Baltic Birch vs Pre-finished maple ply for kitchen cabinets

[Scott Bernstein]

I am setting out to build a set of cabinets for our kitchen. I plan to do a frameless/Euro-style design with shaker-style doors and drawer fronts. They will be painted. I am leaning towards 3/4" Baltic Birch Plywood for the cases, but also thinking about pre-finished maple plywood. I don't think Baltic Birch, or Apple Ply, are available pre-finished. So if I used BB I would probably use a spray-on lacquer to finish the insides and outsides. The visible sides, edges, and doors/drawer fronts would all be painted white. Structurally and quality-wise I think BB is a better product than "cabinet grade" plywood, but obviously might save me a little time if it comes pre-finished. I will use either BB or solid wood for the drawer boxes.

Second question...solid edge banding or pre-glued edge banding?

Third question...I normally sketch out my furniture projects the old fashioned way - paper & pencil. Should I stick to that or is it worth it to learn SketchUp or some other such software? I suspect that would take an awfully long time...

Scott

[David Stone (CT)]

I built cabinets for my kitchen last year. I used prefinished maple ply for the carcases and would highly recommend that. The factory prefinish saves a lot of time and is more consistent and durable than what I could have achieved spraying myself. The inner cores had few voids and the material was considerably flatter than the Baltic birch I used for the drawers. I used shop-made solid edge banding which I made around 3 mm thick. Milling up the stock, gluing and trimming solid edge banding within the context of a hobby woodworking shop turned out to be lot more work than I'd forecast (especially trimming when the panels are even the slightest bit not flat), and much more than pre-glued edge banding--but I like the idea that it's bombproof. Regardless of which edge banding you use, if it's going on prefinished maple, you'll need to do something to match the amber-ish color. I used shellac, 6 parts clear to 1 part amber, applied with a foam brush, topped by a clear waterborne finish. This was tedious but manageable in the context of one small kitchen and produced a very good match. If I were to do it again, I'd consider tinting the top coat and masking off the prefinished panels, so I could spray the edge banding.

[Jim Becker]

Pre-finished so you don't have to deal with the interior of the boxes. Outsides of the boxes can be dressed as necessary from there.

[Kevin Jenness]

I use prefinished ply, either Garniga or Columbia panels, with 1/4" solid banding. I hate veneer tape for surfaces that will receive wear. If you go with Baltic Birch, Apple Ply or similar you can skip the edgeband.

I wipe a few coats of hard oil on the banding. As long as it is not exposed you don't have to match the color exactly. If you want to spray the banding on prefinished material. you can stack the panels up like stair steps to avoid masking tape.

For one project learning CAD will save you no time, but will pay off down the road, as long as you use it often enough to be efficient.

[David Zaret]

as these guys said, use prefinished material. the past few kitchens i've switched from columbia to garnica, and though i like the look of the columbia a bit more, the garnica is lighter, and much more consistent in thickness. for the edging, i agree that the regular iron-on stuff is thin and annoying - i use 1.5mm banding, no backing or glue. it's solid wood, and very high quality and tough. if you don't have an edge bander, then using solid material is probably your best bet, cut it wide and use a router setup to trim the edge with a bearing cutter. hard oil is a great way to seal the edges, i like to use that, or arm-r-seal wiped on with a staining pad. using a cutlist optimizer will save you time and money on such a large job.

[roger wiegand]

Love prefinished ply for cabinet projects. The time saving is huge (no sanding, yay!) and the quality of the stuff I get is top notch. I use solid edging, I've never found pre-glued edging that stayed stuck. It also gives you more options for detailing the edge. I have applied veneer banding with hot hide glue; that has been stuck for over 40 years now, so I think it's going to hold. Titebond would probably also work, but then you have to clamp.

If your brain is compatible with Sketchup go for it. I spent weeks, full time' trying to learn the program and draw a small table. It still wasn't right after all that time, a multi-day course at the North Bennet Street School, and several long one-on-one tutorials from the expert in drawing wood projects in Sketchup. After all that time and effort I didn't find the 3d drawing to be very useful; it was extremely difficult to use as a construction drawing and the flaws in my initial drawing prevented smooth export of a set of 2d pictures to work from. I have no trouble at all visualizing a 3D object from 2D projections but I know other people can't do that and for them 3D drawing seems to have great value. I'm still using pencil and straightedge; I'd love to find a simple 2D drawing program to make my sketches neater. I think the time saving only begins to happen when you start to be able to re-use components. Most of the time my projects are one-off, so I don't get that benefit.

[Mark Bolton]

Im in the pre-fin columbia pure-bond camp. BB is a foolish material to consider for kitchen cabs. Light your cigars with dollar bills. For the banding, if you dont have access to a serious bander it would be solid wood. Look around and see if you can find a shop to band your parts through their bander. Solid wood banding is also a fools errand but if you have no other option is all you have. If someone will band your parts you wont be able to remove the banding with vise grips.

Spraying box interiors should be left only to jobs where the customer demands a matching interior. You will never spray a clear that will be as tough as a prefinished UV clear. Your main concern is access to a product that is flat and not a potato chip.

[Richard Coers]

Definitely prefinished with 1/8" solid edge banding. I glue on the edge banding and then "clamp" it down with slightly stretched 3M packing tape. Why the quest for stronger material for plain ole kitchen cabinet boxes? I've seen 5/8" particleboard boxes that lasted for decades.

[Kevin Jenness]

To me the advantage of products like BB, Apple Ply or Columbia's Euro Ply in cabinetmaking is the decorative edge with minimal voids. The strength of the panels is not usually that critical. For kitchens the labor savings of prefinished material is key.

[Tom Bain]

Another vote for prefinished ply. The only minor downside about prefinished ply is needing to be more careful during the construction process to keep from scratching the finish. Since this will be cabinet interiors that’s probably even less of a concern.

[Bruce Wrenn]

For boxes, I use 3/4 ply, which I finish while in the flat. Either spray, or pad on Varathane's Diamond Floor Finish (gloss.) For padding, I use one of those edge painting pads. First coat, sand off nibs, then second and third coat, all in the same day.

[Ben Rivel]

So what do you do if you want dark wood cabinets? Can you darken the pre-finished panels or do you just have to work with the shades you can find? Ive never done kitchen cabinets before.

[Mark Bolton]

So what do you do if you want dark wood cabinets? Can you darken the pre-finished panels or do you just have to work with the shades you can find? Ive never done kitchen cabinets before.

If you want dark interiors all bets are off. Your out of the standard box world

[Ben Rivel]

If you want dark interiors all bets are off. Your out of the standard box world
Sorry, I meant exteriors. Maybe Im confused now, it sounded like people were talking about using prefinished ply for the exteriors.

[andy bessette]

Pre-finished for cheap garage cabinets only.

[roger wiegand]

Sorry, I meant exteriors. Maybe Im confused now, it sounded like people were talking about using prefinished ply for the exteriors.

Most times kitchen cabinet exteriors aren't exposed. I make end panels for the exposed ends, they can be whatever you want.

[David Zaret]

for the kitchens i make, every exposed surface is covered with a panel. either a flat panel or a door-style panel, depending on the kitchen. sometimes i buy A-grade veneer hardwood plywood (unfinished) for the flat panels, sometimes i veneer my own. most of the cabinets i make are face frame, and i overhang the frames such that i can tuck end panels in behind the frame.

i don't expose the prefinished maple to any outside surface, except the underside of the uppers. only the dog cares about that.

--- dz

[Jim Becker]

Sorry, I meant exteriors. Maybe Im confused now, it sounded like people were talking about using prefinished ply for the exteriors.
The prefinished is only for the interior. You still do the exteriors "normally"...end panels, applied caps or face frames, etc.

[Ben Rivel]

Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks guys.

[Brad Shipton]

These questions are a very individual in nature and depend upon your budget, time availability, and equipment. Other than us woodworkers, very few care about the boxes. Kitchens are about drawers and doors. Even drawers are overlooked by many. Unless you plan to take your kitchen boxes out dancing even melamine can be perfectly strong enough for a kitchen.

If you have a full fledged setup and can spray boxes, then unfinished is fine if you have the time. If you have not worked with pre-finished a lot, you do need to be a bit more careful to avoid chips or damage that can happen on a large project where you have days where you are tired. Baltic Birch is nice to work with since the sheets are smaller, but the cost will go up a lot and your part yield per sheet is quite terrible. The most common use for BB is drawers.

The box building is virtually inconsequential to me in a complete kitchen project. Your average kitchen has somewhere between 35-50 4'x8' sheets and for the most part you have a lot of very common parts that you can crank out easily. The headache is all the hardware drilling or shelf holes. The real work is in the drawers and doors if you are building those too.

For edge banding I think the wood is nice, but again, that is a time killer compared to banding with a machine as suggested.

The software question comes down to your experience level in kitchen building and the type of project. If your project is pretty much a re-build of an existing kitchen, then you can copy a lot of the old dimensions. If you are changing the location of a lot of fixtures and changing the layout entirely, a complete plan will be quite helpful. The ones I have built start with a complete model so I know all part dimensions, boring locations, and can get a good idea of how the finished kitchen will look. I find it very helpful to avoid making too many changes when doing the work. A pro will find that pointless, but most of those guys have been doing it for eons. The learning curve can be steep, so this too will be a time consideration.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

You have plenty of input on the ply, so this is about the drafting.

I personally completely skip drawing actual cabinet plans because its all repetition. Instead I just do a spreadsheet that calculates the sizes based on unit width and height on uppers. Sides are all the same on the lowers and only different if height varies on upper. Input 30" base for example and my sheet instantly generates a cutlist. I use Excel and Cutlist Pro. Using that you can cut an entire kitchen very quickly. Make sure you mark parts ID though, it's a pain to sort through the monster stack of parts looking for a specific thing. You have to rough sketch on paper or in your head at least one to make the formulas, but it's all simple math and much quicker than messing with CAD for cabinets. Same process for doors and drawers.

I do use Chief Architect for kitchen layout and modeling, but it's only for customers visualization. You can do the same by just making marks on your walls for widths of units. Use standard sizes and you'll have an easier time.

[Scott Bernstein]

Thanks for the great advice guys! Our kitchen is quite small so we're only talking about about 8-10 base cabinets and 10 wall cabinets. I don't mind finishing those by hand and if it takes a couple days longer it doesn't matter much. Also, the edges of the BB may be attractive enough to skip the edge banding and that might offset some of the time spend on finishing. However, I just decided that as long as I am doing some kitchen cabinets I might as well build a few more for the basement. So I think I'll do BB for the kitchen and the pre-finished for the basement. Then I will have some experience with both methods.

Scott

[Dave Sabo]

Thanks for the great advice guys! Our kitchen is quite small so we're only talking about about 8-10 base cabinets and 10 wall cabinets. I don't mind finishing those by hand and if it takes a couple days longer it doesn't matter much. Also, the edges of the BB may be attractive enough to skip the edge banding and that might offset some of the time spend on finishing. However, I just decided that as long as I am doing some kitchen cabinets I might as well build a few more for the basement. So I think I'll do BB for the kitchen and the pre-finished for the basement. Then I will have some experience with both methods.

Scott

How about just ordering your boxes from a place that specializes in them ? They come flat pack, you assemble them, and concentrate on making the doors and drawer fronts.

You can also order the drawer boxes the same way.

[Scott Bernstein]

No, thanks. I actually want to build every aspect of the project. The amount of time potentially saved by ordering pre-made boxes is not important...

[Jim Becker]

No, thanks. I actually want to build every aspect of the project. The amount of time potentially saved by ordering pre-made boxes is not important...
I do that for one-off projects, but for my kitchen in 2003 and the vanities and wet bar for our addition in 2008...both big jobs...I bought the drawer boxes (knocked down to save on shipping). The volume of boxes was not something I was interested in tackling for both consistency and time. Where I did spend my time was on careful grain and color matching for face frames, drawer fronts and the (few) doors required.

[David Stone (CT)]

No, thanks. I actually want to build every aspect of the project. The amount of time potentially saved by ordering pre-made boxes is not important...

Good to have choices, but I felt the same way as you about building all elements when I did my kitchen.

[Ole Anderson]

I wanted the interiors to match the hickory doors, so I went with hickory ply for the cases, finished with 5 coats of wipe on (50/50) satin P&L #38 varnish. After 7 years, the finish still looks new even on the shelf bottoms, subject to lots of wear. I hot melt edge banded all of the ply cases, including refacing the mullions on the old lower cabs. So far no loose edges. I did solid banding on the shelves though. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211863-Kitchen-is-finally-done

[Ole Anderson]

Pre-finished for cheap garage cabinets only. Gosh, that was a bit of a put-down...

[Frank Pratt]

Gosh, that was a bit of a put-down...

I've just learned to ignore most of what he has to say.

[andy bessette]

Gosh, that was a bit of a put-down...


I've just learned to ignore most of what he has to say.

Many people cannot deal with opinions which are different than their own. Some even see it as a personal affront.

My clients would never hire me again if I used pre-finished material.

[johnny means]

I know it's sacrilegious around here, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway. The best material for cabinet carcasses is melamine coated particle board. It can be bought in hundreds of colors and "species" to match any exterior. There is no more durable or sanitary finish. Some of the new High definition products are virtually indistinguishable from real wood. Further more, all sink bases should be made from PVC sheet goods.

[scott vroom]

Pre-finished for cheap garage cabinets only.

Seems a bit harsh. Pre-finished C2 maple is my go to for kitchen wall cab interiors and base cabs with shelving where interior is visible, with applied panels on exposed end of run cabs.

Use good quality ply, particularly if you're applying WB finishes. I've had bubbles appear in the top skin when spraying WB....no doubt from voids.

[mike stenson]

Many people cannot deal with opinions which are different than their own. Some even see it as a personal affront.

My clients would never hire me again if I used pre-finished material.

Nah, mostly it's the delivery.

[Jim Becker]

My clients would never hire me again if I used pre-finished material.

They wouldn't accept pre-finished for cabinet interiors where the sun doesn't normally shine?

[Dan Hahr]

My clients would never hire me again if I used pre-finished material.

Care to elaborate? Why is that? Do they want the interiors to match the outside or what?
Dan

[tim walker]

I use prefinished ply, either Garniga or Columbia panels, with 1/4" solid banding. I hate veneer tape for surfaces that will receive wear. If you go with Baltic Birch, Apple Ply or similar you can skip the edgeband.

I wipe a few coats of hard oil on the banding. As long as it is not exposed you don't have to match the color exactly. If you want to spray the banding on prefinished material. you can stack the panels up like stair steps to avoid masking tape.

For one project learning CAD will save you no time, but will pay off down the road, as long as you use it often enough to be efficient.

Kevin, where can one find the Garinca Ply? I have seen the Columbia at HD

[andy bessette]

They wouldn't accept pre-finished for cabinet interiors where the sun doesn't normally shine?


Care to elaborate? Why is that? Do they want the interiors to match the outside or what?
Dan

Pre-finished look is what one might expect from IKEA. My clients pay extra for custom made and have higher expectations. Interior usually matches exterior, but there are exceptions, like laminate, etc.

[Kevin Jenness]

"where can one find the Garinca Ply?"

I get Garnica panels from Atlantic Plywood, but I doubt that will do you much good In Texas.

[Jim Becker]

Kevin, where can one find the Garinca Ply? I have seen the Columbia at HD

From a real plywood supplier. In my area, I buy from Industrial Plywood out of Reading PA. They stock Garnica. My cabinetmaker neighbor "swears by it" at this point. I haven't tried it myself as there have been no projects come up where I needed plywood recently.

[David Zaret]

i use DSI as a supplier. the Garnica is nice. personally i like the columbia more, but, they have issues with core thickness consistency, and running plywood on the CNC the consistency is very important. the garnica is very consistent. this is nice material, with a nice finish - i cannot imagine why anyone would complain about it, even in high-end casework. i've used it in $60k+ kitchens, with great success.

-- dz

[Tyler Bancroft]

Purebond is nice stuff. The quality of the veneer does seem to vary a fair bit from sheet to sheet.