I must be OLD! I HATE the Metric System!!

[Clarence Martinn]

:mad:

Well, it's either I am getting OLD !! , or being stuck in the House because of the Coronavirus shutdown !! :rolleyes: Went through the latest woodworking catalogs , and took a look at some nice Wood Chisels. I am used to the standard 1/4. 1/2, 1/8, 3/4 and 1 INCH !! Wood chisels.. WELL...... The set I looked at was in METRIC !!!:( Oh, it was nice looking alright. But, when I compared the Metric sizes to STANDARD INCH sizes, some were under sized, some were over sized. WHY !!! can't they make Metric sized Chisels that are equal in size to STANDARD size Wood Chisels ????

Off my Soap Box now !!:mad::rolleyes::confused::eek::):D:(;)

[mike stenson]

Welcome to being the only country that still uses imperial. If you want imperial, it's gonna have to be US made.

[glenn bradley]

Because then they would have to use increments smaller than a millimeter :D:D:D. Being old I have gone through the full blown attempts to switch to metric twice in public school. Freeway signs, speed limit signs, gas pumps; millions of my tax dollars spent only to give up something so easy. On the upside I now flow between them pretty readily for short lengths. I'm poor at volumes beyond the liter and can't make my mind "see" KPH versus MPH so, like I said, we gave up.

It is convenient to have chisels near the size we desire but, I don't use chisels as precise measuring devices. I may be cutting a 1/2" mortise but if it is .3mm (just funnin') too narrow or wide I will still fit the tenon to it, not vice versa. I applaud your healthy and succinct Soap Box Rant. We are living in the time we are living in and so I try to carry on. Generally it is not a big deal but, I too occasionally rant-on about our failure to join the planet in the metric system. That being said, I think and work in imperial. It uses a different part of my brain than I used in my career and I find it very relaxing.

[Mike Henderson]

I have both metric and imperial chisels and use both. If you use antique chisels most were not the exact size. For most of the work I do having an exact size chisel doesn't matter.

Mike

[Tyler Bancroft]

Welcome to being the only country that still uses imperial. If you want imperial, it's gonna have to be US made.

Not quite - most of the Lee Valley Veritas tools are still in imperial. But good luck finding anything out of Europe that's not metric that's less than a few decades old.

[mike stenson]

Not quite - most of the Lee Valley Veritas tools are still in imperial. But good luck finding anything out of Europe that's not metric that's less than a few decades old.

True, I suspect Rob considers the US to be a major enough market to warrant doubling the tooling..

[Rafael Herrera]

I believe Ashley Isles are sold in imperial sizes. Narex has an imperial sized set as well too.

[Jim Matthews]

Wait, you measure things in your shop?

[Jim Koepke]

Set the mortise gauge to the chisel and wack away.

My work improved after giving up on trying to use a tape measure on everything. Now a story stick seems to bring better accuracy.

My rulers and tape measure are typically used to measure overall lengths.

My thinking is still in inches and feet, but working with metric is okay. It is usually easy to convert back and forth if needed.

jtk

[Tyler Bancroft]

True, I suspect Rob considers the US to be a major enough market to warrant doubling the tooling..

I can't speak for professional cabinetmakers, but I'm pretty sure the Canadian construction industry still tends to use imperial. Canada's a bit mixed-up on this. Kilometers for distance and km/h for speed, but feet and inches for height and shorter measurements. Most people give you their weight in pounds, but no one uses ounces. Pints at the pub, but litres at the grocery store and in the kitchen. Fortunately, we're totally metric for science purposes, otherwise I'd go insane.

[Jerome Andrieux]

As a French, I never had to learn the British unit system in school. I guess because the metric system is such a French Revolution thing AND most of all, the imperial system a British one :)

Anyway, while I got the common fractions of a inch quite naturally, It takes me a minute to figure out if a 6 feet and 9 inches person is a child or a giant. Not to mention the miles/gallon vs l/100km.

[Tony Wilkins]

I am of that generation where they decided to teach only the metric system in an effort to force us to use it. So I’ve had to pick up the imperial system along the way and I can never quite remember some of the conversions.

btw, I vaguely remember hearing/reading somewhere that Japanese tools are sold in metric but are actually made in the old Japanese system (bo, sun, etc). Anybody know about that?

[Andrew Seemann]

I like having a set of metric chisels with my standard ones. It can be nice for cleaning out a mortice to have a slightly undersized chisel. Most times though, I pick a chisel width for convenience relative to the operation, not because I need an exact size. In that case, standard vs metric doesn't matter.

[mike stenson]

Fortunately, we're totally metric for science purposes, otherwise I'd go insane.
So is the US. However, the only countries that officially use imperial are the US, Liberia and Myanmar.

I grew up with metric, it's easy. In any case, I try not to measure.

[Mike Soaper]

I wonder if when Norm said measure twice, cut once he really wanted folks to measure in metric and imperial before cutting?

[ken hatch]

The big advantage of going metric is it will cut your measuring mistakes to almost nothing. I went metric about ten years ago and I can't remember the last time I made a measuring mistake.

I have both Imperial and metric tools in my shop, truth is it makes no never mind which is used other than a 8mm chisel matches up with a 5/16 mortise chisel and no one that I know of makes a 5/16 bench chisel.

ken

[mike stenson]

The big advantage of going metric is it will cut your measuring mistakes to almost nothing. I went metric about ten years ago and I can't remember the last time I made a measuring mistake.

I have both Imperial and metric tools in my shop, truth is it makes no never mind which is used other than a 8mm chisel matches up with a 5/16 mortise chisel and no one that I know of makes a 5/16 bench chisel.

ken


If I *AM* measuring, I try to use metric. The last couple projects that required it had to be imperial.. calling out measurements does no good if the other person has a different scale tape ;)

Well, that and ... while I can tell you how many of what dart I need to double out right now on.. fractional math (especially division) is painful for me.

[Ben Ellenberger]

When I use chisels, if I’m doing something big I grab a big chisel, if I’m doing something small I use a small chisel. I don’t think I’ve ever actually measured my chisels to see whether or not they are exactly their nominal width. Nothing I’ve done has ever depended on a chisel being an exact size.

[roger wiegand]

I have no idea whether my chisels are metric or imperial, and I really don't care one way or the other. Likewise whether my plane shavings are thousandths of an inch thick or fractions of a millimeter (I'm guessing they are both!). I'm trying to think of an application in the shop where it might matter and am coming up empty-- today might have been an example, I needed to drill a hole and fit a plunger to it. I had some dowel labeled 1/2" and a 1/2" drill-- easy, right? Of course the dowel was neither round not any discernible even size in any measurement system, nor the same diameter over any 6" length I could find. So I drilled a hole with a drill that was about the size I wanted and went to the lathe and turned a plunger that fit my hole. It seems most everything is like that; if some dimension is constrained by your tooling you fit the other parts to it.

[Jeff Ranck]

The best advice I ever received was to pick a system and stay with it. Doesn't matter which one as they both work. I've pretty much transitioned to the metric system for my projects. I don't notice any difference other than the math is whole numbers instead of fractions. Like many of you, I avoid measuring if I can. I tend to use dividers, a sector, and other such things when I can.

[John Gornall]

Working on a job in imperial, neighbour goes on a rant about not using metric, stupid imperial, stupid fractions. Then asks me to rip a board 6 1/2 centimeters wide for him. I said, 65 mm? He looked so confused.

[ken hatch]

Working on a job in imperial, neighbour goes on a rant about not using metric, stupid imperial, stupid fractions. Then asks me to rip a board 6 1/2 centimeters wide for him. I said, 65 mm? He looked so confused.

Funny :p,

ken

[Andrew Seemann]

Working on a job in imperial, neighbour goes on a rant about not using metric, stupid imperial, stupid fractions. Then asks me to rip a board 6 1/2 centimeters wide for him. I said, 65 mm? He looked so confused.

That is when you tell him you will only work in cubits. If they were good enough for Noah, they are good enough for him.

[John Gornall]

Where do I get a cubit rule?

[Jim Koepke]

Where do I get a cubit rule?

You could mark your own by starting here > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/tapes/65359-lee-valley-story-tape?item=99W7850

jtk

[John Gornall]

That tape certainly has no inaccuracies!

[Curt Putnam]

Way back when I was in school, I could never remember the prefixes - as in went with which power of 10. An engineer friend of mone once told me that he had to convert furlongs per fortnight to centimeters per hour on a quiz.

[Erich Weidner]

I have a few rulers that are metric on the back. Once in a blue moon I figure something out in metric, but usually I only use the metric rulers when I have to use my Festool Domino or track saw as I can never remember what a 3/4 or 1/2" board/ply/etc. is in metric and the markings on those tools are metric.

Wife is from a metric country. She can now think in Fahrenheit but she looks at me like I'm an alien when I say something like 5/8th of an inch. Her tape measure is in metric. ;)

PS. I'm often mumbling "stupid metric" when forced to use it. I guess we are just used to what we are used to. As a plus I got a lot better with fractions after picking up woodworking.

[Andrew Seemann]

Way back when I was in school, I could never remember the prefixes - as in went with which power of 10. An engineer friend of mone once told me that he had to convert furlongs per fortnight to centimeters per hour on a quiz.

Ah yes, the time honored Furlong-Firkin-Fortnight system of measurement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFF_system

At the research lab I worked at in college, when we wanted to mess with the uptight engineers, we would give them quantities in hogsheads, rods, pecks, hands, chains, squares, etc.

[Tom Stenzel]

What, no Smoots?

As far as the metric system goes, Rod Sheridan and I bantered about that some time ago. I'd hate to repeat myself. I haven't come up with any new jokes since.

-Tom

"The worst thing about getting old is losing your short term memory." -Carl Reiner's first twitter post

"The worst thing about getting old is losing your short term memory." -Carl Reiner's second twitter post

[Hilton Ralphs]

:mad:

WHY !!! can't they make Metric sized Chisels that are equal in size to STANDARD size Wood Chisels ????



You mean like 6.35, 12.7, 3.18 etc? You would have two sets of identically sized chisels, just different markings.

The mortise doesn't know you're using a metric chisel though.

[Osvaldo Cristo]

The title of your message brought me some hope. Thank you!

Seriously, I felt your pain but at the reverse side: I live in the metric world but sometimes I face something using imperial! I maintain a set of imperial sized tools (nuts, Allen's, filling gauge,...) just to preserve my sanity.

Fortunately as time goes by less and less I need those imperial sized tools. Actually I think last time I needed it was a couple of years ago.

Please accept my solidarity!

[Curt Harms]

I grew up with metric, it's easy. In any case, I try not to measure.

Growing up with it is key. Once we learn something and practice it for a while, unlearning it ain't easy. I imagine living in a country that is metric only would help to become 'bilingual' re measures.

[mike stenson]

Growing up with it is key. Once we learn something and practice it for a while, unlearning it ain't easy. I imagine living in a country that is metric only would help to become 'bilingual' re measures.

I'll point out growing up knowing metric, then learning 'imperial' is the same as someone growing up in the US learning metric. It's really not terribly difficult, easier than another language, it does take commitment to learning it..

[ken hatch]

I'll point out growing up knowing metric, then learning 'imperial' is the same as someone growing up in the US learning metric. It's really not terribly difficult, easier than another language, it does take commitment to learning it..

It is pretty easy to do. If this dumb old West Texas farm boy can do it anyone can. Once done life is easier. BTW, I live just down the road from the only metric signed Interstate Hyw in the USA, I-19. It will come some day, the sooner the better.

ken

[John Gornall]

Grade school imperial
College science metric
Engineering school imperial
First job Swedish company metric
Australia metric
New Zealand imperial but changed to metric while I was working there
USA imperial
USA metric equipment on Imperial job
Now in my shop where I make a living Imperial
But in my home wood shop it's both - when I start a project it just seems easy to choose but no logic behind it. Smaller jobs with hand tools at the bench are in fractions imperial - kitchen cabinets metric

[Rafael Herrera]

Back in the home country, Peru, my father used metric and Imperial his whole life. I never heard him complaint about it. After near 30 years in this country, Imperial comes naturally to me, like English, I think and dream in Imperial, most of the time. If I have to count in my head, however, I count in Spanish. Since I use mainly old tools, I'm also Imperial in my workshop. At work we use metric.

[Jim Koepke]

I have both Imperial and metric tools in my shop, truth is it makes no never mind which is used other than a 8mm chisel matches up with a 5/16 mortise chisel and no one that I know of makes a 5/16 bench chisel.

There are some 5/16" bench chisels available. Mine is made by Witherby. If you want a modern example you will have to settle for an 8mm chisel.

From working on bicycles in my youth and owning a few VWs most of my wrenches and socket sets are metric. SAE tools came later.

The wrench size equivalents were easy to remember. A chart was made as an aid to others:

440315

For use in the shop there is a handy chart, on my plane wall, picked up somewhere years ago:

440316

It sits on the shelf below the bevel gauges. It is mostly used when converting fractions to decimal to select numbered drills.

If you get a Starrett catalog there are some useful charts in the last section. They are also in the online catalog:

440317

This should be a .pdf people can print if desired.

jtk

[Tony Zona]

Let's see here.


Clarence Martinn said in his original post that he hates metric and seems to really love Imperial chisels.


Osvaldo Cristo lives in metric-land and has unused Imperial tools.


Here is a solution. Maybe Osvaldo could send a few Imperial chisels to Clarence as an international gesture. And Clarence could send a metric chisel or two to Osvaldo.

Done.

[ken hatch]

There are some 5/16" bench chisels available. Mine is made by Witherby. If you want a modern example you will have to settle for an 8mm chisel.

From working on bicycles in my youth and owning a few VWs most of my wrenches and socket sets are metric.
jtk

Jim,

Yes you are correct, you can still find 5/16" vintage chisels just not new ones. I should have made that clearer in my post. I still find it strange current makers of chisels do not make a 5/16" chisel because a 5/16" mortise hole is the best fit for a mortise in a 4/4 board and there are many 5/16" mortise chisels. Go figure.

I'm pretty much the same on hand tools, most are metric. My best guess is we will never get to a single standard, shame but that is the way it is. BTW in the aviation world it is also a hodge podge of metric and Imperial. Altitudes are Imperial except in a couple of countries, Russia and China. There may be a couple more but I've been out of the game so long my memory isn't great. When you fly into either country it often turns into a goat rope although the newer avionics can do the conversions for you. Temperature is metric, even though most altitudes are Imperial, altimeter pressure setting can be either and so on. There are more examples but you get the picture and the mix can vary with country.

It is a pretty dumb way to run things and it is mostly because of the USA refusing to join the rest of the world.

ken

[Tony Wilkins]

Jim,

Yes you are correct, you can still find 5/16" vintage chisels just not new ones. I should have made that clearer in my post. I still find it strange current makers of chisels do not make a 5/16" chisel because a 5/16" mortise hole is the best fit for a mortise in a 4/4 board and there are many 5/16" mortise chisels. Go figure.

I'm pretty much the same on hand tools, most are metric. My best guess is we will never get to a single standard, shame but that is the way it is. BTW in the aviation world it is also a hodge podge of metric and Imperial. Altitudes are Imperial except in a couple of countries, Russia and China. There may be a couple more but I've been out of the game so long my memory isn't great. When you fly into either country it often turns into a goat rope although the newer avionics can do the conversions for you. Temperature is metric, even though most altitudes are Imperial, altimeter pressure setting can be either and so on. There are more examples but you get the picture and the mix can vary with country.

It is a pretty dumb way to run things and it is mostly because of the USA refusing to join the rest of the world.

ken

I know lie-Nielsen makes 5/16 and I think Blue Spruce does too.

[Jim Koepke]

A good reason for having metric chisels is when cutting a dado a slightly undersize chisel will help at avoiding chipping at the edges.

For a hand cut 3/4" dado a 5/8" chisel is often used.

jtk

[ken hatch]

I know lie-Nielsen makes 5/16 and I think Blue Spruce does too.

Thanks Tony,

I forget about looking at either LN or BS because their chisels are A2 and my sharpening system doesn't play well with A2. A 8mm works well.

ken

[Tony Wilkins]

Thanks Tony,

I forget about looking at either LN or BS because their chisels are A2 and my sharpening system doesn't play well with A2. A 8mm works well.

ken
Thought I would avoid that part of the discussion lol. FWIW, my LN 5/16 & 7/16 are both O1.

[Jim Koepke]

If you are interested in a story of a metric to imperial mix up becoming a story around the world look into the 'Gimli Glider'.

Gimli Glider story > https://www.cbc.ca/archives/when-a-metric-mix-up-led-to-the-gimli-glider-emergency-1.4754039


It is a pretty dumb way to run things and it is mostly because of the USA refusing to join the rest of the world.

The Gimli Glider saga was actually on a Montreal-to-Edmonton Air Canada flight. Of course it was almost 40 years ago.

The USA completely changing to metric would likely cause as much confusion and problems as if we tried to change from driving on the right hand side of the road to driving on the left hand side of the road.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Thought I would avoid that part of the discussion lol. FWIW, my LN 5/16 & 7/16 are both O1.

Tony,

Tried to not get into a something v A2 but it is a fact A2 doesn't work well with all sharpening systems. You are lucky, I like to support small makers and it is a shame LN no longer makes O1 chisels or plane irons. I have one LN 01 iron and it is a very good cutter.

ken

[mike stenson]

The USA completely changing to metric would likely cause as much confusion and problems as if we tried to change from driving on the right hand side of the road to driving on the left hand side of the road.

jtk

I don't think so. Really, every other industrialized country has done it, largely successfully too ;)

[ken hatch]

I don't think so. Really, every other industrialized country has done it, largely successfully too ;)


Mike,

I agree, we were on our way back when I-19 was built and then the crazies took over and stopped it. If we had keep on trucking it would be over and we would be aligned with the rest of the world instead of the sore thumb sticking up.

ken

[mike stenson]

Mike,

I agree, we were on our way back when I-19 was built and then the crazies took over and stopped it. If we had keep on trucking it would be over and we would be aligned with the rest of the world instead of the sore thumb sticking up.

ken

Ken,

Yep, and let's face it.. the Brits went from old money (which confuses me to no end: 12 pence in a shilling and 20 shillings, or 240 pence, in a pound.) to decimalized money too...

[Jim Koepke]

I don't think so. Really, every other industrialized country has done it, largely successfully too ;)

Metrics is slowly creeping in.

Isn't Plywood already metric?

Most product containers have metric units listed.

Do they make metric tape measures with indicators for spacing studs and joists?

When all the road signs are changed there won't be much else left to change.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

I don't work in the metric system or can't visualize how big 286mm is, but I find the system in general easy to understand and we'll thought out. Anything around a inch is simple enough 12mm = 1/2 etc.

[mike stenson]

Metrics is slowly creeping in.

Isn't Plywood already metric?

Most product containers have metric units listed.

Do they make metric tape measures with indicators for spacing studs and joists?

When all the road signs are changed there won't be much else left to change.

jtk

Yes and yes.

We've sort of been metric for a long time. Even the US imperial measurements are shifted for metric, they're not the same as the UK imperial measurements. Well, with the exception of temperature.

[Brian Holcombe]

I’ll stick with imperial, please and thank you.

[Jim Koepke]

I’ll stick with imperial, please and thank you.

And that is how it will change. One generation will use metric and it will become the common language of measurement. When those of us sticking to the imperial system are gone, metric will be what is left.

jtk

[Mike Kreinhop]

The USA completely changing to metric would likely cause as much confusion and problems as if we tried to change from driving on the right hand side of the road to driving on the left hand side of the road.

I was stationed in Okinawa when they changed from driving on the right side of the road to the left. The event was "730 Day", for 30 July 1978. The preparation was months in the making, which included having all new signs, traffic lights, road markings, public awareness campaigns, and other driving aids in place. The new traffic controls were covered until the unveiling.

All traffic stopped the evening of 29 July when all of the fire stations turned on the sirens. The road crews uncovered the new signs and lights, and covered the old signs and lights. The silence was eerie. Japan brought in a lot of police to stand on busy corners to direct traffic for those who instinctively headed for the right lane while making a turn. The next morning, the sirens went off again, and the silence was broken as traffic resumed on the left side of the road. Despite predictions of horrendous accidents and loss of life, I don't recall anything more than one fender bender, and that was on the military installation.

[Tony Wilkins]

I definitely understand the oft expressed sentiment in this thread that size doesn’t matter, ie that you just pick up a chisel of about the right size and get working. One thing that pops into my head when I read that was the concept of tool slaving (I think that’s what it’s called). That’s the idea that the tools worked together, e.g. a chisel that works with the blade of a plow plane because they are the same size. I read this in Jim Tolpin’s New Traditional Woodworker. Do y’all consider this concept useful in your woodworking?

[ken hatch]

I definitely understand the oft expressed sentiment in this thread that size doesn’t matter, ie that you just pick up a chisel of about the right size and get working. One thing that pops into my head when I read that was the concept of tool slaving (I think that’s what it’s called). That’s the idea that the tools worked together, e.g. a chisel that works with the blade of a plow plane because they are the same size. I read this in Jim Tolpin’s New Traditional Woodworker. Do y’all consider this concept useful in your woodworking?

Tony,

Short answer: Nope. Longer: There are times it helps such as cleaning up mortises but even there getting close is good enough.

Going back to the old guys. Their chisels were hand made and seldom perfect sized like some of today's machine made tools, close was good enough.

ken

[Andrew Seemann]

I definitely understand the oft expressed sentiment in this thread that size doesn’t matter, ie that you just pick up a chisel of about the right size and get working. One thing that pops into my head when I read that was the concept of tool slaving (I think that’s what it’s called). That’s the idea that the tools worked together, e.g. a chisel that works with the blade of a plow plane because they are the same size. I read this in Jim Tolpin’s New Traditional Woodworker. Do y’all consider this concept useful in your woodworking?

More so with power tools than hand tools. Power tools it is important for things to match, hand tools not so much. In fact one time I consistently reach for metric chisels is cleaning out mortices cut to imperial sizes. I find it much easier to to use a slightly undersized chisel to clean them, less binding.

[James Pallas]

Imperial for me. I can work in either. Simple math problems are not difficult. I find that most errors are made reading the measurement devise. No mater whether it’s cubits, hands, millimeters, knots, chains, bu, whiskers or eyelashes if you read it wrong it’s wrong.

[Tyler Bancroft]

Where do I get a cubit rule?


https://www.burn-heart.com/rulers-of-the-ancient-world ;)

[John Gornall]

That site is an interesting read, thanks

[Ben Ellenberger]

But there is a more important question: do you use the US Survey foot or the new International Standard foot?


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/18/science/foot-surveying-metrology-dennis.html?referringSource=articleShare

[Derek Cohen]

I started out in the Imperial world, and then Metric was introduced when I was 10 or 11 years. As a result, I am fairly comfortable with either.

Until about 5 or 6 years ago, my preference was Imperial. This was largely due to using hand tools, and slaving the sizes. For example, a 1/4” groove, or a 1/2” dado. It was convenient to be able to swap between plough blade and chisel. I made sense then to use drill bits that matched these as well.

What I like about Imperial is that the larger increments (in inches and feet) make it easier to break down and visualise long parts. But when it comes to smaller sections, Metric is preferred since there is no need to work in fractions. Metric gets very busy in the larger sizes.

Since the past 5 years I have been increasingly moving to Metric. This has been essentially forced on me by my Hammer A3-31 jointer-thicknesser/planer. European machines are all metric, and the digital gauge for the thicknesser is Metric. As soon as a base measurement is established, it affects all up the line. For many years my builds have included both Metric and Imperial, as I would just use the measure closest to the line on the rule (although most if the time I do not measure - part sizes are transferred by a cutting gauge). Increasingly I use Metric and add in the Imperial size for US readers. Interesting, more and more US readers appear to use Metric now.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Erich Weidner]

I don't really care if we (US) switch to metric for the most part. I can't think in metric, but with practice it would come.
But you can only take away miles per hour over my cold dead body. ;)

Interestingly enough, while visiting the UK, I noticed that though the country is metric the speed limit signs are still in MPH.

[Brian Holcombe]

.1mm is .0039” so not very useful on the small end wrt such units and I’ve found it less than ideal for person scale measures also.

There is good reason that imperial has remained popular in machining and building trades, it’s easy it’s quickly convertible between decimal and fraction in your head and easily visible.

Metric is an ideal standard in my opinion, the fact that a standard can be derived locally using testing rather than relying upon an artifact. That doesn’t make it more practical in my workshop but I do use it on occasion.

[Halgeir Wold]

For precision work, we use micrometers....which is quite more accurate than thousands of an inch....;) For some years, I even had to work with Angstroms and nanometers....

I can assure all of you that prefer imperial, that all your objections to metric are no problems i practical work, and for larger measures and sizes, air fields, air planes, roads and oil rigs are built with metrics without any problems, - and in the rare cases there are problems, it's not due to the metric system.
What I do see, though, is that this is mostly a question of what we are used to. Most of Europe has been metric for a couple of centuries now, but when I grew up during the late 50s and 60s, construction lumber was stil referred to as 2x4s and so on. My generation and older folks still refer to 2x4, 2x8s, even if we know very well that is not what will be listed on an invoice......Plumbing was all imperial, and to some extent still is, even if metric conduit has taken over most of the market.
At work I've been using both systems for well over 40 years - I just don't see all those problems.... it¨s all in our minds...:cool:

[Andrew Seemann]

.1mm is .0039” so not very useful on the small end wrt such units and I’ve found it less than ideal for person scale measures also.

There is good reason that imperial has remained popular in machining and building trades, it’s easy it’s quickly convertible between decimal and fraction in your head and easily visible.

Metric is an ideal standard in my opinion, the fact that a standard can be derived locally using testing rather than relying upon an artifact. That doesn’t make it more practical in my workshop but I do use it on occasion.

My dislike of woodworking (and to an extent machining) in metric has to do with the unit sizes. Centimeters are too small, it seems like you need a ton of them to measure anything, but millimeters are too big for small measurements but too small for big measurements. And still, 0.1mm is too small to be of use in woodworking (yet too big for machining). In machining, you get to where you have tools that resolve in 0.05mm or 0.02mm, which kind off blows out the whole significant digit thing.

Metric is good for converting between units and for base 10 math and sciency stuff, but but as Brian says, there is a reason that the yard-foot-inch-fraction system evolved in the building trades and remains popular. It is a more "natural" system for geometric layout with dividers, compasses, and squares, and by definition it is more human scaled.

When the French came up with the metric system, it would have been so much simpler if they would have just kept the inch and based everything off of that, rather than doing some grandiose Enlightenment hair-brained scheme of a meter being one ten millionth of the equator to the north pole. Most European countries already used inches, and they were mostly the same size already.

[Brian Holcombe]

For precision work, we use micrometers....which is quite more accurate than thousands of an inch....;) For some years, I even had to work with Angstroms and nanometers....

I can assure all of you that prefer imperial, that all your objections to metric are no problems i practical work, and for larger measures and sizes, air fields, air planes, roads and oil rigs are built with metrics without any problems, - and in the rare cases there are problems, it's not due to the metric system.
What I do see, though, is that this is mostly a question of what we are used to. Most of Europe has been metric for a couple of centuries now, but when I grew up during the late 50s and 60s, construction lumber was stil referred to as 2x4s and so on. My generation and older folks still refer to 2x4, 2x8s, even if we know very well that is not what will be listed on an invoice......Plumbing was all imperial, and to some extent still is, even if metric conduit has taken over most of the market.
At work I've been using both systems for well over 40 years - I just don't see all those problems.... it¨s all in our minds...:cool:

The same tool exists in imperial....

[John Gornall]

Then there's nautical miles- not really metric or imperial. Originally defined as the distance along a line of longitude of 1 minute of latitude. However this varies close to the poles as the earth flattens so it has been defined as a certain distance in modern times. This is no quirky thing of the past as it's the distance measurement used for sea, air, and space travel. So It's a chart not a map and you read distances on the sides of the chart with your dividers. Also your latitude so they know where to find you. But now the chart is in a drawer just in case and you cruise by computer and GPS - mine even has a single button to press which sends out a mayday call with my lat and long position. Haven't used it.

[Erich Weidner]

We've sort of been metric for a long time. Even the US imperial measurements are shifted for metric, they're not the same as the UK imperial measurements. Well, with the exception of temperature.

I don't know what the origin of the differences between UK Imperial and US Imperial are, but I suspect it isn't to do with metric. Perhaps just the US deciding to be different.

But the only important thing to know is that a UK pint is 20 UK ounces which is in volume bigger than a US pint at 16 US ounces. Even though the UK ounce is less than a US ounce, they still put in more beer. (UK pint being about 19 US ounces as I recall w/o googling). And they have laws about not under pouring your pint of beer. I love that about the Brits!

Hmm... I'm going to go fetch a pint right now (though it will take a bottle and then some to fill my UK pint glass to the rim... mmm beer).

[Jim Koepke]

Then there is the strange system of measurment making an ounce of silver heavier than an ounce of sand even though a pound of sand is heavier than a pound of silver.

jtk

[mike stenson]

I don't know what the origin of the differences between UK Imperial and US Imperial are, but I suspect it isn't to do with metric. Perhaps just the US deciding to be different.
.


A US fluid ounce is 30ml, where an imperial fluid ounce is 28.413. Yes, we did metricize imperial.

Since you went with pints ;)

[Halgeir Wold]

The main reason behind the metric system, was to get rid of all the different units that by themselves was different from country to country, and even between different regions. As an example, - the inch as an imperial measure has lent its name from the roman "uncia", I think the roman definitn of size was the width of the thumb at the first joint. In Scandinavia the old unit was called "thumbs" for the same reason. Here in Norway we have at least three different "thumbs", four if we include a former swedish definition. Todays definition of an inch is actually derived from metrics, as 25,4 millimeters, - close enough from the old scottisch inch that by modern conversion was 25,444 mm...or something thereabouts...

[Erich Weidner]

A US fluid ounce is 30ml, where an imperial fluid ounce is 28.413. Yes, we did metricize imperial.




Interesting, I never would have suspected that.

[James Pallas]

If you need to work with decimals in imperial just buy an engineers tape. You can work to hundredth off the tape and thousandth by easy decimal. You will also find a tenth and hundredth scales on a rafter square or Starrett combo squares with the right blades.

[Bill Yacey]

MPH only makes perfect sense when the country is surveyed in a road grid of square miles, as is Canada. Offering directions in the country was easy, going north or south, crossroads are every two miles, and traveling east or west, a crossroad every mile. Now that everything has changed to kilometers, you need a pocket calculator.

[Patty Hann]

The big advantage of going metric is it will cut your measuring mistakes to almost nothing. I went metric about ten years ago and I can't remember the last time I made a measuring mistake.

I have both Imperial and metric tools in my shop, truth is it makes no never mind which is used other than a 8mm chisel matches up with a 5/16 mortise chisel and no one that I know of makes a 5/16 bench chisel. ken

I've used both the imperial and metric systems for over 30 years in the aerospace industry. I worked in a calibration lab.
Linear, physical, electronic and optical measurement tools were sometimes metric, sometimes imperial, sometimes both.
I can switch from one system to the other in my sleep.

So, Ken, why do you say using the metric system cuts your measuring mistakes to almost zero?
Not arguing with you at all...I just don't understand why that would be so, because I sure would like to cut my measuring mistakes to almost nothing. ;)

[Jim Koepke]

The big advantage of going metric is it will cut your measuring mistakes to almost nothing.


Dyslexia is an equal opportunity cause of measuring mistakes no matter which system is used.

Minimizing numerical measurements and using a story stick has greatly reduced my mistakes.

jtk

[Julie Moriarty]

:mad:

Well, it's either I am getting OLD !! , or being stuck in the House because of the Coronavirus shutdown !! :rolleyes: Went through the latest woodworking catalogs , and took a look at some nice Wood Chisels. I am used to the standard 1/4. 1/2, 1/8, 3/4 and 1 INCH !! Wood chisels.. WELL...... The set I looked at was in METRIC !!!:( Oh, it was nice looking alright. But, when I compared the Metric sizes to STANDARD INCH sizes, some were under sized, some were over sized. WHY !!! can't they make Metric sized Chisels that are equal in size to STANDARD size Wood Chisels ????

Off my Soap Box now !!:mad::rolleyes::confused::eek::):D:(;)

I'm slowly (VERY slowly) starting to make the mental comparisons from metric to imperial. But it's not just that. For instance, when buying plywood we find 1/4", 1/2" & 3/4", though they are all "undersized", none of which match common metric dimensions. I used a caliper to check and I'm getting 5.5mm, 11mm and 18mm.

So if I want to buy router bits for creating dados, I can only use "undersized" imperial bits. Even if we make the transition, we still have to contend with things like that.

In other words - it's good to be old. :)

[Jim Koepke]

I'm slowly (VERY slowly) starting to make the mental comparisons from metric to imperial. But it's not just that. For instance, when buying plywood we find 1/4", 1/2" & 3/4", though they are all "undersized", none of which match common metric dimensions. I used a caliper to check and I'm getting 5.5mm, 11mm and 18mm.

So if I want to buy router bits for creating dados, I can only use "undersized" imperial bits. Even if we make the transition, we still have to contend with things like that.

In other words - it's good to be old. :)

Another problem is my metric blades made for a Record #405 are different than another manufacturer's choice for size. Some makers use 18mm for 3/4" others use 20mm. Some make 25mm equivalent to 1" some use 24mm.

Could it be a conspiracy to sell more side rabbet planes?

jtk

[mike stenson]

I'm curious as to why the cutter size really matters that closely. I could probably mic most of mine and find them to vary (despite being nominally xx dimension). In the hand tool case, everything tends to be relative anyway and in the case of router bits, there are better ways to ensure that those dados are perfectly sized that do not involve buying special bits and would likely cost some scrap and a couple carriage bolts (making that relative too) ;)

[Jim Koepke]

I'm curious as to why the cutter size really matters that closely. I could probably mic most of mine and find them to vary (despite being nominally xx dimension).

It is helpful to have various tools match in size. A mortise in a style is one example. Running a slot with an undersized plow blade can be a mess if the mortise chisel is slightly larger. Going the other way isn't a whole lot better for creating neat work.

Making a dado for shelves when using Borg pine/fir at its standard cut of 3/4" it is less fussing if the blade cutting the dado is 3/4"/19mm rather than having to trim an 18mm dado or repair a 20mm dado.

My electric router hasn't been used in years. It is too noisy for my woodworking enjoyment.

Since tools designated in dimensions to my liking exist, why should my choice to purchase those matter?

If the Borgs and everywhere else start selling a skinny 3/4", there are already some 18mm blades in my kit.

My tools have also been checked with a mic. Sometimes it is useful to know which one is slightly undersized for use when needed.

jtk

[Halgeir Wold]

Just a point... 3/4" is actually 19.05mm.... if your ply is US made as 3/4" it really should measure 19mm, but if it's import from Europe ( Baltics?), 18mm is the european standard size, - maybe sold in the US as 3/4" or "close enough"...??

[Jim Koepke]

Just a point... 3/4" is actually 19.05mm.... if your ply is US made as 3/4" it really should measure 19mm, but if it's import from Europe ( Baltics?), 18mm is the european standard size, - maybe sold in the US as 3/4" or "close enough"...??

Yes, the relationship of 3/4" and 19mm is pretty standard for automobile lug nuts. 0.05mm is less than 0.002". Most all of my 3/4" auger bits are off by more than that.

In the land of "close enough" a person is lucky if their 2X4s are 1-5/8" by 3-1/4".

When pavement thickness or concrete pour is specified as 4" a contractor's measuring standard is often an off cut of 2x4.

jtk

[Curt Harms]

When pavement thickness or concrete pour is specified as 4" a contractor's measuring standard is often an off cut of 2x4.

jtk

I've never thought about that. 4" concrete could be really 3 1/4" to 3 1/2".

[Jack Frederick]

While still working, when in Canada, a wonderful place, doing training with contractors I would be inches/ft/oz/lb. I would apologize saying that being American we are to smart to use metric.

[Mel Fulks]

While still working, when in Canada, a wonderful place, doing training with contractors I would be inches/ft/oz/lb. I would apologize saying that being American we are to smart to use metric.

Did anyone reply "General Jack, we are all Americans"?

[Jon Snider]

Fir me the issue isn’t conceptual, but physical. I can read 1/16th” increments on imperial rules, which is as small as I usually need. But I have a devil of a time discerning 10ths of millimeters on a metric scale.

[Mike Henderson]

Fir me the issue isn’t conceptual, but physical. I can read 1/16th” increments on imperial rules, which is as small as I usually need. But I have a devil of a time discerning 10ths of millimeters on a metric scale.

I would expect so. A 10th of a millimeter is a LOT smaller than 1/16". In decimal inches, 1/16 is 0.0625", while a 10th of a millimeter is about 0.003937".

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Did anyone reply "General Jack, we are all Americans"?

People say that but, of course, our names come from our countries and not our continent. For Canada, it Canadians. For the United States of America it's Americans.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=Mike Henderson;3099338]People say that but, of course, our names come from our countries and not our continent. For Canada, it Canadians. For the United States of America it's Americans.

Thanks ,Mike . That was just an allusion to something Lee said at Civil War Surrender. There was an American Indian yankee there who was
an officer. Lee must have stared at him. Guy said he was an Indian. Lee said something like “I’m glad to see a real American here”.
Guy replied “General Lee, we are all Americans”. Now....why I originally posted that ....is something I DON’T know !

[Jim Koepke]

Fir me the issue isn’t conceptual, but physical. I can read 1/16th” increments on imperial rules, which is as small as I usually need. But I have a devil of a time discerning 10ths of millimeters on a metric scale.


I would expect so. A 10th of a millimeter is a LOT smaller than 1/16". In decimal inches, 1/16 is 0.0625", while a 10th of a millimeter is about 0.003937".

Mike

Most metric scales do not have markings for 10ths of a millimeter. Jon may have meant a 10th of a centimeter.

As a side note when my measuring changed from trying to work to 1/32" to 1/16" and 1/8" my work improved. Finally switching to a story stick and comparing parts to each other my work improved more.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

With ‘mercan tape measures you can choose between having 64ths or ....not. With metric the teeny millimeters are just a grey line
to anyone who forgot their glasses , that makes them useless for measuring. Metric is ok .....just not thought out well.

[roger wiegand]

With ‘mercan tape measures you can choose between having 64ths or ....not. With metric the teeny millimeters are just a grey line
to anyone who forgot their glasses , that makes them useless for measuring. Metric is ok .....just not thought out well.

You're joking I trust.

[Mel Fulks]

Not joking , and some USA organizations send old eye glasses to be used in other countries . The need would be less
with BIGGER MARKS on tape measures.

I should have said bigger spaces.

[Jim Matthews]

You're joking I trust.

He sez funny things, just not intentionally.

[mike stenson]

People say that but, of course, our names come from our countries and not our continent. For Canada, it Canadians. For the United States of America it's Americans.

Mike

I'm originally European. So, I guess.. whatever.

[mike stenson]

You're joking I trust.
There's a whole lot of irony in his statement. Likely unintentional.

[mike stenson]

Not joking , and some USA organizations send old eye glasses to be used in other countries . The need would be less
with BIGGER MARKS on tape measures.

I should have said bigger spaces.

Poverty has very little to do with their measurement devices.

[Mel Fulks]

Well, I’m lost. Didn’t say anything about poverty. It was about seeing . We have had posts saying 64ths are hard to see that were followed
by “me too” posts. Why should pointing out the real problems with metric be off limits?

[mike stenson]

Well, I’m lost. Didn’t say anything about poverty. It was about seeing . We have had posts saying 64ths are hard to see that were followed
by “me too” posts. Why should pointing out the real problems with metric be off limits?

So, then you just don't understand why glasses are sent to poorer countries for dissemination to the poor. Ok.

You need some readers man.

[Jon Snider]

Most metric scales do not have markings for 10ths of a millimeter. Jon may have meant a 10th of a centimeter.

As a side note when my measuring changed from trying to work to 1/32" to 1/16" and 1/8" my work improved. Finally switching to a story stick and comparing parts to each other my work improved more.

jtk

Thank you Jim. My point was the typical smallest units on most of my imperial rules I can see, if I squint. Not true for the smallest ones on my metric rules where the lines all seem to run together.

I should stop posting while at work. :)

[Mel Fulks]

[QUOTE=Jon Snider;3099610]Thank you Jim. My point was the typical smallest units on most of my imperial rules I can see, if I squint. Not true for the smallest ones on my metric rules where the lines all seem to run together.
Yes, that’s the point I was making....it’s not a good system,too gimmicky. I think it’s mainly for making accurate scale models. And what’s
that “kill-ometer “ about ? Who does that much killin’ ?

[Halgeir Wold]

1/16" = 1,5875mm... which may just be whre things go from clear to blurry...... I too need glasses for millimeters....:)
I don't think I've ever seen a ruler or the likes, with markings to 0.1mm... It just not useful at all.......
Otherwise - we're quite some millions around getting along just fine with our millimeters....... It all comes down to what we're used to...

[Mike Henderson]

I just checked some of the metric rules I have in my shop. They have graduations to a half millimeter on one side (not face) of the rule and to 1 millimeter on the other side. I can read the half millimeter graduations quite easily. I don't measure to that level of accuracy but I can see the markings.

Mike