Oilstones versus water

[David Ryle]

For the last eight years I've sharpened my tools with waterstones, they work well, sharpen quickly, the results are consistent, but I'm getting a little tired of the mess, constant re-flattening and because my shop isn't heated, I have to keep my stones indoors in the winter etc; I'm thinking of switching over to oilstones, opinions, one versus the other?

[Robert Hazelwood]

I like them. If you freehand sharpen and use high carbon steel, you will probably like them too. If you use a guide and more wear-resistant steel you may not like them as much.

I use a Norton Fine India, Soft Arkansas from Natural Whetstone, and Translucent Arkansas from Dan's. The latter is expensive, but the first two are quite affordable.

They are fairly maintenance free compared to waterstones. But the fine india and soft ark do benefit from occasional scuffing with a diamond stone to keep the surface more aggressive. They tend to wear in and get finer over time. I do not ever scuff the translucent.

[Rafael Herrera]

I started with waterstones and a honing guide. I got tired of splashing water and the constant maintenance the stones required. I switched to free handing with a Washita and leather strop with buffing compound for my routine sharpening. I don't mind the oil and swarf mix and clean up is not a bother. My tools are mainly made of cast steel and O1. I've also tried the unicorn profile with the buffer wheel and I'm at least not ruining the edge.

[ken hatch]

Pretty much what Robert said. Everything to follow is based on using High Carbon Steel and not A2. When you take stone maintenance into account oil stones are at least as fast and maybe faster than synthetic water stones. Because of the scratch pattern from natural stones (oil and JNAT) you will get a better and longer lasting edge. The difference is very small and only a sharpening nerd would care but it is real. Another difference is in the "shine" of the polished edge, if your end all and be all is the shine of your edge you may not like oil stones or even JNATs for that matter. Just remember shine does not equal sharp nor is it necessarily an indication of how smooth the surface is. The one place synthetic stones can best natural stones is grinding. A India works well for grinding.

Good luck, natural stones are worth the effort.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

My shop likely doesn't get quite as cold in the winter, though it too is unheated. That is why my sharpening consisted of water and oilstones.

Over time my acquisition of a few better oilstones (from Dan's Whetstones) has me sharpening with oil even in the warmer months.

A washita stone (or equivalent) is nice for coarse work such as working out a nick in an edge. These are hard to find and there are a lot of pretenders on ebay with artificial stones they call washita stones.

A Smith's Arkansas stone purchased at Lowe's has the texture of my washita stones and is a decent equivalent. They are not the flattest stone to be found. They also seem to only have 6" X 1-3/4" X 1/2" mounted on a plastic holder.

My other oilstones are a Dan's soft, hard and black Arkansas. Dan's soft isn't as coarse as the Smith's Arkansas stone.

Now my waterstones are mostly used for my A2 blades. There are only a couple of those in my shop.

In my early days of sharpening on oilstones my edges were never really great. It took my learning to sharpen on water stones before my ability on oilstones improved.

One of my coworkers gave me a great bit of advice for sharpening on oilstones, "push it into the stone like you mean it." This doesn't end well on water stones.

jtk

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Well, at the risk of starting another firestorm...

I started with the oil stones I inherited from my dad. Wasn’t in love with the results (the stones were on the small side) or the oily mess so bought a set of Norton waterstones - 220, 1000, 4000, 8000. My sharpening skills improved (I use a Veritas jig), but I really grew to hate the mess and the constant maintenance. Now, as each waterstone reaches the point of too thin to use, I replace it with the equivalent DMT Dia-Sharp diamond stone. I may never wear down my 4000 and 8000 stones, but may replace them as well when/if I have a bit more disposable cash. I’m spending a lot more time using my tools than indulging the sharpening process. The majority of my irons/blades are A2 and I don’t check each edge under an electron microscope, but am very satisfied and can’t imagine using anything else. Oh, I do strop each blade as a final sharpening step on a strip of horse butt leather purchased from TFWW.

[Ben Ellenberger]

I did almost the exact same thing as you. I started with that set of norton stones and was happy with the results I got, but I’ve switched to diamond stones so I don’t have to keep flattening water stones and dealing with the mess. I go 325 - 600 - 1200 on DMT stones. I have a hard black oil stone for polishing, then use a block of maple with green polish as a strop.

most of my tools are O1, but I’ve got a few A2 tools that seem to do fine with that set-up.

[Jim Matthews]

I switched to oil stones to avoid water in my shop.

Harder steel, like A2 or PM v-11 take longer on Arkies.
The real trick is teasing off the eire edge.

[Tom Trees]

I switched to water for my oil stones, as I use one inbetween the rough diamond and the superfine diamond.
Nearly a year on and am happy.
I have very porous skin for one reason.
It's easier to see the burr with water.

Plenty of spritzing with a spray bottle needed, so might be a bit wet for some folk.
Don't think my wooden oil stone box will have much of a lifespan, but time making another will be cheaper than buying oil forever.

Pair mortises with the chisel still wet and don't care. :)

Tom

[Dave Zellers]

One of my coworkers gave me a great bit of advice for sharpening on oilstones, "push it into the stone like you mean it." This doesn't end well on water stones. jtk

Now this, is exactly what I needed to hear. I have 6 Shaptons from 320 to 12,000 and absolutely love them but over the last couple years I have acquired soft, hard and black Arkansas stones from Dan's and I love them too but I pretty much used them the same way as the water stones. I can tell this will make a difference in my results before I even apply it. It makes perfect sense- different stones, different techniques. I always felt the Arkansas stones were slower. I had also felt the water stones were better for my chisels and irons and the Arkansas were better for kitchen knives but that could simply be because the Arkansas stones are bigger than the Shaptons.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The real trick is teasing off the eire edge.

I just could not get an edge with my Arkansas stones until it was mentioned that I should do this... Flipping my chisel over with finer / lighter strokes. Who knew? Turns out that improved my sharpening on my Shapton water stones as well.

I do not remember which fine gentleman suggested it here on the creek, but it does indeed make a huge difference.

[ken hatch]

Andrew it is known as chasing the burr.

Full disclosure I own and have used Shapton stones.

For a sharp usable edge not only should the bevel and the back meet at an acute angle but for the edge to last it needs to be smooth. The Unicorn folks have proven that. Shiny may not be smooth, sharp sided scratches can reflect more light than rounded scratches. Some of the most prized JNAT finishing stones leave a cloudy finish with little shine but a very smooth surface. I'm not picking on Shapton stones, it is just I own a set and I'm familiar with them. Shapton knows its market as I expect most other makers of synthetic water stones do , synthetic water stones cut fast for grit and leave a beautiful shine. Both factors sell.

If you look at a cutter under magnification that has been sharpened on a natural stone (oil or JNAT) vs. a synthetic stone you can see the difference in scratch pattern. The natural stone scratches will be more random and softer sided, the cutter will likely not be as shiny as the same cutter polished on a synthetic stone. The synthetic stone polished cutter's scratches will be more ordered and sharper sided, less rounded. In other words less smooth but likely shiny enough to blind you.

Does any of this matter, my guess not likely unless you are a sharpening nerd. If you like the results from your synthetic water stones or even your diamond stones keep on trucking. But if you want the best, longest lasting edge then natural stones or the Unicorn process is the way to go.

ken

[Jim Matthews]

I do not remember which fine gentleman suggested it here on the creek, but it does indeed make a huge difference.

Probably Derek.

Most everything I know that's useful came outta his blog.

(Plenty of stuff I know isn't remotely useful but it came from somewhere else.)

[Orlando Gonzalez]

I have and use both. The oil stones are inside the shop the water stones outside. I don't have to worry about them freezing here in So. Florida since we only have 3 seasons - summer, football, and hurricane. My oil stones are a Norton Crystolon, a Washita, and Dan's Soft, Hard, Translucent, and Black Arkansas. My waterstones consist of 6 Sigma Power Ceramic stones (#120, #700, 1K, 6K 8K, and 13K), 6 Sigma Power Select II (#240, #400, 1K, #1200, 3K, 6K), a Suehiro Rika 5K, and a Japanese Tomae medium-hard natural stone.

I also have a Gesshin 8K ceramic waterstone and a Hall's Translucent Arkansas that I want to sell and will put up in the classifieds soon.

[Thomas Crawford]

I switched to 400 and 1200 Diamond stones, then over to 4000-8000 waterstones. Much better, and the diamond stone can flatten the waterstones as needed, which isn't too often on the high grit.

[alan west]

I have used oil stones for the last 10 years. I have made quite a bit of furniture with hand tools and as a result sharpen a lot. I use a guide, a medium india, a black arkansas, and a strop. Sharpening for me takes 3-5 minutes. I also hollow grind on a grinder when needed. Keep in mind at some point your oil stones will need to be flattened too. For this task I use loose grit with windex on a piece of granite about every 10-14 days. Takes me about 10-15 minutes to do both sides of two stones. This process also cleans the stones and they cut like new when done. The medium india has to be flattened 2-3 times more often than the Arkansas, and I buy a new one every 2-3 years. I still have my original Black Arkansas

[Richard Hutchings]

What is this loose grit thing? Does it affect the granite?

[Rafael Herrera]

It could be silicon carbide grit. That's what I use, but on float glass, simply because I have a large piece and it's lighter and disposable. I presume he's using a granite counter top piece or tile, not a graded flat piece.

Will granite wear faster or slower than glass? My glass piece has certainly wore, but it's not out of flat yet.

[ken hatch]

For those of us who freehand, if we use the whole stone, will likely never need to flatten or "refresh" our polishing stone. Much the same story with the softer stones although an occasional refresh will keep them cutting faster if you wish. I can't really answer the question about loose grit on granite but I would think the granite would be softer than the loose grit.

I know broken record and all that rot but: I find jigs introduce more problems (such as needing to flatten your stones more often) than they fix and learning to freehand sharpen is simple and easy to learn. I also know this is semi off topic but only semi because not needing as much stone maintenance is one of the advantages of oil stones vs. synthetic water stones.

ken

[Robert Hazelwood]

I have used oil stones for the last 10 years. I have made quite a bit of furniture with hand tools and as a result sharpen a lot. I use a guide, a medium india, a black arkansas, and a strop. Sharpening for me takes 3-5 minutes. I also hollow grind on a grinder when needed. Keep in mind at some point your oil stones will need to be flattened too. For this task I use loose grit with windex on a piece of granite about every 10-14 days. Takes me about 10-15 minutes to do both sides of two stones. This process also cleans the stones and they cut like new when done. The medium india has to be flattened 2-3 times more often than the Arkansas, and I buy a new one every 2-3 years. I still have my original Black Arkansas


Do you a sharpen a lot of narrow chisels or carving tools? I ask because flattening oilstones every 2 weeks seems very excessive. I have had my India stone for about 3 years now, and despite being the hardest-worked stone in my collection it is essentially the original thickness. I expect it would last decades of serious hobby use. I do scuff it with a diamond stone to keep the cutting speed up, but it doesn't require flattening. However I am freehand sharpening mostly wider chisels and plane irons and make a point to use the entire stone. I could see where sharpening things like small gouges all the time would wear the stone it in certain areas and require more frequent flattening.

With that said, if you do need to flatten an oilstone then loose silicon carbide grit is a good way to go. If your surface is granite I would recommend using a plastic laminate sheet (available from lee valley) as a sacrificial surface for the grit to embed in. Otherwise I exepct the SiC grit would eat the granite as much as the stone, though if you are careful to use the surface equally you could manage to keep it fairly flat.

[Steve Voigt]

Do you a sharpen a lot of narrow chisels or carving tools? I ask because flattening oilstones every 2 weeks seems very excessive. I have had my India stone for about 3 years now, and despite being the hardest-worked stone in my collection it is essentially the original thickness. I expect it would last decades of serious hobby use. I do scuff it with a diamond stone to keep the cutting speed up, but it doesn't require flattening. However I am freehand sharpening mostly wider chisels and plane irons and make a point to use the entire stone. I could see where sharpening things like small gouges all the time would wear the stone it in certain areas and require more frequent flattening.

With that said, if you do need to flatten an oilstone then loose silicon carbide grit is a good way to go. If your surface is granite I would recommend using a plastic laminate sheet (available from lee valley) as a sacrificial surface for the grit to embed in. Otherwise I exepct the SiC grit would eat the granite as much as the stone, though if you are careful to use the surface equally you could manage to keep it fairly flat.


I had the same reaction…I used a 8" x 3" x 1/2"-thick India stone for about five years, working close to full time in the shop, and it lost about 1/8" in thickness. I'd normally abrade it once every month or two with the loose SiC on glass. It normally take only 30 seconds to abrade it, maybe a minute at most.
Also, another thumbs up for the plastic laminate sheets. They save the glass, but they also just do a much better job of holding the abrasive grit in place.
Last year I shelled out for an Atoma 400 and I now use that to resurface my Arkansas stones--it's more convenient and less harsh on the stones. I still use the loose SiC on the India stone though, because it's coarser.

[Warren Mickley]

I used a fine India stone until I bought a Washita stone in 1977. The India stone was used over 100,000 times and never flattened or abraded. I measured the wear for the first time this morning. It was about .005 thinner in the middle than the ends. If it had been hollow from side to side it would have been a problem, but it was flat from side to side.

My black Arkansas (1976) has never been abraded and is still 1.000 inches thick.

[Rafael Herrera]

Warren,

How about the medium and coarse India stones, are they more likely to need periodic maintenence?

I have a combination crystolon stone and it needs lapping every few months.

Also, how often does your Washita stone need maintenance?

Wouldn't the sharpening technique used affect the likelihood of wearing the stone unevenly? What are the do and don'ts of free handing?

[ken hatch]

Warren,

How about the medium and coarse India stones, are they more likely to need periodic maintenence?

I have a combination crystolon stone and it needs lapping every few months.

Also, how often does your Washita stone need maintenance?

Wouldn't the sharpening technique used affect the likelihood of wearing the stone unevenly? What are the do and don'ts of free handing?

Rafael,

Not Warren :p but I'll still put my 2 pennies in. When I first got my Washita I made sure it was flat. BTW, it wasn't far off and have not touched it since. Yes technique matters. Work the sides and ends occasionally "hanging ten", the middle will take care of itself if you spend most of your time using short strokes on the ends.

ken

[Bill Yacey]

Another difference is in the "shine" of the polished edge, if your end all and be all is the shine of your edge you may not like oil stones or even JNATs for that matter. Just remember shine does not equal sharp nor is it necessarily an indication of how smooth the surface is. The one place synthetic stones can best natural stones is grinding. A India works well for grinding.

Good luck, natural stones are worth the effort.

ken
I have to respectfully disagree. Any microgrooves left in the honed surface leave small tooth grooves right through the cutting edge. If you look at microscopic photos of honed edges with varying degrees of stone grits, the finest edges have the least grooves and the sharpest edge.

[ken hatch]

I have to respectfully disagree. Any microgrooves left in the honed surface leave small tooth grooves right through the cutting edge. If you look at microscopic photos of honed edges with varying degrees of stone grits, the finest edges have the least grooves and the sharpest edge.


Bill,

You either did not read or understand my post. If I read your reply correctly we are in agreement, the scratch pattern at the cutting edge has an effect on sharpness and for the most part determines edge longevity. The smoother the scratch pattern, ceteris paribus, the better the edge will be.

ken

[Warren Mickley]

Warren,

How about the medium and coarse India stones, are they more likely to need periodic maintenence?

I have a combination crystolon stone and it needs lapping every few months.

Also, how often does your Washita stone need maintenance?

Wouldn't the sharpening technique used affect the likelihood of wearing the stone unevenly? What are the do and don'ts of free handing?

Yes, in general the coarse oil stones are more vulnerable to wear.

The Washita stone does wear. For about twenty five years I have used one side of my Washita for plane irons and wide chisels, and the other for gouges and narrow chisels. The result is that the one side has remained quite flat and the other is rather hollow, but it has not needed dressing because the gouges do not need such a flat surface.

I use an 800 grit water stone for coarse work on plane irons and chisels. I let the tool overhang the edge of the stone so that the entire width of the stone gets worn. Managing the stone like this keeps the stone flat across the width (or a very little bit hollow, which is desirable). The stone tends to get hollow along the length, which has to be addressed occasionally, but is not as critical.

[Jim Matthews]

Yes, in general the coarse oil stones are more vulnerable to wear.

The Washita stone does wear. For about twenty five years I have used one side of my Washita for plane irons and wide chisels, and the other for gouges and narrow chisels. .

Do you recommend "dressing" these stones to keep the cutting action fresh?
My Lily White Arkie gets to cutting slow during heavier planing sessions.

[Steve Voigt]

I used a fine India stone until I bought a Washita stone in 1977. The India stone was used over 100,000 times and never flattened or abraded. I measured the wear for the first time this morning. It was about .005 thinner in the middle than the ends. If it had been hollow from side to side it would have been a problem, but it was flat from side to side.

My black Arkansas (1976) has never been abraded and is still 1.000 inches thick.


Warren,
I suppose if one's goal is to maintain a cheap India stone in pristine condition forever, then your method is a good strategy. On the other hand, if one wants a stone that works aggressively, then abrading it from time to time is a much better strategy.
One of the interesting things that came out of David Weaver's micro-photographs on Wood Central was the comparison of scratch patterns from settled-in vs. freshly abraded oil stones. The evidence was quite clear: a freshly abraded stone creates a scratch pattern that is only slightly more coarse, but is also more uniform. In other words, there is little or no advantage to be gained from letting the stone settle in. On the other hand, there is a very clear advantage in cutting speed from a stone that is abraded occasionally.
It's good to have firm convictions, but they ought to be malleable in the face of hard evidence. If you've never abraded your stones, how are you even in a position to say whether it's a good or bad method? I've experimented a great deal over the last decade or so with abrading oil stones frequently, occasionally, or not at all, and have found occasional abrading to be the most useful strategy. But as they say, "you do you."

[Michael J Evans]

Warren,
I suppose if one's goal is to maintain a cheap India stone in pristine condition forever, then your method is a good strategy. On the other hand, if one wants a stone that works aggressively, then abrading it from time to time is a much better strategy.
One of the interesting things that came out of David Weaver's micro-photographs on Wood Central was the comparison of scratch patterns from settled-in vs. freshly abraded oil stones. The evidence was quite clear: a freshly abraded stone creates a scratch pattern that is only slightly more coarse, but is also more uniform. In other words, there is little or no advantage to be gained from letting the stone settle in. On the other hand, there is a very clear advantage in cutting speed from a stone that is abraded occasionally.
It's good to have firm convictions, but they ought to be malleable in the face of hard evidence. If you've never abraded your stones, how are you even in a position to say whether it's a good or bad method? I've experimented a great deal over the last decade or so with abrading oil stones frequently, occasionally, or not at all, and have found occasional abrading to be the most useful strategy. But as they say, "you do you."

Steve
I don't believe warren said one way or the other to abrade or not. I also didn't read it as he was trying to convince anyone, to do anything lol. He literally was just stating his experience.

[Tom M King]

My Arkansas stones are about the same age as Warren's. I used to flatten the Washita, and Soft with left over Silicon Carbide grit I had from grinding telescope mirrors when I was a teenager. I'd use an old window pane on the flat side of a cinder block. It worked. I don't remember what grit I used, since that was some decades ago.

My Hard, and Black stones were never flattened, or abraded. I don't know if it would have mattered, or not, but they always suited me, and did a fine job.

I did finally thoroughly clean the Black stone with some solvent. I'm thinking it might have been carburetor cleaner, but don't remember exactly. At that time, I found out it was really translucent, and not really black. It's a great stone.

What I bought as a Washita (I think in 1974, or 5) is not like the sought after whites, but is a marled purplish color. I wish I could find another, because it cuts as fast as any water stone (which I mainly use the past couple of decades). That stone is about worn all the way through in the middle. I stopped flattening it when it was apparent that I would just end up with no stone left. That might have been 30 years ago.

[Steve Voigt]

Steve
I don't believe warren said one way or the other to abrade or not. I also didn't read it as he was trying to convince anyone, to do anything lol. He literally was just stating his experience.


Nah, Warren and I have been arguing about this for years. Neither will ever convince the other. :p It's nothing personal--he's been to my shop, and we've hung out at LN shows and W'burg a bunch of times. We get along fine, but we both have strong opinions.

[Michael J Evans]

we both have strong opinions.

Seems like most do on this forum.

[Rafael Herrera]

The coarsest Washita I have it's my go to stone for honing. Mostly plane irons and chisels. I only use one side since I fitted it into a box with two endgrain blocks on each end. After several months it went slightly shallow. I reflattened it a few days ago and will try to manage it better, but I was wondering what other people did. I have other washitas, but they're harder than my favorite one.

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