Well tank full of water and short cycling?

[Travis Conner]

I had an inspector come check out the well and septic system on a place im looking to buy. He said everything looked good except the well tank was full of water and should only be about half full, thus causing the pump to short cycle. Anyone know anything about wells. He said this can be fixed by draining it down to the correct level. Something about air compresses and and water doesn't, so that's why it was short cycling and going from 30 to 50 psi in about 5 seconds. When they replaced the pump motor they must not have drained the tank down enough. Am I understanding this right? What I dont understand is why did I were money on an inspector vs just having a repair guy look at the well and septic and he could have just fixed it. I'll have to ask my realtor, but is what the inspector saying sound correct?

[Tom M King]

How old is the tank? If you have to add air, something else is probably wrong, unless someone changed the pressure switch to a different pressure. I've never had any experience but once you have problems with the tank holding pressure, the fix is to replace the tank.

The tanks come precharged, but do have a valve to adjust the pressure. Changing the pump shouldn't matter for the tank.

edited to add: I did this Google search, and found all sorts of information, including youtube videos: water pump pressure tank air pressure relative to system pressure

If you have the old style of tank, I'd change it anyway.

[Paul F Franklin]

There are two main styles of well pressure tanks: The older style is just a plain tank that relies on a bubble of compressed air above the water to provide the water pressure to the house. Newer tanks have a rubber bladder that separates the water and the air. The problem with the old style is that the air in the tank gradually dissolves into the water until the tank doesn't have enough air in it to operate properly. That is the situation your inspector describes. The solution is, as he said, to drain the tank (all the way), allowing it to fill with air. Then when the pump is turned back on, the water will partially fill the tank, compressing the air above it.

The bladder type tank solves the problem of the air dissolving into the water because they are separated by a flexible rubber membrane. That style of tank is charged with air to a pressure a couple of PSI below the cut-in pressure of the pump.

I haven't seen a non-bladder tank in probably 40 years or more.

The other possibility is that it is a bladder tank (easily identified by the schrader valve on the tank) and the bladder has failed, causing it to act like a non-bladder tank. It can be used that way, as long as you periodically drain the tank to maintain the air above the water.

Pressure tanks are not a big dollar item and not much labor is involved in installing a new one.

[Travis Conner]

The tank is only about 3 years old.

[Bill Dufour]

Bladder has failed or it was never filled with air. Try filling it with compressed air to the water low pressure. This should work regardless of if the bladder is leaking or not. You can plumb in a air tank in the rafters to solve the problem just make sure it can be drained.
If you have compressed air at the pump it is quicker to add air then to drain water and refill with air. Good idea to blow bugs and spiders off with the air as long as it is there.
Bill D

[Lee Schierer]

Paul is correct. The older tanks had a device that worked with jet pumps to control the air level in the tank. They looked like a pressure regulator on the side of the tank.

Newer tanks use a bladder inside that has air in it. This allowed the pump to reach and hold the pressure that the pressure switch was set to. If the air is gone the pressure doesn't stay above the low set point of the pressure switch would turn on, so the pump keeps starting and stopping because water doesn't compress.

You can add air to the tank through the Schrader valve on top and your system will work properly for a while. Long term you would be better off replacing the tank. You could make the seller either fix it or deduct the replacement cost (including the plumber) from the selling price.

[Travis Conner]

Does air need to be added to the bladder occassionally?

[Mike Soaper]

If you decide to replace the tank consider getting a larger one so that the pump does not have to cycle as frequently.

[Jim Barkelew]

Paul has the right answer, I think. Replace the tank since they don't cost very much (a few hundred) and are easy to install. Since you don't own the house yet make it a condition for the sale. A bad tank can cause the pump to fail quicker and that's $$$$$. I had a failed tank bladder and tried to save some money by replacing the bladder. Mistake. Its not easy to replace the bladder. The old tank can be a smoker or wood stove for the shop with a little cutting and welding.

Jim

[Ron Selzer]

Does air need to be added to the bladder occassionally?

NO, as long as it is working ok. Pressure typically is set 2-4 lbs below turn on pressure setpoint.

[Jim Koepke]

Many years ago a neighbor had this problem. We fixed it with a bicycle pump.

jtk

[Travis Conner]

Can you the bladder pressure with a tire gauge?

[Travis Conner]

The inspector made it sound like whoever installed the new motor and tank just didn't finish the job of adding the air pocket in the tank.

[Jim Koepke]

Can you the bladder pressure with a tire gauge?

That is what we did. Just in case it was needed again it was written on the wall over my washing machine. We moved out of that house a dozen years ago.

jtk

[Steve Eure]

i had a similar problem several years ago and it turned out to be the snifter valve on the check valve. Don't know if this could be your problem, but its a cheap fix if it is. I would check to see if it has any damage or maybe dirt or other debris in it. Dirt dobbers are notorious for filling them with dirt.

[Jim Matthews]

Many years ago a neighbor had this problem. We fixed it with a bicycle pump.

jtk

How much water can a bicycle pump hold?

[Lisa Starr]

If this is a house your considering purchasing, ask the buyer to make the repairs/replacement or decrease the agreed upon price for you to take care of correcting the problem after taking possession. That's the point in home inspections in the purchase process.

[Larry Frank]

It is a waterlogged tank and the procedure to fix it can be found with Google. It is pretty easy to do. If you have a well, it is worthwhile to learn to service it. The two typical repairs are the waterlogged tank and pressure switch. I always have a spare pressure switch.

I have also replaced the pressure tank. It is not difficult. Of course you can pay a plumber to do these things but not cheap.

[Lee Schierer]

The inspector made it sound like whoever installed the new motor and tank just didn't finish the job of adding the air pocket in the tank.

The tanks come with the bladder inflated to some degree. Adding air through the top will work. If the tank is only 3 years old it is likely still under warranty for the current owner and can be replaced for free. I have one like this that has lasted over 20 years.
439778

Well X Trol tanks have a 7 year warranty.

[Tom M King]

https://www.freshwatersystems.com/blogs/blog/how-to-check-your-well-tanks-pressure

[Jim Becker]

I agree that the issue should be on "the list" of things necessary to be fixed by the current owner or part of the financial negotiation dance if they are left to you. This could be as simple as properly configuring the tank, especially if it's only three years old. Having the air in there to balance the pressure and smooth out operation is important for the water supply. That's why the inspector called it out.

[Bill Dufour]

To pass inspection they could of pumped in air and that would last a few weeks while it got inspected. It is possible they put in to much air pressure and ruptured the bladder. This tells me the owners did not know it was short cycling and did not know that is something they should have paid attention to. That tells me they probably did not do any maintinence anywhere else either, unless something failed. No clean and lube of heating/cooling system etc.
Bill D

[Jim Koepke]

How much water can a bicycle pump hold?

We pumped air into the bladder. Can't remember what the neighbor told me about how it got low. He had called someone who told us what to do.

In the case of the OP buying a place, this is something you either have the current owner fix or have a reduction in price to cover any possible costs for repair.

It is like having the septic pumped and a roof that doesn't leak, unless one is in the business of buying, fixing and flipping.

jtk

[Alex Zeller]

A simple test is to take something like a screwdriver and push the center of the air valve on top of the tank down (like you would to let air out of a bicycle tire). If water comes out the bladder has a hole in it and is bad. If only air comes out then what you'll need to do is find what pressure the pump turns on at. Then shut the whole system off, drain all the water out of the tank, and then using a bicycle pump or air compressor fill the tank up to 2 psi less than the pressure at which the pump turns on. Even a new tank, if it's a cheap one, can fail. This really is a case of if you spend more you get a better product.

[Mike Cutler]

Does air need to be added to the bladder occassionally?

Yes, It does. There is no shortage of you tube videos on how to do it, if you need to.
Depending on the type of tank involved, most assuredly the pressure in the bladder must be checked periodically.
I have a Well-Trol, 35 gallon tank. On top of the tank is a schrader valve just like you would find on a bicycle. If you bleed some pressure through the schrader valve and water comes out the tank is shot. if just air comes out, the tank may need to be charged.
To charge the tank, shut off the well pump, bleed the water out of the tank, and when it is empty, inflate the bladder to 2 psi below the desired cut in pressure, or when the pump should turn on. Close the system up and restore power to the well pump.
I have been on a well pump for over thirty years. I try to once a year I check the pressure in the bladder and flush out the water heater at the same time. Sometimes I forget for a year or two, like this last year, and my pump tank bladder pressure was only 18psi when empty instead of 30-32 psi.

[Lee Schierer]

Does air need to be added to the bladder occassionally?

No, if the bladder was set up properly to start with and there are no holes you don't need to add any air. I have had my bladder type tank for over 30 years and have never added any air to the bladder. My system used to supply both my house and the geothermal heat system so it has seen far more cycles than the average tank and it is still functioning normally. During the heating season it would cycle at least 6-8 times an hour 24/7.

Note: When you drain all the water out of a Well X Trol tank the bladder goes all the way down to the bottom of the tank. It would be nearly impossible to burst the bladder without distorting the tank. Too much air would make it hard for the pump to reach the high pressure setting on the control switch so it would run longer.

[Bruce Wrenn]

NO, as long as it is working ok. Pressure typically is set 2-4 lbs below turn on pressure setpoint.


I beg to differ. Before replacing tank, check the Schrader valve. Sometimes they leak, allowing the air charge to also leak out. Easiest way to test one is the spit test. Depressurize the system, remove cap from Scharder valve, and charge system to about 30 PSI. Then using your finger, place a drop of spit onto valve. If it bubbles up, then the Schrader valve is leaking. Don't worry about spit getting into water, as valve only connects to top side of bladder. The cap on the Schrader valve has an "O" ring inside, so make sure it's screwed all the way down. Shcrader valve is the same as in car tires, FYI.

[Brian Elfert]

I have well and septic. I found in doing research that a submerged well pump should generally run for one minute or longer when the pump is turned on. I bought my house AS-IS and the pressure tank was all rusty. I went from a 20 gallon to a 44 gallon tank. I have timed it and the pump runs for over a minute.

[Scott T Smith]

A simple test is to take something like a screwdriver and push the center of the air valve on top of the tank down (like you would to let air out of a bicycle tire). If water comes out the bladder has a hole in it and is bad. If only air comes out then what you'll need to do is find what pressure the pump turns on at. Then shut the whole system off, drain all the water out of the tank, and then using a bicycle pump or air compressor fill the tank up to 2 psi less than the pressure at which the pump turns on. Even a new tank, if it's a cheap one, can fail. This really is a case of if you spend more you get a better product.

What Alex said.

It is simple to see if the bladder has failed by either removing the schrader valve or by opening it. Be sure that the well pump is turned on. If water comes out, the tank needs to be replaced.

Tanks usually are pre-charged with the correct amount of air, and have a chart in the instruction sheet that lists the recommended pressures for various installations.

[Travis Conner]

Okay I had a well company come out finally..... I have the old style with the air volume control valve. They showed me how to drain it out and just said it needs to be done periodically when it starts to short cycle. He changed the filter too and put a 50 micron filter on. I don't think that's fine enough. Looks like they make 25 micron filters and 5 micron filter that will fit my filter head. Can I use the 5 micron or will that just cloth in an instant? The guy who came out wasn't very detail oriented in that kind of thing. I do have an on demand water heater I don't want clogging up with sediment.

[Travis Conner]

I actually don't think it is a 50 micron cause I couldn't find any online.

[Lee Schierer]

Okay I had a well company come out finally..... I have the old style with the air volume control valve. They showed me how to drain it out and just said it needs to be done periodically when it starts to short cycle.

I don't think your well guy knows what he is talking about. I've had a well with a air control that was working for many years and it never required the tank to be drained to restore the air. That is the whole purpose of that device. It adds air each time the pump cycles and if there is too much air it lets some out.

[Jerome Stanek]

I don't think your well guy knows what he is talking about. I've had a well with a air control that was working for many years and it never required the tank to be drained to restore the air. That is the whole purpose of that device. It adds air each time the pump cycles and if there is too much air it lets some out.

My FIL had one like that and it needed some air about once a year.

[Jerry Bruette]

Okay I do have an on demand water heater I don't want clogging up with sediment.

I would have the hardness of the water checked, hard water will leave deposits that will plug up your water heater. A filter won't take out the dissolved solids but a water softener will.

[Myk Rian]

Does air need to be added to the bladder occassionally?
Not very often.
The way I do it is to drain the tank.
Pump it up to 27 psi.
Turn the pump on.
Done.

[Myk Rian]

I actually don't think it is a 50 micron cause I couldn't find any online.
We had an iron filter installed and took the cartridge filter out of the line. No more sludge clogging things up.

[Travis Conner]

He didn't say once a year, my bad. He just said when it starts short cycling, drain the tank and refill it.

[Larry Frank]

My well water has iron, sulfur, high hardness and not good. We had a n air induction filter out in. It uses air to oxidize the iron and sulfur and then filters them out. It needs no chemicals and very little maintenance. It provides very good water with no iron.