AT&T DSL - The Saga Continues

[Bruce Wrenn]

From my previous post about sloooow DSL, an update. Tech was scheduled to be on site on Tuesday, between 8:00 AM,and Noon. About One PM we get a recorded call from AT&T. Recording started while answering machine was talking. Voice on call did not have English as a primary language, plus sounds like a fax machine were also playing along, with our voice on answering machine. Any way, tech arrives at 5:50 PM. He asks how long we have had DSL, and I tell him over ten years. Then wants to know if AT&T had ever replaced router. They hadn't, but about eight years ago when AT&T's original router failed, I had replaced it at my expense with a Net Gear wireless router, so he said most likely router had failed, and AT&T would install a new one at no charge. Gets new router installed, but it wouldn't work. Finally goes to switch and plugs us into another port. Unfortunately, he couldn't get router to work. Finally at nine PM, he says someone from tech support needs to come and fix problem. Remember this was Tuesday. With him getting back to shop around Ten PM, I didn't expect to hear from AT&T on Wednesday, but I did expect to hear from them today. NOPE, it didn't happen, BUT. After tech left, plugged in my old router, and guess what? YEP! It worked. So poor tech was fighting two fires with only one fire extinguisher. The connection to switch was bad, and new router was also bad. I feel for tech, but whole three hours wasn't wasted, as new port solved the connection problem. Maybe AT&T will call tomorrow? Not holding my breath while waiting.

[Lisa Starr]

I've found that techs often blame the modem/router, and routers do go bad, but often there is another underlying problem that they need to fix. I keep a known good modem/router, configured to work on my system as a backup. Then when they blame the router I can say nope, plug in the known good, and show the problem is still not resolved.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Unfortunately, tech couldn't get new router to latch on to either my computer, or his lap top. He tried everything according to the book, including getting help on the line. Help on the line hung up on him two or three times, so I don't feel special anymore. BUT, I spoke TOO SOON. Last night, right at ten PM speed dropped from 639KBS to less than 100KBS. As soon as it dropped, AT&T's little box pops up saying "Experiencing interuptions?" For a few minutes this morning, it returned to 640KBS, and then dropped to 100 KBS. Spent another half hour on phone with customer support. Tech there ran line tests and tried to reboot router (mine, as theirs is sitting on desk, unconnected.) I took router outside to interface box,and plugged it in directly, and speed was less than 100KBS. Can't run speed test using AT&T's speed test, as it won't connect due to slow speed. Tech is scheduled for Tuesday afternoon. The saga continues!

[Curt Harms]

I don't know if this is your case Bruce, but there are reports in Verizon's service area of the copper system having the absolute minimum done to it to support voice service. DSL? Get cable or cellular. Verizon is replacing copper in some places with fiber. Fiber costs more to install but substantially less to maintain and is more reliable from what I've read.

[Jim Becker]

I don't know if this is your case Bruce, but there are reports in Verizon's service area of the copper system having the absolute minimum done to it to support voice service. DSL? Get cable or cellular. Verizon is replacing copper in some places with fiber. Fiber costs more to install but substantially less to maintain and is more reliable from what I've read.
Late last year, VZ formally announced complete decommissioning of copper plant (including in our whole area) that was supposed to be completed this coming month. FiOS was the stated replacement so anyone not already on it within the wiring center footprints affected would be transitioned automatically to fiber service for whatever services they were already getting from VZ. COVID-19 has made for some delays for final turn down in some cases. There are many areas that were not part of the plan...NE PA, where I grew up, for example, stays the same with what you mentioned as "minimum" support for the copper plant. There's some speculation that those areas might get sold off as they are largely rural and not exactly a great patch to string fiber economically.

[Bruce Wrenn]

AT&T has absolutely no interest in upgrading from copper in our area, as we are at the end of their service area. Century Link is on the other side of the creek. Spectrum is at top of hill on other side of creek, but doesn't want to string 5000' of fiber to serve 18 houses. Again, I wish I had "third world internet." It would be an improvement. Maybe I can ask the Bill Gates Foundation for a grant to get us working internet.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Today have gotten three calls from AT&T to confirm appt, for Tuesday afternoon. One small problem, we NEVER answer our land line, instead we let answering machine pick up. Seldom is there any message left (maybe one out of a hundred.) AT&T prerecorded message starts while answering machine is talking. I'm not sure why I need to confirm appt., as last week had a window from eight till noon. Waited, but tech didn't arrive till ten till six. He stayed till a little after nine PM. Still, no one from AT&T has contacted me for a follow up to finish work, I had to call them.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Got the COVID call early this morning. Didn't need to call back as we haven't any symptoms, nor been around anyone who does. Tech was SUPPOSED to arrive between 1:00 PM and 5:00 PM. Got automated call around 4:00 PM, saying "see you soon." Not sure what "see you soon" means, but it's now 8:20 PM, and no tech. Poor techs are over worked, and over scheduled. If internet was a regulated utility, tomorrow, I would be on phone with utilities commission, but it isn't, so there is nothing that can be done about lousy service. Customer service for DSL is located in Central Time Zone, and don't open till 8:30 CDT, which means techs in Eastern Time Zone are long gone before you can contact anyone about the no show.Take it, or leave it, with no other choices.

[Curt Harms]

I guess internet service is viewed as a luxury not a necessity by utility regulators so little effort to force minimum service. Of course the big telecom companies spend megabucks to ensure that perception continues. Internet service used to be a convenience, it becomes a necsessity when some required functions - filing business paperwork and taxes come to mind - can only be done practically online.What does gripe my butt is that those same telecom companies make it pretty much impossible for communities to install their own utilities. You and your neighbors could possibly install your own infrastructure using an electrical contractor and arrange service from one of the nearby ISPs. I'll bet there are umpteen regulatory and policy reasons why you can't do that though. When I was growing up in the upper midwest telephone service was provided by a stock funded local company. I remember it working pretty well, party lines and all. Good luck starting something like that today.

[Jim Becker]

I guess internet service is viewed as a luxury not a necessity by utility regulators so little effort to force minimum service.

Curt, it's simpler than that...it's not regulated at all. That's also one of the reasons that the carriers have moved as many services as they can to IP because unlike the copper networks where there was government money involved and resulting service requirements, once the carrier moves to their "own" infrastructure (such as FiOS or a cable type environment) they step over the line to unregulated services.

[Bruce Wrenn]

I guess internet service is viewed as a luxury not a necessity by utility regulators so little effort to force minimum service. Of course the big telecom companies spend megabucks to ensure that perception continues. Internet service used to be a convenience, it becomes a necsessity when some required functions - filing business paperwork and taxes come to mind - can only be done practically online.What does gripe my butt is that those same telecom companies make it pretty much impossible for communities to install their own utilities. You and your neighbors could possibly install your own infrastructure using an electrical contractor and arrange service from one of the nearby ISPs. I'll bet there are umpteen regulatory and policy reasons why you can't do that though. When I was growing up in the upper midwest telephone service was provided by a stock funded local company. I remember it working pretty well, party lines and all. Good luck starting something like that today.City of Wilson did such. Both Cary and Holly Springs were in the act of running fiber when legislator was BRIBED by ISP's to put an end to towns being in internet business. Friend lives in rural VERY RURAL southwest VA. Local telephone co-op ran fiber over whole county. Wilson is limited to supplying only in town limits. Many businesses out side of town requested to be annexed just to get internet. In Holly Springs, Century link only offered about 60MBS, till Ping leased town's fiber network'

[Bruce Wrenn]

Update. Yesterday tech didn't show up. Both wife and I were home all day. Neither of us left the property, except when I walked out to get the mail. If tech had come, I would have passed him in driveway. (We live about 800 feet off road.) Called customer support this morning. They looked up ticket and it said Closed @ 5:00 PM Tuesday. Remember that AT&T called around 4:30 saying "See you soon." Closed means FIXED. How could it be fixed if no one came out? CS guy ran line test and confirmed problem was in their line, not the router. Have a SCHEDULED service on Friday morning (8-12 AM.) This is third time for service to be fixed. Not holding my breath while waiting.Friday morning when tech arrives, if he / she does, I'm going to have a shovel at point of service. Tell them to start digging till they find the problem. Two of my neighbors used have AT&T out almost daily till they switched to Hughs.

[Curt Harms]

Curt, it's simpler than that...it's not regulated at all. That's also one of the reasons that the carriers have moved as many services as they can to IP because unlike the copper networks where there was government money involved and resulting service requirements, once the carrier moves to their "own" infrastructure (such as FiOS or a cable type environment) they step over the line to unregulated services.

That makes sense. I think of the highway/trucks/traffic model. In most cases some government entity owns the road, individuals and private enterprise runs the vast majority of the traffic on those roads. I'm not sure if such a model would work with communications infrastructure or if that horse bolted long ago. Too much private $$$ invested. I am not one to call for increased government involvement in our lives but this might be one case where it makes sense.

[Jim Becker]

When Divestiture happened (the breakup of the former "Bell" system), there was a requirement that each entity meet certain standards for service on the infrastructure they were to oversee because that infrastructure was heavily subsidized during all those years of what was essentially a monopoly for phone service. The key word here is "phone"...voice communication...and in the context of the existing copper network and it's supports. Rates and service expectations were (and still are to some extent) heavily regulated for phone calls that pass over that network. Add on services like DSL that came later had some regulation attached in that incumbent carriers were required to provide access to the "last mile" for alternative ISP providers and there was a bunch of nip and tuck action around things like bundling of phone and DSL and whether or not an incumbent carrier could require phone service to get DSL service. (there were battles over that for sure) The regulators were able to do things like require competitive access because the government paid a big chunk of the bill for the copper plant. Fast forward to today...most of the "incumbent" carriers have installed new infrastructure with their own money. Using Verizon as an example because for you and I, they are "our" incumbent carrier, they have essentially replaced the old copper plant with fiber branded as FiOS. That plant supports phone, Internet and TV over the same connection. The phone service, relating back to the start if this post, with few exceptions, is provided as a non-regulated service using VoIP and softswitches rather than the older "big iron" Lucent and Nortel branded gear over copper wire. They do not have the restrictions/requirements that they had on the copper network for phone service anymore. They are not required to share the fiber network with any other entity for phone or any other service. They do provide public access channels on the TV side which is to be expected because of the need to have local and/or state franchises for TV service in most, if not all, jurisdictions, just like the traditional "cable" providers like Comcast. They were free to require bundling to get best prices, although at the present time, they have moved to offering a "mix and match", pick what you actually want, pricing structure, but without price guarantees/contract. They, like every other big "ISP" are realizing that the "pipe" is ultimately what they are going to make their money on. Local/landline phone service is dying as a volume service and there are so many entertainment choices, that TV subscriptions are becoming harder to cost justify. Comcast is struggling with the same, just to be fair. More and more folks want the Internet pipe and to choose only the entertainment they desire rather than big bundles. (That's starting to backfire a little for consumers since cost for streaming from Hulu+LiveTV, YouTubeTIV and others has creeped up to "cable company" pricing levels) BTW, VZ is quickly moving to where their FiOS network and their wireless network are the same infrastructure under their One Network initiative. It has a way to go, but that's the path they are taking.

[Frank Pratt]

Paragraphs please Jim :)

[Jim Becker]

Paragraphs please Jim :)


One of the VERY rare moments that I was posting from my phone instead of my computer.

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[Bruce Wrenn]

Got a call around 12:30, saying "See You SOON." Remember my time slot was 8-12. Tech never came to house, but around 3:15 my internet speed returned to the 600+ KBS range. Was able to watch porn, wood porn that is, on you tube without a circle spinning in middle of the screen for the majority of the time. Still not lightening fast, but adequate for my needs.

[Curt Harms]

BTW, VZ is quickly moving to where their FiOS network and their wireless network are the same infrastructure under their One Network initiative. It has a way to go, but that's the path they are taking.

I've read speculation that 5G might result in more fiber pulled in the U.S. Apparently 5G 'transceivers' don't have the range of previous technology so will require more closely spaced transceivers each supplied by fiber so more fiber. Whether that network will be used for home internet access is anyone's guess.

[Bruce Wrenn]

AT&T tech spent the day with us yesterday. When he arrived, he said he was on the janitorial staff, meaning he had to clean up the mess left by other techs. Corrected several problems on their cable, plus replaced a phone jack in the house. Informed me that the ADSL we have is no longer being supported, and we need to switch to IPSL. Called CS, and was told it its not available in our area. (CS is in India.) Tech gets on phone and talks to CS rep, who had no idea of what tech was asking for. Tech says he knows for a fact that IPSL is available in our area, as in the last six months they had hooked up neighbor. This is one of neighbors who went to Hughs, but canceled service as Hughs couldn't service to work. Walk over to neighbors house with tech to get neighbor's account number, so he could check on Tuesday (Monday is a holiday for engineers, but not techs) with engineers and see if it's available. While at neighbors, she had to look up account using her phone as her IPSL wouldn't open. Tech took the time to correct AT&T's problems that were preventing their IPSL from working. She was a HAPPY CAMPER to finally have internet that actually works. This is same neighbor who said my internet was so much faster than theirs. When tech left, both phone and internet are working, plus wiring has been upgraded for IPSL when we can get it. It is SO NICE to get someone WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING! YEAH for Brian!

[Jim Becker]

I've read speculation that 5G might result in more fiber pulled in the U.S. Apparently 5G 'transceivers' don't have the range of previous technology so will require more closely spaced transceivers each supplied by fiber so more fiber. Whether that network will be used for home internet access is anyone's guess.
Yes, it will result in more fiber in areas outside of major metropolitan areas because it's the ideal back-haul from the base stations.

However, sometime important to understand about 5G is that how it's implemented is important relative to speed and distance as well as contiguous frequency bandwidth. This is the reason that TMobile already has nationwide coverage...they went with low- and mid-band frequencies that can operate from existing towers because those frequencies can travel much farther than the high-band 5G frequencies. So the upside to that approach is that they get better distance and building penetration at the cost of much lower speeds...only about 20% higher than 4G LTE. (They also can't fully utilize the spectrum they have...yet...because a good chunk of it is still needed to support former Sprint LTE customers)

Verizon and ATT have ignored the rural areas to-date and have been focusing on high-band 5G implementation. The upside? MUCH higher speeds possible--multi-gigabit potentially. The downside? Base stations that need to be 1500-3000' apart maximum and poor building penetration. You can see the base station separation right in Doylestown that Castle Crown installed to initially support VZ's 5G. (and in Warminster) Someone else has some base stations over north of Peddler's Village for two communities there. I've seen similar down in South Florida where ATT is the incumbent provider due to their assimilation of Bell South awhile ago.

It's likely that VZ and ATT will eventually adopt the low- and mid-band 5G frequencies (where they have spectrum) to support more rural areas where it's not practical to have base stations every few thousand feet. At the same time, it's likely that TMobile will add high-band frequencies in more urban areas (where they have available spectrum) to kick things up speed-wise, too.

BTW, one of my big concerns about folks using 5G for fixed internet access is if the providers decide to have arduous bandwidth caps that are low enough that "normal" use for this day and time starts to cost big bucks...things like streaming, video conferencing, etc., that require larger amounts of bandwidth.

[Jim Becker]

Bruce, that sounds promising...'hope that "cleaner" can get you setup properly going forward.