Tell me about Natural Gas and new furnace

[Dave Lehnert]

NOTE:My old service guy who retired 3 years ago put the oil furnace in new. Before he retired he told me to never let anyone tell me I needed a new furnace. I could get any part needed.

Hvac guy out today to do the fall service on my 40 year old oil furnace. He was recommended by my old service guy. I started the conversation how old my furnace was etc.....
He said my Williamson brand furnace, if the motor would go out, I would need a new unit because a new motor could not be had. Something about the frame was different ??
When the oil furnace was put in by my parents, natural gas was not available, but now is available on my street.

Anyway...... I know I am way over due.
My new Hvac guy said the local natural gas co would put the service to my house for free but I had to hook up to it within 6 months. Since it can take up to 6 months for Duke Energy to put in my new gas line, He suggested I get the line in now and replace my 14 year old electric water heater with gas to satisfy the 6 month requirement,then, if the oil furnace goes out it can be replaced with gas. If the oil furnace goes out in the winter, I will have no choice but to replace with oil. Again, Because of the 6 month lead time to get a line installed. I would love to get rid of oil.

I am new to natural gas. Know it can differ by area but what is the minimum charge a month(assuming there is one like my shop electric meter) for gas and would it be a wast to just have a water heater running off of it?
I am very seriously thinking about having the line installed now and having a water heater and furance put in. Just trying to figure out all my options.
The Hvac guy said I would save a ton with a new gas system vs oil. Anyone switch from oil to gas? what was your savings like, 1/4 or 1/2 or ??? of oil.
Should I just get a gas furnace and stay with electric for the water heater? would the minimum gas charge not be worth it in the summer months with only a gas water heater? Can I even cancel my gas service in the summer months to avoid a monthly charge?

Tell my anything about what I am not thinking about.

[roger wiegand]

Here the minimum monthly charge is about $12, I pay that for my shop where the gas heater isn't used in the summer. It's very unlikely you can turn it off for a couple months every year; having them pull and reinstall your meter twice a year would get very old quickly -- but you can certainly ask what the alternatives are. Yes you will save a lot with a new 90+ efficiency gas furnace vs a 40 year old oil burner. I'd' guess half pretty easily.

Note that internal gas piping will be on you, where I live there will be a multi thousand dollar job.

That said, you may well want to consider a heat pump as an alternative. It is a much more efficient solution with regard to energy use, how the operating cost works out will be a function of your local prices. Your electric company may be able to provide you with estimated costs, or if your state has an energy efficiency program they can probably help you with relative local costs. If you haven't already done it, most states have a program to evaluate home energy use and often offer great discounts on insulation and air sealing (in MA you can have $2K of approved insulation and air sealing work every year for free). Air sealing and insulation is by far the most effective (ie return per dollar spent) thing you can do to reduce energy use and cost.

[Curt Harms]

We've had gas since 1995 when we moved into this house. There's no sort of minimum charge. We have gas hot water and gas hot air furnace. We also have a gas stove. One benefit is that we have a source of heat in the event of a power outage. I can't compare gas vs. oil as we've never had oil.

[George Bokros]

That said, you may well want to consider a heat pump as an alternative.

I had a heat pump in Louisville Ky and it sucked. In the winter the warm air supply was cold to the touch if the electric back-up heat was not on, I would never have one again. My brother-inlaw has geothermal and in my opinion it is not any better than a heat pump and I would not have one of those either, same issue as a heat pump.

[Stan Calow]

H
Note that internal gas piping will be on you, where I live there will be a multi thousand dollar job.

I believe this is true and would be a deciding factor for me.

[Jim Becker]

I'm very much a fan of natural gas over oil for heating and hot water. It's been very economical here in our home. It's also my preferred source of heat for cooking. The added bonus is that our whole house generator runs on it so we're never without power for more than about 15-20 seconds.

I agree with your current HVAC contractors advise to get the gas line ordered and installed and then leverage moving your water heating to that format. Consider a tankless unit at the same time...a little more expensive to initially install but very frugal on fuel. Never-ending hot water, too. Then you can plan for moving to a high efficiency gas furnace. Both it and the water heater can be vented with PVC at this point with modern high efficiency units.

I suspect you will enjoy having natural gas to service your home.

[Howard Garner]

We converted 15 years ago from all electric to all gas.
Furnace, Water, Stove, Fire Place and Dryer.
Added a yard light that got me a slightly better rate
Both the wife and I prefer gas for cooking.

Howard Garner

[Alan Rutherford]

...I suspect you will enjoy having natural gas to service your home.

Agreed. I've converted 2 houses from oil to natural gas and had to leave both behind. We're too far from the service lines now but I'd do it in a heartbeat if I could. (Yes, I know about propane but my point is gas - yes, oil - no.) I would not wait for the furnace to fail and risk not having one at the worst possible time. Also consider that the newer systems of any type are far more efficient. We replaced a 25-year-old Carrier heat pump system while it was still working well because we could do it on our terms and we're saving money every month.

[Edit: You asked specific questions I didn't answer. I can't tell you about costs - it was too long ago - but we were happy. Something to consider depending on where you live is your oil tank. If it must be removed or filled, that's a cost item. (We filled one, removed one, and found that the one we removed was the only thing holding back the rust on the pipes of the abandoned lawn sprinkler system. Came out in the morning to find a hole with 300 gallons of water in it.)

We were not entirely happy with the gas hot water in a conventional tank. It would initially be too hot out of the tap and then cool some. There is a fix for this with a recirculation valve but we didn't do it before we moved. A tankless system might not have this problem and in any case, it would not have been an expensive fix.

Having gas in the house made it possible to put a gas log in the fireplace and in addition to the ambiance, it was all the heat the house needed on some days.]

[George Yetka]

I would convert. Not now but wait for your next swing season(between heat and cooling.) the furnace and water heater can be installed by you with nothing more than a screw gun for duct hookup and pipe wrench for piping. I would leave your A-coil/condensor for now that would be where you need someone. Water heaters for NG 40 gallon without a fan are about $450 and a furnace 3500 or so, but this depends on size and efficiency. Not sure what your jurisdiction says about having licensed plumber for everything.

But I would find out where they want the meter and run from that point leaving a tee and valve with a plug in it for anything you could possibly ever want(fireplace/stove/grill/dryer/water heater/and furnace. once its all together stubbed out the side of the house the gas company usually wants to see a pressure test of about 15 psi on your piping.

I wouldnt convert because your service guy says you should I would convert because gas is cheaper at heating things than electric and cleaner than oil. Im a commercial mechanical contractor and I see a lot of service guys try and sell new equipment even go as far as force a reason too on my grandmother. There are honest ones out there but basically if they are a 100 million dollar company they have to sell to stay in business.

Split systems work in the right situation but cant do everything well

[Gary Ragatz]

My new Hvac guy said the local natural gas co would put the service to my house for free but I had to hook up to it within 6 months. Since it can take up to 6 months for Duke Energy to put in my new gas line, He suggested I get the line in now and replace my 14 year old electric water heater with gas to satisfy the 6 month requirement,then, if the oil furnace goes out it can be replaced with gas. If the oil furnace goes out in the winter, I will have no choice but to replace with oil. Again, Because of the 6 month lead time to get a line installed.

I am new to natural gas. Know it can differ by area but what is the minimum charge a month(assuming there is one like my shop electric meter) for gas and would it be a wast to just have a water heater running off of it?

Tell my anything about what I am not thinking about.

I would guess that the 6-month wait for Duke Energy to do its part is a one-time event, to get a line from the street to your home and install a meter. Once you have that line, the rest (inside the house) would be done by plumbers and/or HVAC folks.

Around here, Consumers Energy charges an $11.75 "Customer Charge" monthly. On our last bill, the actual gas charges came to about $13 - that was to run the water heater, gas range, gas grill and probably two or three chilly evenings of furnace use.

Other considerations might be other appliances you might want to hook up to gas. I much prefer our gas range to our old electric, and I love having the grill hooked up to natural gas (no more screwing with propane tanks that run dry at inconvenient times). We still have an electric dryer, which we brought from our previous home, but the laundry room is plumbed for gas, so our next dryer will likely be gas.

[Peter Kelly]

NOTE:My old service guy who retired 3 years ago put the oil furnace in new. Before he retired he told me to never let anyone tell me I needed a new furnace. I could get any part needed.

Hvac guy out today to do the fall service on my 40 year old oil furnace. He was recommended by my old service guy. I started the conversation how old my furnace was etc.....
He said my Williamson brand furnace, if the motor would go out, I would need a new unit because a new motor could not be had. Something about the frame was different ??
When the oil furnace was put in by my parents, natural gas was not available, but now is available on my street.

Anyway...... I know I am way over due.
My new Hvac guy said the local natural gas co would put the service to my house for free but I had to hook up to it within 6 months. Since it can take up to 6 months for Duke Energy to put in my new gas line, He suggested I get the line in now and replace my 14 year old electric water heater with gas to satisfy the 6 month requirement,then, if the oil furnace goes out it can be replaced with gas. If the oil furnace goes out in the winter, I will have no choice but to replace with oil. Again, Because of the 6 month lead time to get a line installed. I would love to get rid of oil.

I am new to natural gas. Know it can differ by area but what is the minimum charge a month(assuming there is one like my shop electric meter) for gas and would it be a wast to just have a water heater running off of it?
I am very seriously thinking about having the line installed now and having a water heater and furance put in. Just trying to figure out all my options.
The Hvac guy said I would save a ton with a new gas system vs oil. Anyone switch from oil to gas? what was your savings like, 1/4 or 1/2 or ??? of oil.
Should I just get a gas furnace and stay with electric for the water heater? would the minimum gas charge not be worth it in the summer months with only a gas water heater? Can I even cancel my gas service in the summer months to avoid a monthly charge?

Tell my anything about what I am not thinking about.I converted my failing Peerless propane furnace and new-ish tank water heater with a tankless Navien combi-boiler two years ago and it's been great. https://www.navieninc.com/residential/combi-boilers

Gas bill in the non-heating months for hot water and cooking is next to nothing. Tiny super-efficient unit allowed me to gain a ton of space back in the mechanical room.

[Bill Dufour]

Paid the gas bill last night so I still had it out. PG+E in California has no meter charge so if you use no gas there is no charge unlike electric and water. PG+E is bankrupt due to causing fires so they must be thinking of every way to charge more.
NG is the cheapest form of heat. Solar may be cheaper if it does not tie up too much investment and if the equipment lasts long enough.
Bill D

[Bruce Wrenn]

Natural gas in a heart beat. At the street in front of our house is a transmission line (1300 psi,) which can be tapped using a "runt regulator." But our house is over 800 feet from street, so it would cost several thousand (approx $10 per foot) run gas line to house. Our rental house (on front lot) is close enough to hook up, which we will do in later part of year when new tenants move in. Our house currently has two heat pumps (2019 install) which replaced two Carrier heat pumps, circa 1980. Power bill dropped by over one third. On original section of house we had heat pump with gas furnace. Because furnace used 110, it was easy to hook up to generator during winter storm outages. Furnace had a plug in cord. Currently, we use propane for cooking, water heating, clothes drying, and emergency heat. At an average of $2.45 a gallon, natural gas is about 50% cheaper. This winter , I am installing a hydronic coil in plentum under furnace to use for supplimental and emergency heat, using HW for heat source.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

I live in an area that has a lot of taxes and added fees - so my bill is a little higher than you folks to the south, but here's my perspective. I replaced an old originally oil burning furnace later converted to natural gas, about 16 years ago.
If I had the choice to make today here is what I would do...
High efficiency gas furnace (but make sure it's properly sized);
Tankless gas water heater (Bosch, Rinnai..);
Run a line to your kitchen for a natural gas stove - there's a reason commercial chefs prefer it;
Run a gas line out to your BBQ, unless you're a wood burner.
Here's the main issues for me - not only is gas cheaper, AND environmentally more appropriate, it's cleaner! No matter how tuned my oil furnace (before conversion) was, my folks had to repaint walls and clean drapes every 2 years. With gas, there's no soot!

[Jim Becker]

I forgot to mention that my neighbor had a gas line installed from the street not long ago. It did take awhile to get it done, but given they need to dig up the street (which is a busy state road), put in a tap on the main, get the line to her home (not super long but "inconvenient" path) and then get the meter installed and connected to the house side of the gas plumbing already installed by an HVAC company...plus various inspections...that time period wasn't surprising. But as has been noted, it's a one-time deal. What IS important is that from the meter in, besure the gas lines are appropriately sized for the FUTURE consumption, not that initial water heater.

[Mike Henderson]

I'd sure go natural gas. In my area natural gas is fairly inexpensive.

Mike

[Jerome Stanek]

Have you asked about a oil to gas conversion kit for your furnace. I put one on my old oil furnace and it worked out really well. I would still have that setup if I didn't fall into a new gas furnace that I got free and installed for for some work I traded for. The work only took me about 10 minutes but saved the plumber $600

[Jim Becker]

Have you asked about a oil to gas conversion kit for your furnace. I put one on my old oil furnace and it worked out really well. I would still have that setup if I didn't fall into a new gas furnace that I got free and installed for for some work I traded for. The work only took me about 10 minutes but saved the plumber $600

The downside to that kind of thing, especially for a 40 year old system, is that it's unlikely that anything close to current efficiency would be obtained. Current high-efficiency gas furnaces are uber stingy with fuel usage and are better for emissions, too.

[Mike Soaper]

I suspect the underground gas pipe to your meter will be plastic with a metal riser pipe to the meter. For inside I like black steel pipe, but bendable flex pipe has also been used as there's less pipe cutting and threading. If it's in the wall i'd be concerned about a nail possibly going thru flex pipe. Check your local codes.

Regarding a gas water heater, make sure you can vent it properly. Some you may need to vent up, others can go thru the side walls as others have said, however the side venting may need to be x" above the ground so it doesn't get blocked by snow, and x" away from windows and doors. Again, check your codes or the install manual.

Similar venting rules apply to the furnace. Higher efficiency models ( 95%?) draw air for combustion thru a pipe from the outside.

My general take on furnaces efficiency, there are 80%ish, 90%ish condensing, 92-95% condensing with outside make up air. The acidic condensate from the exhaust gases will need to be discarded and a small pump (think small aquarium type) may be needed.

Considerations beyond efficiency include multiple stage heat, multiple blower speeds, etc.

fwiw given that you had oil heat in the past and I suspect the air from the registers was nice and toasty, I don't think you would like a heat pump.

[Ronald Blue]

I seriously doubt you could find a oil to gas conversion kit. But as was stated even if you could it would be grossly inefficient. Natural gas without hesitation. Get on the wait list now. I was fortunate in that I only had to wait a couple weeks. I think it cost me about $700 to run the line 300 feet from the street. They plowed it in to the meter. The HVAC guy did the black iron piping. You don't run copper with Natural Gas. They react to each other. I have ran plastic gas line to my shop from the meter with coated pipe ends coming out of the ground. I don't believe I have a minimum charge. In warm weather my bill is only a few dollars. In cold winter it's about $50 at it's worst. That may change once I turn the shop heat on. First winter for it. 97% efficient furnace. My sister in law went with ground source geothermal and she will never save enough to pay the up charge for it.

[Scott Winners]

I am in a similar situation, but different geography than the OP. Has anyone experience with a dual-fuel furnace/ boiler (I have hot water baseboard heat) that could run on either of NG or oil?

I get about 200 million BTUs out of my cord wood stove annually, currently using about 77million BTU of oil annually for domestic hot water and hot water baseboard heat.

If the power goes out at -40dF I have about 12-14 hours to get the generator running and the furnace running off the generator to prevent pipes from freezing away form the wood stove.

Is there a big efficiency loss of I get a dual fuel boiler?

[Jason Roehl]

Our NG bill ranges from about $35 in the summer running just the water heater (turned up to “surface of the sun”) and the gas range, to about $200 for the coldest month (usually January), when we often have several days below 0°F.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Our home had NG in it when we bought it from the previous owners in 1982. Over 20 years ago when the electric water heater died, I had a gas water heater installed and had them plumb in a tee "just in case". 5 years ago when we did a major remodel/bumpout on the kitchen, we used the "just in case tee" to plumb in the gas range in the kitchen.

Over 10 years ago when I built my stand alone woodworking shop, I had them run a NG line to the shop. Keeping it at 64ºF when I am not using it in the winter and then turning it up to 68ºF while I have a cup of coffee before going there to work is extremely convenient in our Idaho winters and very inexpensive. I insulated the walls to R-21 and had R-36-R-40 blown in to the ceiling, 4mill plastic moisture barrier with the electrical boxes sealed has really paid off. I think heating my 30'x24' with 10' ceiling shop added about $3-$4 to our monthly heating NG bill. Yes, I paid more during construction but I did most of the insulation and electrical work. Now retired on a fixed income, it's paid off.

[Dave Lehnert]

Thanks to everyone. Good info.
I did look in to a conversion kit a few years ago and my HVAC guy was not a fan of them.

[Bill Dufour]

A older gas furnace with no moving parts to speak of is about 50% efficient so I suspect a oil furnace would be similar. A modern furnace will be 80-90% efficient for a good price. 95% will cost a step up. Not sure the extra 5% is worth the cost, certainly not in my climate. It ios easy to plumb gas since the pressure is so low. When I replaced the cap with a supply valve for my dryer I did not turn off the gas to the house. I got everything ready removed the cap and put my thumb on the end of the pipe while I applied pipe dope . Then I screwed the valve on and wrenched it tight. gas pressure, after the regulator, is about 6-10 inches of water column. propane is double that. I could not feel any pressure with my thumb.
Bill D.

[Bill Dufour]

Are drip legs still required for gas installations? I put them in but I think they are a hold over from coal gas days. I do not understand the rule against galvanized pipe since all the zinc is on the outside and never touches the gas until there is already a leak. I love the stainless flex connectors for gas.
Bill D.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, drip legs are a normal part of the installation to account for any latent moisture so it doesn't enter the gas fired appliance.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

When we first moved to a drafty old farmhouse. The old oil boiler used $600 in oil just for January and half of february. At 1998 prices. In 2003 we switched to a dual boiler system the old oil fired one in the basement and a wood fired boiler outdoors. We purchased no oil for 12 years. Of course I was spending about 4 hours a week from November to beginning of May cutting wood. (we have 20 acres of woods, so the wood was both close and free. There are still deadfalls I never got to cleaning up. ) Oh I riped walls apart and insulated, pulled up the attic floor and insulated under that. Replaced a few windows and the house was much cozier but went through a lot of wood. IN March 2015 our house burned down from a faulty freezer according to the fire marshall. So we built a new house. 2500 sq feet two story with full basement. the builder put two furnaces in the house. One upstairs and one down stairs and there is no heat in the basement. Propane. We put in out own underground 1,000 gallon tank. We filled the tank the 1st of july in 2016 when we moved into the house. That 1,00 gallon tank more than gets us through a 12 month period. Normally in late June the tank reads about 35% We shop around and order the cheapest. So far we have always been able to fill the tank for less than $600 for the year, including cooking. Major difference with a new properly designed and insulated house. Friends bought a drafty old Victorian style home in town, they are on natural gas, but also have a coal furnace that heats part of the house. Their bill for heat for a year exceeds $3,500. Their house is all fixed up, but was never insulated or had storm windows. My parents have some bizarre, oil fired hot water heater that also heats the house. The thing looks like a regular water heater but is about 40 inches in diameter and about 5 ft tall. Their house was built in 1960, a one level house. Their oil bill is running less than $500 a year for a 800 sq ft house. They also keep their thermostat set at 67 degrees all winter. My Mrs. won't settle for anything less than 70 in winter.

[Anuj Prateek]

Previous house, in Seattle area, we had gas for heating, cooking and water heater. In summers our bill used to be less than $50. In winters, with thermostat set at 68, we saw spikes upto $250.

One more thing I would add, if someday you want to sell your house, gas will be a positive addition. Oil is something not "preferred".

[Dave Lehnert]

I just called the gas company. There is a $35 to $40 minimum monthly charge if I use the gas that month or not. I can have it turned off in the summer months for a reconnect fee of $17.
Any idea the cost difference running a water heater on gas vs electric? A gas water heater will cost me at least $35 a month.

[Rick Potter]

Just general info, that might help someone:

Our house has always had NG. Tract suburban home (1979) with gas heat, water and stove.

Since we moved in, we have added on a couple times, and the house now has three water heaters, two furnaces, BBQ and a gas fireplace insert.

I began to wonder if the old gas main and meter was adequate for more than double it's original capacity. I finally called the gas company to check it out. They said the main was adequate, but installed a new meter with four times the capacity.

Amazingly, it cost me nothing, and they did it within a week.

[Jerome Stanek]

The downside to that kind of thing, especially for a 40 year old system, is that it's unlikely that anything close to current efficiency would be obtained. Current high-efficiency gas furnaces are uber stingy with fuel usage and are better for emissions, too.

My converted oil furnace used less gas then the 90% furnace I have now. I think it just had a better heat exchanger and I could adjust the input on it from 10,000 to 200,000 BTUs i was running it at 30,000 and it handled even the coldest days. I now use an unvented heater for my main heat that is 99% efficient..I sish I never changed

[Bill Dufour]

Is a unvented heater legal in your state? They are not legal here due to carbon monoxide deaths. I would think a unvented heater would be bad for the shop with all the water it pumps into the air. Roughly one pound of water for one pound of fuel burned.
Bil lD

[Jerry Bruette]

I just called the gas company. There is a $35 to $40 minimum monthly charge if I use the gas that month or not. I can have it turned off in the summer months for a reconnect fee of $17.
Any idea the cost difference running a water heater on gas vs electric? A gas water heater will cost me at least $35 a month.

From what I can tell by looking at the Menard's website electric will cost about $35 a month to operate, but may cost more to purchase. Don't forget about maintenance, if you have hard water you may have to replace your elements in the electric unit periodically. Hard water doesn't affect the burner in a gas unit but it should be flushed at least once a year.

Do you have forced air or hot water heat? If you have hot water heat I'd recommend a indirect fired water heater. They cost more but you only buy them once and no maintenance.

[Ronald Blue]

My converted oil furnace used less gas then the 90% furnace I have now. I think it just had a better heat exchanger and I could adjust the input on it from 10,000 to 200,000 BTUs i was running it at 30,000 and it handled even the coldest days. I now use an unvented heater for my main heat that is 99% efficient..I sish I never changed

I'd be finding out what's wrong with your new furnace then. An old conversion furnace would never come close if things are working correctly. Old furnaces worked on a completely different heating model. No blower until the heat exchanger hit a high temperature. I'm thinking 140 or more for some reason. Modern furnaces have almost instantaneous blower activation. The current furnace I have and the previous one in my old home are variable btu output. Run at like half the maximum output and if after so many minutes if the temperature hasn't been attained it kicks in full burner output. My old workshop had an 80% efficient furnace. Still had a conventional flue, a combustion blower as well, but no pilot light.

[Dave Lehnert]

Some more info.

I talked with the HVAC salesman today. Without coming out he gave ballpark figures (said they were worse case prices. likley be cheaper)
He gave me a price range of $6,500 for 80% efficient to high of $10,500 for 98.5% efficient Modulating furnace.
How efficient do i need and do I need Modulating unit?

[Jim Becker]

I don't think we can tell you want to choose, per se, as the decision is a combination of budget and the degree of your interest in using less of the natural gas resources over time as well as reduced emissions. How long you intend to remain in the property and the decisions impact on resale also can factor in. Me...I'd put in the 98.5% system. I was talked into a less efficient 80-85% unit when our addition went on in 2008 and am not happy I made that decision now as this household is philosophically bent toward using as little energy resource as possible...IE practicing what we preach. When the other system in the older portion of our home needed to be replaced in 2011 after all the appliances were destroyed by water due to a sump pump failure during a hurricane, we went 90% with PCV vent and inlet. The cost difference wasn't all that much, either. Same brand (Amana) and same contractor.

[Ronald Blue]

I realize you're ina large city but wow that's high in my opinion. I put in a 97% efficient furnace and central air unit 2 years ago and it was only $8800 and that was the duct work too. (New Construction) I'd get several quotes. That might be the going rate but there isn't a $4000 spread between the units I assure you. Here is a link to HD for reference. As Jim says only you can decide what to get. What size are they recommending? I removed the "H" to hopefully make the link dead.

omedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Forced-Air-Furnaces/Natural-Gas/N-5yc1vZc4lkZ1z10n1h

[Ron Selzer]

Work in maintenance dept with 2 guys who install and service Furnaces and A/C units on the side. Both say to stay away from high efficient furnaces as the maintenance/repair bill will eat up all cost savings plus the higher installed cost. A lot of markup in this field, not uncommon at all to see 6-8k over installed cost on up to 10-16k all depending on contractor.
Shop wisely and make sure who installs it will be there to repair/maintain it.
Ron

[Jerry Bruette]

Work in maintenance dept with 2 guys who install and service Furnaces and A/C units on the side. Both say to stay away from high efficient furnaces as the maintenance/repair bill will eat up all cost savings plus the higher installed cost. A lot of markup in this field, not uncommon at all to see 6-8k over installed cost on up to 10-16k all depending on contractor.
Shop wisely and make sure who installs it will be there to repair/maintain it.
Ron.

HVAC tech at work used to work for independent heating contractor. Told me the same thing. He said the factory trainers told the techs that all that was being saved was fossil fuels. Any money you think you're saving with higher efficiency will be eaten up in repair costs. Check the online reviews of what goes bad (fans) and what the repair costs are. All the reviews I read also warned about improperly trained installers that would void warranties with improper installations.

[Rick Potter]

Jerome,

Please tell me that remark about the UNVENTED natural gas heater is a typo. Being a fireman for a major fire dept. for over 30 years, I removed far too many bodies from situations like this.

[Ronald Blue]

I call BS on the high maintenance costs. After 14 years with the previous home and one service call for a failed ignitor and nothing else where is the high priced maintenance issues? This was a 3 year old home when we purchased it Two years in on my new home and no problems. What causes high costs is incompetent service people who can't diagnose and repair so they throw parts at a problem. My highest gas build are only in the $50 dollar range. We do get sub zero winter temps so it's not because of a mild climate.

[Jerome Stanek]

Jerome,

Please tell me that remark about the UNVENTED natural gas heater is a typo. Being a fireman for a major fire dept. for over 30 years, I removed far too many bodies from situations like this.

The unit I have has a sensor that will shut down the unit if the CO gets to high. There are more deaths here from faulty furnace then unvented heaters. I also have co detectors throughout the house.

[Larry Frank]

About four years ago, I put in a high efficiency furnace and air conditioning with extra duct work. The original duct work was too small to get to certain parts of the house. The bill was about ten grand and worth it. My heating and air conditioning bills went down significantly and the house more comfortable.

[roger wiegand]

Those prices seem reasonable for our region. There's a big bump in both complexity and cost going from the 95% units to the 98.5% units; I'm not sure your money isn't better spent elsewhere in terms of energy conservation. That money will buy a lot of insulation and air sealing.

We did the full deep energy retrofit on our house and our heating bills are only a few hundred dollars a season (in MA) with a 95% furnace.

Repairs on more sophisticated equipment can be steep, and also problematic. The main motor on our Carrier furnace went out just as the warranty ended and the replacement part was over $700. But wait-- they were out of stock on the part in North America and were quoting four months delivery time from China. A few animated conversations with higher levels of management reminded them that there were alternatives such as air freight to keep their customers from freezing and we managed to get the part in about 10 days.

[Jim Becker]

I think we've spent maybe $300 for maintenance costs on the high efficiency system and that was on the AC side, not the heating side...refrigerant leak on the older outside unit that we did not replace when the new inside unit I referred to went in.

I agree with another poster that getting multiple quotes is a good idea. Also note that the same units are often sold under multiple names; the "well known" brand name having a higher cost than the identical unit under the actual manufacturer name, etc. The difference is sometimes a couple grand! Just like the home appliance industry only had a few manufacturers, so is the same with the HVAC industry at this point.

[Mike Soaper]

Jim makes a good point about how things are marketed.

You might want to take a look at this video regarding ac/heatpump brands and mfgrs, but i suspect it also applies to furmaces.

edit: I don't necessarily agree on his energy vs reliability stance

Warning, lots of ads, things may have changed since this video was made

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy46yTbkNhI

[Ronald Blue]

On the subject of the brands and who makes what this seems to be a credible link that gives food for thought.

furnaceprices.ca/posts/who-makes-every-brand-of-furnace-and-air-conditioner/

[Brian Elfert]

Please tell me that remark about the UNVENTED natural gas heater is a typo. Being a fireman for a major fire dept. for over 30 years, I removed far too many bodies from situations like this.

Unvented gas heaters can be very dangerous. One of my friends brought an unvented propane heater into an RV my friends and I were sleeping in. A good chance we would have been dead had I not installed a CO detector.

[Curt Harms]

I think we've spent maybe $300 for maintenance costs on the high efficiency system and that was on the AC side, not the heating side...refrigerant leak on the older outside unit that we did not replace when the new inside unit I referred to went in.

I agree with another poster that getting multiple quotes is a good idea. Also note that the same units are often sold under multiple names; the "well known" brand name having a higher cost than the identical unit under the actual manufacturer name, etc. The difference is sometimes a couple grand! Just like the home appliance industry only had a few manufacturers, so is the same with the HVAC industry at this point.

Hey! Those ads cost money ya know!

:)

[Jerome Stanek]

Unvented gas heaters can be very dangerous. One of my friends brought an unvented propane heater into an RV my friends and I were sleeping in. A good chance we would have been dead had I not installed a CO detector.

Was that heater rated for indoor house use or was it a garage heater

[Rob Luter]

I grew up with an oil fired furnace but we did most of our heating with a fireplace insert. Getting the tank filled was a PITA. I've has gas forced air ever since and wouldn't choose anything else. It's efficient and economical. In my last home I had an old Williamson 5 in 1 furnace that was really inefficient. I replace it with a Trane and saw the difference in the energy bills immediately. I'm about to replace a 1991 vintage furnace (gas) in my current house with a high efficiency version and am looking forward to lower bills.

[Brian Elfert]

Was that heater rated for indoor house use or was it a garage heater

I am pretty sure it was not rated for indoor house use.

[Alex Zeller]

My previous house was converted over from oil to NG just before I sold it. The gas company was converting the oil furnaces to NG for free as well as doing the install. If the old furnace didn't pass a safety inspection they wouldn't do it. They just had a team that was going from one house to the next. Since my furnace was a good 40 years old I didn't bother with the conversion and being spring I didn't have to rush to get a new furnace. They just plumbed the black pipe to the furnace and left it with a shut off and a plug. Since it was forced air the new furnace needed to have duct work done. There's no way I would convert a 40 year old furnace. Besides NG will eat the insides out of an old oil furnace in no time flat (as my neighbors found out). The condensation formed by burning NG is acidic. Modern furnaces designed for NG are built to handle it.

[Tom Bender]

The piping inside the house
Our house was fed with a 1" black iron pipe from the meter to the first branch, which feeds the furnace. Then it was dropped down to 3/4" That split into two 1/2" lines, one for the water heater and one for the stove. All that worked fine. When I added a generator it called for a 1" feed, but it dropped to 1/2" inside the generator case so 1" was going to be a bit of overkill. I extended the original 1" to the generator and all is well. In replacing most of my gas piping I found some sloppy work so I am confident that it is now good.

About those high efficiency furnaces
They do save energy and if your house uses a lot of heat worth the much higher initial cost. Due to condensation they typically last only about half as long as traditional furnaces. My house is very frugal and the heat bill is about $500 / year so saving 10% is going to pay for a new furnace in about a thousand years.

When you lose electricity
It's cold and unpleasant but with a gas furnace you can take a hot shower. And even in summer a warm shower is nice.

[Jim Becker]

T\
When you lose electricity
It's cold and unpleasant but with a gas furnace you can take a hot shower. And even in summer a warm shower is nice.

Only if there's electricity to run the electronics for the furnace and your water heater is also gas... ;) This is just one of the many reasons we have a whole house generator here. We have water, septic, heat (gas, but electric blower), hot water (gas tankless, but electronics), cooking (gas but requires electric to ignite), lights, communications, etc.

[Tom Bender]

oops i misspoke, if you have a gas water heater you can have a hot shower and wash dishes in hot water, if you have water.

[Jim Becker]

oops i misspoke, if you have a gas water heater you can have a hot shower and wash dishes in hot water, if you have water.

Pretty much all of the modern gear requires electricity to ignite. There are no pilots and many units do not permit manually lighting with a flame because of the need for temperature management...which is electronic.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I think Tom is emphasizing benefits of a traditional 'storage tank' water heater (vs tankless/continuous). Regardless of the heating source, with a storage tank you have 40, 50, 80(?) gallons of hot water. The 'hot' might not last more than 8-10hrs, but February showers are a bit more comfortable while it does.:cool:

Also, some older homes may still have water heaters with a standing pilot, so as long as you have water pressure, you can have hot water. Same with the old in-floor gas heaters, they work off natural convection, so you can stay toasty.

[Ron Selzer]

Had a replacement hot water tank that needed electricity to run. Supposed to save energy, after replacing the power vent damper twice, each time 4-6 days cold showers. Then it leaked on the floor, I searched hard and found one that doesn't need electric, also went to a 50 gallon tank. Third shower in the morning was cold half way thru with the other tank.
Ron

[Jim Becker]

No power and my water doesn't flow anyway...but folks with municipal water/sewer could certainly take advantage of hot water already in a tank type setup until it cools.

[Brian Elfert]

Had a replacement hot water tank that needed electricity to run. Supposed to save energy, after replacing the power vent damper twice, each time 4-6 days cold showers. Then it leaked on the floor, I searched hard and found one that doesn't need electric, also went to a 50 gallon tank. Third shower in the morning was cold half way thru with the other tank.

Minnesota has required the powered vent water heaters on new construction since 2000. I had one in my previous house and in the current house. 12 years in the previous house and six years in this house without any water heater issues. I'm not sure what the point of the blower is. The electric ignition is nice as no gas wasted by pilot light and never a need to relight the pilot light. If power goes out I have no water anyhow due to well.

My current house had a massive remodel done when I bought it and converted water heater from electric to gas. I ended up with a powered blower water heater so it could vent through the wall through PVC. There was no place to put a metal vent to the roof for a conventional water heater. I prefer the powered blower type anyhow.

I turned my water heater off for safety reasons while using contact cement and forgot to turn the water heater back on. I still had a normal hot shower the next morning at the normal temperature setting even though the water heater had been off all night. I only remembered it was off when I didn't hear it running after my shower.

[Tom Bender]

Replaced my water heater last year. No problem finding a piloted 40 gallon unit on the shelf. No electricity needed, but an electronic pilot could be supported with a small UPS. A fan would need a slightly larger one.

[Larry Frank]

We have no city water or sewer and power outages were really troubling. I had a Generac whole house natural gas generator installed two years ago and it works great. I was surprised that the installed cost was not too bad.

[Jim Becker]

We have no city water or sewer and power outages were really troubling. I had a Generac whole house natural gas generator installed two years ago and it works great. I was surprised that the installed cost was not too bad.
Same here, Larry. For the same reasons. As far as I'm concerned, it's already paid for itself over the five years it's been in place.

[Brian Elfert]

Derailing the thread a bit, but I also have a whole house generator because I have a well and a septic pump. My generator doesn't work right now because I have a bad gas shutoff valve and the guy who hooked up the gas made it hard to fix.

I have had my generator four or five years and not a single power outage other than a few momentary blips in power. A friend who is an electrician recommended I just get rid of it since my power is so stable. It seems silly to remove a generator that just needs a minor repair. I also had a whole house generator at my previous house and I had a three day outage once so having power was nice, especially for the A/C.

[Jim Becker]

The minute you remove it, the power will drop, Brian. ;) I agree with YOUR point of view...silly to eliminate something like that merely because of a poor plumbing component. You never know when the weather can do something nasty and not having water/septic is a bummer. That was the primary reason we bought ours as I mentioned previously.

[Larry Frank]

I was very happy with the installation of my generator. It is a very clean looking professional job.

[Jim Matthews]

Late to the party, again.

After 5 years of faultless operation, we were forced to scrap our generator.

A new subdivision dropped my Natural gas line pressure below starting requirements for my GE 12kw unit. A larger gas line was suggested (cost to me, $7k).

Since we already had a transfer switch, we removed the generator and installed a decommissioned EV battery as our backup (7kWh).

With our furnace, we'll pump and refrigerator running we get about 10 hours of backup power.

$10,500 total outlay, no moving parts. Silent operation.

Three outages in 4 years - it just works.

Mine looks a lot like this one.

http://www.mtvsolar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/LGBackup.jpg

[Curt Harms]

I think Tom is emphasizing benefits of a traditional 'storage tank' water heater (vs tankless/continuous). Regardless of the heating source, with a storage tank you have 40, 50, 80(?) gallons of hot water. The 'hot' might not last more than 8-10hrs, but February showers are a bit more comfortable while it does.:cool:

Also, some older homes may still have water heaters with a standing pilot, so as long as you have water pressure, you can have hot water. Same with the old in-floor gas heaters, they work off natural convection, so you can stay toasty.

We replaced the original water heater with a new one about 10 years ago. It has a pilot light and I see that as an advantage in the event of an extended power outage during cold weather.

[Jim Becker]

Late to the party, again.

After 5 years of faultless operation, we were forced to scrap our generator.

A new subdivision dropped my Natural gas line pressure below starting requirements for my GE 12kw unit. A larger gas line was suggested (cost to me, $7k).

Seems to me that this should be the gas supplier's problem if their service suddenly degraded. You didn't add anything new here that increased your demand...

While it's great you were able to move to the battery system, that $10K you put out for that was more than I paid for my 22K generator including installation, etc. And it will run for days if necessary. (and it's necessary here because no power means no water and no septic, not to mention all the other things that use electricity)

[Jim Matthews]

Seems to me that this should be the gas supplier's problem if their service suddenly degraded. You didn't add anything new here that increased your demand...



That was my first, unenforceable choice.

They suggested escalating my complaint to Beacon Hill. Since my family wuzznt here to waive goodbye to the Mayflower...

[Bill George]

Standby generators can be switched over to propane or gasoline.

Not a lot is saved by removing the pilot light on a water heater, as the heat from the pilot flame goes to heat the water :)

Replace a 40 year old oil with gas is a no brainer. It will pay for itself in just a couple years.

Heat pumps have changed. Here in Iowa when I worked on them back in the 70s and 80s they were terrible. I replaced the old gas furnace on my 4 seasons back porch with a ultra high efficiency mini split heat pump. Wow dropped our gas and electric bill to unbelievable levels and its comfortable unlike the old ones!!

Oh I worked in the commercial and industrial HVAC/R field for over 30 years...

[Brian Elfert]

The minute you remove it, the power will drop, Brian. ;) I agree with YOUR point of view...silly to eliminate something like that merely because of a poor plumbing component. You never know when the weather can do something nasty and not having water/septic is a bummer. That was the primary reason we bought ours as I mentioned previously.

My electrician friend claims my generator install is against code and I should remove it due to that and the fact I haven't had a power outage since I installed it four or five years. He says it is too close to the house for code even though I checked code on required clearances before install and it passed inspection. His reasoning has nothing to do with the bad gas valve. I have the valve, but I need to take the plumbing all apart to install the valve.

[Jim Becker]

My electrician friend claims my generator install is against code and I should remove it due to that and the fact I haven't had a power outage since I installed it four or five years. He says it is too close to the house for code even though I checked code on required clearances before install and it passed inspection. His reasoning has nothing to do with the bad gas valve. I have the valve, but I need to take the plumbing all apart to install the valve.
Mine is close to the house...it's about a foot and a half from the wall on the 250 year old stone portion of our home. It was installed after a permit was pulled and the location approved by the township. The required electrical inspection was also completed to close out the permit with the township. It sounds like you also had a permit, so I would say that your friend is, um...mistaken. ;)

[Brian Elfert]

Mine is close to the house...it's about a foot and a half from the wall on the 250 year old stone portion of our home. It was installed after a permit was pulled and the location approved by the township. The required electrical inspection was also completed to close out the permit with the township. It sounds like you also had a permit, so I would say that your friend is, um...mistaken. ;)

Mine is in front of the gas and electrical meters so more clearance is required. He was claiming the generator is too close to meter. As I said I checked the code and it passed inspection although inspectors have been known to pass stuff that is a clear violation.

[Bill Dufour]

My gas company sent me a letter and said their remote reading smart meter had to have the bush pruned away from it so there was something like 24" in front and to the sides.
Bil lD

[Jim Becker]

My gas company sent me a letter and said their remote reading smart meter had to have the bush pruned away from it so there was something like 24" in front and to the sides.
Bil lD

They still spot check them from time to time so they need clear access/view of the meters to do that.