Do I need a shoulder plane?

[Aaron Rosenthal]

Because I have a particular project on the go, the use of a skew rabbit plane was the unit of choice for part of the joinery.
Today I got one, a right handed one and I’ll be setting it up on Sunday.
I have, however, both a medium and large shoulder plane, and a large jointer plane.
Every time I use the shoulder plane on tenons, I regret it and need to fix the tenon wasting a lot of time.
As I looked at the skew plane, I started wondering if, in fact, I needed the shoulder planes.
I’d enjoy hearing more learnedly opinions.

[ken hatch]

Aaron,

Short answer, Nope. Longer it can be handy but so can a rabbit plane or a chisel or a Stanley 10 1/2 or a 140 block as well as a router plane and the list goes on.

Do I use my shoulder plane? Sometimes but not often, in other words there are a lots of ways to do the same job.

ken

[Andrew Seemann]

I've gone 30 years without one and don't think I have suffered any hardship. I have a Millers Falls skew rabbet that I use very occasionally, although when I use it, I do appreciate it. Not on tenons though. If I need to adjust a tenon, I invariably use a chisel.

[Derek Cohen]

Because I have a particular project on the go, the use of a skew rabbit plane was the unit of choice for part of the joinery.
Today I got one, a right handed one and I’ll be setting it up on Sunday.
I have, however, both a medium and large shoulder plane, and a large jointer plane.
Every time I use the shoulder plane on tenons, I regret it and need to fix the tenon wasting a lot of time.
As I looked at the skew plane, I started wondering if, in fact, I needed the shoulder planes.
I’d enjoy hearing more learnedly opinions.

Hi Aaron

This came up in a very recent thread. Look for it.

In short, I use a shoulder plane 90% of the time on rebates and 10% on tuning shoulders - they need to have very minor issues for this. Otherwise I use a chisel to level/square shoulders, and a rasp/router plane on tenon cheeks.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Carey]

.............
As I looked at the skew plane, I started wondering if, in fact, I needed the shoulder planes.
I’d enjoy hearing more learnedly opinions.

More learnedly - not so sure, but here's my 2 cents. When I'm doing a project with a lot of m&t, I use a tenon jig and can dial it in so that the tenons fit off the saw 90% of the time. On smaller projects I'll use my new Ron Bontz tenon saw - a thing of beauty to look at and to use - and I'll cut to the line. If the tenon needs to be shaped because my cut was off, then a chisel is the choice. But if the tenon just needs a skosh taken off so that it can be press fit rather driven in with a BFH, then my choice is the left hand skew block plane. The sole registers nicely on the tenon and the knicker keeps the corner of the shoulder and tenon clean. This is much easier for me than a rasp or a chisel. Or both. And, for me, it's more fun.

439514

[Prashun Patel]

Only you can decide what works for you. I have a large shoulder plane that is the right tool in my hands for some jobs. It has more mass than my chisels or router plane. I like it for hogging out waste inside a dado or even on tenon work.

Now, it’d be bad if a shoulder or even router plane prevents you from developing saw and chisel skills (in that order). But even as I am getting better at these, I still find those planes valuable.

My strategy on tool relinquishing is to sell it if I don’t touch it for 2 years. I take the advice of others on acquisition, but selling is personal because by then I know more than they about how good my marriage is.

[ken hatch]

Only you can decide what works for you. I have a large shoulder plane that is the right tool in my hands for some jobs. It has more mass than my chisels or router plane. I like it for hogging out waste inside a dado or even on tenon work.

Now, it’d be bad if a shoulder or even router plane prevents you from developing saw and chisel skills (in that order). But even as I am getting better at these, I still find those planes valuable.

My strategy on tool relinquishing is to sell it if I don’t touch it for 2 years. I take the advice of others on acquisition, but selling is personal because by then I know more than they about how good my marriage is.

Prashun,

I'd have a lot fewer tools if I stuck to that strategy :D, and even better I wouldn't waste all that time looking for the tool I know is hidden somewhere before re-buying it.

BTW, we are talking about moving. If we do there will be one big moving sale of tools that haven't been touched in two years (maybe).

Good on you,

ken

[Jim Koepke]

My shoulder plane gets used more for tuning rabbets and molding than on tenons.

For tenon tuning on shoulders and cheeks a chisel works better for me.

jtk

[glenn bradley]

I am curious how the shoulder plane is fouling your tenons. Are you using it for the shoulders or the cheeks? I use one on both but it is generally the 1-1/4" wide one if it wanders to cheek tuning. Depending on the size of the tenon a broad chisel can work better for cheeks.

[David Eisenhauer]

I think that a shoulder plane is not nearly used as much as new hand tool woodworkers envision the tool being used. I wonder if shoulder planes were originally used for larger (architect, building?) than typical furniture sized work. IMO, there are better tools available to trim fat tenon cheeks and a rebate plane works better for rebates than a shoulder plane does. My medium sized shoulder plane sits for long periods of time unused.

[Tony Wilkins]

I think that a shoulder plane is not nearly used as much as new hand tool woodworkers envision the tool being used. I wonder if shoulder planes were originally used for larger (architect, building?) than typical furniture sized work. IMO, there are better tools available to trim fat tenon cheeks and a rebate plane works better for rebates than a shoulder plane does. My medium sized shoulder plane sits for long periods of time unused.
The only reason I got one was it was on the list in The Anarchist’s tool chest when I got started. I’ve never used it. I think new woodworkers, at least some, think of it as a modern rabbet plane.

Am I thinking correctly that it’s designed for/original intention was to straightedges and tune the shoulders of tenons? If so, it was never really designed for cheeks and the other purposes that it gets pressed into.

[Josko Catipovic]

I have all three widths and use them all the time. I would guess their use increases as one ramps up the accuracy of their work.

[steven c newman]

Actually quicker and has more control to just use the chisel...too much set-up, and fiddling around to get out the plane, set things up to make a couple swipes....chisel is laying right there, easy to grab and use...Usually helps the accuracy of the work IF you can saw a bit better in the first place....less trimming and fitting that way.

[Jim Koepke]

a rebate plane works better for rebates than a shoulder plane does.

Yes, after a rebate plane does its part a shoulder plane works well for a light cut to smooth the shoulder of a rebate.

It also works well to help fit lipped molding on a cabinet.

They can be useful though they are not an absolute necessity.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have four, though two are Preston collectors ("Founder's grade"????). The other two are a large LN and a medium LV and both are used equally. They are not a necessity, but I would miss my two users if they would disappear!

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I have 2 - a large and small LN. Lovely tools. Don’t use them on every project but often enough to be glad I have them.

[Derek Cohen]

The one that gets the most use from me - used on every build - is the Veritas Small (1/2”), followed by the Veritas Medium (3/4”). I really love the lightness and ergonomics of the Small. It is wide enough for just about all rebates and shoulders. The Medium has more heft, which is helpful in particularly hard woods.

I do have the Large (1 1/4”) as well, but it rarely is needed.

The LN rebate block plane is often considered by some for rebates or cheeks, but it not a good choice as too wide for the former, and I do not like planes for cheeks, in the case of the latter. I use it to square/fine tune the inside corners of drawer cases, and here it excels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Aaron Rosenthal]

I am curious how the shoulder plane is fouling your tenons. Are you using it for the shoulders or the cheeks? I use one on both but it is generally the 1-1/4" wide one if it wanders to cheek tuning. Depending on the size of the tenon a broad chisel can work better for cheeks.
Ah, Glen, I’m hoisted by the petard of my own unthinking item, the tenon.
I SHOULD have said “for example, tenons.....”.
I’m doing doors to 2 cabinets and my M&T tenons were the things that spawn nightmares, mainly because I needed to correct my hand sawing. I’m redesigning the project doors, but that’s not to issue here.
I read carefully what Derek posted and did a search about the skewed rabbet plane, and the shoulder planes.
I concluded that, going back and reading the posts, all the planes are useful in their way, and what I don’t use in a year, I’ll reassess.

[Jim Matthews]

On smaller projects I'll use my new Ron Bontz tenon saw - a thing of beauty to look at and to use - and I'll cut to the line. If the tenon needs to be shaped because my cut was off, then a chisel is the choice.

439514

Stealth gloat.

[Jim Matthews]

While the mortice and tenon may be the strongest joint for applications like doors, windows and bedframes it is needlessly complicated for most home use furniture.

It rose to prominence mainly in conjunction with drawbored pegs, for mechanical advantage.

After three years struggling with the same process I now cut either half laps or bridle joints instead of M&T, where possible.

If the end grain of the joint is objectionable, edge banding with the same material (chamfered or 1/4 round to the glue line) absolved many sins.

There are *four* surfaces in mortice and tenon joints that must be aligned to the same plane with the all the other mortice and tenon joints in the assembly.

Half laps are dead simple to get uniform and planar if your bench is flat.

http://imgur.com/gallery/p5VoVvN

[Phil Mueller]

I have the LV medium and use it for a number of things...rarely for tenon shoulders. As some have mentioned, other ways to do something are closer at hand. Well, a while back I decided to sharpen, set and leave my shoulder plane in arms reach. I found I use it a lot. Sometimes when I would normally grab a block plane, chisel, or file/rasp. I guess I found when it’s readily available, it gets used.

[Don Dorn]

I have a LV small and a LN Large. A waste of money for me as I haven't used either for years.

[lowell holmes]

Of course you need a shoulder plane, the difference between a man and a boy is the price of his toys.

I have one.

[Jack Frederick]

I have the large LN and have found it falling to hand quite regularly. Could I use another plane, yes, but the mass of the LN has come in handy. Certainly depends upon the job.

[Charles Guest]

I bought my shoulder plane years ago, the same day I threw out all my hair shirts.

I love it. Wouldn't be without it.

[Jerry Olexa]

Good answer..I agree


Aaron,

Short answer, Nope. Longer it can be handy but so can a rabbit plane or a chisel or a Stanley 10 1/2 or a 140 block as well as a router plane and the list goes on.

Do I use my shoulder plane? Sometimes but not often, in other words there are a lots of ways to do the same job.

ken

[Mike Allen1010]

Are use my shoulder plane all the time particularly for trimming the long shoulder on table tops that will have a breadboard end. For me, I use the fenced rabbit to rough out the bulk of material shy of the shoulder lay outline and then the shoulder plane to trim exactly to the knife edge for a nice straight, consistent shoulder. I also prefer the shoulder plane (versus a chisel) for trimming the inside/non-show shoulder of tenons/bridal joints in doors, frame & panel construction etc.

Although not exactly the same, I also like a rabbit plane for cleaning up the shoulder For raised panels and cleaning up rabbits and moldings etc. Love the Lee Nielsen fenced, skew blade rabbit block plane and also the straight edged block plane for these purposes.

[Bill Yacey]

I use a shoulder plane for cleaning up dados.

[James Pallas]

It depends on the work you do. It’s been mentioned. Where the shoulder plane shines is end grain work. A lot more of that work was done in the past. Bread board ends, mitered bridle joints, window sash, longer M&T joints on full size doors. I have an LN medium to use in those cases where I need to work the full length of a shoulder. If it’s just a little hump that needs work than my 75 is just the ticket. My medium is a little large in most cases but it works great for trimming up the rabbet side of sash munitions. Shoulder planes don’t work well on long grain work, jamb up to quickly. Rabbet planes work better for that. It’s one of those if you need it, you need it things.

[Talbert McMullin]

I don't use my LV medium shoulder plane a lot, but when I need it, I really need it.

[Scott Clausen]

I have a large Stanley and I am in the final stages of my first frame and panel door. My shoulders are looking pretty good but I have a very slight error n a few of my knife walls because I was using a utility knife and it tends to cut at an angle. After working my way around the rails it was a smidge off and I knew it would show. It is still less than the width of a playing card but I am doing this to learn how to build fine furniture. I am now ready to attempt to lower the high side in an attempt to get a good (perfect) seat on all sides. I hope that I won't cause more problems than I solve. Step one is to use a backer board because I screwed that up on my last use. For the tenons after using a router plane they are pretty true so I leave my mortise slightly tight and as I start fitting I check the the board for plumb and use a chisel to pare the mortice walls to adjust as I slide in. This is possibly the most over built basement/crawl space door ever made.

[Prashun Patel]

I use my shoulder plane often. Not strictly for shoulders though. The shoulder plane has high, square sides and a flush blade. This makes it versatile in thicknessing close to a theoretical border or wall of any kind - not just a tenon.

e.g.:

On a tapered surface (like a guitar neck) where you know thickness measurements at several frets along the way, a shoulder plane can be used to thickness at those frets, cross grain, extremely locally. Then you can use a longer plane or shave to connect the points.

Thicknessing half lap joints and rabbets

Shooting long grain on small parts. Unlike most bench planes, you don't need a ramp to offset the piece off the bench. You can even clamp the shoulder plane to the bench and push the piece against.

None of this is necessary. Just convenient.

[steven c newman]

Seem to have an older version...made long before LV or LN were making tools...
462300
The No. 181, 1.25" Skewed Rebate plane.....
462301


Otherwise...just use a SHARP chisel.....save the excess cash to buy Lumber, instead.

[J. Greg Jones]

I have the large and small LV shoulder planes-use them both a lot. Be advised that a skewed rebate plane and a shoulder plane are not the same thing.

[steven c newman]

Unless one uses it like one....YMMV.

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, an axe can be used to cut a quill pen just like a pocket knife.

jtk

[steven c newman]

When it comes to fine tuning a tenon...I usually just use a sharp chisel.....more control, less set-ups, and...the chisel is usually already on the bench.

Unless one's intent is to SELL such a plane.....

Heck, Sellers uses a router plane to clean up tenons.....

[J. Greg Jones]

Heck, Sellers uses a router plane to clean up tenons.....
Yes, Sellers uses a router plane… on the tenon cheek. As do I. But the shoulder plane is useful for truing up the tenon shoulder, thus the name shoulder plane. And I’m not selling anything.

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, Sellers uses a router plane… on the tenon cheek. As do I. But the shoulder plane is useful for truing up the tenon shoulder, thus the name shoulder plane. And I’m not selling anything.

One thing to consider when ruminating over the purchase of one of these is their original purpose. A quote from Patrick Leach's Blood & Gore states:


They were advertised as being "designed for fine Cabinet Work where extreme accuracy is required."

How it became known as a 'shoulder plane' is a job for the entomologists.

jtk

[J. Greg Jones]

How it became known as a 'shoulder plane' is a job for the entomologists.


True indeed, but I think the word you were looking for is etymologist. An entomologist deals with the study of insects.

[steven c newman]

IF one always needs to "clean up" after a saw cut....then, by all means..get such a plane. No matter what name it goes by....

While I do use a #78 to cut rebates, I also use that #181 to clean into the back corner of the rebate, if needed.

My main tool to clean up after sawing tenons? A wide, SHARP chisel....powered by my chin (not flexible enough to use the shoulder..) And I can sight right down the chisel to control the cut...

YMMV....as to how many different ways to do this sort of job...

[J. Greg Jones]

Another use for a shoulder plane-today I made a picture frame for my son. I made the rebate for the glass and picture, then mitered the frame. As it turned out, the internal dimensions of the frame were a wee bit less than the OD of the picture glass before glue-up. So, three swipes of approximately.002” per swipe on each side with a medium shoulder plane gave me .024” additional clearance overall, problem solved.

[Jim Koepke]

True indeed, but I think the word you were looking for is etymologist. An entomologist deals with the study of insects.

Thanks Greg, just saw this after getting back yesterday. I always seem to get my -mologist confused, then my fingers mess up the translations.

jtk