Table saw blade noise?

[Michael J Evans]

Hi all,
This has been bothering me for years now, but my blade on my table saw is rubbing, grinding, vibrating (idk) somewhere / somehow against my zero clearance insert. The sound disappears as soon as I take the ZCI off, but as soon as I put it on it comes back. Basically it sounds like the blades is scraping the ZCI, but I can't visually see any traces of that happening. The ZCI fits well and the saw has minimal vibration so I don't think that it's the ZCI itself vibrating. I've fully raised and lowered the blade many times while the saw was running thinking that maybe the blade had a slight wobble and would cut a new groove, but that didn't help either.

The saw is a old Craftsman 113.

You guys have any ideas? Its driving me nuts.

Thanks Michael

[Jim Becker]

Could be run-out; could be unbalanced blade; could be a tooth or three that's not ground identically to the others or has been damaged; etc. Could also be bearings on the arbor that causes noise.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Are you able to put pressure on the plate safely to see if it is just the plate vibrating?

[Bruce Volden]

Check to make sure saw blade isn't slightly tilted.
My old Craftsman table saw was notorious for this.

Bruce

[Michael J Evans]

Could be run-out; could be unbalanced blade; could be a tooth or three that's not ground identically to the others or has been damaged; etc. Could also be bearings on the arbor that causes noise.

Jim,
Maybe my thinking is wrong, but any if those things were happening wouldnt the blade eventually cut a new groove in the ZCI. Or do you think it's so minimal it just barely scrapes?

Blade is a freud 30t rip (I think). I did have it sharpened once. Wonder if the sharpening service could've done something to it?

[Michael J Evans]

Are you able to put pressure on the plate safely to see if it is just the plate vibrating?

Yea, I'll check that tonight

[Kyle Iwamoto]

What brand blade? Perhaps you need a "good" blade? Thin kerfs may flutter. Full kerfs may be a bit more stable.

[Richard Coers]

Add a blade stabilizer washer and see what happens.

[Michael J Evans]

What brand blade? Perhaps you need a "good" blade? Thin kerfs may flutter. Full kerfs may be a bit more stable.

Freud pro 30t rip I Believe ( not at home to check)

[Michael J Evans]

Add a blade stabilizer washer and see what happens.

Never heard of such a thing. I'll check that out.

[Bill White]

Just a thought. Some blades will create a sound while using a zero clearance plate. That's why blades (most) don't have the old style holes in them.

[Erik Loza]

Is the ZCI aluminum? Could be just a harmonic. I assume it fits tightly.

Erik

[Michael J Evans]

Is the ZCI aluminum? Could be just a harmonic. I assume it fits tightly.

Erik

No it's a phenolic one and fits very snug. Thanks though

[Erik Loza]

No it's a phenolic one and fits very snug. Thanks though

OK. What if you enlarged the groove just a little more by hand? To make sure there is 100% no contact between the blade and the insert.

Erik

[Michael J Evans]

OK. What if you enlarged the groove just a little more by hand? To make sure there is 100% no contact between the blade and the insert.

Erik

That's a good idea and likely what I'll just end up doing. Thanks again

[John Goodin]

Try a different blade. If it goes away it is the blade. If it continues it is the saw.

[Keith Saunders]

No it's a phenolic one and fits very snug. Thanks though


Gday from Downunder

My 2c worth; can you make a ZCI from something you have laying around.
Then see if that makes any sort of similar noise for comparison.

That's about all you can expect for 2c. :D

Cheers for Downunder
Keith

[Lee Schierer]

How high is your blade raised when it makes the noise? Is the arbor flange hitting the underside of your insert?

[Osvaldo Cristo]

My suggestion is to change your blade and maintain your ZCP. If noise persists, probably it is your plate. If noise disappears, probably there is something wrong with your blade.

[Tom Bender]

OK let's dig into the acoustics. 30 teeth x 60 revolutions per second + 1800 hertz. Can someone with musical talent say what note that is? On what instrument can it be played? Since we are considering air being pinched by the side of the teeth a wind instrument might be close, maybe a kazoo? Since it is happening on both sides of the tooth,,,two kazoo. (kazwoo?)

Anyway, opening the gap by a few thousandths should lower the volume.

[Brian Tymchak]

OK. What if you enlarged the groove just a little more by hand? To make sure there is 100% no contact between the blade and the insert.

Erik

I had the same problem when I changed to a phenolic insert. I never truly figured out the issue but I concluded that it was the teeth raking against the slot sides in the ZCI. I also use thin kerf blades. I cut the ZCI with Forrest WWII combo blade although I now use Freud Industrial blades almost exclusively. I figured the combo might have a bit larger set on the teeth than a rip blade. However, it still made the high pitch raking sound when I put the rip blade on.

I finally got fed up enough to spend almost an hour with coarse sand paper to open up the slot just a tiny fraction. Problem solved. That phenolic insert is hard and it will take a while.

Edit: I just realized it would have been a LOT easier to set the blade angle +/- 0.1* and "trim" the slot that way.

[John K Jordan]

Try a different blade. If it goes away it is the blade. If it continues it is the saw.

Yes, try a different blade. Make sure the blade is tracking properly and is tensioned correctly. You can turn the blade by hand with a dial indicator against the side at the table and at the wheels to look for oddities. If you don't have a dial indicator you can find one for cheap on Amazon. Very useful in the shop.

JKJ

[Ronald Blue]

Did you find the cause of the noise? I was going to suggest that since the insert is phenolic to take a black marker and coat the inside edge all the way around the insert and then see if you see a contact point. It will rub it off. The opening the slot up would do it also. This would tell you where to enlarge it.

[Michael J Evans]

Try a different blade. If it goes away it is the blade. If it continues it is the saw.

I may give that a shot. Just need to find a cheap TK blade.

[Michael J Evans]

How high is your blade raised when it makes the noise? Is the arbor flange hitting the underside of your insert?

Lee basically any height. The sound stops once the ZCI is removed

[Michael J Evans]

Did you find the cause of the noise? I was going to suggest that since the insert is phenolic to take a black marker and coat the inside edge all the way around the insert and then see if you see a contact point. It will rub it off. The opening the slot up would do it also. This would tell you where to enlarge it.

Ron,
Not yet. Going to mess with it tonight, spending this whole weekend doing yard chores I put off all summer. Now it has to be done with the rain coming.

[Michael J Evans]

Did some more investigation. First started by turning the belt by hand. Noticed that at a certain spot the tooth would rub (just barely) and make the scraping noise. Noticed it happened on both the right and left side, but more pronounced on the right side. Continued when I rose the blade. Turned the saw on and slowing opened the zsi It opened more on the left side (thats the way it tilts), the right side I opened up very slightly to as the stop doesn't stop at exactly 90 like it's supposed to. Long of the short I still hear the scraping but it's not as pronounced. If I took of the 90 stop, I could open it to the right slightly more and that should probably fix it. Interestingly enough I believe the blade has some wobble per se. When I watched it running I noticed right at the front of the inert that the blade almost had a slight wobble to it. Before I started all this I removed the ZCI and noticed the scraping like others suggested. Another thing I noted is the blade doesn't stay perfectly 90 at all heights. When I went to lock it at 90 I had the blade raised approx 1.5", I then raised the blade and noticed the top half of the blade moves slightly right, taking it out of square.

[John K Jordan]

...Another thing I noted is the blade doesn't stay perfectly 90 at all heights. When I went to lock it at 90 I had the blade raised approx 1.5", I then raised the blade and noticed the top half of the blade moves slightly right, taking it out of square.

There is an adjustment on many bandsaws to align the guide post so it moves in a straight path from top to bottom. On mine I adjusted the post to center the blade in the guides with them cranked all the way up and all the way down. If you have bearing guides be sure none of the bearings are pressing on and deflecting the blade at any point, while adjusting and when running. Also, I adjust the saw until the blade is centered on the crowns of both the upper and lower wheel.

If there is wobble and the tires are worn they may need to be replaced. A warped or slightly bent blade can make the blade wobble, as can buildup on the blade or tires from cutting sappy wood.

[glenn bradley]

I vote for wind noise.