Jointer/Planer Question

[Izzy Charo]

I have an 8 inch DJ-20 jointer (with Byrd head) that I've had for 30 years, and works well. I also have the Grizzly 15 inch planer with spiral head, which after much time devoted to adjustments, now also works well. But I'd love a wider jointer, and the MiniMax FS41E 16 inch J/P looks attractive, and could replace both of those machines. For those who have that machine (or the comparable Felder version) my question is whether the tables stay co-planer as you switch back/forth between jointer and planer functions? I spent a long afternoon getting my DJ-20 tables co-planer (or as close as I could get them) I would not want to be doing that frequently on a combination machine, if that is the trade-off for having a wider jointer...
Thanks!
Izzy

[Erik Loza]

Izzy, I've sold plenty of both Euro brands you mentioned. In my experience, unless the owner is abusive or does things like drag/move the machine around by the jointer tables, they will not go out of alignment or need further adjustment. It's one of the reasons you spend bigger bucks: So you're not having to mess with the machine all the time. Hope this helps,

Erik

[Phil Gaudio]

I have the FS41e and the table do stay in alignment. I do make sure that there is no saw dust on the contact points for the infeed/outfeed tables each time I set them down. Seems to work for me. I have not moved the machine since I planted it in its current position two years ago.

[Jim Becker]

What Erik said...these are all fine machines and are designed to stay dead on over time. I've had to do ZERO adjustment to my J/P purchased in the mid-2000s. And that was "right out of the crate", as it were.

[Phil Gaudio]

I am fairly confident that you won't have to worry about the J/P staying in adjustment. Getting it in alignment in the first place is a whole different issue. I believe that there is a significant chance that the alignment "out of the crate" may not be up to your standards: it wasn't for me.

[Rod Wolfy]

I've never had a problem on mine switching back and forth. I have a 16" Hammer J/P on order, with spiral head. Had a 12" Felder J/P and a Jet 12" J/P in the past.

[John TenEyck]

I have the slightly smaller FS-35. It's from the 1980's; I bought it used about 4 years. I almost completely disassembled it to get it down into my shop. It went back together w/o any problems and the tables were and remain perfectly coplaner within my ability to measure. As mentioned above, just make sure that the mating surfaces are free of sawdust when closing the tables.

John

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes the tables stay coplanar, I've had mine 12 years now, no issues.............Rod.

[Curt Harms]

Izzy, I've sold plenty of both Euro brands you mentioned. In my experience, unless the owner is abusive or does things like drag/move the machine around by the jointer tables, they will not go out of alignment or need further adjustment. It's one of the reasons you spend bigger bucks: So you're not having to mess with the machine all the time. Hope this helps,

Erik

This is why I never cared for mounting casters directly to the machine or most mobile bases. How else am I supposed to move the machine without some sort of handles? This was my solution:
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The downside is that I can't 'spin' the machine, I can turn it but it takes room. I never have to touch the machine to move it though.

[Mark e Kessler]

I have a Felder AD941 (16") and before that a mm fs350 for about 30 years. Yes they stay co-planer, with one caveat when tightening the handles you need to hit about the same "tightness" every time (at least on the AD941). I have found on the AD941 if I happen to crank down on the outfeed it will pull it a little lower same goes if to light (would be a little high) it doesn't happen as much now that I know its sweet spot but when it does its no big deal, just loosen or tighten after the first cut is made and its dead on - no measuring device needed.

BTW I get zero snipe on the AD941 (jointing or planing) after a rocky start it is a fantastic machine and will only be replaced when I have room for separates.

[Jim Becker]

This is why I never cared for mounting casters directly to the machine or most mobile bases. How else am I supposed to move the machine without some sort of handles?

My SCM/MiniMax J/P has two integrated casters and a "Johnson bar" that both lifts and swivels the machine. The bar is the handle. There's no touching the machine bed. It's not the most elegant method relative to movement for sure to get something placed exactly (I very rarely move my machine and have marked the floor for the exact position it has to be if I do move it out for maintenance, etc.) But the system works. The commercial base I use for my lathe (again very rarely) works the same way.

[Wes Grass]

I can measure a difference on my 741 if I move it, but haven't noticed it makes any difference. As heavy as the base is, I'm sure it flexes under the weight of the tables.

Awful out of flat floor in my garage. If it rocks when I move it, I move it around until it doesn't. At one point I had circled the front pads with a sharpie, but they've long since worn away.

I've used the 700 with it on 3 points. Sometimes it just has to be positioned 'there' for clearance. Other than rocking to another corner as the table goes to the other end of travel, it doesn't seem to effect anything.

[Mark e Kessler]

I very much doubt the base is flexing, why wouldn't you use a wedge... there is also a bolt on one corner of a foot that could be used but if you are moving it around a wedge os easier


I can measure a difference on my 741 if I move it, but haven't noticed it makes any difference. As heavy as the base is, I'm sure it flexes under the weight of the tables.

Awful out of flat floor in my garage. If it rocks when I move it, I move it around until it doesn't. At one point I had circled the front pads with a sharpie, but they've long since worn away.

I've used the 700 with it on 3 points. Sometimes it just has to be positioned 'there' for clearance. Other than rocking to another corner as the table goes to the other end of travel, it doesn't seem to effect anything.

[Erik Loza]

This is why I never cared for mounting casters directly to the machine or most mobile bases. How else am I supposed to move the machine without some sort of handles?...

I've not personally had an issue with caster-type mobility kits on J/P's (a million customers with Portmate/HTC-type dollies). The worry is more when trying to move the machine off the pallet or pushing it across a concrete floor by itself. I guess if you had casters and were worried about it, you could always drill a couple of holes in the cabinet and mount some generic handle(s) on there. That's pretty much how the Felder AD's are. Just thinking out loud.

Erik

[Mark e Kessler]

i had a portamate on an ad941 with 4 swiveling wheels it was a nightmare to move around but in the end i kept banging my ankle on the wheel which is why I took it off. Narrow pallet jack is they way to go or the Felder mobility kit.
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I've not personally had an issue with caster-type mobility kits on J/P's (a million customers with Portmate/HTC-type dollies). The worry is more when trying to move the machine off the pallet or pushing it across a concrete floor by itself. I guess if you had casters and were worried about it, you could always drill a couple of holes in the cabinet and mount some generic handle(s) on there. That's pretty much how the Felder AD's are. Just thinking out loud.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

...Narrow pallet jack is they way to go or the Felder mobility kit...

I agree but interestingly, 99% of customers would rather buy the mobility kit than buy a pallet jack.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

I agree but interestingly, 99% of customers would rather buy the mobility kit than buy a pallet jack.


I've often thought about getting a pallet jack...and what's kept me from doing it is...space to store it and infrequent use. The two times I needed to move the slider (when new and when I cut it down) I rented one, however.

[Mark e Kessler]

I've often thought about getting a pallet jack...and what's kept me from doing it is...space to store it and infrequent use. The two times I needed to move the slider (when new and when I cut it down) I rented one, however.

Jim, I don’t know about SCM but with the Felder j/p hardly any space
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[Wes Grass]

Re a wedge, I'm lazy;-) And there has to be a gap to start with, and you gotta guess how hard to drive it in ...

Or you're thinking under the base itself, not the foot?

I've measured a difference between the tables when I've moved it. Don't remember numbers, not huge though. Surface gauge and test indicator. While tweaking the tables in, not a daily activity. I'm not *quite* that far gone ... yet.

Maybe noticeable with a good straight edge? Maybe.

[Curt Harms]

I've not personally had an issue with caster-type mobility kits on J/P's (a million customers with Portmate/HTC-type dollies). The worry is more when trying to move the machine off the pallet or pushing it across a concrete floor by itself. I guess if you had casters and were worried about it, you could always drill a couple of holes in the cabinet and mount some generic handle(s) on there. That's pretty much how the Felder AD's are. Just thinking out loud.

Erik

Handles would certainly work but the jointer beds are SO convenient. :o

[Tom Bain]

I agree but interestingly, 99% of customers would rather buy the mobility kit than buy a pallet jack.

Erik

I don’t get that either. My narrow pallet jack is one of the best purchases I’ve ever made. To “store it”, I left my drum sander on a pallet and just slide the pallet jack underneath.

[Alan Lightstone]

I was very happy I bought a narrow pallet jack when I moved into my workshop. I've used it to fine tune position of tools.

I just built a riser block for shelving in my garage, with a space underneath so I can store the pallet jack. I don't think anyone has noticed it since.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I don’t know about SCM but with the Felder j/p hardly any space
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Mark, that's a good idea, but it wouldn't work in my shop because of the shelving I have on "that wall" behind the J/P. This is really more about "my shop" than anything else. I'd really have to keep a pallet jack in the one remaining garage bay. I could probably do that, but it would be really tight, especially in the winter when I have both the ZTR and the Kubota tractor tucked in there. And with only two uses of a pallet jack since the mid 2000s, I don't think a buy would be justified. Maybe for the next shop. LOL

[Andy D Jones]

With a good tool/equipment rental place only a mile or so away, renting an engine lift for a day is barely over $40. I used it to get my 850+ pound A3-41 off its shipping pallet, and onto its PM3550 mobile base.

First, I had to jack up each end of the pallet to create enough clearance for the lift's lower arms with casters to roll under the shipping pallet. I used the 2x4 crate frame lumber to make four sturdy pedestals to securely support the pallet up off the ground.

I probably should have taken a picture of the rigging, but I started by placing the midpoint of my 4" wide by 20' long tow strap over the outfeed table. I then passed the two ends down on either side of the outfeed table, under the cabinet to the infeed side, and then up, around their respective side of the infeed table. I then fastened the two end loops to the midpoint of the strap with a large shackle, which I also fastened to the lift's chain.

I had to slide the strap around a little to adjust the lift point side-side and fore-aft, after a few short test lifts showed me where the balance point would be. When lifted, the shackle was about a foot above the jointer tables.

I removed the 4 sheet metal covers over the front and back jointer table adjustment points before any lifting, to make sure they would not be bent by the strap. I also removed the two screws that fasten the magnetic starter relay box to the frame, so it could slide out of the way, for the same reason. Basically, any point the straps passed over that didn't look heavy enough to withstand the strap's pressure, I removed or adjusted to avoid the straps. I also removed the mounting arm for the euro-guard.

I can afford to rent that lift several times before I'd be ahead buying one (especially one as heavy duty as the rental lift), and storing one would reduce my already small shop space even further.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[David Publicover]

Thanks for this post Andy.
I’ve got a FS-30 coming soon and have been planning how to get it on the Portamate mobile base I have for it. I hadn’t considered that I may be able to rent a lift so I’ll be making some calls Monday. My primary plan involves my neighbour’s tractor that has a set of forks on it but I like to have a backup plan as well. The lifting method is duly noted.
I hope my setup goes as smoothly!

[Izzy Charo]

Thanks for the replies....sounds like staying co-planer is not an issue with these high-quality machines....good to know!

[Andy D Jones]

Thanks for this post Andy.
I’ve got a FS-30 coming soon and have been planning how to get it on the Portamate mobile base I have for it. I hadn’t considered that I may be able to rent a lift so I’ll be making some calls Monday. My primary plan involves my neighbour’s tractor that has a set of forks on it but I like to have a backup plan as well. The lifting method is duly noted.
I hope my setup goes as smoothly!

You're very welcome, David.

One thing about the lift: It uses a hydraulic cylinder, that only retracts when you unscrew the relief valve. Some of them are very touchy, and a very slight twist can send a heavy load down very quickly. I was expecting this might happen, and practiced the release during those first short lifts (only a couple inches off the pallet) to find the balance point for the sling.

I was glad I had done that when I actually set it down on the mobile base.

Let us know how your lift goes!

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[David Publicover]

You're very welcome, David.

One thing about the lift: It uses a hydraulic cylinder, that only retracts when you unscrew the relief valve. Some of them are very touchy, and a very slight twist can send a heavy load down very quickly. I was expecting this might happen, and practiced the release during those first short lifts (only a couple inches off the pallet) to find the balance point for the sling.

I was glad I had done that when I actually set it down on the mobile base.

Let us know how your lift goes!

-- Andy - Arlington TX

Thanks! I’ve never used a lift so that’s good information to know. I’m hoping I’ll get it in a couple weeks but it’s hard to know for sure this year as there are many complicating factors.
Cheers!
David

[Rod Wolfy]

I agree but interestingly, 99% of customers would rather buy the mobility kit than buy a pallet jack.

Erik

Erik,

Which Porta Mate mobility kit do they buy for the Hammer A3-41? It moves on four axis vs. just the two that the mobility kit uses with the bar?

Rod

[Curt Harms]

My SCM/MiniMax J/P has two integrated casters and a "Johnson bar" that both lifts and swivels the machine. The bar is the handle. There's no touching the machine bed. It's not the most elegant method relative to movement for sure to get something placed exactly (I very rarely move my machine and have marked the floor for the exact position it has to be if I do move it out for maintenance, etc.) But the system works. The commercial base I use for my lathe (again very rarely) works the same way.

It depends on how the machine sits relative to the wall. I'm familiar with the 'Johnson bar' system. I have the short end of the machine against the wall so the lifting/steering bar needs to be on the other short end. The 'Johnson bar' system is optimum if the machine's long side sits against a wall.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, that's true, Curt...parallel to the wall is pretty much required with enough space in that direction to accommodate both the bar and the manuvering. If I had to move my JP with any frequency, I'd want a different solution. But for folks who place the machine, leave it in that spot and only move it for maintenance that requires accessing the back, the solution works just fine.

[Erik Loza]

Erik,

Which Porta Mate mobility kit do they buy for the Hammer A3-41? It moves on four axis vs. just the two that the mobility kit uses with the bar?

Rod

Rod, I'm almost positive it's the 3500. There are some Youtube videos about it. Yes, it moves like a true dolly.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

...parallel to the wall is pretty much required with enough space in that direction to accommodate both the bar and the manuvering...

The reason for that is that the mfr. (doesn't matter, Italian or Austrian) wants the machine resting on it's frame when not being wheeled around for maximum stability. Obviously, if the customer's floor is not level and they had a dolly-type mobility kit, the machine could rock during use. That being said, pretty much any of these already have holes in the frame that could accept some type of caster. if I wanted wheels at every corner and budget was not a concern, I would put Zambus or Great Lakes leveling casters on it. A universal dolly-type base would be the budget option but like Jim mentions, if a mobility solution already comes with the machine, save yourself the $$$.

Erik

[Warren Lake]

I can move suff faster on pipes than the pallet jack as its a wide one, i dont have a narrow pallet jack so have to do creative blocking. If the pipes are long I can slide the machine sideways on the pipes easily as well. Ive always dragged it around or lifted from the tables but its old and heavier than stuff is made now.

[Andy D Jones]

Rod, I'm almost positive it's the 3500. There are some Youtube videos about it. Yes, it moves like a true dolly.

Erik

I use a PM-3550 base on mine, with all four wheels swiveling.

The 3500 is identical, but has two swivel and two non-swivel wheels, each of which can be assembled on any corner. Naturally, the two swivels need to be on the same edge.

Both models have the same weight capacity (1500 lbs, IIRC).

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Jim Becker]

The reason for that is that the mfr. (doesn't matter, Italian or Austrian) wants the machine resting on it's frame when not being wheeled around for maximum stability. Obviously, if the customer's floor is not level and they had a dolly-type mobility kit, the machine could rock during use.

Yes, I neglected to mention that I like that my J/P is sitting with the cabinet directly on the floor. It. Doesn't. Move.

[David Publicover]

You're very welcome, David.

One thing about the lift: It uses a hydraulic cylinder, that only retracts when you unscrew the relief valve. Some of them are very touchy, and a very slight twist can send a heavy load down very quickly. I was expecting this might happen, and practiced the release during those first short lifts (only a couple inches off the pallet) to find the balance point for the sling.

I was glad I had done that when I actually set it down on the mobile base.

Let us know how your lift goes!

-- Andy - Arlington TX

I thought I’d give you the update.
I borrowed a friends truck and rented an engine lift this morning to finally get my FS-30 set up. It was no problem to put the lift together and raise the J/P off the pallet and on to Portamate PM-3500. It was inexpensive to rent and very controlled and easy to handle alone. I’m glad you gave me the heads up on the relief valve as it was sensitive.
I used lifting hooks on the knockouts and found it stable and the hooks didn’t mar the finish. There were plugs for the holes included. I was able to pick up hooks cheaply ($2.99) and had lots of suitable line.
The PM-3500 seems easy enough to maneuver in my small shop and looks good as well! It seems very heavy duty.
I’ll put some knives in the J/P this afternoon and fire it up but wanted to say thanks for the tips.
Best regards,
David

[Erik Loza]

...I’ll put some knives in the J/P this afternoon and fire it up but wanted to say thanks for the tips...

David, I assume you got a Tersa machine? If so, there will already be knives in there. Chromium steel, which is the "budget" knife. Pick up some HSS if you can.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

David, I assume you got a Tersa machine? If so, there will already be knives in there. Chromium steel, which is the "budget" knife. Pick up some HSS if you can.

Erik

I agree with Erik about moving to the HSS or M2 knives going forward. I get really good wear from them. Even paying shipping, https://tersaknives.com/ has been the best pricing for me.

[David Publicover]

David, I assume you got a Tersa machine? If so, there will already be knives in there. Chromium steel, which is the "budget" knife. Pick up some HSS if you can.

Erik


Hi Eric,
I did go with Tersa. My machine came with the Chromium steel knives but they were not installed. I had pre-ordered some HSS and M2 knives and put in the HSS blades. I’ll save the chromium steel ones for softer woods.
I’m obviously just starting out with using the machine but so far I’m very pleased. It is a good fit for my small space and it has done a great job on the first few pieces I’ve put through it.
David

[David Publicover]

I agree with Erik about moving to the HSS or M2 knives going forward. I get really good wear from them. Even paying shipping, https://tersaknives.com/ has been the best pricing for me.

Hi Jim,
I did order from Tersaknives.com based in part on your earlier recommendation. I’m happy to support a small Canadian business although they are far from local lol! The service was friendly and shipping was very fast. I’ll be giving them my business in the future.
David

[Jim Becker]

Yes, they are worthy of support like so many small businesses that have a nice niche. But yea...they definitely are not local to you! LOL

[Mike Wilkins]

I have the Hammer A3-41 J/P machine and have never had a problem with table alignment when changing from one function to another. Having a quality machine is a plus.

[Andy D Jones]

I thought I’d give you the update.
I borrowed a friends truck and rented an engine lift this morning to finally get my FS-30 set up. It was no problem to put the lift together and raise the J/P off the pallet and on to Portamate PM-3500. It was inexpensive to rent and very controlled and easy to handle alone. I’m glad you gave me the heads up on the relief valve as it was sensitive.
I used lifting hooks on the knockouts and found it stable and the hooks didn’t mar the finish. There were plugs for the holes included. I was able to pick up hooks cheaply ($2.99) and had lots of suitable line.
The PM-3500 seems easy enough to maneuver in my small shop and looks good as well! It seems very heavy duty.
I’ll put some knives in the J/P this afternoon and fire it up but wanted to say thanks for the tips.
Best regards,
David

Knowing how everything is in my shop now, I probably could have gotten away with a PM-3500 just fine, instead of the PM-3550 I purchased (but it was on sale.) The Bora Portamate PM-35xx series are plenty heavy duty, at least for my needs.

Glad the info was helpful, and all went well!

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Robert Mayer]

Unless you have space constraints I see no reason to get two different machines. While its true the changeover only takes a minute and a half or so, its still a pain. Its a real pain when you convert it all over only to realize you forgot to do one board and have to go all the way back. Also bending way over to use the planer kinda sucks. I prefer planers that can be raised and lowered on the fly, without have an unlock lever on it. I also am not a fan of the lightweight aluminum fences most combo machines have.

[Mark e Kessler]

I agree for the most part, as soon as I have enough space I will have separates again there are also other reasons as most combos don’t have proper pressure bars, chip breakers ect, however it’s really not a huge pain if it’s a hobby or even part time. I don’t get the bending down part, I don’t need to do that and don’t even notice it also I do not have to lock a lever but I have a powered table which doesn’t require it and it’s a snap to repeat a dimension exactly. The alum fence doesn’t bother me, most folks that complain about that (not saying that is you) do not have the right technique and are applying too much pressure to the fence causing deflection which doesn’t cause an issue in itself but can make the machine feel cheap but i get what you mean coming from using big old iron.

That said I would not want a combo without powered table, dro and a 4 post planer table, i had an FS350 for about 30 years in my home shop and i can tell you the the powered table makes all the difference in the world for a combo.





Unless you have space constraints I see no reason to get two different machines. While its true the changeover only takes a minute and a half or so, its still a pain. Its a real pain when you convert it all over only to realize you forgot to do one board and have to go all the way back. Also bending way over to use the planer kinda sucks. I prefer planers that can be raised and lowered on the fly, without have an unlock lever on it. I also am not a fan of the lightweight aluminum fences most combo machines have.