Woodpeckers honing system

[Will Blick]

I am not big on promoting products.
I know on this site, WP has some detractors, some fanboys, etc.
I am happy with some of their products, others seemed half baked, others a bit high priced, etc. But for me, each product stands on its own merits and value.
I have been though a LOT of honing guides and systems including power systems. I don't sharpen freehand.
The WP honing system IMO, the best one ever made... very well designed, blades stay square, nice feature with adjustable wheels as seen in their video. Feels good in my hand, easy to square the blade in the angle fixture. However, the angle fixture has fixed settings as stated on their web site, with micro hone positions as well.

Since this ONE TIME TOOL is on its second run, and time is running out to order, have a look if you are considering a new honing system. I have ordered WP products before, when not happy, they have always stood behind their 30 day Money Back guarantee.
I just ordered a second honing guide without the angle fixture as only one of those is required. I ordered the original kit on the first run. I consider this product fairly priced considering the quality and design.

439936

[Derek Cohen]

The wide wheel makes this a chisel-only honing guide. It does not look suitable for cambering plane blades.

Expensive. I would rather have the LN.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Will Blick]

Did u watch the video?
I use it primarily for plane blades...
the tiny camber I desire, is achieved by adding slight pressure to the sides...
but valid point, they do not offer camber roller like Veritas offers...

[Curt Putnam]

Their literature did not get me past the thought that their honing guide is a $250 Eclipse guide. It does not do skews which the LN and LV guides do, the LV does cambers and blades whise sides are not parallel which the WP does not (or it was not alluded to in the literature. For me, they failed to make their point.

[glenn bradley]

Beautifully made like all Woodpecker products. A little too highly focused for the price point IMHO. When you are competing at the price of a Veritas MKII with all the trimmings that will do much more plus having enough left over for still other items you need to really like red. Don't get me wrong. I have an item or two . . . maybe three . . . that I have gone premium on because I liked the look or feel or a certain feature. Nothing wrong with that or the WP jig. It is good to have choices.

[Jim Koepke]

$250 is a lot of incentive to learn freehand sharpening if you ask me.

jtk

[ken hatch]

$250 is a lot of incentive to learn freehand sharpening if you ask me.

jtk

Jim,

LOL, I was waiting for someone to break the ice. I looked at the thread a couple of times last night, even started typing a reply before discarding it. Whatever, your reply is perfect but then it is not just the money it is about a better system. I've yet to find a guide that wasn't limiting and didn't cause more problems than it fixed. Just a small example, from looking at the photographs of the Woodpecker it will limit the area of the stone you can work to pretty much the center. Which will mean rapid wear of the stone center and even more time time keeping it flat enough to use. At least with an Eclipse type guide you can use most of the stone and BTW, that is not an endorsement of an Eclipse type guide they still meet the more problems than they fix statement.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

Did u watch the video?
I use it primarily for plane blades...
the tiny camber I desire, is achieved by adding slight pressure to the sides...
but valid point, they do not offer camber roller like Veritas offers...

Hi Will

I apologise if I going to come over as critical, but I would never recommend this guide in a month of Sundays. It looks beautifully made, and the angle setting fixture looks interesting. However the guide is very expensive and aimed at total beginners who will look at the package and not understand why this is a poor honing guide. It is limited to honing square and I really doubt that you could add a camber to a plane blade without extra gyrations while standing on one leg. Fortunately for Woodpeckers, beginners rarely camber plane blades.

Here is a photo from the video where you can see the narrow wheel of the Eclipse (excellent for cambering). The wheels of the WP guide are set outboard for chisels.

https://i.postimg.cc/zvc0CPHW/WP-guide1.jpg

Here they are set for a plane blade ...

https://i.postimg.cc/qqR1Cdq4/WP-guide2.jpg

Still far too wide apart to apply pressure on one side of the blade. I should point out that I have not used this guide, so this is armchair speculation, but I would be willing to take any bet.

The other point of possible interest is that the guide is closer to the Kell than the Eclipse in concept. A Kell with an angle setter. I think that the Kell is poorly designed as well - now there is a guide that is designed to make cambering an impossible task!

https://www.qy1.de/img/kell1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

I mostly agree with what has been said but I do think the user could add a very slight camber, maybe enough for a smoothing plane. I do agree that the design would make it extremely difficult as the wheels end up spaced apart the same width as the plane iron when placed on the inboard side of the guide.

I mostly use the LN guide when using a honing guide and just don't think there is much to improve upon. I also don't love the idea of using a metal, even if it is aluminum, stop at the edge of the blade. I assume it's aluminum as I believe most of their tools are made of anodized aluminum. Driving the blade into a wood stop just seems much more practical to me when dealing with such a fine edge. Having said that you're going to be sharpening 99% of the time after driving the blade into the stop but I just don't love the idea. I do like the design of the angle settings of the stop and how it negates having to have multiple setup blocks taking up space.

[Will Blick]

I thought twice about starting this thread. I guess I lost my better judgement for a moment... lesson learned.

First, I should have mentioned, I use this guide for 75% plane blades 25% chisels, mostly wide chisels. It is NOT a cure-all for every sharpening task. WP does not make that claim. But then, I never found any jig which is a cure-all for all sharpening scenarios. When I want to sharpen my skew chisels, I use the MKII with skew attachment. When I need to put a heavy camber on my plane blades, I use the camber wheel on the MKII. These are well designed specialty jigs that do one task well.

However, for me, and prob. lots of other ww out there, we spend most of our sharpening time on straight plane blades with just a tiny camber, and for that, the WP works better than any jig I tried. I thought some members might benefit from my experience with the product. If you primarily sharpen thin chisels or skews, obviously, this is NOT an ideal jig for you.

> However the guide is very expensive and aimed at total beginners who will look at the package and not understand why this is a poor honing guide. It is limited to honing square.

I think this is a fair assessment. WP does not advertise this as a heavy camber jig, so in that respect, sure, its limiting, its primary intent was for standard plane blades and chisels.


> However the guide is very expensive and aimed at total beginners who will look at the package and not understand why this is a poor honing guide.

Derek, few are at your level...but after 25 years of ww, and a mountain of products I have experimented with, I guess my level of ww would be classified as a beginner by your assessment. Fair enough.

Derek, I am curious... I know you get free, or advanced product from some makers so you can share your expertise with them. You are very transparent about that. Has WP ever sent you anything to test? I will just guess, they have not? And just to be transparent on my end, I have never received anything from WP or any maker that I did NOT pay full retail price for.


> Jim wrote... $250 is a lot of incentive to learn freehand sharpening if you ask me.

> Kens response...LOL, I was waiting for someone to break the ice. Your reply is perfect,...

Ken, glad Jim broke the ice for you. I can freehand hone as well, but the results for me are inferior to a well designed honing guide. Therefore, I have elected to sharpen with a honing guide. Possibly you and Jim have much superior freehand honing skills than I do. Kudos to you both. With such high level freehand honing, surely you would have no need for a product like this.

But maybe other members who are quite at your superior level, might need the benefits of a honing guide? Maybe some day I will achieve freehand honing results on par with using a honing guide, i.e. get to your level of expertise. Then I can sell all my honing guides. Till then, I will stay with what has proven to work best for me after years of experimenting. I have seen fine ww with 30 yrs of experience still use honing guides.


> Ken wrote.... Just a small example, from looking at the photographs of the Woodpecker it will limit the area of the stone you can work to pretty much the center. Which will mean rapid wear of the stone center and even more time time keeping it flat enough to use.

Ken, the picture Derek posted shows the wheels inward on a plane blade. How is it possible you can not use the entire stone area when viewing the pix?? The plane blade is wider than the wheels, right?? It is obvious, the width of the plane blade can be used over the entire stone area. I am baffled how you can state this?? Sure, with thin chisels, it can be more of an issue.

As I stated early on, I too have yet to find a single sharpening system that is a cure-all for every sharpening scenario. Like many fields, there is a wide selection of tools one must select from for a given task within a generalized field. Sharpening is a VERY generalized field. This WP jig is ONE of many tools available, and IMO, it does the best job for a few specific tasks. I own the MKII with every available accessory, but after wasting countless hours trying to keep blades straight in the jig, I continued to look for other options. There is a LOT of threads on this issue... its not just my experience.

In the future, I will surely refrain from starting these threads.

[Will Blick]

Tony, the stop is not alum. I am not positive, but I think its stainless steel.
Of course, it makes sense to push the edge softly against the steel stop. But as you correctly mention, you sharpen after its set, so a non issue from my experience. The benefit is....steel and heavy alum. will stay square, and IMO, that is the trademark of this WP jig, a system to easily and quickly set blades square in the jig and the guides precision to then sharpen square. The angle fixture is a ONE TIME product for setting the blades that will remain true. It also has proven well for repeatability of re sharpening micro bevels, something that other jigs have failed me at.

And yes, a slight camber can be had by just adding pressure to the sides, this is true of most jigs, as we are talking maybe a thou or two...just enough to keep the corners above the center. I am one who prefers very minimal cambers as I use hand planes for edge planing often. I like to keep all my BU LV blades interchangeable so I sharpen less often.

[ken hatch]

"...Ken wrote.... Just a small example, from looking at the photographs of the Woodpecker it will limit the area of the stone you can work to pretty much the center. Which will mean rapid wear of the stone center and even more time time keeping it flat enough to use.

Ken, the picture Derek posted shows the wheels inward on a plane blade. How is it possible you can not use the entire stone area when viewing the pix?? The plane blade is wider than the wheels, right?? It is obvious, the width of the plane blade can be used over the entire stone area. I am baffled how you can state this?? Sure, with thin chisels, it can be more of an issue..."

Will,

I apologize if I hurt your feeling but from the photo you posted of, I would guess a 25mm chisel, the wheels were near the edge of a 3" stone. Even if you look at the photo Derek posted with a plane blade and the wheels set inside the track of the wheels will be close to 2" or more. Not a lot of room on a 3" stone to work but I can see some ability to being able to work the edges with plane blades.

I make no claim to being a sharping god, but I have tried most guides over the years and found most if not all more trouble than they are worth. You say you know how to sharpen freehand if so then you know it is not that hard to learn and frankly if you know how and know how to judge your cutter's edge by feel and vision the results are better than any guide can give.

My two pennies and worth less. As always with anything wood YMMV.

BTW, one of the reasons I was hesitant to post was you seem very happy with the guide.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

In the future, I will surely refrain from starting these threads.

Will, I suspect that my response, and those of others, was not what you expected, and frankly disheartening. I don’t think of the thread this way. I ... you ... another ... will post some information/observation/review, and then open a discussion. Some will agree, some disagree, information is added, techniques are added, explained, and critiqued. That makes for a fantastic thread.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

For blades of any camber, I like the old, red Record with a ball as the roller. It makes no difference at all if the cutter is squarely placed in it, or not. You can watch what the edge is doing on the stones, without worrying about how much pressure you put where. It will do anything from a sub thou camber on a smoothing plane, to a scrub plane. I would never use it for the narrow chisel in the picture-just showing that it will work with anything.

If Woodpecker would offer a ball for a roller, in addition, then they would have something worth getting. Some enjoy having spent a high price. I like cheap. I'm sure I paid less than 20 bucks for the Record.

Not trying to interject my setting jigs here, but this was the only picture of the Record that I could remember. Some suggested that it was better to buy a setting guide that you had to fumble with. Sharpening is to each their own.

[Will Blick]

> I would guess a 25mm chisel, the wheels were near the edge of a 3" stone. Even if you look at the photo Derek posted with a plane blade and the wheels set inside the track of the wheels will be close to 2" or more. Not a lot of room on a 3" stone to work but I can see some ability to being able to work the edges with plane blades.

I addressed this in my response above "Sure, with thin chisels, it can be more of an issue.". What constitutes thin...dunno, but hopefully you get the drift. As u, and many of us have concluded, NO ONE sharpening tool solves every sharpening task perfectly, they all seem to have issues. And what more can we expect...these are not $5K NASA quality products, they are consumer priced products.

As for freehand honing.... Again, either your skill-set is far above mine, or maybe you are not as particular about your cutting edge. I can freehand hone and make a usable blade for my planes. But IMO, maintaining that perfect angle through the grits is what gives you a better edge. If you can feel the micro bevel against a stone, whereas you will not alter the angle 1/2 deg., its quite the gift you have.

As for taking offense... I dont think I am overly sensitive.... you felt the need to make a dig, which I felt was uncalled for, I was only sharing my experience with a new product. So be it... apology accepted, we move on.

[Will Blick]

Tom, I agree, a camber attachment would increase the audience of their jig. But like most WP products, they seem to appeal to the masses and do not fine tune everything as a more specialized ww supplier will.

Derek, when u write...

> However the guide is very expensive and aimed at total beginners who will look at the package and not understand why this is a poor honing guide.

You have discounted my 25 yrs experience as a ww, as a total beginner without saying it directly. There was no other way to interpret what you wrote. I would not consider that "keep it friendly" as the forum requires. What was frankly disheartening to me was, I have treated you with respect, complimented you in countless threads, thanked you for so many valuable contributions to the ww community, etc, and for some reason, u got somewhat offensive here. To make matters worse, now you try to spin it, so u are the victim in this exchange? C'mon Derek, I wasn't born yesterday.

I love open discussion, shared experiences, learning, etc. But I have learned, there is some subjects on this forum and certain people (not you Derek, it's rare you play this role which is what surprised me here) who feel compelled to attacking, belittling, "my way is better", etc. And as one starts it, others can't help themselves, they feel compelled to pile on. Not so much in this thread, but its very common in others, specially in recent sharpening thread where Jessica was attacked for no good reason. So while your comments and expertise are always appreciated Derek, I do think you went "overboard" here, with no good cause. You could have presented your positions without being offensive. And then trying to then play the victim only put salt in the wound. this why I mentioned, I will refrain from posting threads like this in the future. I think many who read this thread, and similar ones, also are very cautious of posting their experience with certain types of products, specially in Neander forum.

Again, did WP ever send you advance or free product for evaluation?

[Jim Koepke]

this why I mentioned, I will refrain from posting threads like this in the future.

Hopefully this feeling will fade. Many would not have known of this product without your mention. Don't pay comments like mine any heed. One of my common admissions is that of being a bit of a cheapskate. (some might even say a big cheapskate)

Threads having anything to do with sharpening make one thing clear. There are easily more ways to work an edge than there are people with edges to work. This is because some are using more than one method or system.

After about as many years as yourself woodworking, my assessment of my own skill is not much above beginner. My edges get to a point of being good enough for me. Sometimes my desires for a honing guide or 'super' stone have to be repressed with the calmness of need.

jtk

[Will Blick]

thx for the post Jim.
I understand the cheapskate mindset...
sometimes, I spend insane amounts of money on some items in life...
and then, I find a $50 expenditure, ridiculous ;)
But I usually keep it to myself ;)
We all have things we find value in, and other things we don't. This is specially true in ww tools as well.

I admit, sharp edges is a crazy obsession with some of us, I don't fully understand how it becomes such a slippery slope ;) Its similar to hand planes, IMO, an overly obsessed tool, which I am also guilty of, despite me knowing I get much better end products with my Power Jointers, table saws, etc.

I actually admire the mindset many ww have when they say, my blade is sharp enough... I more than admire them, i envy them. I also admire the posters who are more concerned getting a project finished vs. being concerned about how many grits to use on their plane blade. But this is a hobby for most of us, the enjoyment can come from any part of the the process. Sometimes a simple projects takes me months to complete, cause I get so caught up on the tools, sharpening, what joint, running tests ;) Testing 8 different finishes on scrap, etc.

I guess the issue regarding the forum comments.... if someone rides a bike for transportation... should they knock someone who drives a Toyota? Maybe the Toyota owner has no legs, maybe they travel greater distances, maybe they are of an age where bike riding is not possible. You get my drift... but often on this forum, the condemnation comes without knowing all the circumstances, wants, needs, end goals, etc.

[Steve Voigt]

$250 is a lot of incentive to learn freehand sharpening if you ask me.



OMG. Jim, I think your mic is still on the floor!

[Ron Selzer]

Will, Derek, and others who have posted here I appreciate the information brought forth and the opinions given. I would like to see all keep on posting here.
I probably will not spend the money that Wood Peckers charges for this item, yet I do have some of their tools I bought brand new and will buy more if something strikes me.
Nice to have choices on what to buy and be able to read multiple/different opinions ss long as we all don't fall down that rabbit hole of dismissing others opinions. Yes I am guilty of doing that and try hard not to, sometimes just have to step away and let the computer cool off.

All in all I have gained more knowledge from this discussion which is a good thing.
Ron

[Steve Voigt]

thx for the post Jim.
I understand the cheapskate mindset...

I admit, sharp edges is a crazy obsession with some of us, I don't fully understand how it becomes such a slippery slope.

I also admire the posters who are more concerned getting a project finished vs. being concerned about how many grits to use on their plane blade.


I think you've misunderstood Jim's point, and you seem to be equating the amount of money spent (on jigs and stones) with the quality of the edge, which is certainly not true. Jim's point was not about being a cheapskate; it was that an equally good edge can be had while spending zero dollars on a jig. I'd extend his point to say that an equally good edge can be had without using a large number of "grits," however one wants to interpret the meaning of "grit."
I hasten to add, I'm not knocking anyone's use of a jig for any reason, but it will not by itself produce a finer edge, nor will a big collection of expensive stones of whatever type.

[Will Blick]

> Jim's point was not about being a cheapskate.

I was commenting on Jims words ... > One of my common admissions is that of being a bit of a cheapskate. (some might even say a big cheapskate)

Jim was simply suggesting often his point of view comes from the perspective of, often a lower cost solution is good enough, I fully grasp that... and sometimes, its completely valid.


> it was that an equally good edge can be had while spending zero dollars on a jig.

Steve, I commented on this previously, maybe you missed it. As I mentioned, there are some, maybe you being one of them who have superior freehand sharpening skills on low cost stones that can produce better edges than guys like me with costly jigs with costly stones. That could very well be true, I can't comment on that, cause I never experienced your edges, so I wont offer an opinion on this. Obviously, you are convinced of your position despite not having all the edges made from all the different methods in your possession.

What I shared was my experience. I will reiterate it since you raised the issue again. I am a very hands on guy.... quick hands, no arthritis, good feel, athletic, etc. I can NOT get an edge freehand sharpening on par with a quality jig that assures the micro bevel is always in the same position on every stroke, on every stone...and, that every stone is FLAT...I spend a lot of time flattening stones. OTOH, maybe you and others in this thread have much superior free hand honing skill-set, whereas no jigs are required, and you can accomplish the same edge I can using costly jigs and costly stones. Although I am not sure how you know that, as we never compared edges. But its an open forum, you get to post anything.

And btw, this has moved into free-hand vs. jig discussion, not the intent of the original post. This was a NEW PRODUCT quickie overview. But since the thread moved in that direction..... I am not suggesting this WP jig is the only jig that works. I have BCT jigs, elcipse jigs, Veritas, LN, sharpskate, I could go on.... The WP jig I found very convenient and very accurate. I can quickly set the angle, with repeatability, the honing guide is a nice size, fits in my hand well, and it holds plane blades consistently square. That's all I was trying to share with my original post... does this contribution warrant this must controversy? Again, I will avoid sharing my experience with new products in the future. I am always appreciative when others post about new products I am considering purchasing, and thought I would try to give back to the forum. But its too time consuming wasting hours going through this type of banter. When I start a post, i feel compelled to see it through, prob. another shortcoming of mine.

And if some people think, he is just defending his purchase. I bought so many ww products that are half baked which are very disappointing from KNOWN name makers. I rarely post these. But if something works well, I felt like such a contribution wold be helpful on this forum. Glad at least a few people appreciate the sharing of my experience with this new product, even if the product was not for them.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

“Glad at least a few people appreciate the sharing of my experience with this new product, even if the product was not for them.”

I certainly do and appreciate the discussion. I considered the first iteration of the Woodpeckers sharpening jig but passed because I have the Veritas jig with all its gizmos except the cambering wheel. Same for the LN jig, which was unfortunately released well after I had purchased the Veritas, which, btw, I find underwhelming. Except for my scrub plane, none of my blades are cambered. Instead I knock off a tiny bit of the corners with a couple of passes on the stone. It works just fine for me. Most of my blades are A2, sharpened on diamond and water stones, and I don’t examine the edges under a microscope. They do what they’re supposed to do.

I gave even more serious consideration to the latest Woodpeckers jig but again passed, not because I don’t think it’s a great tool but because I can’t justify the cost what with my investment in the Veritas system. If I ever decide to sell it, I’d probably opt for the LN because of its versatility (skew blades, narrow chisels, etc.) and my sizable investment in their products.
But I agree with all the points you’ve made, Will, about the Woodpeckers jig being an excellent tool.

[Will Blick]

Thx Stephen...
Like u, when I get these emails from BCT, WP, etc, and a ONE TIME TOOL is running... u try to decide, as it might be your only chance of getting it ;) Many of the WP products are on v2.0 or even 3.0, same with BCT. But you never know if it will run again. Its hard to watch a video from the maker to decide, as its a sales video. We want critical reviews form actual users.

What I find odd about these makers is.... (add Veritas as well)
what is the reason these makers do not allow confirmed buyers to post reviews on their products?
It sure would make life easier for us....

The fact WP web site does not offer customer reviews, is why I actually posted this mini review here, as I could not find any information regarding the usefulness of the product when I purchased it on the first round. I think this thread, despite the side tracking, attacks, etc, identified the strengths and weaknesses of the jig.
Hopefully if any of these makers read this thread, they will consider allowing customer reviews on their site.

[Steve Voigt]

Geez Will, your reply is quite defensive, as were your responses to Derek and Ken. There is no need. No one is attacking you personally. A number of us simply disagree that such a tool is a wise investment, and we said so. Our responses are not out of bounds…it is probably unrealistic to expect only affirmative responses.

The only reason I chime in on threads like this is that I don't want newbies to get the wrong impressions and possibly be discouraged from taking up the craft. Whenever possible I try to persuade people that (1) You don't need expensive stones to get a good edge; (2) freehand sharpening is not that difficult; (3) but if you want to use a jig (which is fine, especially when you're starting out) a $20 eclipse style will do the job.

Clearly you disagree: you've repeatedly suggested that freehand sharpening takes great skill, and you've hinted that those of us who do it may not be as good at it as we think. That's fine: I don't have any problem with disagreement. I'm happy to debate each of these issues if you want, but the starting point is not to take substantive disagreement on an issue as a personal attack. It's not.

[Will Blick]

> A number of us simply disagree that such a tool is a wise investment, and we said so. Our responses are not out of bounds…it is probably unrealistic to expect only affirmative responses.

Geez Steve, when did I ever suggest this jig is a great investment for everyone?? When did I ever state that someone thinks this tool is not a wise investment, that such a statement is out of bounds??? I can only assume you did not read the entire thread. To be clear, I never made such a statement.

Once again, as I wrote about 4x now, I was simply writing a mini review on a product that got very minimal or no coverage. And again, its your type of responses that will prevent me (and others) from ever contributing in ways like this. I have no issues if others think this jig is not ideal for them?? Not sure how many different ways I can express this!


> The only reason I chime in on threads like this is that I don't want newbies to get the wrong impressions and possibly be discouraged from taking up the craft. Whenever possible I try to persuade people that (1) You don't need expensive stones to get a good edge; (2) freehand sharpening is not that difficult; (3) but if you want to use a jig (which is fine, especially when you're starting out) a $20 eclipse style will do the job.


Steve, has anyone here, including myself disputed this? I mentioned several times, I have freehand honed in the past as well... I can get a usable edge too. I never took issue with people free hand honing, did I? I did mention, for me, I can get a better edge with jigs? Are you suggesting its unfair for me to share my experience regarding freehand honing vs. jig honing? I thought that is what this forum was for?

Is it mandatory to have a jig for woodworking? Of course, not. No one ever suggested it was, including me! So why are you bringing up issues like this? I can only assume to just fuel the flames?


> I'm happy to debate each of these issues if you want, but the starting point is not to take substantive disagreement on an issue as a personal attack.

Sorry, I never take a disagreement as a personal attack. You are misrepresenting this thread. I can only assume you did not read the full thread, so you have confused where the attacks came from. I can understand not reading it all thoroughly, as this entire thread is long, and went sideways quickly.

Anyway, your post misrepresents things I wrote...it seems in an effort to just stir the pot.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, when u write...

> However the guide is very expensive and aimed at total beginners who will look at the package and not understand why this is a poor honing guide.


You have discounted my 25 yrs experience as a ww, as a total beginner without saying it directly. There was no other way to interpret what you wrote. I would not consider that "keep it friendly" as the forum requires. What was frankly disheartening to me was, I have treated you with respect, complimented you in countless threads, thanked you for so many valuable contributions to the ww community, etc, and for some reason, u got somewhat offensive here. To make matters worse, now you try to spin it, so u are the victim in this exchange? C'mon Derek, I wasn't born yesterday.

Will ...

(1) I have no idea how long you have been woodworking.

(2) My reply was not about you.

(3) This is a honing guide with a limited range, and this has been commented on by others besides myself.

(4) Do not take that comment personally. It was about the honing guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Hutchings]

This was fun! My 2 cents. If I won the lottery, I would probably buy this and all the others just to see. I've never owned a sharpening jig but really it's because for me, sharp enough is sharp enough. I only own 2 stones, 1000 and 8000 Shaptons. I would love to try some of these higher grits but I get my work done with what I have. I appreciate the review so that when I do decide to get an aide I'll know which one to try first. So, thank you for the review.

[Mike Brady]

Reflecting some of the previous posts, the wide-set wheels are a no-go for this design . There is more important things to focus on when honing than staying on the stone. Spyderco stones, for example, would be too narrow. I also feel that aluminum is too soft a material for to be used around wet abrasives. I am very happy with the LN honing guide.

As a footnote: A lot of tool reviews seem to contain an abundance of self-justification for a recent purchase. It is understandable for a buyer to not be objective. In my personal experience, I can only recall one tool that I knew was a mistake right away, and I returned it. I still own several tools that I should have done without.

[Will Blick]

Thank you Rich...
that was my purpose in trying to make the contribution of my simple review....
As I mentioned previously, I envy your type, the ability to use what is good enough, and get work done! That is a valuable asset many don't realize they possess. There is ZERO sarcasm in that statement. My goal in the future is to become more like your type.... i.e. dedicate a greater % of my mental focus on project completion vs. all the tiny side details and tool obsessions.

Derek

> (1) I have no idea how long you have been woodworking.

I advised you of my experience level, and it had NO influence on your position. Lets not overlook this simple fact.

> However the guide is very expensive and aimed at total beginners who will look at the package and not understand why this is a poor honing guide.

The only conclusion I can make of this is, I am a total beginner (not true) and I must have not understood why this is a poor honing guide. (and, I am so thick, and mentally challenged, I still don't understand why!) Derek as I mentioned, 98% of hand tool users are not at your level. Most hand plane users do NOT use heavy cambers like you. The fact this guide does the fundamentals of plane blade sharpening VERY well, is NOT such a horrible thing for the audience that WP serves. Many tools do ONE task VERY well and not much else. Most hand plane owners do not even own a skewed blade. This guide is not for everyone, of course, I was simply sharing my experience using it, as I was very happy with its design and performance.


(2) My reply was not about you.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the dots here. Anyway, as I mentioned previously Derek, I have sang nothing but praises for you on this forum. My position on that issue has not changed, you dedicate yourself to helping many ww on these forums. I still commend you on your gracious dedication. However, in this example, you dug yourself in on this one. A simple remedy was available, but IMO u had too much pride to remedy the situation and move on. I now understand, that's your style. I will be the bigger person and overlook your comments here.

I do find it odd, why you refuse to answer my question regarding, if WP ever has offered you free or advanced product for evaluation. Since you refuse to answer the question, I can only speculate that WP does not offer you free or advance product for review like other makers do. And maybe this is part of the reason you took such a STRONG position against the product. (you could have stated objective pros n cons - without the harsh approach, which is uncharacteristic of you) It has been my experience, peoples positions are often influenced by free product. If I am wrong about my assessment here, then please accept my apology in advance. I am man enough to accept being wrong, and have no problems apologizing to a fellow member.

[Will Blick]

> A lot of tool reviews seem to contain an abundance of self-justification for a recent purchase. It is understandable for a buyer to not be objective. In my personal experience, I can only recall one tool that I knew was a mistake right away, and I returned it. I still own several tools that I should have done without.

I did address this above. I rarely ever post tool reviews. Many tools I buy, I find way too many shortcomings. I send lots of tools back, and I have a pile of them that sit in my shop, wondering, what will i do with those. I rarely ever post negative reviews. I think I posted ONE on this forum regarding a BCT plane. Its rare I even post a somewhat positive review like this one...and the reasons are obvious why.... just read this thread.
So I had this crazy notion, that if a tool does a task well, which I have struggled finding one that does, maybe I should share it with this forum, as a way to give back. Aagin, lesson learned!! (unfortunately, I think others will also be gun shy of tool reviews on this forum)

And as I have stated over and over, this is NOT a cure-all jig, it does a GREAT job with plane blades and large chisels, is easy to use and repeatable. At this level of consumer priced products, no tool is perfect. I am impressed we have so many tool makers who even try to sell products at these prices. Many people do not understand the tremendous cost involved in developing, marketing and selling products.

[Steve Voigt]

I do find it odd, why you refuse to answer my question regarding, if WP ever has offered you free or advanced product for evaluation. Since you refuse to answer the question, I can only speculate that WP does not offer you free or advance product for review like other makers do. And maybe this is part of the reason you took such a STRONG position against the product.

Maybe Derek hasn't responded to your question because it's incredibly insulting, as were your suggestions that he is "playing the victim." You claim that you don't take criticism personally, but you've responded to everyone who critiques the WP jig with slander, innuendo, and personal attacks. This will be my last response because I'm tired of being gaslighted. But maybe you should consider that if numerous people all offer variations of the same critique, it's because there's some truth there, and not because they're all out to get you.

[mike stenson]

Wow. This went totally sideways, what a complete waste of time.

[Will Blick]

> This will be my last response..

Thank you Steve, I think its best for the forum.


> But maybe you should consider that if numerous people all offer variations of the same critique, it's because there's some truth there, and not because they're all out to get you.

Steve, as I mentioned over, and over and over in this thread... I was, and have always been in full agreement with the pros n cons of the jig, other than an initial few wrong critiques, such as not being able to utilize the entire stone with a plane blade. But just like your previous posts, you have yet to grasped this and continue to harp on it a false premise. Please read the thread more thoroughly before making false personal accusations.

The issues being discussed have moved far beyond the critiques which as I mentioned over an over, I have NO issues with users listing pros n cons, that is whats called informative discussion.. Your contributions I can only classify as pot stirring. You seem to relish in adding fuel to a fire between others. I don't take your distracting posts personally Steve, as I have seen you do this to many others in this forum as well. I find it distracting, but its an open forum, and I am sure you will continue this in the future.


> Maybe Derek hasn't responded to your question because it's incredibly insulting, as were your suggestions that he is "playing the victim."

Whats wrong with transparency Steve? Is that now a bad thing also? Many reviewers start out with transparency when reviewing a product. I asked the question nicely several times, but no response. While you feel compelled too offer opinions on everything, (even when your facts are not accurate) then why should I not be afforded the same? It was very odd for Derek to take such a harsh position as he did here... vs. an objective pros n cons response.... that was NOT the case. Since I have read thousands of Derek's posts, I found this suspicious, and thought I would ask the simple question. As I wrote, if I was wrong, pls accept my apology in advance. Have you ever tried that?

[Derek Cohen]

It was very odd for Derek to take such a harsh position as he did here... vs. an objective pros n cons response.... that was NOT the case. Since I have read thousands of Derek's posts, I found this suspicious, and thought I would ask the simple question. As I wrote, if I was wrong, pls accept my apology in advance. Have you ever tried that?

Will, I really believe that you have read all manner of things into my comments that I did not make. The very last thing I do is attack people, and I have not attacked or criticised you. I do feel attacked and criticised by you, however, and I really cannot understand where you find reason for this. I did not reply earlier since there were enough flames being fanned, and am only replying so now since you once again made remarks about me. I do not wish to debate this thread any longer. Enough. Perhaps it would be a good thing for a moderator to remove the thread, and we can all then forget that it ever existed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Will Blick]

Derek, I explained in detail how your response was taken...
IMO, my explanation was sensible and rational, but you intentional ignore it or remedy it, that's your right.

But, I find it ironic that you now accuse me of attacking you...
If you go back and read threads on this forum, there prob. is NO ONE that has praised you more than I have over the years. I even did the same in this thread, of course, not recognized by you. In addition, I even offered you an advance apology if anything I wrote was not accurate.

Anyway, it is, what it is, we learn a lot about each other when things get heated.

I think this thread demonstrates the dangers of a simple product review. I know for sure, I would never contribute like this again the future. I am sure many others feel the same, its unfortunate for the forum.

Well we do agree on one thing...
I also suggest the moderator delete this entire thread, as it gives the forum a black eye, and can only dissuade others from attempting a product review.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I thought twice about starting this thread. I guess I lost my better judgement for a moment... lesson learned.

<snip>

In the future, I will surely refrain from starting these threads.

Please do NOT refrain from starting these threads!

This sharpener may be a good system for some people. And those considering it will like to hear the why should I buy it and why should I not buy it discussions.

Also, I would put money on the fact that Derek is not biased against WP products, but based on his usage, this product is not something that he would recommend for the reasons that he states.

The angle gauge is similar to what is provided by Tormek to determine the angle of the existing edge. It works well enough. I also like this one:

https://www.woodpeck.com/angle-gauge.html

I was a bit amused that I saw an image of their mini square being used but one is not included. This is one of my favorite squares when checking chisels in particular for a square edge

https://www.woodpeck.com/woodpeckers-mini-square.html


It would be a bit annoying having to move the wheels when moving from a plane blade to a chisel.

Their stuff is generally pretty good, so I expect it will work great for what it is advertised. I don't think that I have ever used a guide on a water stone, however, only on sand paper. I could be wrong, I just don't remember doing it; I have always free handed my blade after I ran it on my Tormek.

[Rafael Herrera]

... very well designed, blades stay square, nice feature with adjustable wheels as seen in their video. Feels good in my hand, easy to square the blade in the angle fixture. However, the angle fixture has fixed settings as stated on their web site, with micro hone positions as well.

This is the meat of your review. I don't feel persuaded to spend $250 to a tool like this. I get the same results on a $15 Eclipse style guide.


Since this ONE TIME TOOL is on its second run, and time is running out to order, have a look if you are considering a new honing system.

This sounds like a sales pitch.

[Will Blick]

Hi Andrew...

> Please do NOT refrain from starting these threads!

These forums are suppose to enjoyable. If you read through this thread, there is nothing enjoyable about it. So hopefully others will post reviews, but I don't blame them if they don't. When I read a review of something I might be interested, I thank the person for taking the time to write the review. Unfortunately, I am not the norm. This forum has a few who just ruin so many threads, they love to "stir the pot", fuel flames which they are not part of, those who make false accusations, like this new one just posted, it never ends!!!


In my OP... Since this ONE TIME TOOL is on its second run, and time is running out to order, have a look if you are considering a new honing system.

Then Rafael responds with this false accusation:

> This sounds like a sales pitch..

Yes Rafael, I am a secret agent for WP, you unfolded the great mystery! Brilliant! What another great contribution! No comment on the product, instead, Rafael got his crystal ball out and it determined I an agent for WP trying to drum up sales!

Really, if someone does not have anything constructive to say, why do they feel compelled to write anything. To create false accusations with no basis? Andrew, can you see why so many refuse to participate? Since the tool order date was ending, I thought I would make the post due to my good experience with the product. Sort of a "heads-up" to the group. But instead, Rafael assumes this must be a sales pitch for company ! You gotta love it, and have a good laugh !!!

As I wrote at least 5x now, I have zero affiliation with WP, I pay full retail price for every product I ever purchased from them. I have had lots of duds from WP, fortunately, they always stood behind their products when I returned them. So now I found one that works well, I offer to share it, and I now learn from Rafael, I am a secret agent working on behalf on WP! Great contribution Rafael!

Can this thread go any further sideways?? I bet YES!!!

[Rafael Herrera]

Will, you may further accuse me of being patronizing as well, but what do you expect? This is a forum populated by mostly a bunch of old guys that like to give their opinion about everything. Sharpening is one of those topics that cause a lot of drama. Expensive tools is another one of them. As much as we like to give our opinions, we should be prepared to take it when people don't agree with us.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hi Andrew...

> Please do NOT refrain from starting these threads!

These forums are suppose to enjoyable. If you read through this thread, there is nothing enjoyable about it.

I learned some things by reading the thread even if I was unsettled by some of the behavior / responses.

[Will Blick]

> you may further accuse me of being patronizing as well, but what do you expect?

Expect? Not to make false accusations that you have no basis for? Is that expecting too much? It appears so!


> This is a forum populated by mostly a bunch of old guys that like to give their opinion about everything.

But Rafael, what about giving opinions on the product vs. opinions on crazy speculations that I must be an agent of WP? I don't get it... I am old too... I would never write that about someone.


> As much as we like to give our opinions, we should be prepared to take it when people don't agree with us.

Your only comment was about me being a possible agent for WP. I should take your wild speculation without response? This thread was about a sharpening jig... now you twisted it into the OP being a secret agent for the maker! Sorry, I don't consider this civil discourse. But, its an open forum, I guess you can accuse anyone and everyone of whatever you see fit. I personally think it just degrades the forum. But as long as the moderators allow it, its fair game, but what a waste of time!!

[ken hatch]

Wiil,

I would strongly suggest that you drop it and get back to living your life.

This is not being critical but you have not been doing yourself any favors by continuing to air your grievances.

As a could be friend,

ken

[Will Blick]

> I get the same results on a $15 Eclipse style guide.


Rafael.. I forgot your comment on your other part of the post, cause I was more amused about you exposing me as a secret agent ;)

You mentioned previously, I have to accept people disagreeing... well case in point... if you can get the same results with an Eclipse style jig, it would make NO sense whatsoever to buy this WP this costly WP jig! I fully support your assessment 100%!
Since you seem to own a crystal ball.... why do you think WP is on v2.0 on this product within a year?


> This is the meat of your review. I don't feel persuaded to spend $250 to a tool like this.

Your comment is very misleading. My goal was NEVER to persuade anyone to buy anything! My goal was to share my experience of a product that has had almost no reviews. Comments like yours will prevent me and many others from sharing our experiences in the future. If that was your (and others) end goal, you succeeded! Congrats!

[Stephen Rosenthal]

To paraphrase William Shakespeare, methinks the OP doth protest too much.

[Will Blick]

Thx for the Shakespear Stephen!
Just responding to posts, not initiating any protests.

[Frederick Skelly]

I am not big on promoting products.
I know on this site, WP has some detractors, some fanboys, etc.
I am happy with some of their products, others seemed half baked, others a bit high priced, etc. But for me, each product stands on its own merits and value.
I have been though a LOT of honing guides and systems including power systems. I don't sharpen freehand.
The WP honing system IMO, the best one ever made... very well designed, blades stay square, nice feature with adjustable wheels as seen in their video. Feels good in my hand, easy to square the blade in the angle fixture. However, the angle fixture has fixed settings as stated on their web site, with micro hone positions as well.

Since this ONE TIME TOOL is on its second run, and time is running out to order, have a look if you are considering a new honing system. I have ordered WP products before, when not happy, they have always stood behind their 30 day Money Back guarantee.
I just ordered a second honing guide without the angle fixture as only one of those is required. I ordered the original kit on the first run. I consider this product fairly priced considering the quality and design.


Thanks for posting this review. I probably wont buy this product, because I have the Mk-II and all its accessories. But I wasn't aware of the WP until you reviewed it and I was glad to learn about it.
Fred

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Will, I really believe that you have read all manner of things into my comments that I did not make. The very last thing I do is attack people, and I have not attacked or criticised you. I do feel attacked and criticised by you, however, and I really cannot understand where you find reason for this.

I agree and applaud you Derek!

[Goodwin Heil]

What I took away from Rafeal's post pertaining to "sales pitches" was that WP was using that as marketing hype. This is what I have always thought when I watched their ads. Similar to a car salesman saying if you do not buy this car today, it will be gone tomorrow.
Will, your immediate and virulent attack on Rafeal and taking it extremely personal detracts from the veracity of your review. If I understand you correctly, You are comfortable spending that amount of money on a guide, while some of us are not. You consider it money well spent, which is really all that matters. You desired to present it as another option to the rest of us in good faith. I would think you made all your points.

[Will Blick]

Rafael was responding to my written words, NOT WP's videos.

I do agree with your point.... WP videos and marketing style revolves around, ONE TIME TOOLS, that often run more than ONE TIME. And there is a bit of pressure to buy now, or you may never get another chance. I was always unsure if this is a pure marketing tactic, or its a financial decision, i.e. They can't risk doing a production run using their own cash, then allowing the product to sit in inventory hoping to sell it. This is a heavy outlay of cash. The system they employ, the customers finance their inventory up front. As a consumer, not ideal, but it might be the only way they can make their business model work. They are a private company and prob. not flushed with working capital. Just speculation.

I do notice they now are stocking some products though, maybe that will evolve through the years. BCT was the same until recently.

Fred, thank your commenting on the PRODUCT REVIEW! Reading most of the posts, I almost forgot this thread was about the use of a new product! I always wondered why there was so few product reviews on SMC, well, I learned the hard way! This review did serve a useful purpose IMO, it demonstrate to future members the risks of posting product reviews!

While I would NEVER initiate a thread like this again, I will continue to be grateful for those who do, and can better withstand the digital fire.

[Rob Lee]

Rafael was responding to my written words, NOT WP's videos.


While I would NEVER initiate a thread like this again, I will continue to be grateful for those who do, and can better withstand the digital fire.



Does this mean you don't want to be involved with the two new honing guides we're releasing this fall???


:)

Cheers -

Rob

(kicking off tease season..... )

[Will Blick]

Argggg...
Rob wish I had this information prior before I made the $400 WP plunge
You know I buy all things LV...will prob. buy it anyway to support your company.
but correct, I would never risk writing a review on the guide, at least on this forum...
why?
Responses:
Shakespeare
Waste of money
Unsolicited life advise
Personal attacks

I am sure the people on this list you give advance product to - will review it on SMC.
if that is the case, despite this debacle, I would give him the same response I always do...
Thank you Derek for taking the time to share your experience with this product.

Fair enough?

[Rob Lee]

Argggg...
(snip)

but correct, I would never risk writing a review on the guide, at least on this forum...
why?
Responses:
Shakespeare
Waste of money
Unsolicited life advise
Personal attacks

(snip)


Hi - I hear that, and remember all of the people who used to be regular contributors on this and other boards, until they tired of the reactions to posted reviews....

Everyone's preferences and workflow are valid - there are no absolutes when it comes to craft.... that's why there are so many choices: no one can claim to have an ultimate solution.

Guides in particular are tricky. Most excel at a narrow range of function - and try to broaden that scope to appeal to many more users. The two we will release are certainly not aimed at replacing anything.

Guide #1 is a design I posted a photo of several years ago in more than one forum. It's one we decided not to produce at the time - but have recently re-visited, and tweaked a bit.

Guide #2 is designed to handle all of the weird stuff that no guide currently handles - especially small weirdly shaped blades.....

Neither should replace anything you may have now - nor will either necessarily solve a problem you have.... only you can decide that!

Cheers -

Rob

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Guide #2 is designed to handle all of the weird stuff that no guide currently handles - especially small weirdly shaped blades.....

My first thought was "Scrub Plane"; I don't expect that anytime soon! :D

Edit

On second thought add in anything skewed as well.

[Will Blick]

Rob, as you read these forums, the biggest problem many of us have with the MKII is getting and keeping plane blades square in the jig....
so I assume that will not be addressed in these future products?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hi - I hear that, and remember all of the people who used to be regular contributors on this and other boards, until they tired of the reactions to posted reviews....

Everyone's preferences and workflow are valid - there are no absolutes when it comes to craft.... that's why there are so many choices: no one can claim to have an ultimate solution.

Guides in particular are tricky. Most excel at a narrow range of function - and try to broaden that scope to appeal to many more users. The two we will release are certainly not aimed at replacing anything.

Guide #1 is a design I posted a photo of several years ago in more than one forum. It's one we decided not to produce at the time - but have recently re-visited, and tweaked a bit.

Guide #2 is designed to handle all of the weird stuff that no guide currently handles - especially small weirdly shaped blades.....

Neither should replace anything you may have now - nor will either necessarily solve a problem you have.... only you can decide that!

Cheers -

Rob

Wait a minute, can this sharpen the Veritas Detail Chisels that I LOVE. I guess they did not sell well since they are no longer sold, but when I am doing hand cut dovetails on a tiny box, these are what I use. My sister just asked me to make her one. Yeah, most people just cut a 45 and glue it for a box this small, but where is the fun in that.

I don't think it is possible for a guide to be able to handle something that small.... I think I need to just stop thinking about all those things that I have a problem sharpening. I am better at sharpening than I used to be, but still.

[Rob Lee]

Rob, as you read these forums, the biggest problem many of us have with the MKII is getting and keeping plane blades square in the jig....
so I assume that will not be addressed in these future products?

The first jig will only do square ..... the second has no built in blade orientation or reference - and two basic angles (25 and 30), and will hold a large range of shapes sizes, as long as they're small, or short.....

Cheers -

Rob

[Erich Weidner]

Rob, as you read these forums, the biggest problem many of us have with the MKII is getting and keeping plane blades square in the jig....
so I assume that will not be addressed in these future products?

I have had some struggles keeping the blades straight in the MK II. (But much better than in the MK I) I've started cranking down the knurled knobs with pliers and that has helped a lot. Finger tightening wasn't working in all cases for me.
I just got a pair of soft jaw pliers so I can keep my pretty brass knurls... all pretty.

[Will Blick]

I used pliers ALWAYS
I put some hard adhesive backed foam on top and bottom, that helps a little too...
I get it square, using the mini WP square (perfect for this task)
I gently use the guide on the stones, and when done, I re check square...
more than half the time, its no longer square. Super frustrating, hence why I thought I would start this post. I called LV tech, they were super helpful and courteous, as always... they even sent me another one to try, but, same issue.

[Rafael Herrera]

I prepared an old Sargent & Co. tapered iron as a scrub blade for my wooden jack. It's a hefty 2 1/4" wide by 7 3/4" long iron. Perhaps pursuing precise angles using guides and other aids provides some satisfaction, but at this level at least, it does not make a big difference. It took about 1 hour and a half to prepare the blade.

440614
These are pictures of the iron after the rust was cleaned. The edge was badly chipped, a straight line drawn on the face of the iron was used to guide me to grind the camber on a bench grinder. The radius is roughly 10".

440615
The face of the iron, it had moderate pitting in the middle. The reason why I decided to make it a scrub iron.

440616
I think this took about 30 minutes. The pitting is almost gone. Sand paper and diamond stones. The mirror finish is easily achieved with a strop and fine buffing compound.

440617
The bevel sharpened free hand with a Washita stone and then stropped.

I find this satisfying.

I don't believe I need more than a cheap honing guide for the times I need to reset a blade to get the task done. I would rather spend the limited budget I have buying more vintage irons or chisels.

Will, if I offended you with my previous responses please accept my apologies. Each one of us are into this hobby for different reasons, whatever they are they're important to us and we want to share them sometimes, we don't always get the response or reactions we expect, though.

Cheers,

Rafael

[Will Blick]

> if I offended you with my previous responses please accept my apologies.

Accepted, TY Rafael...


I will mention, when I sharpen my scrub plane blades, often I just freehand it, cause its not critical for anything, its a scrub. The work it performs is rough, not precise.

However, I do a lot of planing on edges and ends, to get them square to my jointed faces and to each other. So I want the blade edges STRAIGHT and prefer them square. Straight is most critical, as I can adjust the plane blade in the plane for non squareness. However, when using the MKII, often the micro bevel pattern that is easily visible as it becomes mirror like, does not even touch one of the edges. It can fall out of square that far... now granted, the micro bevel has very small height to it so it only requires a little non squareness for this to happen, prob. less than 1 deg, without doing the math. I am not trying to maintain 90deg +/- .01 deg here... I am trying to re sharpen the micro bevel edge, from end to end. That is the amount of squareness I am seeking.

I will also mention, some eclipse honing guides I have had reasonably good luck with (not all). The WP is a sophisticated version of this, but with more precision and easy setting of blades in the honing guide. It is also easily repeatable. Granted, a similar set up block can be hand made using the particulars of your honing guide and some math. For me, I prefer to buy tools vs. build them, so I can dedicate the shop time I have towards projects.

Also, I am not knocking the MKII jig. Yes, I have had problems with it in this regard. But its a very well designed sharpening system at a very competitive price point. I also think the blade setting design is excellent, and repeatable.

While LV is putting time and energy into sharpening products now, maybe LV will offer an MKII optional clamp bar with a means to maintain squareness when setting and while in use. Possibly adding a material on the underside as well. Increasing the diam of the knurled nuts for added tightness without tools would also be helpful. This will allow existing MKII users who want more reliable squareness, a low cost optional add-on. Rob, thoughts?

[Charles Guest]

I read an article several years ago about the success of Starbucks. The article was accompanied by a very nifty, sort of cartoon illustration of two coffee cups: one had $.50 written on it (they used the "cents" mark) with a fat red slash through the price, the other cup had $3.50 written on it along with the Starbucks logo.

Choice in a range of price points it a good thing.

[Rob Lee]

(snip)

While LV is putting time and energy into sharpening products now, maybe LV will offer an MKII optional clamp bar with a means to maintain squareness when setting and while in use. Possibly adding a material on the underside as well. Increasing the diam of the knurled nuts for added tightness without tools would also be helpful. This will allow existing MKII users who want more reliable squareness, a low cost optional add-on. Rob, thoughts?

Hi Will -

Every honing guide out there is designed to handle a range of tools and conditions - and ours is no different. Understanding that designing a tool to hold products made by others is a bit of a challenge, as geometry and tolerances can vary substantially from tool to tool, tapers and irregular surfaces etc. The MKII is designed to register off of the back and RH side of a bevel up blade - and use a moving clamp bar to seat properly on a tapered or irregular surface. As the bar is floating, and has two tightenening knobs, users have to ensure they tighten the knobs evenly, to provide even clamping pressure across the blade being held. This is straight forward to do with wide blades, and becomes fiddly to do with narrow blades (which is why we also offer a narrow jaw attachment).

Application of more pressure on the clamp bar is not the answer here - though that's what some do - in order to flex the bar to make contact with both edges of a blade clamped unevenly. If you think about it - a jig really doesn't have to hold a blade any tighter than your hands would - if sharpening freehand. The goal of a jig is to maintain repeatability - and restraining movement is all that's necessary.

Something else to consider - grip, technique and force can all override geometry maintained by a jig. If you apply pressure unevenly, or continually sharpen with a feed bias - you will still sharpen on a skew - even if the blade is held perfectly square.

I use the original MKI guide (with the swivel pad). I can put a blade in it 5 degrees or more off of square - and still sharpen an edge bang on square. To do this - I am counting on even finger pressure across the blade to register the bevel on the store - and the roller of the guide to maintain the angle - "squareness" doesn't enter into it. Now - for a narrow blade - that approach is less effective - as there's less bevel to register the blade - though the jig still maintains the angle. I thing of the jig I use as "training wheels" for honing - my hand position, grip, and application of force still trumps the jig's expression of geometry - though if I am careful setting it up - the jig will control what goes on. I just don't use it that way.....

The MKII is designed to express more geometry than the MKI, but it is still not user agnostic. It adds the removable projection/squaring jig – but still allows users to use technique to override the set geometry – though a bit more difficult to do. It can still handle skewed blades as well as straight. There is also a limit to how “immobile” a blade can be clamped – as it is not grabbing the blade – just restraining it through applied pressure. (the difference between holding something by pressing your palms together versus grasping it fully using your fingers too). It is an important part of the design – but then relies on the user to set/maintain squarenes.

I could keep going – but will pause here for additional comments/questions (and head into a long meeting….!)

Cheers –

Rob

[James Pallas]

I’ve owned and used a Mark II for several years. I have never had problems described by many. Properly set up and used it works fine. I guess you could have problems if a chisel or iron is not parallel front to back or is tapered. The jig is hand manipulated so that affects outcomes. If you want better you need machine grinder where everything but the grinding wheel is fixed. And yes it’s easy to see a thousandth of an inch if on a beveled edge. In a hand operation that can have you chasing your tail.

[Will Blick]

Great post Rob.... thx.
Of course, very valid points on the universal nature of the honing guide... you are trying to clamp different makers plane blades, chisels, etc. As I mentioned, I do think the MKII was well thought out and very universal with all the attachments.

I have spent a lot of time with the MKII and have struggled to keep plane blades square. Others report the same. And you mention this should be an easy task ;) (vs. thin chisel)
I do the left/right/left tightening method up n back, it never solves the problem completely, although it helps. Pliers help more, but I agree, this should not be required.

I do agree with others, its prob. easier to keep a plane blade square in the guide if its clamped by the sides vs. the top. This assumes the blade sides are parallel. If not, than that can be problematic. And even then, the sides of the clamp must also be parallel and straight.

Also, when you place the depth setting part on the guide, the way it sits / tightens, it also is not always square, so this is one of variables that can get the user off to a non square start. Just to be clear, I am realistic, these are not high precision machined parts, they are cast parts, which has much lower tolerances. At the price point you sell this guide at, I certainly don't expect machined precision parts. I have mentioned this several times throughout the thread.

I have also, "kinda" tried what you suggested, i.e. I look at the blade and see where the micro bevel is not getting enough on the stone, so I shift my finger weight to that side, but its of minimal benefit.

However, you present this in a different light....
you tend to use the guide like freehand honing, and let the wheel lightly ride the stone to assure the bevel angle is proper. That is "a difference with a distinction!" When I return to my shop, I will have to try that. I tend to ride the wheel with 30-40% of my finger force. Possibly 5-10% of finger force on the wheel will overcome the non squareness issue. I would think using the camber wheel will further enhance this technique as the camber wheel does not influence your finger pressure on the edge as the flat wheel would. The camber wheel will not resist the users front finger pressure.... I think.

But for the average person learning to hone plane blades, ideally the guide holding the blade square with minimal effort is still desirable. But as you mention, there is so many variables at play, maybe squareness is an unrealistic expectation for a universal guide. Compensating with finger pressure more at the blade edge could be a simple technique solution. Of course, as you mention, the smaller the blade width, like a 1/8" chisel, this becomes more difficult as you lose the feel of the blade edge to stone.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I used pliers ALWAYS
I put some hard adhesive backed foam on top and bottom, that helps a little too...
I get it square, using the mini WP square (perfect for this task)
I gently use the guide on the stones, and when done, I re check square...
more than half the time, its no longer square. Super frustrating, hence why I thought I would start this post. I called LV tech, they were super helpful and courteous, as always... they even sent me another one to try, but, same issue.

You will notice that some people have problems and some people do not. My assumption is that either (1) those who do not have problems simply do not notice it OR (2) something about the way that you use it.

I used to own a worksharp with those spinning disks. I could not consistently get an edge that was perpendicular to the side of the blade. I assumed that it was me #2 above, especially since people who I think would notice the difference did not have a problem with it and loved it. So, I just assumed that the problem was technique and that I would not likely get it right, so, I gave it to a friend and I purchased a used Tormek that gave me great results from the start.

I don't remember having problems with my LV II system, but, it sees very little use now that I have a the Tormek and then I usually free hand what is left. Most of my other blades that don't work in the Tormek also will not work in the LV II system (too small) so I am stuck free handing those. I expect that if i was not getting things square with my LV II back when I used it very often, I would have fallen into (1) above and probably (2) above :eek:

I hope that you find something that works well for you. Would be nice if someone near by could share (in person) how they do it and you could collaborate. Next time you are in Columbus Ohio, bring something to sharpen!

[Will Blick]

> I hope that you find something that works well for you.

ahhh, the entire purpose of this thread was.... to share the good news.... the WP honing jig keeps things square! remember?


> My assumption is that either (1) those who do not have problems simply do not notice it OR (2) something about the way that you use it.

or, 3) some MKII jig attachments are cast better than others, making square easier to achiever for some? Dunno, I have not tested more than the two I have had... the fact that others report the same issue here, demonstrates it does happen. The fact that some users report not having the square problem leads me to think some have an MKII whereas the cast parts fit more square.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

ahhh, the entire purpose of this thread was.... to share the good news.... the WP honing jig keeps things square! remember?

Sharpening thread, surely you did not expect anyone to stay on topic! :D




or, 3) some MKII jig attachments are cast better than others, making square easier to achiever for some? Dunno, I have not tested more than the two I have had... the fact that others report the same issue here, demonstrates it does happen. The fact that some users report not having the square problem leads me to think some have an MKII whereas the cast parts fit more square.

Possible, but not typical for LV. I have a Montgomery Wards block plane that I spent hours trying to fix before I realized that the real issue was a casting problem in the plane. Nothing I did was ever going to make that thing work. I don't even remember if i did the sensible thing and pitched it or kept it because my Father gave it to me. Could even be (4) a design flaw.

If I remember correctly, you did order the WP honing jig. Be sure to post on how you like it or do not. I have some products from them that I absolutely love, and I have had a few that I should have thought about more before I bought them. Not necessarily a problem with the product, just something that I do not use.

[Will Blick]

> If I remember correctly, you did order the WP honing jig. Be sure to post on how you like it or do not.

I will repeat what I originally wrote in this thread. I own the WP honing jig. I have been using it for 4+ months. It keeps my plane blades square. Then I wrote, I liked it so much, I ordered a 2nd guide (not the mounting jig), in which the final order date was fast approaching, hence why I made the thread. Is this more clear?


> Possible, but not typical for LV.

Remember, these are low costs products, high precision can not be expected. My experience is, molds get altered through use... a mold has a useful life, as the tolerance of the mold continues to change when exposed to heat, wear n tear, etc. The mold can therefore produce varying outcomes through out its useful life. In this case the mounting parts to the jig can be square on some, and not on others. Or, it could be errors cancel out on some. This can happen when you have matting parts.


> Sharpening thread, surely you did not expect anyone to stay on topic!

yeah, what was I thinking! my bad...