Cap tightness

[Richard Hutchings]

I was working some hard maple with an old Stanley #4 the other day and was trying to keep the cap iron close, 1/32", for smoothing. I had done everything to insure there was no gaps between the blade and breaker but I was still getting shavings stuck between the irons. I came to the conclusion that the cap iron wasn't tight enough. Things started going better after tightening it much tighter than I usually do. Is this normal?

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Perhaps the cap is too torqued down and is deforming? More likely, though, may be that the iron - cap mating surface is not optimal. There are many tutorials on this site for setting up a cap iron and I'm no expert so I'm not giving any advice.

[Richard Hutchings]

I think I should have said the lever cap as I see some calling the breaker iron a cap iron. Guess I need to study up my terminology.

[Jim Koepke]

I think I should have said the lever cap as I see some calling the breaker iron a cap iron. Guess I need to study up my terminology.

The lever cap presses down on the chip breaker (cap iron). Tightening up the screw holding the lever cap down will cause it to press harder on the chip breaker. This may correct the problem for a while but could introduce other problems.

You may have a perfectly mating chip breaker with a crevice at the leading edge catching shavings. The shaving needs to be able to flow, without obstruction, up the blade to be forced forward, being 'broken' by the cap iron (chip breaker). If there is a place where a shaving or even a large piece of wood dust can catch, it will. This will then clog the whole works.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I think I should have said the lever cap as I see some calling the breaker iron a cap iron. Guess I need to study up my terminology.

I have that problem all the time :-)

The most important thing is that they figure out what you are talking about I think.

And do not forget about the definition of a synonym : the word that you use when you do not know how to spell the word that you wanted to use.

[Tom Trees]

Hello, you don't want to go overboard with the lever cap, if yours is set too tight, it might make one think there are better designed planes out there.
Adjustments are easy if the lever cap is snug, but a pain when too tight.

As said, it sounds like there is a gap in-between the cap iron and the iron.
Whilst remedying the cap iron...
You may find that it's rather easy to end up with a convex surface if working on a large abrasive area.
Simulating the same scenario as a belly on the cutter iron.

I've not heard anyone else mention this, maybe obvious to some, but think its worth noting...
To rectify a convex underside on the cap iron, I suggest that you need to concentrate on taking off material from the middle only, to bring it back to flat.
You could use the corner of a hone, or if you have a lapping plate, maybe less faffery to stick a "quite shorter than the width of the iron" wee strip of abrasive,
and it will make the job easy peasy..
Finish off with a lick the way you've seen it, make sure there's a good bit of undercut and hone the top side past 50 degrees.
All the best
Tom

[Jim Matthews]

The cap iron needs to be "relieved" behind the leading edge such that only the tip touches.

I follow the approach demonstrated in the video by Richard McGuire. Note around 4:00 the position of tge cap iron is not flat - much of it is below the stone surface.

https://youtu.be/fVfJxDFNinc

[steven c newman]

I usually try for a knife edge....enough the the very edge will snuggle down onto the back of the iron..

[Derek Cohen]

The closer you set the chipbreaker to the back of the blade, the greater the importance in mating the two. If you set the chipbreaker back at a non-involved distance - for example, more than 1mm or 1/16”, as Steven does - then the mating is far less relevant.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you Derek. I just went through this with an old Stanley. Some dust/chips catching when set very close. Although no light is showing between the two, there must be something that isn’t smooth. Move it back to 1/16”, and all is good.

[James Pallas]

It’s been my experience that some older planes have been distorted by the cap screw too tight and left that way. I was taught to release the cap when work was completed with a plane. I still release the lever cap as a habit. Planes that I have found have the screw so tight you can’t easily release it. If that tight it will distort the cap iron and the whole plane.

[Richard Hutchings]

On another forum it was suggested to bend the breaker iron which makes sense to me. I imagine over time they get a little bent in the wrong direction not allowing the screw to do It's work.

[Rafael Herrera]

It's simpler to use a sharpening stone to create a bevel where the chip breaker mates with the flat side of the iron. Preferably a diamond stone since you are assured the stone is flat. See the method shown in the Richard Mcguire video above.

[Richard Hutchings]

I'm not having any problem sharpening or flattening. I'ts working fine now with just a tighter cap. I think a little bending would allow me to loosen the lever cap a little more although it works pretty good the way it is now.

[Derek Cohen]

On another forum it was suggested to bend the breaker iron which makes sense to me. I imagine over time they get a little bent in the wrong direction not allowing the screw to do It's work.

That was my comment on WoodCentral. A tiny bend between the screw and the toe adds a little spring. But be careful if you do this to ensure you keep all square - I do this in a vise.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

One of the things many folks do is over tighten screws and nuts, the old "if a little bit is good, a whole lot more is better" routine. My Dad was guilty of that with many things in life but he did respect nuts and screws. I often see it with planes. My instruction is to tighten to "Handy and then just a smidgen more". It will allow the plane to function as designed and make it easier to use. I see it more often with the Frog screws than the lever cap, I guess because if the lever cap screw is too tight it is hard to adjust the iron but I see it there as well.

ken

[Richard Hutchings]

Good reminder. I need to loosen my frog screws enough to be able to adjust without removing the irons. I have a few of my planes disassembled on my bench right now, just going over anything I can find to make them better. This will be numero uno when I reassemble them.

[Richard Hutchings]

That was my comment on WoodCentral. A tiny bend between the screw and the toe adds a little spring. But be careful if you do this to ensure you keep all square - I do this in a vise.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Good reminder. I need to loosen my frog screws enough to be able to adjust without removing the irons. I have a few of my planes disassembled on my bench right now, just going over anything I can find to make them better. This will be numero uno when I reassemble them.

That sounds like a mistake. If your frog can move while set up to work, it likely will.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

Good reminder. I need to loosen my frog screws enough to be able to adjust without removing the irons. I have a few of my planes disassembled on my bench right now, just going over anything I can find to make them better. This will be numero uno when I reassemble them.

Good job you mentioned this Richard, why one would want to adjust their frog.
That clears up a lot of things, and makes up the majority of your answer.

The cap iron cannot be used well with a tight mouth, bring the frog all the way back flush with the casting, as
the cap iron is getting clogged because your mouth is closed up.
The front of the mouth has nothing to do with holding down fibres... that is,
when the cap iron is suitably set.

From your comment above, its likely this could be your thinking.
All this will do, is give the impression that the cap iron is set as close as it can possibly be, and that still won't be close enough to prevent tearout much of the time.
Presuming you are getting much chatter and its very hard to push with your plane set up like this.

You might be finding this more noticeable on this plane, because the leading edge of the cap iron has a steeper profile than on the other plane you have.
Hone the leading edge past 50 degrees, and set the mouth open to fix this, you may not have enough undercut on the underside also.
Set the plane as per Weaver's advice.
i.e the camber being perfect and bang on centre.

All the best
Happy planing
Tom

[Richard Hutchings]

Just when I think I learned something. Thank you, I'll reconsider this.

[ken hatch]

That sounds like a mistake. If your frog can move while set up to work, it likely will.

jtk

Jim,

Been doing it that way for years and nope it doesn't move in use. That's not to say if too loose it will not move, just that if set correctly it will not move.

ken

[ken hatch]

Just when I think I learned something. Thank you, I'll reconsider this.

Richard,

See my reply to Jim and give it a go. I think you will be pleased. While my Dad was a "lot is better" kind of guy, he also owned and operated a large oil field Machine shop and if he caught me over torquing anything I'd never hear the end of it.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,

Been doing it that way for years and nope it doesn't move in use.

ken

Do you regularly adjust your frog(s)?

This would seem to negate the idea of the later Bedrock design.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Just one more thing to add, most of this is moot, once the frog is set there really are few reasons to move it, especially if you are using the cap iron correctly.

ken

[ken hatch]

Jim,

No I do not regularly move my Frog. Here is something to think about, because of the way the Bedrock Frog bed is machined when you move the Frog you change the projection of the cutter. Moving the Frog on a Bedrock isn't seamless. It ends up the Bedrock sales sizzle is just that, sizzle.

Bedrock planes didn't sell because the old guys were smart enough to not pay more money for sizzle.

I wish LN would have used the Bailey design for their planes instead of the Bedrock but it is what it is and they would have still ended up too heavy and with A2 cutters :). A new Bailey plane with tight tolerances but still light and with thin cutters and cap iron would be a joy to use.

Of course, as always, YMMV

ken

[Richard Hutchings]

I'm going to look at some planes tonight, someone local to me has a bunch for sale. I hope his prices are reasonable otherwise I'd rather buy a new Stanley. I don't mind putting in the work to get them working well.

[steven c newman]

Type 20 Stanley No. 4....
440628
A former rust bucket...
440629
Now works like new...in Pine..
440630
Or on Ash...
440631

Iron bevel is 25 degrees, single bevel. Iron's back was flattened, mainly where the chipbreaker will reside. Chipbreaker's leading edge was rounded...change that to a polished, knife's edge, and mated to the back of the iron, zero gaps. Chipbreaker is back from the edge a hair...just a thin, silvery line shows. Bolt that holds the iron to the chipbreaker is torqued tight, I do NOT want them to slide around while adjusting the depth of cut....otherwise, all I'd be pushing forward would be just the chipbreaker...

Face of frog was cleaned of rust
440632
Lateral lever freed up and oiled...
440633
The 2 flat areas where the frog sits down on the base, were cleaned of paint and rust...frog is set co-planar with the ramp at the back of the mouth's opening...Frog's bolts were cleaned of rust, a dab of oil on the threads. I snug both down, use the frog adjust to align with the ramp, then a 1/2 turn to tighten all three. Frog adjust bolt is tightened once the two frog bolts are. Threads for the depth adjust wheel were cleaned up, a dab of oil added, once the cleaned wheel was started onto the threads. Only needs one finger to adjust the wheel, to adjust the cut.
440635
Lever cap....was cleaned and polished up, lever cam cleaned and oiled. Installed in place...adjust the bolt so the lever will make an audible "CLICK" when it is snapped down...then a 1/4 turn might get added...if needed. Lever cap has to press down on the chipbreaker, but, still allow the depth adjustor to move the iron/chipbreaker.
440639
A few test drives to confirm the settings....hard to stop making them shavings...and we're done....entire process from tear down to test drive took 90 minutes...sole was flat, sides were polished up, handles refinished....I think I can live with that dark Royal Navy Blue colour scheme on the base and frog....but NOT flaky black paint on hardwood handles.