Woodworking for a living

[Bruce King]

How many of you are doing this for a living?
I don’t want to but just noticing lots of big tool owners on here.

[Stewart Lang]

You might find that those who own the big, nice fancy tools just do it for fun, because they have a main job that lets them afford them. There are exceptions though.

Another factor is often times you can find bigger, used machines for the same price as a smaller, new one, so in that case it's like "Why not just buy the big one" :)

[Ben Rivel]

You might find that those who own the big, nice fancy tools just do it for fun, because they have a main job that lets them afford them.
Exactly. The "buy your last tool first", "buy once, cry once" and "higher quality holds its value better" mentality definitely applies here.

[Stewart Lang]

Exactly. The "buy your last tool first", "buy once, cry once" and "higher quality holds its value better" mentality definitely applies here.

Going along with that thought, I've personally splurged and bought some very nice handtools along my woodworking periods, and eventually ended up selling some for probably 80-90% of what I paid, even though I used them for a few years. Looking back on that, buying low/mid-range tools would have ended up costing me more after it was all said and done, because they would have been harder to sell and I would have gotten a lot less back out of them.

[Jim Becker]

The size and/or assortment of tools isn't an indicator that one is doing woodworking for a living. We do have quite a few folks here who are employed that way and they have a wide range of shop setups and situations. Some of them are quite active here, too. By the same token, there are quite a few folks here who are hobbyists that enjoy big iron and have very nice shop setups.

My shop evolved through several iterations and is well equipped because I was fortunate to be able to make that investment long before retirement was in the picture. For most of the last 25 years, it was pure hobby work, although in the last ten years or so, I did take on a few commission jobs making equestrian tack trunks. When I retired from full time work not quite three years ago, I decided to do more commission work and created a real business to do so. But I don't earn a living from this...it's just for "mad money" and part time. I don't need the income. Most of that work is subcontract to other makers, too, and is quite enjoyable. I may or may not continue in this way going forward. It's hard to say at this point.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm a full timer now. Used to be a hobby, I bought some nice machines with the old career, then when that needed to change I decided to make my hobby my job. As for the big machines, what I find is that I actually had better taste in machines when I was a hobbiest. Now they all have to pay their way, so no more "just because I want one" purchases. My woodworking intent when I started this full time has adapted into more carpentry than expected, so while I have a big shop full of cool stuff, the main revenue is from building houses. There is enough millwork, cabinets and custom projects that come out of the shop to justify keeping it, for now at least. However now I dream of better finishing rooms, drying racks, a better forklift, etc. Boring.

[Tom M King]

Woodworking is one category, on the list of things that I do for a living. I don't do it for a hobby.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I live about 20 miles west of Lancaster PA. Sine available farmland is increasingly expensive, the Amish have branched out into wood working. Generally in shops on farms already belonging to family. My wife has purchased several custom made pieces from the Amish. Not always solid hardwood, but certainly no press board. Been pleased with everything but how much they charge for the alterations to a standard piece in production. There are literally 100s of furniture shops and they make everything from birdhouses and porch crafts to fancy dining room furniture. At one time, Amish would only use air powered tools and engine driven tools. Somewhere along the way, the Ordnung was changed and they are permitted to use electricity, as long as it does not come from the grid. So many now have big diesel generators to run their shop equipment. They waste nothing, even the saw dust and scraps are used. they will also work long hours for low wages. No body in this area could start a wood working business with out having some kind of hook, or special product. Even if you do, within a few weeks, the Amish will have got their hands on your product and set up to copy your product.

[Bruce King]

I knew two guys from around there, one closed his cabinet shop due to the Amish but said he also needed regular hours. The other guy sold some huge oak trees to an Amish guy, got big bucks. When the Amish cut them down the whole inside was rot. They left them beside a road.

[Mark Bolton]

Not sure what qualifies as woodworking but full time shop here.

[Zachary Hoyt]

My business is building banjos and other stringed instruments, so it's partly or mostly woodworking but there's some metal work and other stuff involved. I am part time, about 20 hours a week on average. I'm planning to buy a house and move away and transition to full time in a year or two, when my current duties at the farm where I work and live are no longer needed. I'm making enough from my current part time level of work to live on, so I hope that when I switch to full time and have more time to keep more things in stock that will help my business continue to grow. Most of my tools are secondhand, but I did buy a new drum sander and small bandsaw and ring roller a couple of years ago because I wasn't finding what I wanted in the local used market, even after years of watching for them.

[johnny means]

I'm a full timer. IMO, all the best set-ups are owned by hobbiests. As said earlier, it's harder to justify nice things when ROI is the primary purpose.

[Tony Joyce]

I'm sure I'm the odd man out, but I did cabinets(commercial & residential) & architectural millwork for about forty five years. Now retired and still doing woodworking and finishing on the side. My hobby is also woodworking, I enjoy doing and learning new things. I still have all my machinery from when I was working full time, plus added a CNC router two years ago. I get to spend about thirty hours a week on my hobby.:D

As an aside the boss I worked for about five years ago, for five years. Ran a lumber business, is retired and now living in Mt Pleasant,SC.

Tony

[Andrew Hughes]

It’s a losing prospect out in my area. There’s many places offering whole bedroom sets starting at 600 dollars.
Some don’t care if they have a chest of drawers that’s stapled together. Part wood part whatever.
I completely understand the need for cheap furniture for a new family. It just has to be functional and for the most part it will last just fine.
The good news is the day of the artistic wood craftsman has begun.

[Joe Jensen]

There are lots and lots of these threads over the years. I just had a new thought. If you see the prices in a store, gallery, or at an art fair remember that the retailer is getting maybe 50% of the price. Finding the customer is a big part of the business. You might want to talk with some home builders to see what they pay for cabinets. We just built a house and our custom home builder was most comfortable with the cabinet shops he trusts will hold to the schedule, and that means those who can adjust their schedules on the fly. We choose a different shop whose work I would be proud to call my own. The builder was very uncomfortable put our architect was confident. In the end we got cabinets built to furniture standards (beaded face frames with inset doors) and the shop was never in the critical path of the schedule. Anyway find out what builders pay and what they look for beyond price.

[Mark Bolton]

It’s a losing prospect out in my area. There’s many places offering whole bedroom sets starting at 600 dollars.
Some don’t care if they have a chest of drawers that’s stapled together. Part wood part whatever.
I completely understand the need for cheap furniture for a new family. It just has to be functional and for the most part it will last just fine.
The good news is the day of the artistic wood craftsman has begun.

So does this mean you are profitable and growing your business exponentially making bespoke uber crafted work? Are you flooded with backorders?

[Andrew Hughes]

Thanks for asking Mark. No there’s no business to grow in my area there are many stores selling furniture made in Mexico,China,India.
Im not sure about cabinet shops I do talk to people I meet at Peterman lumber and they are struggling to find work.
The only choices left to someone in my area if they want to work with wood is to be artistic. It’s not a bad gig I don’t worry about what I make to pay my bills. I also don’t have the pressure. I get to keep using skills I have.
Hows your business doing.

[Ben Rivel]

Going along with that thought, I've personally splurged and bought some very nice handtools along my woodworking periods, and eventually ended up selling some for probably 80-90% of what I paid, even though I used them for a few years. Looking back on that, buying low/mid-range tools would have ended up costing me more after it was all said and done, because they would have been harder to sell and I would have gotten a lot less back out of them.
Oh Ill add another to that, I have MADE money from buying tools, never getting around to using them and ending up selling them in brand new or like new condition. A lot of higher end brands increase their prices annually and as they do that the resale value goes up. If you're good at finding deals in the forefront and getting supposedly fixed priced tools for less than retail and end up selling them years later after their prices have gone up a lot more you can actually make money off power tools sometimes! lol Who'd have thought?!

[Kevin Jenness]

So you want to be a cabinetmaker? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

[Bruce King]

I'm sure I'm the odd man out, but I did cabinets(commercial & residential) & architectural millwork for about forty five years. Now retired and still doing woodworking and finishing on the side. My hobby is also woodworking, I enjoy doing and learning new things. I still have all my machinery from when I was working full time, plus added a CNC router two years ago. I get to spend about thirty hours a week on my hobby.:D

As an aside the boss I worked for about five years ago, for five years. Ran a lumber business, is retired and now living in Mt Pleasant,SC.

Tony

Tony, I have bought and ordered lumber from where you worked, Steve Wall Lumber.
Not sure I met you or Steve though, hope to run into him here in Mt P. Clint is up there doing a great job too.

[Bruce King]

For those that live in a populated area you can get the Nextdoor app to communicate with neighbors, mine is linked to 41 neighborhoods. I posted my end tables on there under the title Covid Projects. Within a week I had people wanting 4 end tables and a bed. I turned down the bed job and scared away the others with the price. If I was needing work I could have handled it differently. Just an idea to get work.

[William Hodge]

I am a professional woodworker. I have 35 years experience, 24 as a business owner. My business model is no debt, no employees, and make stuff that lets me add as much value as possible to the raw material. I buy high quality wood wholesale for about $6. per board foot average, cut it up into little pieces and put it back together, and sell it for up to $200. per board foot. Average is about $110. The product is custom solid wood house and building parts, to match existing. No sheet goods, no spraying.

I like this forum, because I see people going to great lengths to make decent stuff, on a budget.

With all this experience in the field, I can offer one piece of advice.
Stop fussing with Magic Table Wax, and buy a dehumidifier.

[Jim Becker]

Like any kind of business, successfully supporting oneself requires that business to "have a plan", "work the plan" and have a clear purpose and benefit to the market its pursuing. Youz gotz to make what folkz wantz. And at a price that "your" customers want to pay rather than acquire from someone else because of the value you add to their experience/world. That absolutely means NOT pursuing everyone...some folks just are not your customer. Example...I sometimes make very nice equestrian tack trunks for folks on commission. I get $800-1600 for them, depending on features, etc. I'm not in any way, shape or form trying to compete with the people slapping together boxes from home center plywood and pre-milled pine and selling them for $300-500. If that's what someone wants to buy, there are plenty of people they can go to. If they want furniture quality and are willing to pay for it, I'm the right source. Yes, I don't sell many of them in a year. That's ok. My customers are happy and I get more business because of it. Even if I were dependent on the business for income, I'd still choose to set my standards and stick by them.

I've been having this kind of conversation with my younger daughter who is a senior in college and wants to have her own boutique business in the future. She's quickly learning that you don't just hang out your shingle and have folks knocking at the door to make you a multi-millionaire. :)

[Richard Coers]

For those that live in a populated area you can get the Nextdoor app to communicate with neighbors, mine is linked to 41 neighborhoods. I posted my end tables on there under the title Covid Projects. Within a week I had people wanting 4 end tables and a bed. I turned down the bed job and scared away the others with the price. If I was needing work I could have handled it differently. Just an idea to get work.

I've been selling work for 43 years. I have yet to make a great return on work for friends and neighbors. I had to work hard to meet the .1% or less that appreciate hand made and came to me, because of me. Those were the ones that I made a fine living from.

[Jim Dwight]

My full time job was selling electrical equipment, by education I am a mechanical engineer. I am retired now and my pension + social security is more than what my dog and I spend. Let's me help the kids or other worthy causes a little. But I have always done woodworking as a hobby. My job was to do one part of a project that maybe 1,000 people would do something on. I could do my part well and the project still get totally messed up. When I make a piece of furniture or a cabinet, it is all on me. If my kids or I like it, great. If not, the store always has more wood.

I used to get by with fairly inexpensive tools. My shop is small (14x24) so I will never have a lot of tools but I am equipping it with some nicer tools. I have a PCS and domino, I just bought a Jet band saw that is highly rated. I may still upgrade my planner but it will have to be another lunchbox to fit in the space available. But I can make what my kids and I think are nice pieces. They sleep on beds I made as does one of my grandkids. They eat at tables and sit on chairs I made. I need some more pieces for my house but once that is done I might stop turning down requests to make things for other people. I don't need the money but I function better if I have a project going on. I don't work that hard anymore but like to put in a few hours each day, hopefully before it gets too hot. But sometimes I get into it and ignore the heat, for awhile.

[Bruce King]

I know what you mean about the joy of working alone. I used to work on very complex equipment where we had three shifts a day. Coming to work and seeing a smoldering pile of crap was not fun or almost fixing something but run out of time and find out the next day no one listened to what you told them. 20 years of that and I found new career.

[andy bessette]

In the mid '70's I left a safe career in engineering design to become self employed.

My specialty is customizing yachts, with more than half my efforts being custom woodwork. Many other boat building skills have been involved, including plumbing, electrical, etc. But more and more I have developed my metal working abilities, since adding a lathe, milling machine, more, and teaching myself to use them, mostly because I always wanted to.

My happiest times seem to be just working in my shop alone. Now, at 76, I look back and realize that I was right in thinking that continually challenging yourself and learning new skills are what enable you to stay interested and excited to keep producing.

[Bruce King]

A neighbor has this for sale, redesigned armoire.
Can go in spaces other than the kitchen.
Might be a new popular thing.

[Jim Becker]

Andy, what you did is exactly one of the points I believe I made earlier...you found a particular niche that you could fill in the business and made good on it!

[Robert D Evans]

There's no way for a small shop to compete with mass produced furniture makers. I can't buy the materials at the same price they do. There is a small market for custom pieces to fit specific spaces. I've built a number of custom bay window seats that fit the opening. One specifically comes to mind. I built one for a woman out of oak. She had oak cabinets in her kitchen and wanted the window seat to match. She wanted 2 deep drawers in the middle and a raised panel door on each side. Dovetail drawers, 100 lb self closing hinges, solid wood raised panels, perfect joints. This was a thing of beauty. She said she wanted to finish it herself, which was fine with me. I stopped by her house a couple of months lather and noticed that she had painting the window seat white. Ughhhh!!! Barbarians.

[Stan Calow]

Hobbyist here. Didn't somebody do a poll here once to see the percentages of pro vs hobbyist?

[Jack Frederick]

So many excellent comments. Retired now, Hobbyist, self employed for 40+ yrs. I couldn't keep a job. So many times I have heard that, "Work at something you love and you will never work another day in your life." That may be so, but it is also true that, "Nothing can cure a passion for something faster than having to make a living at it." You need to have the business chops or you can chase your tail around, work like h*** and have nothing. You can do that with the chops too. Many of the posters here identified a specific target market, banjos, ships, etc and have developed success. Note I do not say "found" success. It is one thing to make it, but you have to be able to get it to market. It...is...not...easy! I have a great shop and excellent tools all paid for by receipts from my business not related to my hobby.

[Andrew Seemann]

I'm a full timer. IMO, all the best set-ups are owned by hobbiests. As said earlier, it's harder to justify nice things when ROI is the primary purpose.

I can relate to this. My mother's side of the family has a small retail greenhouse business, fairly well known for high quality plants. As far as our equipment goes, any fine gardening snob worth their hand-forged trowel would leave nearly anything we have on the side of the road. It is a competitive, low margin industry, and it is hard to justify top of the line when good enough works as well and as long in practice. Knowing how to use your equipment matters a lot more than its price and status level.

[Bruce King]

Back when my Wife worked as a Nurse we went to several parties at Drs houses, they had some really unique furniture. I would ask where they got some of the pieces and it was, we had this shipped from Europe and I had a friend make this.... Wish I had a picture of that piece the friend made, it was beyond awesome, a demilune I think it was.

[Bruce King]

I can relate to this. My mother's side of the family has a small retail greenhouse business, fairly well known for high quality plants. As far as our equipment goes, any fine gardening snob worth their hand-forged trowel would leave nearly anything we have on the side of the road. It is a competitive, low margin industry, and it is hard to justify top of the line when good enough works as well and as long in practice. Knowing how to use your equipment matters a lot more than its price and status level.

I agree, with sharp blades and good alignment you can do fine work with 4K to 6k of new equipment or 3k to 4K of used equip, and some highly skilled woodworkers with lots of time on their hands can do it for much less.

[J.R. Rutter]

Close to 20 years of full time woodworking. Fortunately, was able to buy a lot of nice equipment during the housing bubble years...

[Will Blick]

Some great posts...
I think ww in the not too distant past, say 25-75 yrs ago, consisted of a lot of cabinets and some custom furniture and built ins.

With imports, CNC machines, IKEA, much of this work is no longer left for the small shop owner. This leaves a lot of ww's with no easy market for their skills.
The last kitchen I did on a flip... I bought IKEA cabinets.. they fully designed the job for $300, made a complete list of every component, and had the stuff delivered the next day. It was RTA, and the quality was not bad at all...the finish was like a white piano finish. A task only a robot could do and come out this nice... It would have taken me 10 hrs per door to match that finish ;), and even then, mine would be inferior. Its like an auto manufacturer paint job vs. a local shop working in a rented warehouse.

When talking with the IKEA designer, I asked him what their market is in SCal, he said everything... while my flip was a small condo, he said we do everything from small jobs such as this, and many $10M house remodels. It took the wind out of me, he had no reason to lie. IKEA has their own SCal cabinet building center to service the market, its that fruitful for them. As for me, if I was to build that same kitchen myself, my wage would have been under $3 hr for sure to match their price. Part of this is my high cost of materials vs. theirs. As others have mentioned, it seems "good enough" often wins today. that 1/10th of the 1% is a tiny market.

Some good advise on finding niche markets like Jims Trunks. Built-ins are always in demand, but as that video link did a great job mentioning... the avg person has a hard time digesting the cost of truly custom made pieces. Its such a time consuming process...specially dealing with customers! Sometimes u spend more hours with them, then you do building the piece!

When I lived in Vegas area, I noticed the LDS community, similar to Amish in how tight knit they are, dominated wood working. They paid kids zero (working for God) and worked them like dogs... they put lots of cabinet shops out of business. It was amazing with their high tech CNC's all lined up, just how many kitchens they can pump out in a month. When I toured their factory, I was just blown away. Amazing efficiency with super low labor costs, maybe less than over seas.

The barriers of entry into ww is just too low, many can enter, then automation / mass production has changed the game over the past 25 yrs. I personally would never try to sell commissioned pieces. I do like the idea of perfecting a few products and marketing them, as you might become highly efficient at making the same product over and over. I might try that after life gives me an opportunity to catch my breath.

[Patrick Kane]

I have a well equipped hobbyist shop paid for by a few years of commissions, flipping machines, reselling lumber etc. I can’t say i was ever tempted to quit the day job and enter this field as a profession. It’s a different/fulfilling way to make some side bucks, but that’s all it will ever be to me. I have a few more jobs in my future so I can save up for a larger shop with my opinion of “the best” equipment. To an extent, I think some of the pros are right that hobbyists care more about the machines than pros. I’m guilty of that. However, I’ve seen enough IRS auctions to know plenty of shops were/are running very expensive altendorf/Martin sliders, everything with tigerstops, massive widebelts, and every other expensive goodie you can think of. The top shelf stuff isn’t only for wealthy hobbyists, but you better be a busy high end shop to justify the $50,000 sliding saw. All of that said, I’ve never personally see a contemporary Martin product in the wild. All the local cabinet/woodworking shops I’ve visited locally are running 30 year old holz her or scmi etc.

[andy bessette]

Since this thread has become as much about the machinery I'll share what I have in my own shop.

My primary table saw is a Unisaw with carbide combination blade and Laguna sliding table. A second Unisaw wears a carbide rip blade. A contractors saw wears a 1/2" carbide dado. And fourth is an incredibly heavy and ancient Sears tilting table saw with a 4" thin kerf carbide blade. Adjacent to my primary table saw is a Craftsman radial arm saw with carbide blade that is used solely for 90 degree cuts, an indispensable machine.

Also you will find a 10" General International jointer with helical carbide cutterhead, a 13" Delta thickness plane, 16" MiniMax bandsaw (usually with 1/4" blade), 20" Agazzani bandsaw with 1" carbide blade, Delta variable speed jigsaw, Delta shaper, Performax 22/44 drum sander, mobile Delta dust collector, stationary Delta belt/disc sander, Wilton belt/disc sander, 24" State disc sander, Max and Ryobi spindle sanders, 2 Delta floor model drill presses, Chicago benchtop drill press, 3-1/2 hp custom table mounted Stanley router, Emglo portable air compressor, 60-gallon Porter-Cable vertical air compressor, more.

Among the metal working machines are an Index Super 55 milling machine, 12" x 35" Logan lathe, Baldor floor model carbide grinder, 7" x 10" Vectrax vertical/horizontal mitering bandsaw, 18" Vectrax vertical bandsaw, Miller Dynasty 200DX tig welder, Miller 211 mig welder, Hypertherm plasma cutter, 50-ton Carolina hydraulic press, JD-Square Model 32 electro-hydraulic tube bender, more.

The basic shop occupies an area the size of 2 double garages in tandem. Plus there is a connected storage room roughly the size of a single garage.

[Derek Cohen]

I visited a pro wood shop the other day. I was looking for laminated high pressure MDF for a router table top, and hoping for a cut off. The owner/sole woodworker was a really nice guy, in his 50s, very friendly and, when I told him what the MDF was for, he walked me around his shop and showed me all his machines. The machines were nothing special ... for a hobby woodworker such as myself. In fact, my machines by far outstripped his in quality and ability. I did not say what I had. We purchase according to a different set of rules.

It was clear to me that what he had was all what he needed to have. His machines did the job. What more does one need?

In my day job I am a shrink. I have been building all sort of things since I was a young child. I work with my head and I play with my hands. I have re-built cars, built and re-built surfboards and windsurfers. I just like building. I also like tools. I have been building furniture for 30 or more years. My focus is on technique, but that does not stop me enjoyng the tools as well.

The attention I give to the tools of woodworking is nothing like the attention I give to the tools of my day job. In my profession, I am loath to spend money unnecessarily. Unnecessary expenses reduce income unnecessarily. New graduates seem to want to purchase all the gee-jaws. In part, I think that this makes them feel equipped for all eventualities. It is a factor of insecurity borne from inexperience. They have not been practicing long enough to know what is important to have and what is not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Osvaldo Cristo]

I'm a full timer. IMO, all the best set-ups are owned by hobbiests. As said earlier, it's harder to justify nice things when ROI is the primary purpose.

I fully agree you.

Fancy woodshop usually belongs to hobbyists with lots of disposable money and some youtubers, a.k.a. "paid influencers".

Professional ones usually are way more "frugal" in order to get ROI and maintain competitive.

[William Hodge]

This is an interesting thread. It has made me think about what I do for work and entertainment.

The tomatoes and zucchini I grow certainly do not pay their way. I spend a few minutes every day composting, weeding, and watering. If the hours were billable, the price per pound would be crazy. However, going out before dinner to pick stuff to cook is worth it to me.

It sounds like people making things out of wood for enjoyment are more Artisans than Hobbyists. Artisans care most about how thing look and work, rather than what the profit was. As a professional, I want to meet customer expectations and make money. I don't care if I like what I'm making. When I started in woodworking, I wanted to make furniture out of Fine Woodworking. Seven years later, when there was a recession, and I had two young kids, I realized I would be perfectly happy making toothpicks.

One difference between Artisans,Hobbyists, and Professionals is the benches. It seems like the hobbyists have the fanciest benches, neatest shops, and chairs.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

You can do that with the chops too. Many of the posters here identified a specific target market, banjos, ships, etc and have developed success. Note I do not say "found" success. It is one thing to make it, but you have to be able to get it to market. It...is...not...easy!


Well said!

[Will Blick]

As the saying goes...
you have a better chance of success

selling a mediocre product with GREAT marketing...
vs
a GREAT product with mediocre marketing....

ww does not change the rules of whats required for business success.....

[David Sochar]

Fiddler since 5 yrs old. Professional since 1971. Started Acorn Woodworks 1990.

Currently with one employee. I have had as many as 6 in the shop, 3 in the office.

At one point, we filled 9,000s/f doing architectural work.

440290

[Patrick Kane]

I fully agree you.

Fancy woodshop usually belongs to hobbyists with lots of disposable money and some youtubers, a.k.a. "paid influencers".

Professional ones usually are way more "frugal" in order to get ROI and maintain competitive.

I understand these sentiments, but i hope we all agree the expensive machines/tools arent only for show. Frankly, Derek's description of that cabinet shop makes me feel bad for the owner. Hes either not busy enough to invest in himself, or he doesnt know any better. I cant imagine making cabinets for a living and not having a slider. Im not talking digital stops etc. i just mean a basic 20 year old workhorser in OK shape. I feel the same way for the finish carpenters without a track saw, quality miter saw, etc. I dont feel you need to be decked out in Festool swag, but man, a lot of those tools make life so much easier/faster/better. I think it was on FOG/here, but a guy asked about how to charge for commissions, and several pros commented on timing themselves per cut. Dont spend money for the sake of spending money, but i would HIGHLY recommend investing in the right equipment. I remember my first domino was $500 used and it made my panel glueups 10x easier, not to mention everything else it excels at. Same for the TS75. I picked one up from an estate sale for $300-400, and i cant imagine making countertops without it. That tool is probably 6 years in my possession and its invaluable. I could go on and on and on about each tool and how it paid for itself by saving me time on paid builds. Not that i am intimately familiar with European shops, but it seems their mentality is completely different to most american shops. Americans bootstrap it with a skilsaw and a 50 year old unisaw. Euro shops are heavily invested in the newest and best.

From the pure hobbyist perspective, its all about the Fun factor. I had fun with the cheap tools, but i have a lot more fun with the high end ones. A sub-category of the hobby to me is acquiring the tools i want at 'good' prices. Im a bit of a deal junky at heart, and this hobby enables that.

[Will Blick]

David, I confused your shop with this Acorn

https://www.acornwoodworks.org/about-us

sorry bout that!

[J.R. Rutter]

The fanciest shops with the best equipment I've seen around me are all pros, and I used to belong to a woodworking club that did shop tours regularly. Personally, I've bootstrapped up over many years and for the majority of the equipment upgrades, the ROI was fast. I can't imaging going back to a manual stop and chop saw for crosscuts vs a Tigerstop and jump saw, for one example. One of my customers has over $30k invested in his jointer and planer, but he also does old school cabinetry that is more like built-in furniture for the people who can afford him. The biggest customer runs two CNC routers as well as two beam saws and has the Cefla robotic finish system with drying tunnel. But I've been in those low tech cabinet shops, too, where the employees are eating dust and using tape measures to mark cuts...

[Jim Becker]

Folks not earning their living from woodworking make their tool choices because of their personal preferences, desires and ability to invest. (and the latter can include both money and time if they covet old iron). Folks who can manage it will often opt for nicer/more capable tools because of that kind of emotional thing. I was lucky to be able to do that with a few really good years in my career prior to becoming a parent.


Folks who earn their living from woodworking make their tool choices because of their business and production needs. That equates to capability, reliability, safety (especially with employees) and what value it will bring to their operation. Cost is certainly a factor, but that also includes tax considerations. Small shops and sole person operations may approach decision in different ways than larger operations...more emotional input because the work can often be more personal, but it's still a business decision. I think one of the harder things for the pro shops, particularly the smaller ones, is embracing the idea that they can do things differently than they might have been doing for a long time. That can prevent them from investing in some things that would help them make a better product, more efficiently and give them more time for the "finesse" work that makes their output special.

Folks who transition from hobby to earning a living will often start out with where they are and what they have--and make decisions as time passes and their business evolves. That's kinda, sorta where I fit. I had a nice shop and added the CNC at the same time I decided to do more work for others...more and new capability and a pseudo extra worker in the shop in some respects since I can work on something else while the machine is doing what it does.

[Bruce King]

I thought I had everything I needed but just ordered a Jet 18-36 sander. The domino jointer sounds good so maybe that next. Not sure how to work any faster since I take too much time making sure something is going to work, I don’t use plans because it would be a constant “ checking the plans”. I use a lot of math during the process which prevents mistakes but adds on time.

[Matt Day]

You never have everything. Especially after you buy all the shiny new stuff then realize the vintage stuff is better.

[Will Blick]

Jim, since you do low volume commission work..
how much time savings was the CNC now that you have been using it?
Between working CAD, tuning the machine, changing bits, etc.
I can see a huge benefit when you cut the same parts over and over...then its like a robot which is why you see them in nearly ever cabinet shop.
sometimes I fear with low volume, one-offs, I would spend more time tinkering with CAD and CNC to get the cuts right, I could have done it manually? ?
I have been tricked by automation before... hee hee... I am curious of your input.
Did u get a CNC with multi tool head?

[Dan Chouinard]

So you want to be a cabinetmaker? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

Thank you Kevin for the amusing animation.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I understand these sentiments, but i hope we all agree the expensive machines/tools arent only for show. Frankly, Derek's description of that cabinet shop makes me feel bad for the owner. Hes either not busy enough to invest in himself, or he doesnt know any better. I cant imagine making cabinets for a living and not having a slider. Im not talking digital stops etc. i just mean a basic 20 year old workhorser in OK shape. I feel the same way for the finish carpenters without a track saw, quality miter saw, etc. I dont feel you need to be decked out in Festool swag, but man, a lot of those tools make life so much easier/faster/better. I think it was on FOG/here, but a guy asked about how to charge for commissions, and several pros commented on timing themselves per cut. Dont spend money for the sake of spending money, but i would HIGHLY recommend investing in the right equipment. I remember my first domino was $500 used and it made my panel glueups 10x easier, not to mention everything else it excels at. Same for the TS75. I picked one up from an estate sale for $300-400, and i cant imagine making countertops without it. That tool is probably 6 years in my possession and its invaluable. I could go on and on and on about each tool and how it paid for itself by saving me time on paid builds. Not that i am intimately familiar with European shops, but it seems their mentality is completely different to most american shops. Americans bootstrap it with a skilsaw and a 50 year old unisaw. Euro shops are heavily invested in the newest and best.

From the pure hobbyist perspective, its all about the Fun factor. I had fun with the cheap tools, but i have a lot more fun with the high end ones. A sub-category of the hobby to me is acquiring the tools i want at 'good' prices. Im a bit of a deal junky at heart, and this hobby enables that.

There is a different take on the idea that skilsaw and a 50 year old uni are inferior. The point of a business is to generate revenue. Saving some of that revenue for profit is highly desirable, and one of the components is not overspending on overhead. If I can buy 3 or 4 skilsaws for the price of one festool anything, it is an opportunity to figure out interesting ways to save $. For example, you can set up every one of those Skilsaws differently for a specific purpose and be far better off than spending the $ on a festool which is always a one trick pony. Those specific function skilsaws then actually turn out to be a superior tool for the job at hand. I happen to have on that shelf of tools across the shop from me, skilsaws set up with diamond blades for cement board with a dust chute cobbled on, demo saws that look like they went through a demolition derby, one pet with a very good blade and dialed in perfectly for ripping against a straight edge, and multiple framing saws. A festool saw would be horrible for all of those functions save one, so who has the better tools?

Same could be said about shapers, table saws, etc.

I do also have right across the room from that shelf, a nice Felder. I cut my countertops on it, and I'd contend that it is superior for that job in every way to a track saw. Again, who has the better tools?

It's all relative, if you can use the tools you have to their full potential and want nothing more, it's the right tool. Yes, I do have a festool collection from the hobby days, but I honestly don't use it for much any more.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, since you do low volume commission work..
how much time savings was the CNC now that you have been using it?

Will, honestly? No "time savings". But I can do some things that I wasn't able to do in the past that not only bring in nice money, but also answer to my pleasure in the art. Here's an example...those appliques on the fireplace that I had to model from a single photo of a magnolia bloom in software and then spend 8 hours cutting. Each. That one job paid for the more advanced software fully plus a lot more.

https://6jgftq.sn.files.1drv.com/y4mKD8iYtWpg8eTkwywp_WRPweOR_vtADTrq4j0KnZc90LY7NA 7R06QNvJLduocBZ87KNd-UUIiWfMeKNfpkNiRy3KZxSjGGIkcNoSzBlEWcNBYmb48qvye75 v4n6PcO5mTa524gibVmZ7Ej1cOLHCIOWnmtZdH_0fIfqIgmvRG eQRqpt7-GZ3raHLHe7svaW5Oib3xKXGZy6YoIV60xdO_QQ?width=660&height=485&cropmode=none

https://6dgftq.sn.files.1drv.com/y4mcwkGcuDK13t4lgqUrCfS77SQGTLiDXSeKWYe4KL5TezOJyg 5J4w8wQdrpYqNspTH6SYBchmJE9fwqCMldVUjSfRS0Du5rBLvb hfRKyH_S67XV4jrCxVnUrdifnEuyF46F9y63XZ_dL3f2fi8pjA r55YptM9FbdFUq3AriKfwRT7YiB8N4ueHTGqCLSwqYaxQnMzMd FPTYhuTwIgMkm6FiQ?width=442&height=660&cropmode=none

But as I mentioned, I could work on other things while the machine was cutting since I had to be physically in the shop the whole time for safety reasons. Sometimes that was work for the same client; sometimes it was work for another client; and sometimes it was personal stuff. For me, the CNC is "just a tool" but one I enjoy using as it intersects both my technology background and my artistic side. And what I'm really enjoying is the collaboration it's opened up...a good chunk of my paid work is subcontracting to other makers, producing a component or a special effect for their projects. I spent quite a bit of time last week doing just that for a carving that a maker needed for two very custom chairs they are making on commission.

[David Sochar]

Professional shops require a somewhat different level of equipment than a personal shop.

In the professional shop, the tools work for the woodworker. In the hobby shop, the woodworker works for the tools.

With 8,000 s/f and 6 people, we had a 20 hp straight line ripsaw, and a 4 head Weinig molder and a large panel saw. We were looking at single end tenoners when the Earth shifted beneath us.

Not too many small shops need such equipment. We are now 2 of us, with the basics, plus a Maka mortiser, SCMI shaper, and Powermatic tenoner as the odd bits for our more specialized work. We do not build box cabinets, so not even a panel saw. The tools I have today, and use today work for me. They will break down and need repairs or even replacement. That is to be expected.

I personally grow tired of the endless emphasis on equipment - the "which router bit should I buy?" type guy at a wood show, tying up the booth with inane patter. Then goes home and orders the router bit online. For most, it just doesn't matter. It is like some some arcane corner of hyper-consumerism, where you buy what you must, because you must.

[Will Blick]

Interesting response, thx Jim...
I will make the plunge into CNC in the future...
just making sure I dont end up spending 3x more time to accomplish the same task.
But as you correctly point out, there is things such as your carvings, I would never be able to accomplish. Working in CAD, I marvel how I waste days to accomplish tasks that when finished, don't seem that complex! ;)
I think the Shaper portable CNC tool will solve the floor space problem, and will allow many more ww to enter into CNC. Should be interesting to see how that develops...

Fully understood about using tools to maximize profits vs. having more prestigious name tags on the tools. But just like cars, it seems everyone has a different approach to what works best for them.

[Jim Becker]

Will, the kewelest thing for me is that I can "cut" whatever I'm working on virtually over and over and over and over until it's what I want it to be. That's one reason that I kinda treat my CNC like a hammer...you know that to a hammer, everything is a nail. :) Note, that's not necessarily a practical thing when earning money. One should always use the tools and techniques that provide the required end result...including quality...that is the most efficient. Time can matter in that respect. CNC has a learning curve, too, but one that I've found to be totally worth it toward my enjoyment of the craft, whether I'm building for someone else or for myself.

[Will Blick]

Jim, the "over n over" part... ROFL !!!
That is me! which is why I fear CNC...
I am a tweaker also ! ;)

But your point is valid.... can you imagine a carving you did by hand taking days, does not just look just right.... most people wont do it over and over by hand... but to tinker with it in 3D CAD for a few hours, and let the CNC do all the revisions, is an amazing benefit technology offers us.

I notice that basic CNC is not too costly, specially if NOT full size 4x8 or larger. But that is for XYZ axis only.... when you start adding the other two axis, price jump crazy high... or add tool changers, faster speed, better vacuum tables, etc. Seems there is so many choices today, you need to truly understand your needs and budget before jumping in.

[Bruce King]

Does anyone glue up 3/4 hardwood into larger pieces and cut with a CNC?

[Jim Becker]

Does anyone glue up 3/4 hardwood into larger pieces and cut with a CNC?

There is nothing that precludes doing that at all. I use glued up panels for projects including guitars. CNC isn't just for sheet goods. :)

[andrew whicker]

I just recently switched over (from engineering career) to try my hand at... not so much woodworking, but as a designer / artist. I plan on sub'ing a lot out and hiring employees as I can. I'm spending a lot of time creating work procedures, specifications, etc. I'm willing to get 'okay' (in comparison to a lot of woodworkers and metal workers I see) at hands on skills and really spend time on the design, assembly and business side.

My take on it (after lots and lots of thought) is that I could think of it two ways:

1) I'm FUNemployed and I'm building stuff to keep from dipping into my savings too much before I take on my next career.
2) I'm a business owner. Starting a business (in my mind and after much thought and deliberation) is NOT woodworking, designing, etc. Building a business is creating something that creates money, regardless of what the commodity is. Kindig-It cars (you should definitely check this company out) isn't successful because one person is amazing at overhauling / redesigning cars. It's because he's a successful business owner. My thoughts are a lot more complicated than this and if this comes off too confident, I apologize. I am definitely still going thru anxiety attack phase. : )

So, I chose to do 2). I think 1) is perfectly acceptable and actually sounds like a lot of fun.

But.. if you want to woodwork for a living and you have savings, you can always quit your job, get a terrible healthcare plan and have fun being 'under employed' at a local shop. Even if you only did for 6 months, it would definitely change your life. Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself I made a good decision. : )

Good luck, whatever you do!

PS: Oh, and it's not hard to be poor while you're living on savings. I spend so much less money on frivolous stuff now! It's very free'ing.

[Brian Holcombe]

The value of good equipment is that it cost less over time. Buying and replacing cheap equipment is extremely expensive. Unreliable equipment produces poor results and causes you to work twice.

It costs time and money to turnover equipment, diagnose failures and replace material of damaged or degraded work produced on low quality machines.

[johnny means]

I like so say that woodwork is not the actual job, sales is where the real work is. You could make a living selling anything, if you can find your buyers.

[Andrew Hughes]

I was just thinking alone the same line as Johnny's post.
How would I feel about woodworking if my business was making a selling paint stir sticks. Or handles for hand brooms.
If business was good and that’s how I made money. Retirement health care lots of employees all all the corners of a successful business.
Could I call myself a woodworker I guess so since processing wood through machines qualifys.
Maybe a factory style woodworker is just a machine operator?

So what compels me to work with wood the way i do?

Where the creative process and money don’t mix. I don’t know.

[Mark Gibney]

David, Andrew and Johnny - spot on comments for me. Selling is crucial, and the most difficult.

[Bruce King]

Selling is the weird part because people will pay 2500 for something in a showroom as long as they can swipe their card. The same exact item in like new condition on Craigslist will only bring 600 in cash. A salesman told me once that’s is all about the packaging for some products. I recently bought a WiFi extender and picked the most expensive one in a real fancy box which is unusual for me but this time I was trying to avoid the process where the cheap one don’t work, take it back, the medium priced one won’t connect etc.
The car business has the best model since many people can’t afford a used car because it takes more out of pocket than a new car.

[Will Blick]

> The same exact item in like new condition on Craigslist will only bring 600 in cash

or u ask $600 for a $2500 product and u get offers for $50, and will you deliver it too?? It is damn hard to sell anything today... even new in a box, u are lucky if you get 25%

[johnny means]

> The same exact item in like new condition on Craigslist will only bring 600 in cash

or u ask $600 for a $2500 product and u get offers for $50, and will you deliver it too?? It is damn hard to sell anything today... even new in a box, u are lucky if you get 25%

How much ROI can one expect from their investment in Craigslist?:rolleyes:

[Bruce King]

Over the years I have sold about 80k worth of stuff on Craigslist. Around here you usually get asking price if you price it fairly. Upstate SC you have to list high and take offers.
Don’t lower the listing price unless you just need to sell quicker like cars and RVs.
New people search it all the time. I keep my pictures handy because when the ad expires for more than a week or so the pictures disappear but the ad is renewable. Some things take 4 months to sell but eventually do so don’t drop the price. Used Furniture has to go cheap just to get it out of your way. Don’t give out your address until they say they are on the way. Badly misspelled or cryptic emails I just ignore.

[Curt Harms]

Thanks for asking Mark. No there’s no business to grow in my area there are many stores selling furniture made in Mexico,China,India.
Im not sure about cabinet shops I do talk to people I meet at Peterman lumber and they are struggling to find work.
The only choices left to someone in my area if they want to work with wood is to be artistic. It’s not a bad gig I don’t worry about what I make to pay my bills. I also don’t have the pressure. I get to keep using skills I have.
Hows your business doing.

The trick with artistic work is that you need to be in an area with enough people with both the desire and means to afford it.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Or make stuff that is small enough to be mailed. I sell 95 to 98% by mail order depending on the year, locally there is virtually no demand.

[John Goodin]

Not gonna lie and say it is cheaper than a psychologist... but for me it is therapy.

[Will Blick]

Interesting SC CL...
wow, here, its nearly impossible to sell anything..
I have stuff NEW in box, hot items, cant get 1/4 new price...
ebay is better, but in the last few years, that too has been rough...too many scammers hit ebay, I think it has fallen.
and often, zero responses on CL... I guess it really is heavily dependent on the area...

ww for sure is NOT cheaper than a shrink!! ROFL.... hilarious, thx for that!!!

[Bruce King]

Always put a least 3 pictures of your item on CL, even if it’s a boat anchor.
I have had some people that wanted something but were 45 minutes away and some that drove an hour. Had two boxes of framing nails that only fit my broken nailer so listed for about half of new. One guy wanted me to meet him half way. No way I’m going to sit and wait. Waited another few months and a guy came and got them for asking price. I had two coach lights new in a box that I had leftover from a new house 20 years ago on sale for $10 for both. Looks like a $50 set. Sold them to the same guy for 20. Back before covid people would stay and chat. Talked to a professor for 2 hours and several others for an hour.
Anyone tried the other site called LetGo ?
Also OfferUp, Facebook , Nextdoor ads

[Erik Loza]

No opinion here except to say that the most successful "bespoke" furniture makers (as opposed to those who are doing primarily cabinetry) I have as customers are either extremely savvy about marketing, themselves, or have a dedicated social media person. They have slick websites, IG, FB, Youtube, etc. You won't find them on CL or the FB Marketplace. Someone mentioned earlier that it is more about sales know-how than about woodworking. I would amend that to say it is more about "social media marketing" know-how than sales or woodworking know-how.

Erik

[Todd Trebuna]

Hobby for me. Been hobbying for 30 years. I'm in full time Law Enforcement, so it offers a needed break from the reality of my job and frankly, my family. I raised three daughters, two of which developed various health problems, so the one place where there wasn't stress was the garage. I have the best wife in the world, so she never ever says do you really need that or do you really want that, despite having a garage full of nice tools that get used occasionally. I basically justify my purchases, knowing that in less than 10 years I won't be able to whim buy and while I can, I'm going to outfit my kit.

[Jim Becker]

I basically justify my purchases, knowing that in less than 10 years I won't be able to whim buy and while I can, I'm going to outfit my kit.

That's kinda the track I took a number of years ago...circumstances allowed me to put together a shop that was more of a "dream" shop than it had been and I took the opportunity to do so, knowing that post retirement, all bets would be off for that kind of investment. The kids came after that, too, so the timing was fortuitous! I had already learned some hard financial lessons from previous purchases before I "knew better", and didn't make those same errors, for the most part, when stuff got replaced.

[Alex Zeller]

I learned long ago it's the salesman who makes the money. The person doing the actual work might make a living but the salesman is the person who will get the most money for something based on what they see in the customer. Let's face it. You could make the most outstanding furniture but if you can't read the customer and adjust to how they think and what you feel is important to them then you are going to struggle. I'm a little far away from Amish country but I do have a friend in upstate NY who sells their goods. He has no clue how they make a living doing it (since he buys it so cheap) but he does very well at selling it.

Back when I was in my 20s I realized that I could repair damaged vehicles. I could buy something much newer than I otherwise could afford, repair it, and then sell it for a nice profit after driving it for a few months. I always had at least two, the one I was driving and the one I was repairing. But those days are gone now. Too many people who are willing to do the work for nothing has driven up the price of wrecked vehicles.

After decades of being out of woodworking I'm a hobbyist and have no desires to do anything more than that. My goal is to produce some nice stuff for family and friends that hopefully will be around in 100 years, long after I'm gone. I have a minimum of 5 years left of working for a living so now is the time to buy the tools I want. I've heard professionals (plenty here) who say they want industrial equipment that they can set and forget. Time spent setting up a tool and then repeatedly checking and adjusting is a "no value add". It doesn't make money. I can take the time. The only real pressure on me is if it's a gift, like a B-day or Christmas with a set date. Even then if I miss it so what.

I know several people who do woodworking for a living and most of their tools are much nicer/ more expensive than mine. None of them would let anything from Grizzly step foot in their shops. All of their shops are in the middle of nowhere and they meet with the potential customer with books of photos of their work. When the work is there they can bid a higher price for new work but rarely can they pass stuff up as they also know when the work dries up they need to hunker down while they try to find a new job. Surprisingly it's not based on the economy. When things go south they tend to get work from people who have money or a safe job who want to do some upgrades to their house. I respect them but I would never want to count on it for a living.

[andy bessette]

I learned long ago it's the salesman who makes the money... I'm a little far away from Amish country but I do have a friend in upstate NY who sells their goods. He has no clue how they make a living doing it (since he buys it so cheap) but he does very well at selling it...

One can make a case for choosing a career as a re-seller, exploiting the labor of others, rather than actually creating something with your own talent and labor.

Back to woodworking for a living... in case someone is interested in the machinery aspect, I'll post some photos of my shop machines. First, one of my Unisaws, with carbide rip blade, married to contractors saw with 1/2" carbide dado. Out-feed table is 48" x 96" and is an important assembly bench. Adjacent is 10" General International jointer with helical cutter-head.
Second photo shows another Unisaw, with carbide combination blade, married to table-mounted 3-1/2 hp Stanley router. Adjacent to that is a Craftsman radial arm saw, another essential shop machine used almost exclusively for 90 degree crosscuts.
Third photo shows 3 of my 4 bandsaws, a 16" MiniMax, with 1/4" blade, a 20 Agazzani with 1" carbide blade, and an 18" Vectrax with metal-cutting blade. In the foreground are shaper and drum sander. Behind the Vectrax is Delta dust collector.
Fourth photo shows my drill press station.
Fifth photo is thickness plane with portable air compressor.

https://i.postimg.cc/L5RhpqBk/IMG-0419.jpg (https://postimg.cc/0MW9Gy4r)
https://i.postimg.cc/tRtYz5pB/IMG-0420.jpg (https://postimg.cc/0rjkk76S)
https://i.postimg.cc/5NgQfmrX/IMG-0417.jpg (https://postimg.cc/CzZxNbS0)
https://i.postimg.cc/jj7jn6MQ/IMG-0422.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XZnWT5Sp)
https://i.postimg.cc/Px1N9bZr/IMG-0418.jpg (https://postimg.cc/ZBKTydV1)

[Tom Alison]

Regarding tool selection, I think it is critical to be able to identify those tools that can save you time in your production process. One of my customers who sands & refinishes wood floors for a living recently purchased a $6,000.00 floor sander, he said what would normally take him 3 days to sand, he can do in one day now. I agree with Brian, quality tools are cheaper in the long run, break-downs and trouble shooting can be a real time suck to your bottom line!!

[Warren Lake]

its a gold mine so quit your six figure day job and get over to lee valley and get started.

Did you see dumb and Dumber where Jim Carrey asks "what are my chances of a guy like me ended up with a girl like you" she says one in a million, he is ecstatic he has a chance :)

Then if you look at Jims own life or Arnolds or others they knew they would do it from very young.





440892

[Bruce King]

I stumbled a across this, very interesting
https://www.colonialsociety.org/publications/3297/boston-and-its-furnituremakers-1650-1860

[Bruce King]

its a gold mine so quit your six figure day job and get over to lee valley and get started.

Did you see dumb and Dumber where Jim Carrey asks "what are my chances of a guy like me ended up with a girl like you" she says one in a million, he is ecstatic he has a chance :)

Then if you look at Jims own life or Arnolds or others they knew they would do it from very young.





440892

Did the Ashley furniture guy start out making furniture or just the business side of it?

On another thought, with the exception of a few that work their way into furniture building the vast majority of high earners do carpentry work such as cranking out closet systems, commercial displays etc. as a one man shop with a helper.

[Andrew Hughes]

Ashley furniture out near me sells very low quality furniture.
Calling it furniture is questionable.
Ikea sells a higher quality product

[Mark Bolton]

Ashley furniture out near me sells very low quality furniture.
Calling it furniture is questionable.
Ikea sells a higher quality product

Same here. But in this area now there are only 2-3 choices for furniture period and they are all pretty much either low quality/mass produced, or uber heavy solid clunky, or the ultimate con-job of Amish made (if made is even applicable). Finding anything of reasonable quality and long lasting even in upholstered is pretty much impossible unless you travel.

[Ronald Blue]

Interesting read. Interesting views. If you are in business then a machine needs to meet some requirements. But if that can be done without a huge cash outlay then it's a win. I have no intention of doing any type of wood working for a living. Only for pleasure. However I watch the used tool market and have picked up a few items worth the money. I can afford to buy high end stuff but would never do it because it isn't me. I did get a steel almost a year ago on a CaMaster Stinger 3 X3 CNC router. It's a 4x8 capable machine. Half of new price. I've not had time to use it a lot but plan to change that soon. I'm thinking I'm going to pull the plug on full time work. Probably within the next year. To many have worked their whole life and then retired and were gone 6 months later. I don't want to be one of them. I have a Craftsman zip code saw that was given to me that at this time meets my needs I watch for nicer cabinet saws but they either are to far away or not what I want. I might spring for something new but it will have to be because my freebie doesn't get the job done. I did buy a sliding attachment from a fellow creeker but haven;t installed it yet. If it had a better fence I would have little complaint at this time. I appreciate good tools but they have to fill a need that I have. I fully understand that if you are making your living with them you need solid quality tools.