House selling woes

[Donald Kennedy]

We're trying to sell a house away from here, but it seems like every day appears another "problem" issue making me think it is all a scam! We re-shingled, house and garage; replaced garage door (God knows it was needed) repaired the interior, and now "they" say the well is shot and the EFIS has moisture.

Okay, our well gives excellent water, but not at the rate specified by who? Greene County or a well digger or a plumber wanting to install city water? EFIS has moisture? Well, yeah! All sidings get moisture so, what now?

Seems to me they don't much want the house, but "they" swear they do.

So, is this kind of haggling normal?

Donk

[Jim Becker]

It's somewhat normal for an inspection to come up with some issues when selling a home and yes, that's part of the negotiation. However, repeatedly coming back with more and more things is troubling and may be an attempt to take advantage of the fact that you are not local. You and/or your realtor really need to set some boundaries on what you are or are not willing to do. Redoing the roof for both the house and garage and doing the other repairs/replacements you mentioned seems to be reasonable for a home that's been around for awhile. But at some point, a line needs to be drawn.

[Mike Henderson]

I second what Jim said. House inspectors always come back with at least a page of "defects". It seems they think if they don't have a page of defects the buyer won't think they did a good job.

I sold a house and there was the usual page of defects (very minor). The buyer sent me a demand that I repair "everything". I replied that I was not going to repair anything - if they wanted the house they could take it as is. They came back with a list of about three things that I did fix and they bought the house.

Mike

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Just say no if you don’t want to do it.

A little odd that someone would join just to post this type of question though. It is not a real estate forum.

[Donald Kennedy]

Yes, I know, but there are people here who know stuff and the other responses have helped. And, where does one go to get advice on stuff like wells and siding finishes? Then too, I've NEVER had to depend on any tradesmen for anything other than taking out trees. So, sort of uncharted territory for me.

[Stan Calow]

Around here, if an FHA or VA loan is involved, the lender will not make a loan if the well is not up to standard, regardless of buyers willingness to go forward. Maybe true for other lenders as well.

[Bruce King]

As a retired home inspector, it may seem like we enjoy finding problems but we don’t. We get paid the same. Fact is, very few houses have less than 15 issues. Best ones are after an inspection where issues were truly repaired. New houses have more issues than most 10 yr old houses. EIFS has usually been removed by now. When they say moisture they mean that the wood behind it has moisture. (If they inspected it correctly). Holes must be made to jab a special moisture meter in past the EIFS. I used an IR camera on the interior which finds a lot and told the buyer to hire a stucco specialist to check for moisture in the walls. The liability is very high for any type of stucco homes.
There should be a time period for the buyers to do their inspections.

The worst things other than the normal Roof, Plumbing, misc electrical, misc plumbing, HVAC are wet crawlspaces, bad windows, Zinsco and FPE StabLok panels, EFIS, polybutylene piping, aluminum wiring, fungi, foundation problems and grading problems.

[Bruce King]

Agents get sued more than home inspectors. The smart ones will require the buyer to have items fixed by a licensed contractor. Homeowner repairs are usually a total disaster. I sold a townhouse once that had a defective treated 2x12 stair stringer outside. The inspector noted a spot the size of a silver dollar but when I started probing it was about 6x8. 6 feet off the ground and no roof drainage hitting it. I knew to rush before they asked for replacement, made a template, grabbed a big 2x12 and made it longer at the top so two structural bolts would fit. Nailed it up with twice the nails needed. Looked beautiful. No one saw it yet because they didn’t know it was fixed. Got the call two days later, they want it replaced. I said nope, it’s better than new. Never heard back, they bought it for asking price.

[Nathan Johnson]

My first thought was government-backed loan also.
But I keep hearing the housing market is on fire. Shouldn't a seller be able to find a line of less picky buyers?

[glenn bradley]

Boiler plate response around here is that the only things I will fix are health and safety issues. Termite damage is separate. A crack in the driveway, mediocre sprinkler coverage, a rickety fence? Tough. Last place I sold, the potential buyer just couldn't understand why I wouldn't fix a roof that had already been repaired years ago but, the stains still showed in the garage. Sent 'em packing and sold to the next buyer for more. There must be a leprechaun that watches out for home sellers ;-)

[Bruce King]

CA Inspectors are only required to write up things that affect the value of the house. That is so very wrong, how do they know the appraisers job. Generally though even the worst inspector should find the items not functioning properly. Agents love to say that something is functioning as intended even if it’s falling apart. After I got past the first 5 years of working for anyone I ended up with agents that are multimillionaires that wanted to protect their name. I also had a few builders hiring me to keep theirselves out of trouble. I ended up doing nothing but new construction the last 3 years.

[mike stenson]

Stuff like wells and septic are big ticket items. I've seen a lot of houses that had problems that the owners ignored, and didn't believe was a problem. Then again, I've repaired more than enough structural termite damage in my life too. I've both bought and sold houses recently. It's business, my advise is to simply treat it as such.

[Bill Dufour]

IS the Op in the states, which one, or what country at least?
I never heard of EFIS. From responses it seems to be used in the states? Is it still in use?
Bill D.

https://iclg.com/practice-areas/real-estate-laws-and-regulations/ireland

[Bruce King]

Yes, well and septic can be problematic but depends on what part of the country with wells and age of septic. The dumb banks started requiring dye test on septic back in the late 70s or early 80s. It required putting dye down a toilet and running a tremendous amount of water to see if the dye surfaced in the field area. It would often ruin the system since it was not designed for that much water in a short amount of time. The new problem might show up a few weeks after the new owners move in. Many houses are vacant when sold. Any home inspector who does a dye test needs his head tested. Agents have been known to dump bleach down a well on a vacant house in hopes to prevent a bacteria finding that might scare a buyer away. They also have needy contractors dispute some inspector findings as a favor so they can continue doing jobs for the realtors office. Some agents also tend to believe the sellers who claim to have experience with some trade and dispute an inspectors findings. The buyer ends up screwed and often sues the seller and agent. I worked in two states, uncountable townships, counties and cities so my experience is different from the patty cake inspector that hands out biscuits at the broker office. Licensing, enforcement and individual inspector abilities are all over the map. The problem is that you will never know for sure if the agent referral is for the best or just average Inspector. Online reviews are not reliable due to them being made to get a discount, made before they know what was missed etc. Some of the worst inspectors who are agents buddies buy their way out of trouble before a bad review is made. My experience showed that 90 percent of the realtors wanted just an average inspector and would even bad mouth good ones. It’s human nature in a business where high commissions are hanging in the balance.
edit: I was not a perfect inspector, no such thing as one. I never got asked for money and never got sued.

[Bruce King]

EIFS info, quite complicated.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exterior_insulation_finishing_system (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exterior_insulation_finishing_system)

[Thomas McCurnin]

So, is this kind of haggling normal?

Donk

Only if you want to make it normal. Honestly, in some communities its a seller's market, so sellers can say as is where is, other than certain state mandated safety stuff, like strapping down a water heater. If you're a buyer, and you don't ask, well, as my dad used to say, if you don't ask the answer is always no.

[Anuj Prateek]

We're trying to sell a house away from here, but it seems like every day appears another "problem" issue making me think it is all a scam! We re-shingled, house and garage; replaced garage door (God knows it was needed) repaired the interior, and now "they" say the well is shot and the EFIS has moisture.

Okay, our well gives excellent water, but not at the rate specified by who? Greene County or a well digger or a plumber wanting to install city water? EFIS has moisture? Well, yeah! All sidings get moisture so, what now?

Seems to me they don't much want the house, but "they" swear they do.

So, is this kind of haggling normal?

Donk

3 recent experiences. Decide what is normal. Excuse the long post.

We recently bought a house (a month back). We got inspection done before putting an offer to make it more lucrative. There were no major problems (~ 20k worth fixes). After escalations/negotiations we bought house for 50k more. This is in Vancouver (Coquitlam) area and it's a sellers market.

We sold our house in Seattle, right before COVID. We had already moved to Vancouver so agent handled everything. She advised us to do cosmetic stuff. We repainted the inside of the house, touched up all grouts, trimmed/shaped plants in yard, cleaned up pond/fountain etc. House did not have any major problems other than old roof with history of leak. We listed house as-is and disclosed everything we knew was wrong. House sold in a week or so. After escalations we made 60k more than our asking price. Agent did not entertain any offers with conditions (except finance and title).

In Coquitlam we found a house that we fell in love with right away. House is on steep grade and has a BIG yard full of large trees (we like that). House was listed at extreme of our budget. We got inspection done. Report mentioned problems with roof, some rot and sign of drain tile issues. We went back and forth with sellers and negotiated 40k. We sent an offer, with condition that we will conduct a drain inspection. Well inspection came back bad. There was damage to foundation due to water. Rough estimates were upwards of 100k (steep grade). So we went back and forth again on negotiations. Our take was that there are at least 150k worth of urgent fixes required, and sellers should meet us half way. Well sellers did not budge. We loved the house so much that we tried negotiating in various ways. Like fix roof and drop price by 20k, fix drain tiles and take asking price etc. This all took weeks and end result was that we could not arrive at a mutually acceptable offer. Well we moved on. House is still on market (4 months or so now). If this house was listed 200k less, then it would have sold quickly with escalations. If owners addressed all problems, same house would have sold for maybe 100k more than their current asking price.


Personally, if inspection report shows any of these, it will become red flag for me.

- Foundation problems
- Water damage or dampness
- Plumbing problems
- Roof problems
- Illegal/without permit large construction
- Electrical problems
- Pests

I would proceed with a house with problems like above only if I love the house too much, it's priced lower than market (super good deal) and I have cash to fix the problems.

[Jim Matthews]

Couldn't say what code is in your area but we have a requirement for flow rate and perc testing of septic within 5 years of a house listing date.

Wells must be tested at time of sale.

If you're like most homeowners - this sort of thing only gets attention when it fails.

In this market, houses are few. If you have priced near the tax assessment value - pass on fussy buyers.

[Lee Schierer]

Most banks around here insist on well and septic system tests if the property has them. Replacing a septic system requires permits and can cost upwards of $15 K.

I would never use an inspector recommended by the listing realtor. They are often partial to the sellers interest not the buyer. Hire your own inspector and check their references.

[William Chain]

We haggled a little when we bought our house. Home inspection turned up a list of stuff ranging from trivial details to a few required repairs (one was a septic baffle - that one I didn't bend on - fix it or we're done. They fixed it.). The owners met us on 2 out of 4 asks. We were fine with that. There's going to be back and forth, that is inevitable, but don't go nuts. There are no perfect houses, and there's no sense in trying to do every little thing they want. Nor is there any sense for asking for everything. Sounds like you've been pretty good as a seller. Now it's time to take it or leave it.

Our experience in this arena was good and bad. We moved in, and were promptly handed a book containing every receipt for everything done to the house for at least 20 years, which is great since the previous owners were only in here maybe 3 years? Divorce, so we managed to sweep in at a great time to buy. That being said, there were things in the house that were just long term wear and tear that have all managed to fail or require attention on our watch. First it was a siding leak that was identified on the inspection, but wow was it worse than they thought. Ok, several grand later, that's done. That was the first summer in the house. Then we managed to get through a summer with just some tree branches coming down in the yard and the associated cleanup work. Then the next summer the well pump failed (it was in the ground 12 years, so it honestly owed us nothing) - and yes, short of knowing ahead of time exactly when that was bound to fail, what to do about it other than just replace when it dies? Then another summer of relative quiet, just stupid things here and there. This summer it's the septic pump, and we're awaiting that replacement as I type. House was built in 1988 and this is certainly the original pump. I'm ok with 32 years on that. It sucks to lay out big ticket items every summer, but that's owning a home. This is another thing that short of pulling it preemptively because I can sense when it's going to fail, you fix it when it fails. I can't say I climb down in that tank every month to have a look see.

Now I'm helping my elderly parents transition to a 55+ community and we're emptying out and selling their 1908 home in a fairly hot market area. There IS going to be some crazy stuff in that house, its has 112 years on it. Hell, there are rooms where there are still gas lamps on the wall. They stayed for historical curiosity. We'll be reasonable, but in that market, we're not going back and forth. Just not gonna do it. My parents have addressed stuff over their 45 years in there. All of it? No. Most? Yes.

[Jim Becker]

In this area, it's the Townships that require the septic testing when a title transfer is going to happen. That's why we ended up with a brand new septic system when we bought this property in 1999. (It had to be updated in 2008 when our addition went on, but fortunately it was upsizing the mound/field...our is essentially a sand mound that's below grade...as the tank and pump house were already up-sized and appropriate) They are very, very picky about it, too. Some properties don't even qualify for on-site drain anymore and have to store effluent which is picked up regularly by a pump truck service. The folks across the street are in that situation as their lot is too small for a full system that's sized for the house/bathroom count.

[mike stenson]

Most banks around here insist on well and septic system tests if the property has them. Replacing a septic system requires permits and can cost upwards of $15 K.

I would never use an inspector recommended by the listing realtor. They are often partial to the sellers interest not the buyer. Hire your own inspector and check their references.

Only $15k? The failed leach field (which supposedly passed inspection) ran about $20k to replace (not counting the interior damage from the backup, insurance covered that).

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Donald and welcome to the Creek.

Not knowing the location of Greene County a quick consult with Dr. Google indicates it is a county name in at least five states.

When my well flow slows it is usually time to change the filters.

Buyers want to cut their cost as much as possible. Sellers want to get the most they can. This is what negotiating is all about.

Things to consider is how long has the home been on the market and how the market is in your area.

My former residence was sold a few years ago, almost a decade after moving since it was a rental for a while. In stead of doing thousands of dollars in repairs we sold it as is through a broker who contacted us. We may have been to squeeze more dollars out of the deal, but for us it was a relief to be out from under it without having to make one more mortgage payment.

Your decision is best tempered by what is going on in your local market. Is there only one party interested in your home? Is the housing market stale or is it hot?

When we sold our California home, the market was very hot.

Sometimes when the buyer is asking for the moon it is time to do a little sprucing up and talk about having an open house.

jtk

[Bruce King]

It’s a good idea to have a check valve in the sewer line. Insurance companies also offer coverage for sewer backups.
During a prolonged drought once in the Charlotte NC area there were some wells going dry. I got concerned about the potential cost to my clients and called a well company. They said the well pumps could be lowered a few feet to get plenty of water.

[Jim Becker]

Only $15k? The failed leach field (which supposedly passed inspection) ran about $20k to replace (not counting the interior damage from the backup, insurance covered that).
$25K in 1999 paid by the previous owner and another $20K by us in 2008 to up-size the pressure field capacity as part of our home addition project...

[mike stenson]

$25K in 1999 paid by the previous owner and another $20K by us in 2008 to up-size the pressure field capacity as part of our home addition project...

Yea, I got by pretty cheap in all honesty (kind of helps to have friends), but it sure stung to have it back up 10 days after occupancy.

But, if you're wondering why buyers might be nervous about wells, or anything under ground.. they ain't cheap. Your EFIS being too moist, same deal.. the worry is that rot is going on behind it (not my house, cause well... asphalt stabilized adobe doesn't really care if it's wet).

[Bruce King]

Mike, what does your tag line refer to? Oscilloscope?

[mike stenson]

Mike, what does your tag line refer to? Oscilloscope?
Bruce, I'm an engineer by trade, so it's a phrase that's used (too?) often professionally. It refers to the scope of a project growing (sometimes uncontrollably) as it goes along.

[Peter Kelly]

We're trying to sell a house away from here, but it seems like every day appears another "problem" issue making me think it is all a scam! We re-shingled, house and garage; replaced garage door (God knows it was needed) repaired the interior, and now "they" say the well is shot and the EFIS has moisture.

Okay, our well gives excellent water, but not at the rate specified by who? Greene County or a well digger or a plumber wanting to install city water? EFIS has moisture? Well, yeah! All sidings get moisture so, what now?Greene County New York?

You'll get a fair amount of BS from home inspectors. Vast majority of them seem to identify the same "complaints" over and over. "Low water pressure" on a well is usually of them.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

After undue pressure from my other half and alot of grief, we put our farm up for sale year ago. I know a guy who sells a lot of farms to Amish and gets top dollar, but she wanted to go with a person dating her co worker. Well the guy is nice enough, and he brought at least a half dozen prospective buyers through, Since we have animals, here I stayed up at the neighbor's place where I could see things. Not one person went out to look at the fields. Not one went into the woods to see where the corners were. They never even checked the fencing to see what shape it is in. So then I start getting messages from other realtors representing those buyers. Would I consider putting a new roof on the second house. ? It was new three years ago. So was the siding. Then I get a call again, same buyer, wnats to know why there is a garbage disposal in the kitchen. Tries to tell me it is illegal to have a disposal on a well. No it isn't I already checked when the house was built. Then they want me to convey all the equipment, transfer warranties, etc. Yes for a proper price. The this buyer calls personally demanding to know why there are two wells on the property. IDK here when I bought the place. Once has never been used in 30 years. Then the nut wants me to pay for a subdivision and recapture taxes on converting farm land to development. Easily 40 or 50 K. Tell him no. farm goes as is. If I wanted to develop it, I would do it and keep the profits. Next thing I know I get a call from the local zoning officer questioning my sewage system, proximity to the well etc. I tell the zoning officer that the sewage enforcement officer designed the system and it was built to his specs and inspected just 3 years ago when the new house was built. Next a neighbor calls and tells me my fence is across the property line and to move it. So I grab the survey file and go out to that corner. There is indeed a small triangle that we don't know who owns because of a mistake carried through in old deeds, and I show him that I did not fence in that small triangle and evn where the other survey stakes are located. Neighbor tells me he got several calls from this buyer raising all kinds of rucus. So I call the agent for buyer and explain that all negotiations are off and I would not sell to the guy under any circumstances for any price. Next I get a letter from the state Human Relations commission about a complaint that I am discriminating against the buyers in housing......He claims because he is Cherokee. Well he does live in Ga. What the hell did I get into now. So I log onto Ancestry.com and sure enough the guy is a member and has a tree up on line. All of his great grandparents came from Europe. I send that to the HRC and we never hear from him again. So We decide we can't find a place as nice with lowe taxes any where near here and take the farm off the market. I run into the guy I wanted to list with initially. He confirms that we were wise to take it off the market. He think the market will really heat up within about two years after a vaccine. Then he starts to tell me about some of the crap he has had to deal with trying to sell properties. One seller was upset thinking he agreed to sell too cheap so he sabotaged the well to try and get the buyer to walk away. A buyer who did similar tactics. A seller that knew about shallow graves in the back yard and never mentioned any thing. Buyers discovered the skeletons when excavating for a patio. A PO'd ex father in law who went by the house just before the settlement date and clogged drains and turned everything on. Another, an ex husband found out his ex wife went on a cruise with her new flame, she was to come back two days before settlement, so he opened all the windows and doors during a period of zero degree weather. Heating oil ran out pipes froze, walls and floor s ruined. In one case neighbors wanted to adversely affect the sale, kept throwing old beef liver up on the kitchen roof in summer time.. Hoping they find a vaccine real soon.

[Bruce King]

Greene County New York?

You'll get a fair amount of BS from home inspectors. Vast majority of them seem to identify the same "complaints" over and over. "Low water pressure" on a well is usually of them.

The problem is that the well pressure switches come preset to a low number and then subtract a partially clogged filter and improper pressure on the pressure tank.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

So I call the agent for buyer and explain that all negotiations are off and I would not sell to the guy under any circumstances for any price. Next I get a letter from the state Human Relations commission about a complaint that I am discriminating against the buyers in housing......He claims because he is Cherokee. Well he does live in Ga. What the hell did I get into now. So I log onto Ancestry.com and sure enough the guy is a member and has a tree up on line. All of his great grandparents came from Europe. I send that to the HRC and we never hear from him again.

I dealt with that nonsense when I sold my last house. We went with an offer that waived inspection, and took the place as is. Another agent then started emailing that he was going to sue for discrimination if we did not sell to his client. I told our agent to just ignore it.

[Bruce King]

There is a situation where refusing to sell can make you liable still to pay the agents commission since they found a buyer. Not sure how to wiggle out of this situation.

[Brian Elfert]

There is a situation where refusing to sell can make you liable still to pay the agents commission since they found a buyer. Not sure how to wiggle out of this situation.

The buyer's agent I used would have required me to pay them their share of the commission if I bought a lot and built my own house. The construction of the house would have cost me $200,000 so I would have owed them something like $7,000 out of my pocket! The seller of the lot would pay the commission for the lot itself, but of course not for the house I would have built. I haven't read the contract with the buyer's agent well enough to see this clause.

This was one of the reasons I decided not to build. I am glad I did not build because the location was further out and harder to get to. The buyer's agent didn't get much commission in the end because I bought a $150,000 foreclosure and Freddie Mac paid a lower commission than typical. The agent couldn't charge me commission on the $100,000 I spent on renovations.

[Mike Henderson]

There is a situation where refusing to sell can make you liable still to pay the agents commission since they found a buyer. Not sure how to wiggle out of this situation.

Yes, that can happen. The agent is hired to find you a willing buyer at the price and conditions you specify. If they bring you such a willing buyer and you refuse to sell the agent can generally demand his/her commission. I think most agents wouldn't push that but they could. [That is, refuse to sell to anyone, not to one specific person. They've spent time and money attempting to fulfill their part of the listing contract, which is to bring you a buyer. To have you renege after they've done their part would be unfair. In your case, you don't have a buyer ready to go. You have a buyer demanding all kind of changes. That could give you an out. You should reply to the buyer's demands by saying that you will sell the place "as is". Take it or leave it. But talk to an attorney.]

Under certain conditions, if you have a valid signed purchase contract, the buyer can sue for specific performance and force you to sell. But that's really rare. More likely they'd sue for damages.

Mike

[Brian Elfert]

Part of what I liked when I bought my house is the septic had been replaced three years prior. I seem to recall the seller (a bank due to foreclosure) had a septic inspection done. It was the only good part of the entire house.

I had a buyer's inspection done, but only to see if there was a major structural defect I missed. I knew there was a huge list of repairs needed. The inspector earned his money as the report was 51 pages long. I think he really only found one item I didn't already know about. The deck was a death trap. The inspector actually said that both of us probably shouldn't be standing on the deck. (Deck was one of the first things to go.)