I have a habit of resting my right elbow on the heel of the plane....I find I can keep pressure there better, when I am near the "far end"......elbow also helps when I lift the plane up to bring it back to the start point.

Take a couple passes, stop, look at those lines, check with the straight edge on top of the edge...looking for gaps. Have been known to just lay a 48" level on the edge....to check for low spots...high spots are easy to find, a finger on each end, and press down.....if you get a see-saw effect....high spot is the pivot...

Sometimes...you can actually use too long of a plane.....where it will only cut the 1 or 2 high spots, and miss everywhere else....in that case, a smaller plane to lower just those high spots, then a pass or 3 with the long plane to finish it up. Plane until you just nick the lines.

[Winston Chang]

Well, that was easy. I had this scrap of baltic birch laying around. I planed one side to get it really flat, cut a rabbet on that side, and then used a router plane to ensure the rabbet and face were parallel. (Of course, even if they're not exactly parallel, or if your plane has sides that aren't quite square to the sole, you can compensate by adjusting the blade laterally.)

Not the prettiest thing in the world, but it seems to work pretty well for squaring an edge square to a face.

442233

Like I said earlier, I have a fence that I can use on my big Veritas planes, but I've always found it difficult to keep enough sideways pressure on it so that the plane stays in the correct orientation. If you've tried to use a fence on a big plane, you probably know what I mean. It doesn't help that my workbench is viseless, so I have to use other fixtures to hold a board standing on edge.

Anyway, this seems to work in my quick testing: plane the edge straight using a jointer plane, and make it close to square to the face. Then use this small plane plus fence to get it really square. In some cases the edge might need another pass from a jointer plane to make sure that it's still straight, but if the plane is adjusted well, that shouldn't put it out of square to any significant degree.

[Jim Koepke]

It doesn't help that my workbench is viseless, so I have to use other fixtures to hold a board standing on edge.

There are ways to hold a workpiece securely on edge without a vise:

442239

A batten parallel to the front edge with another piece at an angle secured by dog holes can also be a way to hold pieces on edge. Depending on the set up a wedge may be needed.

These alternate ways can be handy when doing a lot of edge planing since it is much faster to change out a piece than having to work a vise every time you change the workpiece.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

Don't know if this helpful or not but I try to match plane all the edges I can. Seems to eliminate certain a certain class(es) of problem.

[Thomas Colson]

Gonna try some of these ideas this weekend. To clarify, I'm trying to decide if I want/am good enough to be a neanderthal. The way I read it, if I can mostly make the 409 work, then it's time for me to pick up a #7 or a #8. I don't want to spend money to compensate for a deficiency in technique. Another thing I should mention....I had carpal tunnel surgery 2 years ago. While I can now drive a keyboard (my day job) with no pain, I lost a significant amount of wrist strength and hand endurance. That ship has already sailed and its not getting fixed. I can earn a living but have limited endurance for holding a 5lb plane level while shoving it back and forth. Do you think bookmatching (in effect widening the surface I'm jointing) might help me out here? On another note it looks like I can get into a class in April 2021! I've been obsessively lurking the online and estate sales...no planes worth anything have turned up in months, and bad experience in the past prevents me from going the ebay route to get a jointer.

[Tom Trees]

How are you holding the work?

Nothing to stop you planing edges on the flat when you need, just like a shooting board.
I do this for narrow stock.
Raise the work up off the bench a bit to centre the edge with the camber and clamp the work down.

You could go all fancy and make a long edge shooting board something like what Derek Cohen has, the principal is the same.

All the best

[ken hatch]

Gonna try some of these ideas this weekend. To clarify, I'm trying to decide if I want/am good enough to be a neanderthal. The way I read it, if I can mostly make the 409 work, then it's time for me to pick up a #7 or a #8. I don't want to spend money to compensate for a deficiency in technique. Another thing I should mention....I had carpal tunnel surgery 2 years ago. While I can now drive a keyboard (my day job) with no pain, I lost a significant amount of wrist strength and hand endurance. That ship has already sailed and its not getting fixed. I can earn a living but have limited endurance for holding a 5lb plane level while shoving it back and forth. Do you think bookmatching (in effect widening the surface I'm jointing) might help me out here? On another note it looks like I can get into a class in April 2021! I've been obsessively lurking the online and estate sales...no planes worth anything have turned up in months, and bad experience in the past prevents me from going the ebay route to get a jointer.

Thomas,

I do not have carpal tunnel and metal #7 or #8 planes are too heavy and hard for me to push around. My answer is wood stock planes, much lighter and easier to push across wood. The thought of actually using a LN #8 for more that a couple or three passes would make me run to my machines to do the job. If the job calls for a plane longer than a #5 the wood stocks come out to play.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

This just came to mind. The linked page is often suggested when people ask about making winding sticks.

Working an edge straight is different than 'matched planing' > https://www.scribd.com/document/50097193/Making-Accurate-Straight-Edges-from-Scratch

It is helpful information if for nothing else than a lesson in how to look at an edge and maybe even do some trouble shooting to get two pieces to join better.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

...I had carpal tunnel surgery 2 years ago. While I can now drive a keyboard (my day job) with no pain, I lost a significant amount of wrist strength and hand endurance. That ship has already sailed and its not getting fixed. I can earn a living but have limited endurance for holding a 5lb plane level while shoving it back and forth.

This is an important consideration.

I'm in parallel with this, as arthritis is wrecking my hands.

The height of your bench makes a *huge* difference to technique. I prefer to plane at the height of my belt line.

Pulling planes, and using the front (leading) hand mire helps spread the load.

Padded bicycle gloves or "grippy" yard work gloves help.

Drop me a PM for an offer of assistance.

[David Eisenhauer]

Let me echo Ken's suggestion of using a wooden plane rather than a metal plane for your jointing work. In my experience, there is a significant difference in the feel of both planes - same technique, different subjective feel due to less weight and the slick wood plane sole. Add this factor in with Jim's lower planning bench height and it should help with your physical issues. Also, as others have described above, (for a right hander) use your left hand fingers and finger tips to support the overhanging plane sole and maintain an 90* angle between the sole and the material. Give yourself some time to develop muscle memory. Finally, when I am consistently jointing slightly off square and I feel like I am holding the plane square as I usually do, I adjust the iron to cut square. sometimes you are planning correctly but the iron is cutting slightly deeper on one side. Adjusting the iron by comparing the thickness of the shavings from the right and left sides of the iron by feel is not an exact science. Make a few passes with an out-of-square set iron and you will not end up with a 90* jointed edge.

[Richard Hutchings]

That thing is amazing!!!


There are ways to hold a workpiece securely on edge without a vise:

442239

A batten parallel to the front edge with another piece at an angle secured by dog holes can also be a way to hold pieces on edge. Depending on the set up a wedge may be needed.

These alternate ways can be handy when doing a lot of edge planing since it is much faster to change out a piece than having to work a vise every time you change the workpiece.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

That thing is amazing!!!

An old episode of The Woodwright's Shop was on Viceless Devices > https://www.pbs.org/video/woodwrights-shop-viceless-devices/

My old post using this is here > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?223428

jtk