Critique my dovetails? First attempt at a double

[Jason Buresh]

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This is my first attempt at a double dovetail. Although not perfect, i am happy for a first try. I used a marking gauge and knife for the layout lines, and a dovetail gauge and veritas square for layout. I used a small japanese pull saw for the initial cuts and a coping saw for large waste removal.

One thing i would do differently is to make a relief cut with a chisel to the knife wall instead of relying on the marking lines. I need to find a thinner blade for the coping saw too.

Anyone have any other suggestions?

[Robert Engel]

I'd say you're off to a pretty darn good start!!!

Yes, you need to do a relief cut if the coping saw line isn't withing 1/8" especially in softwoods.

Dovetails are 75% sawing and 25% chiselling.

I like the Pegasus blades.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Those look pretty good! Another thing you can do to help get clean baselines is to go back after you’ve sawn and deepen your lines with a knife and a square before you use a chisel to make the relief cuts.

i also try to err very slightly on the side of leaving the pins and tails proud so I don’t have to plane the whole side down to get the joint flush.

[ken hatch]

Japanese saws and coping saws do not play together well, one's kirf is too thin and the other's blade is too thick. They can be made to work with multiple cuts or you can use a fret saw or the 12" Bow saw from TFWW both blades fit in a Japanese saw kirf.

Or use a western back saw.

ken

[Jason Buresh]

Ken,

I am going to invest in a fret saw. I am planning on getting the knew concepts 5".

I never thought about the different kerfs. Thanks for pointing that out.

[ken hatch]

Ken,

I am going to invest in a fret saw. I am planning on getting the knew concepts 5".

I never thought about the different kerfs. Thanks for pointing that out.


Jason,

As a fret saw the Knew Concepts is a good one, I think there is a better option. I've expressed it often on this board and that is the TFWW 12" bow saw, much faster cuts as good control and the blade will fit a Japanese saw kert. The cost is so close as to be a wash. Glad I could help.

ken

P.S. The TFWW Bow saw blades do not break like fret saw blades

[Jason Buresh]

Ken,

I googled it and i am assuming you are referring to the Gramercy 12" bow saw?

I like the traditional look. The knew concepts looks very modern.

I am going to strongly consider the biw saw

[mike stenson]

The kits are available currently btw :) The plans etc are downloadable.

[Jason Buresh]

Oh yeah! I think I would rather build than buy. Not because I am cheap, but because I like making things, i would think the hardware would be easy enough to make with some brass round stock, and then carve some handles and epoxy them in.

I could buy the blades and string and the rest i think i could fabricate myself

[Robert Hazelwood]

What exactly are you guys referring to with relief cuts? If we're talking about chiseling to the baseline, I might have 1/16" or so of material left by the coping saw. I chop that in several slices so that the last slice is removing only a tiny amount, which avoids pushing the chisel back into the baseline and leaves a very clean cut. Is that what you mean?

I think those DTs are looking pretty good. Just keep doing a few more and concentrate on getting the baselines pristine. You should go ahead and glue it together then plane it all flush and see if some of the smaller gaps disappear, they often do.

[Jason Buresh]

Robert,

Thanks for the reply. My mistake on these was i did not make a trench on the shoulder wall and relied on my knife line. If I would have taken that little wedge out and created a knife wall i think it may have turned out better. I will have to try one with that technique.

I got a little to close to the knife line with the coping saw on one the pin board too.

I didn't glue this ine up yet but I will and plane it to see what happens.

[bill epstein]

[QUOTE= You should go ahead and glue it together then plane it all flush and see if some of the smaller gaps disappear, they often do.[/QUOTE]

Sanding dust, the Bondo of the Dovetailer

[Robert Hazelwood]

Robert,

Thanks for the reply. My mistake on these was i did not make a trench on the shoulder wall and relied on my knife line. If I would have taken that little wedge out and created a knife wall i think it may have turned out better. I will have to try one with that technique.

I got a little to close to the knife line with the coping saw on one the pin board too.

I didn't glue this ine up yet but I will and plane it to see what happens.

Ah, you are talking about sawing the shoulders on the ends of the tailboard. Agree, the knife wall would be a good idea.

[Jim Koepke]

Those look good for a first try. Mine didn't look that good over years of trying.

+1 on making them a bit proud. After one set of proud tails on a drawer many of my dovetails have been made to be proud. This is a project made for holding remotes on the sofa:

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Don't make them this proud if you want to keep them flush with the other surfaces.

jtk

[Andrew Hughes]

They look pretty good to me too. I like clamp a small 1 inch x 1 inch square scrap to my baseline to guide that last cut.
On soft woods I use the guide to slice the wood fibers downward. Instead of chopping and hoping they don’t crush.
Good Luck

[David Eisenhauer]

The thing is Jason, those dovetails (as is) will hold forever and only have some cosmetic irregularities showing. We all want to do better in whatever we attempt, so I understand where you are coming from, but those dovetails are nothing to look down on. You can use a coping saw with the thinner kerf Japanese saw by inserting the coping saw (or initiating) cut with a "sawing" motion in the air just above the vertical saw cut kerf so that the saw is "sawing" as it is lowered through the kerf to the point where you want to make the turn to start making the baseline cut. The coping saw will just scuff the thinner sides of the vertical saw cut as you lower it and does not harm the saw cut at all. A thinner bladed fret saw or the Grammercy saw eliminates that need, but I tend to start "sawing" before I reach the bottom of the vertical kerf anyway as a habit even though I now use a fret saw.

[Mel Fulks]

They are all that's needed. I've seen fine 18th and early 19th century pieces that were much like yours. While the rest of
the work showed no flaw. The shop master knew what he had to do ,and what he could let his helper do.

[Bill Carey]

Those are very nice "first timers". As Bill said, nothing that a little bondo can't fix. One thing I found very helpful was to video my cutting stroke, a trick I learned from a world champion billiard player, and it never failed to get rid of the yipps. Much like shooting pool, (IMHO) the shoulder the elbow and the wrist all need to be in the same plane for the cut at hand, and stay there thru the cutting action. I noticed that as I was starting the cut my elbow was in tight, but then I let it flare out a bit as I got to it and the saw would waver (can't think of a different term) during the rest of the cut. Since I fixed that, guides are a thing of the past. Keep making them - they are fun to do.

[Rick Erickson]

Ah, you’re hooked now! DTs are addicting to say the least. That’s a great start. All good suggestion in the posts. Consistency is key to getting better. Pick a method and rehearse it over and over. They will become second nature after some time.

[Jim Koepke]

You can use a coping saw with the thinner kerf Japanese saw by inserting the coping saw (or initiating) cut with a "sawing" motion in the air just above the vertical saw cut kerf so that the saw is "sawing" as it is lowered through the kerf to the point where you want to make the turn to start making the baseline cut.

One of my tricks is to start with the top of the coping or fret saw and pushing it forward while lowering it in the cut. The teeth should be set to cut on the pull stroke. There is almost no resistance to the blade with a push stroke.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

When you finish the box, keep an offcut.

Using coarse sandpaper, sift dust from the off cut into the same glue used for the joinery.

Mix this onto a paste and apply to the gaps before the finish of your choice. Put some tape over the endgrain to keep those faces clean.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/home/interior-projects/how-to/a19355/how-to-fill-gaps-in-woodworking-joints/

[Jason Buresh]

Jim,

I really like that chamfered look you added to yours. Thats a nice little detail.

[Jason Buresh]

David, thanks for tip! I will give that a shot!

I suppose the little imperfections are proof i cut them by hand and not on a router table. And with time will come perfection

[Jason Buresh]

Thank you everyone for the advice so far! All great suggestions.

The little imperfections dont bother me, but i am always looking to improve. I am sure time and practice will make me better, but i appreciate all the tips.

I picked up some lumber and printed a template last night for the Gramercy bow saw. I am going to start that project soon. Will post some pictures of the build process and we'll see how it goes

[Derek Cohen]

Thank you everyone for the advice so far! All great suggestions.

The little imperfections dont bother me, but i am always looking to improve. I am sure time and practice will make me better, but i appreciate all the tips.

I picked up some lumber and printed a template last night for the Gramercy bow saw. I am going to start that project soon. Will post some pictures of the build process and we'll see how it goes

Jason, your first attempt was better than mine. I do have the advantage, however, in practicing for a few decades. :)

There are a few articles on my website that you may wish to read. They will lift your game.

Through dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

Half-blind dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

Through mitred dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable2.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HarlequinRoundingTheDovetails_html_589dd7f5.jpg

Houndstooth dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench4.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/BuidingaBench4_html_m6fac05e5.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pete Michelinie]

Nice first DT's! My pointer would be to suggest aiming to saw to the line instead of leaving excess material and chiseling to the line. Getting a good fit off the saw is a thing of beauty, and I believe the geometry of the dovetail is more consistent than if you go in there and futz with a chisel.

If you do pins first and use a pencil to mark your tails you will quickly learn how close to that pencil line you can safely cut to get a good fit. It's different for different density woods. Doing tails first means you can gang up multiple boards to saw at once (good for case pieces with similar sized drawers), but then you have to use a knife to mark the pin. I use an old hacksaw blade sharpened into a double ended knife- each end is beveled in the opposite way for marking a left side and a right side.

Also another tip- don't spend money on the expensive bright red coping saw if you don't have to. I wrote a FWW tips and tricks a few years back about modifying a jeweler's saw for dovetail waste removal. Just cut a slot into the clamp blocks on the saw with a 2/0 saw blade 90* to the surface. If you cut it just the right depth this will allow you to install a 2/0 blade perpendicular to the normal direction that they are installed. The 2/0 fret saw blades are narrow enough to be able to be dropped down into a western saw kerf (25 thou?) and so you can just cut the waste straight across without having to turn in the cut.

Look forward to seeing the future dovetails.


Pete

[Jason Buresh]

Derek,

Thank you for posting that. The blue tape trick is genius and i will be giving it a try

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

I really like that chamfered look you added to yours. Thats a nice little detail.

It was done using a few chisels, here is a close up of one in use:

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That is most likely my 1" Witherby being used.

jtk

[Dennis Droege]

That ain't bad for a first shot. There's something sort of mystical about joinery; the more one does it, subtle details of technique and perspective become conscious and usable.
I haven't looked at the responses yet (I will now), but I like your work.