Replacing a SCMS

[Julie Moriarty]

I'll be replacing an old Bosch 10" SCMS. The brake is shot. Accuracy of cut is getting fiddly. And it's a dust storm, despite having a Rousseau 5000 dust hood connected to the dust collector. Going to 12" would be nice, though not necessary. An accurate laser would be nice, too. This will be used strictly in the shop for furniture, cabinetry, boat parts and fine woodworking.

I've eliminated the Kapex. Dewalt has some good reviews by contractors but seems more of a jobsite saw. The new Bosch are supposed to have great dust collection but no laser. But the Makita LS1219L really has my interest.

Any comments?
Thanks

[Frank Pratt]

I don't think there is any such thing as an accurate laser, not for furniture quality work anyway. The edge of the line is just too fuzzy. I've heard that the shadow line indicators are better, but I've never used one.

For a given level of saw, a non-slider will always be more accurate than a slider, so if a 12" non-slider will give the capacity you need, that would be better and cheaper.

[Melvin Feng]

I recently bought the 12" Delta Cruzer, 2nd generation with the shadow line. I haven't used it for any fine detail work, but it has met all my expectations, and it was square out of the box for me. I do like the glide mechanism, and it allows me to not need nearly as much depth for the saw. I can't give any long term experience, or furniture building with it, but I do expect it to last, though I may try a new blade on it in the future (nothing is wrong with the current one, but I can rarely leave well enough alone, and I like trying new tools!).

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Julie,

A couple years ago I bought the 12" slider Dewalt with the laser that illuminates both sides of the blade simultaneously to replace a 10" Delta slider that I was never happy with it's repeatability. The Dewalt has been rock solid! I can change angles and go back to "0" and it's dead on. Periodically I check it for accuracy but with the old Delta, I had to reset it to "0" every time. Initially I wanted a Hitachi but the one I saw locally had too much slop in the slider mechanism for me.

If you can, see them in person and try the mechanisms for yourself.

Good luck.

[Mark e Kessler]

I have the LS1019 it' pretty good for a chop saw once I adjusted the rails to be coplaner, I actually forgot there was a laser on it as they are useless for anything but construction work which is all I use it for anyways. The stock blade and other tooth configs is pretty good I tested everything but a Forrest and it was the best. also fwiw, and scms is not a furniture level cutting machine but will be adequate for most not working to the maximum level of perfection get the smallest blade version for the best results.






I'll be replacing an old Bosch 10" SCMS. The brake is shot. Accuracy of cut is getting fiddly. And it's a dust storm, despite having a Rousseau 5000 dust hood connected to the dust collector. Going to 12" would be nice, though not necessary. An accurate laser would be nice, too. This will be used strictly in the shop for furniture, cabinetry, boat parts and fine woodworking.

I've eliminated the Kapex. Dewalt has some good reviews by contractors but seems more of a jobsite saw. The new Bosch are supposed to have great dust collection but no laser. But the Makita LS1219L really has my interest.

Any comments?
Thanks

[ChrisA Edwards]

I have the Dewalt 780 and have been very happy with it.

If I'm cutting contractor grade materials, I use the desalt blade.

For woodworking type stuff, I use a Forrest WoodWorker Ii blade.

I did build a foldaway dust hood, which only works for 90 degree cuts, but it gets 99% of the dust from the cut.

I also don't have a dedicated space for it, so i made an extension fence, that I can use on a flat surface with the saw.

Here you can see both in use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnrYB73XpNc

[Mark Bolton]

My $0.02 is there is pretty much no consumer/construction grade SCMS that will ever perform to anyones hopes with regards to dust pickup. Its just a nightmare you have to deal with. After that, for course work a laser may be nice but once your accustomed to your saw the laser will be more of a nuisance than a benefit.

Bosch glide was always high on my list and have used one many times (a friends) and its a more than capable saw but I have no direct hard core use with the saw.

All the 12" saws feel underpowered to me which is often times due to softs start but also because the manufacturer is trying for a balance of capacity and portability.

I personally feel that you have to understand that these saws are not precision machines and even the good ones wont be great for long or across a wide range (which youve found out).

I would be buying based on envelope/operating size, and everything else is something you will work around.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Julie, I have the 1019, non laser saw. It's a good machine, however I prefer the old 1013 because of the larger table and more power. Agree with the previous remarks about the laser not really being useful. I do have a couple Dewalts with the shadow line, and it is far more accurate. Dust collection is best on the Dewalt FlexVolt 12" slider. It's actually pretty good. Expensive saw, but a good one. I still do prefer the Makita over the Dewalts though.

I do disagree with Mark a little on the long term accuracy. Some of them are better than others. My old 1013 is 20 something years old and has been used 2 to 5 days a week for it's entire life. It's still shockingly accurate. Makes our other saws look bad really. I do not let many other people use it though, so it does get babied a little but it does still go to job sites periodically. I know of an old Hitachi that is similar.

[Jim Dwight]

I use a Hitachi 12 inch non-slider and my track saw for anything beyond it's capacity. All the sliders seem to have significant play in their mechanism to me. I suspect that people get accurate cuts due to good technique but I am also pretty sure if you lean on them a bit you can cause an inaccurate cut. Hard to do that with a non slider. I worry that variation in wood density might have an effect similar to pushing the saw a bit sideways. My track saw will only cut up to 2 inches deep and my CMS crosscut to about 8 inches but that nearly always works.

[Julie Moriarty]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I kinda knew what I was hoping for wasn't out there but I had to ask.

I saw one video from a millwork guy who replaced a 10" Makita with their new 12" and he was pretty impressed. The only Makita tool I own is a power planer I bought over 30 years ago. But I became a Dewalt fan, mostly because that's what I always saw on the job.

The laser, however, grabbed my attention as my arms are too short to read the newspaper anymore. ;) The millwork guy showed lining up and cutting by the laser and it was balls on accurate, as Mona Lisa Vito would say.

Thanks again for all the help. I hope I can make up my mind before I again forget that blade brake isn't working anymore.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I worry that variation in wood density might have an effect similar to pushing the saw a bit sideways.

If that happens, you have a bad blade.

[Rich Aldrich]

I have the Dewalt 779 and put an LED shadow line kit on it. I don’t know if they are still available but I got the saw for $325 because they were replacing it with the 780. The LED kit was about $50 and took about an hour to install. It works great for me. The only compliant I have is the saw jumps a little when you hit the trigger. That takes some time to get comfortable with.

[Mark Bolton]

I do disagree with Mark a little on the long term accuracy. Some of them are better than others.

My point was kinda more so speaking to someone intermittently using a saw. I think you know that with about 4 cuts on virtually any saw you or I could probably influence the saw from the handle to fudge a stain grade wide miter by perhaps a half degree or or more or even steer a bit of undercut when needed without ever adjusting the miter or bevel settings. That was my point about once you get accustomed to your saw, while some may have more nuisance nuance than others, they can be used to your advantage if you have that aptitude. No different than anyone, but having cut so much over the years I or anyone could probably get pretty clean results out of a saw that behaved like a wet noodle once you got your head around it.

But if your looking for a dead perfect, rigidity, power, dust pickup, accuracy, on down the line, out of most any consumer grade saw (right up to the Kapex) your going to be left short in multiple areas if not slightly on them all. Its just the nature of a tool that is trying to find power, accuracy, and portability. Kinda like the "pick one"... fast, cheap, or right, you cant have the triple threat.

I had a 10" bosch dual rail slider for years that was my go-to saw because I could use the flexure in the saw to my advantage. I could cheat a miter by a bit when needed, I could even cove a miter slightly when needed with a bit of influence on the handle. A fault became one of my most used features of the saw.

[Tom M King]

Dust collection is easy with a pull cut, and impossible with a push cut. I don't ever remember doing a push cut with mine. I first discovered this after using my setup for over a decade. I had a friend use it, and dust was covering everything. He was doing a push cut because "that's the way you're supposed to use one". Dust was going everywhere except into the box around the tool. With a pull cut, the dust comes out of the bottom of the cut, and is directed back into the DC box.

I also don't remember ever having to clamp anything down to cut it, and don't think I've ever locked the blade up in a cut. I can see where not doing that might bring up some binding problems with push cuts.

This after decades of using a radial arm saw before anyone ever made a power miter saw that I liked.

[Julie Moriarty]

I have the Dewalt 779 and put an LED shadow line kit on it. I don’t know if they are still available but I got the saw for $325 because they were replacing it with the 780. The LED kit was about $50 and took about an hour to install. It works great for me. The only compliant I have is the saw jumps a little when you hit the trigger. That takes some time to get comfortable with.

In that video by the millwork guy, he said he first bought the DW780 but didn't like it because, like you said, the saw jumped on him when he pulled the trigger. He said the Makita had a soft start which he described as it pulling up.

I'm leaning heavily toward the Makita 12". About the only thing I don't like is it's made in China. I was thinking it would be Japan. Seems everything is made in China today.

Acme has a $650 combo deal where they include a $200 portable stand. I could probably sell the stand for $100. The stand might also help sell my old Bosch.

[Julie Moriarty]

Dust collection is easy with a pull cut, and impossible with a push cut..

I can't imagine doing a pull cut with anything more than maybe 1/4" thick. I've had some boards bind on my and if that was a pull cut I'd be in trouble.

[Tom M King]

The idea of a push cut scares me. The first motion is down, and then through. I do 4x's all the time, including angles. I don't remember ever having one, of anything, bind up. The guy that was using my saw bound a cut up. That's when I went to look at what he was doing. I don't want any of my saws binding up.

[johnny means]

Dust collection is easy with a pull cut, and impossible with a push cut. I don't ever remember doing a push cut with mine. I first discovered this after using my setup for over a decade. I had a friend use it, and dust was covering everything. He was doing a push cut because "that's the way you're supposed to use one". Dust was going everywhere except into the box around the tool. With a pull cut, the dust comes out of the bottom of the cut, and is directed back into the DC box.

I also don't remember ever having to clamp anything down to cut it, and don't think I've ever locked the blade up in a cut. I can see where not doing that might bring up some binding problems with push cuts.

This after decades of using a radial arm saw before anyone ever made a power miter saw that I liked.

Of course, the RAS blade cannot climb up and out of the kerf. I wouldn't let anyone in my shop do pull cuts with a SCMS. Pushing is actually how they are designed to be used.

[Tom M King]

I understand that. No one else uses mine, but me, and that's the way it will stay. Mine is a Dewalt 708. I can't remember how old it is (something over 15 years old, and many thousands of cuts), but it still cuts dead true because I believe the only time it's ever locked up is when that friend was using it.

I can use it inside a finished house, and not get any dust on anything. That's not doing push cuts though. Pull cuts throw the dust through this PVC pipe.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

My point was kinda more so speaking to someone intermittently using a saw. I think you know that with about 4 cuts on virtually any saw you or I could probably influence the saw from the handle to fudge a stain grade wide miter by perhaps a half degree or or more or even steer a bit of undercut when needed without ever adjusting the miter or bevel settings. That was my point about once you get accustomed to your saw, while some may have more nuisance nuance than others, they can be used to your advantage if you have that aptitude. No different than anyone, but having cut so much over the years I or anyone could probably get pretty clean results out of a saw that behaved like a wet noodle once you got your head around it.

But if your looking for a dead perfect, rigidity, power, dust pickup, accuracy, on down the line, out of most any consumer grade saw (right up to the Kapex) your going to be left short in multiple areas if not slightly on them all. Its just the nature of a tool that is trying to find power, accuracy, and portability. Kinda like the "pick one"... fast, cheap, or right, you cant have the triple threat.

I had a 10" bosch dual rail slider for years that was my go-to saw because I could use the flexure in the saw to my advantage. I could cheat a miter by a bit when needed, I could even cove a miter slightly when needed with a bit of influence on the handle. A fault became one of my most used features of the saw.

That's true Mark. Even my old trusty Makita has some wiggle room. Using the detents while swinging towards 0 is different by a tiny fraction of a degree than swinging away from 0. Like you said, it's actually useful to know that when doing trim in rooms that are never perfectly square or have flat walls.

It's also true that some people are just incapable of getting a good cut on any saw. I'm not aware of any human operated saws are completely idiot proof. Recently had a guy cut a pile of bookshelf girts +/- 1/4", using a saw and stop bolted to a flatbed trailer. He got a career change to site janitor.

[Bill McNiel]

Julie,
I have had the DeWalt 780 for approximately 7 years. Its primary function has been sizing material and carpentry tasks such as decks, etc. For the last 10 months or so it has been onsite for framing, siding, and trim on a bungalow home I've been building. I spent a bunch of time when I first bought it setting it up, getting everything as close to dead on as possible, actually not all that difficult but time consuming. It has held it settings very well, actually much better than I expected. It has proven to be so accurate that I didn't have to move my Delta chop saw out of its home in the shop for the intricate trim work.

The shadow line is really nice, much better than the laser line saws I have used. I have never experienced and issues with a "hard" start. Only downside is the depth required behind the saw. For construction stuff I use a Freud blade saving the Chopmaster 2 for fine work (I really love the Chopmaster blades for these type saws).

Regards - Bill

[Mark Bolton]

He got a career change to site janitor.

Welcome to my daily grind.

[Randall J Cox]

I've had and used a DeWalt 12" non slider, single bevel chop saw for going on 15 years now (on my second one, gave one to my son for a big project). They have both been dead on from day one. I've had people tell me this can't be. Don't care what anyone says, know how accurate my cuts have been on them for many years. Totally happy with them. Randy PS Know you asked about Makita, have no experience with any others....

[Dave Cav]

About a year and a half ago I sold my 12" Rockwell RAS when I got a Minimax slider. Last January I got a DeWalt DWS779 from Amazon for stuff I don't want to do on the slider. I used it for a shed construction project and some other odds and ends, but mostly it sits under one of my shop carts out of the way. I've always considered SCMS to be a construction tool, not something to be used for precision joinery. The DWS779 works fine, was cost effective, and has a lot of adjustments. It'll probably last me the rest of my woodworking career, but I don't use it much.

[Bernie Kopfer]

Two things. One, a properly adjusted Laser is a godsend once you use it a lot and understand its limitations. That is why I do not have the Bosch. Would like to try the shadow line type sometime. Two, the hold down ( at least on my Kapex) keeps wood from shifting particularly when doing any sort of angled cut. A angled push cut will move the wood ever so slightly, perhaps that is why some WW's say the SMCS is inaccurate.

[Frank Pratt]

A angled push cut will move the wood ever so slightly, perhaps that is why some WW's say the SMCS is inaccurate.

I don't think so, it's no different than with a non-slider. The source of inaccuracy with a slider is the side to side flex that is inherent with having the sliding mechanism. Even the best of them will flex with a little sideways pressure. The range from pretty good to terrible. I've never seen one that didn't have some flex. Even a cheap non-slider will be more rigid. But knowing its limitations is the key to getting good results with one.

[Bruce Thompson]

I made the same switch a year ago. My Bosch 10" on its Dewalt extension stand took up too much space in my shop (with the big roll-up door to the driveway which, oddly enough, makes my wife think it's a place to park her car!), so I needed something that could sit against the wall.

The Bosch 12" Sliding Glide Compound Miter Saw filled the bill perfectly. For short pieces as wide as 12" I can cut without moving the saw from its 54"-wide "parking spot" between workbench and bandsaw. Accuracy is first rate (with Forrest Chopmaster blade) and the glide action is effortless and smooth as glass - no more grinding sensation that I was used to from sawdust on the extension tubes of the old saw. Bosch has retained the great feature of all controls being at the front, but improved the accuracy of the miter angle indicator. The handle is horizontal for comfortable grip and a thumb release safety is setup for both right and left hands. I don't miss the lack of laser, as visibility is excellent for directly lining up blade to pencil mark from both sides of the line. If you need absolutely clean vertical cuts, you can easily make a zero clearance plate and save the factory one for when you do bevel cuts. Changing them out is easy and fairly quick.

Dust control is mediocre, so I added a shroud onto the rolling stand I built and connected it to my Mini-Gorilla dust control.

The only downside is that there is no adjustment if the blade motion is not quite straight - i.e., the blade can remain parallel to the cut line, but drift to one side or the other in its glide path. I bought mine at Home Depot where I was able to open boxes and test the glide. Two out of 4 machines drifted, so I bought one of the ones that was true.

[Julie Moriarty]

I ended up buying the Makita 1219. I spent most of the day taking the Bosch out, cleaning up and making mods to the miter cabinet. As part of this process, I removed the Rousseau dust hood for the time being and installed a Forrest Chopmaster blade, anxious to see how everything worked.

I just finished two test cuts on old Florida pine (very dense pine due to its resin content.) The first thing that struck me was how easy it was to operate. It seemed almost effortless. The soft start probably added to that feeling. No jerking at all.

The next thing I noticed was how quiet it was. Even with ear protection, the Bosch was screaming. The Makita seemed almost quiet, like comparing my Craftsman shop vac to my Festool CT26.

So, how about dust collection? The Bosch was like walking into a dust storm, and that's with the dust hood. With no dust hood, I expected to be gagging with the Makita. But dust collection was surprisingly efficient. It still needs to be tested with something more substantial but so far this has been a surprisingly pleasant experience.

[Joe Hendershott]

I also have the ls1019 and use it with a Festool collector. It does a pretty good job of getting 70% or more of everything. I have a shroud behind from a previous DeWalt but do not use it as the vac does a good enough job for me.

[Julie Moriarty]

I'm not so delighted with the miter saw anymore. The blade brake is already failing.

Sent an email to Acme.

[William Hodge]

When I saw this post, I considered buying a Makita LS 1219. It has a big dust collection port in line with the dust spray. Getting the pivot works off to the side in favor of room for dust collection looks great.

The motor break failure may be dust on the contacts. It may be something else, too.

I have a Makita saw that stopped working in the warranty period. I blew it out, and brought it to the Experts. It had needed to be blown out.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm not so delighted with the miter saw anymore. The blade brake is already failing.

Sent an email to Acme.

That's not supposed to happen. I bet it is filth in the switch, but that is not something that you should have to deal with especially on a new saw. My old 1013 did it when it was a few years old, I took the switch apart and blew it out, has worked perfectly ever since.

[Julie Moriarty]

When I saw this post, I considered buying a Makita LS 1219. It has a big dust collection port in line with the dust spray. Getting the pivot works off to the side in favor of room for dust collection looks great.

The motor break failure may be dust on the contacts. It may be something else, too.

I have a Makita saw that stopped working in the warranty period. I blew it out, and brought it to the Experts. It had needed to be blown out.


That's not supposed to happen. I bet it is filth in the switch, but that is not something that you should have to deal with especially on a new saw. My old 1013 did it when it was a few years old, I took the switch apart and blew it out, has worked perfectly ever since.

I received a reply from Acme this morning. They are sending a new saw out immediately. Along with it will be instructions and paid shipping for returning the defective saw.

As for dirt or dust so quickly causing this problem, I agree this should have never happened in such a short time. I ran that Bosch for close to 15 years before the blade brake started to fail. If Acme had given me the choice, I would have asked for the Bosch 12".

Fingers crossed this isn't an ongoing problem.