options for smoothing tough grain

[Thomas Crawford]

This might be a little long-winded.

I have a couple desks I've been working on for about 8 months off and on as I've had time. (From Becksvoort FW 1990). Anyway, I've learned a lot in the process, its my first attempt at a "real" freestanding piece of furniture other than bookshelves and stuff.

So I've hit the point where I need to do some final smoothing on some sections including the tops. I have one in maple and one in cherry. In the maple I have a mix of regular maple and birds eye. The cherry is better behaved but there is one decorative knot that will be in the front that is tricky grain-wise. My #3 bedrock with PMV11 blade isn't cutting it for avoiding tear-out. Freshly honed it does well in some of the areas but not everything. Same with Stanley 4 1/2.

I want to get this right so here are my options I think, which if it involves money then fine, I want a long term solution.

Veritas "small" BU smoother - in stock later this week
Veritas BU smoother - out of stock end of Sept
LN #4 with 50 or 55 degree frog
Something like an HNT Gordon smoother with 55-60 degree pitch - https://hntgordon.com.au/collections/bench-planes/products/smoothing-plane
Bespoke coffin smoother - I'd love this but can't deal with the wait time and probably not the price range I want right now.

As a "right now" solution I have the following:
scraper
regrind the bevel on my veritas #7 or #5 BU planes (45-50 degrees?) - could I get good results with the low angle jack with adjustable mouth?
regrind the bevel on my LN adjustable mouth block plane
random orbit sander :eek:

Any advice?

[Tyler Bancroft]

I've dealt with very tricky grain with LV BU planes with a blade ground to 50ish. Once your cutting angle gets up past that critical low-60s degree level, you can deal with most things. But not everything can be planed, of course. If you go that route, be careful - if you take too deep a cut, or hit something particularly snarly, your plane can and will stop cold, and that's a good way to get a sore elbow or shoulder. (Ask me how I know!). I also seem to remember someone (Paul Sellers, maybe?) saying that he flipped his blade to deal with especially tricky grain.

I hope you post pictures at some point. I have a similar project on the back burner for a desk for my wife. But I'm planning on drilling out the big dead knot and using it as a cable passthrough for power cords, so I don't have to worry about planing it.

[Jim Koepke]

My first question is how thick are your shavings?

Around knots, preventing tear out can be next to impossible. Even the thinest shavings may leave a fuzzy feeling.

Sometimes a light fuzziness can be corrected by a shaving from a different direction. Sometimes it can be corrected by rubbing the area with a large handful of shavings.

jtk

[Tyler Bancroft]

Sometimes a light fuzziness can be corrected by a shaving from a different direction. Sometimes it can be corrected by rubbing the area with a large handful of shavings.

jtk

Interesting! I'm assuming the shavings are basically abrading away the loose fibers?

[Thomas Crawford]

False fronts not attached. The knotty cherry is for the false fronts. You can see on the maple top where I used the scraper, I have reversing grain right on the seams.

Pics:

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[Rafael Herrera]

Is your cap iron prepared so you can set it as close to the cutting edge as 1/32" or less? If so, take thin shavings with the cap iron set as close to the edge as you can.

These may be good to take a look at:

Setting a Cap Iron
How to Make Your Bench Plane Perform At Its Best
by David Weaver
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=newarticles&file=articles_935.shtml

Richard McGuire (the English woodworker) tuning the hand planes.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLiQuArVmCdjTWSEYc_SdDcCrfc9hK6d2H

[Tyler Bancroft]

False fronts not attached. The knotty cherry is for the false fronts. You can see on the maple top where I used the scraper, I have reversing grain right on the seams.

Pics:

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Looks good! With my limited experience, I don't think I'd try planing that knot. I'd probably try a scraper, and if that failed, resort to sanding. That knot looks like a chipped plane iron waiting to happen.

[Thomas Crawford]

Is your cap iron prepared so you can set it as close to the cutting edge as 1/32" or less? If so, take thin shavings with the cap iron set as close to the edge as you can.

These may be good to take a look at:

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=newarticles&file=articles_935.shtml

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLiQuArVmCdjTWSEYc_SdDcCrfc9hK6d2H

Good idea, I'll tighten that up. I bet its closer to 1/16

[David Eisenhauer]

A freshly sharpened blade in one my BD planes (#3 or #4 sized) with the cap iron (chip breaker) set as close as practicably possible (way less than a 32nd) would be my choice. There has been lots of discussion over the use of the close-set cap iron over the last year and it definitely works. Someone correct me if I am off on the number, but I believe that some are quoting a cap iron set as close as .04 mm from the end. I don't measure my setting, but close the cap iron up until I can only see a thin-thin sliver of blade extending. If the cap iron is set too close, the shaving will be crinkled. Perhaps a search on You Tube for a David Weaver video on cap iron setting will help. Steve Voigt or Derek Cohen also have valuable info on the subject. The close-set cap iron technique is cutting heavily into the high-angle frog technique thinking.

[Jerome Andrieux]

Thomas, considering the photos you posted, I would recommend using a scraper and shavings to get the specific area around the knots smooth.

Planes can work on this kind of knot, but if the edge gets damaged along its course over the hard bits of the knot, it may leave marks and/or tear out some loose / dead fiber around the gap.

I don't think you need a new tool for this job:
1. very sharp edge
2. on a #3 BD plane, try setting the chip breaker very close (10th of a mm)
3. on a #5 BU plane, try setting a 50° microbevel (62° total) and close the mouth tightly (twice the thickness you expect, let's say a 10th of a mm :)

I would not use a block plane, it's too difficult to push efficiently at 62°.
I would also avoid the "back bevel" on a BD plane, as it makes it difficult to adjust the chip breaker where it needs to be.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting! I'm assuming the shavings are basically abrading away the loose fibers?

This is just a guess as to what is taking place in changing grain. Going against the grain tends to lift fibers before it is severed or 'abraded away' leaving the fuzzy surface. Coming back from an opposing direction with as light a shaving as possible doesn't lift the behaving grain on a pass or two but it tames the fuzzy areas. This has worked for me often on swirly grained pine.

jtk

[Tyler Bancroft]

This is just a guess as to what is taking place in changing grain. Going against the grain tends to lift fibers before it is severed or 'abraded away' leaving the fuzzy surface. Coming back from an opposing direction with as light a shaving as possible doesn't lift the behaving grain on a pass or two but it tames the fuzzy areas. This has worked for me often on swirly grained pine.

jtk

I'm going to have to try that. Thanks Jim.

[Tom Trees]

As said your cap iron isn't close enough.


One thing that stands a big chance of hindering you immensely in using the cap iron is...
Letting go of the idea, that the front of the mouth has any input in holding down the fibres when a cap iron is involved.

The mouth must be large, if it's not, and the frog is set forward, it will give the impression that the cap iron is as close as it can possibly get.
Often the cap iron needs to be closer than what the plane will allow with the frog set forward, and the plane will chatter, and concertina the shavings, and if its
just enough to take a shaving...
It will be ridiculously difficult to push the plane with no benefit in any way, whatsoever.

I use two planes in which the cap iron is in effect, a no.5 1/2 which is set at 1/32" (perfectly centred camber to suit),
and a no.4 with a 1/64" (barely noticeable camber that is only noticeable when paired with the cap iron)
Cambers get no more pronounced that that, but they may well get slightly lesser camber than the 1/32" if a tough batch calls for it.
It isn't a big deal to go back to the previous camber for the 5 1/2 for a new batch, but it would be wasteful and in-efficent if I had only one plane iron to do it all.


Another thing I forgot to mention is the leading edge of the cap iron,
Most folks mention that it works best between 50 and 80 degrees.
I shoot for just over 50 degrees as Weaver does,
For me, it gives a more forgivable adjustment when using the plane.

Use wax, candles what I use, yes everybody mentions this, but a more noticeable thing now, as the cap iron shaving has more downforce in the cut.

David Weaver has some good demonstrations if you want to youtube.
Yet still, he is one of the only folks on YT that will set you straight,
Its rather hard to believe really,

I urge you to study his videos over anyone else's bad advice on youtube.
That's if you want to plane anything without scraping any flat surface ever again.

Knots or reversing grain will be a thing of the past, and you will plane any such boards in the exact same fashion
as you would with an extremely complainant board, in rows from start to finish, no spot planing out from knots or anything like that.

Have fun making super chatoyant straight shavings with a finish to be delighted with.

Tom

[ken hatch]

I will add: Richard Maguire over at "The English Woodworker" has a very good video showing how to use the cap iron to control tear out. Richard is a classic trained no nonsense hand tool wood worker that makes things with hand tools besides he is a hoot.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

For smoothing hard woods with highly interlocked grain (this is my staple fare) ...

1. BU planes .... use a 50 degree bevel (=62 degree cutting angle). The primary bevel needs to be 25 degrees in order to add the 50 degree secondary bevel (using a honing guide) to create a slight camber (all smoothing planes need to have a slight camber to prevent tracks). With high cutting angles, the mouth of the plane is irrelevant, and can be left open.

2. BD planes ... with single blades (no chipbreaker) need to be high cutting angle. Either a 60 degree bed (ala HNT Gordon) or a 15 degree back bevel (on a common angle bed) to create a 60 degree cutting angle).

3. BD planes ... with double iron (i.e. chipbreaker). Set the chipbreaker at between 0.4 and 0.5mm from the edge of the blade. The leading edge of the chipbreaker is around 50 degrees. You can tell if you have set it too close as the shavings become wrinkly and concertina. Too far away and the shavings continue to be curly and do not straighten up. Leave the mouth open to free up the escapement.

4. A sharp blade and a very fine cut/shaving reduce tearout (but do not necessarily prevent it).

5. Cabinet scraper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Guest]

How much thickness do you have left to work with? Is one side flat and suitable to be mounted to the understructure already? You can't just plane and plane and plane until the surface is smooth. You need a dead flat and out-of-wind side to mount to the rest of the desk first, then you worry about the show side, often this leaves you with not a whole lot left to work with.

If you're already very close to planned thickness, with one side completely flat, then I'd scrape and sand the show side. If you have meat left, then try some of the other solutions that have been presented.

Every plane pass has a purpose. You can't just start removing material and hope it all works out.

[Jim Matthews]

My "Go-to" tool for interlocked or reversing grain is a floor scraper. Two of my last three projects featured heavily figured wood.

My high angle planes were no more effective than closely set cap iron planes.

Card scrapers and cabinet scrapers were difficult to control. Carbide scrapers left tracks. The venerable floor scraper has sufficient adjustment to get a curled shaving. Relieve the blade corners, preferably with a slight camber.

http://imgur.com/gallery/JShuy6R

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/scrapers/45784-veritas-ball-joint-scrapers

[Thomas Crawford]

How much thickness do you have left to work with? Is one side flat and suitable to be mounted to the understructure already? You can't just plane and plane and plane until the surface is smooth. You need a dead flat and out-of-wind side to mount to the rest of the desk first, then you worry about the show side, often this leaves you with not a whole lot left to work with.

If you're already very close to planned thickness, with one side completely flat, then I'd scrape and sand the show side. If you have meat left, then try some of the other solutions that have been presented.

Every plane pass has a purpose. You can't just start removing material and hope it all works out.

Yes I have plenty to work with - its basically down to spot areas that need touched up. The majority of the panel is ready to go. Its mostly around the seams of the glue-up. For the panels I could probably finish out with the card scraper and little sanding.

Tommy

[Thomas Crawford]

I went ahead and ordered a Veritas BU smoother with an extra blade, the one with the parallel sides.

[Thomas Crawford]

I put a 50 degree secondary bevel on one of my irons for the BU Jack. Its a huge improvement vs the Bedrock #3 with cap iron set very closely.

Is there an advantage to closing up the mouth super tight on the BU planes?

[Tyler Bancroft]

I put a 50 degree secondary bevel on one of my irons for the BU Jack. Its a huge improvement vs the Bedrock #3 with cap iron set very closely.

Is there an advantage to closing up the mouth super tight on the BU planes?

It definitely helps control tearout at lower cutting angles - but if you're at 62 degrees, I'm not sure what benefit you'd get.

[Thomas Crawford]

It definitely helps control tearout at lower cutting angles - but if you're at 62 degrees, I'm not sure what benefit you'd get.

I moved it around but didn't really see any difference.

[Thomas Crawford]

I really like the little smoother. Cambered with a ~50 degree micro-bevel works great. Thanks Derek C. for his write-up on his website about cambering bevel-up planes: https://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

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[Warren Mickley]

I put a 50 degree secondary bevel on one of my irons for the BU Jack. Its a huge improvement vs the Bedrock #3 with cap iron set very closely.

Is there an advantage to closing up the mouth super tight on the BU planes?

If you are not getting a better surface with the #3 plane than you are with a 62 degree plane, the cap iron is not right.