hand cut dovetails

[Brian Knop]

I have been cutting dovetails by hand for a little bit now. I would have to say that I need more practice. I bought a nice hand saw, but I am using a four piece maple chisel set, there has to be something better out there. I could use a few suggestion on some better chisels and what type to get.(butt,frimer,skew,ete)

Thanks Brian

[Martin Shupe]

I have been cutting dovetails by hand for a little bit now. I would have to say that I need more practice. I bought a nice hand saw, but I am using a four piece maple chisel set, there has to be something better out there. I could use a few suggestion on some better chisels and what type to get.(butt,frimer,skew,ete)

Thanks Brian

If you can afford them, get a set of Lie-Nielson chisels. Money well spent, and you won't regret it.

[Bob Johnson2]

I've been eye balling the set of kirsh (sp?) firmers at LV, for the price they look awful nice. I bought a set for my son and will have to "borrow" them to try for some dovetail work.

[tod evans]

my favorites are a pre war set of buck socketed paring chisels, for new two cherries,barr and lie nelson........02 tod

[Alan Turner]

I'm with Todd here; love old hand iron. But, the new brands he menitons are excellent. LV sells the Hirsh, and they are from the same steel as the Two Cherries, but I understand the handles are not as refined.

[harry strasil]

all my dovetails are cut by hand and I don't own any modern chisels, my favorite dovetail chisels are old thin 3/8 and 1/2 inch ones that are sharpened with a lot of angle and then honed and stroped on the slick side of a piece of leather with fine jewelers rouge added. I also have a couple of these chisels sharpened right and left skew angle for finishing.

[Jim Becker]

Older chisels, as Alan suggested are very nice. I didn't go that route and didn't want to lay out the money for the L-N since I'm only an occasional Neander, so I went with a set of 6 Ashley Iles from Toolsforworkingwood.com. I have been very pleased with them. I chose the longer handled version as they felt better in my hand than the shorter handled version as well as the Two Cherries/Hirsch that I also tried out in Joel's NYC showroom.

[harry strasil]

I don't have a set of chisels of all one brand name. They are just whatever I could find at flea markets and antique shops that were reasonable in cost. I actually have two sets one set is in my demo toolboxes in the trailer and the other set is in a large box in my basement shop. Some are hand made by me if they were ones I could not buy used. I am still looking for a full set of the old laid on chisels that are wrought iron with blister steel forge welded on for a cutting edge, they are very hard to find but will almost go forever without being sharpened. I have a box of old chisels I keep around for custom grinding the ends for special jobs and all my chisels have custom made leather covers for the cutting ends made of old shoe leather and the gauntlest from old welding gloves. I also look thru plane blades at flea mkts and tool shows for the laid on tapered blades to make blades for special made planes I make also. As I am a third generation blacksmith it compliments my woodworking when I need to make a special tool or get a wild hair about building something different.

I do have a tendency to think outside the box a lot. LOL:D :o

I try to do everything the old way if possible without nails or screws. I do have some power tools, my table saw is home grown and my radial arm saw I think was brought here by Columbus. The one modern tool I do use a lot is a 12 inch delta portable thickness planer I have modified with head locks of my own design.

[harry strasil]

This is a picture of my tool box in the basement shop

[Bob Smalser]

All my chisels are pre-war, but I recently had the opportunity to sharpen and use a number of different new chisels.

The best by far, and the equals of my Witherbies and Swans were the Barr Specialty Tool chisels...but they are very spendy. I also liked the Ashley Iles. The others were unremarkable.

I can't recommend chisels made of A2 or D2 steel, simply because chisels are too easily sharpened to lose any amount of edge quality to edge longevity...and if you were to use A2 chisels and the forged Barr's side by side, you'd see what I mean.

For the patient, I recommend buying a set of Lee Valley house brand to use while you build sets of prewar, drop-forged chisels from an era that'll never be repeated. I'd steer clear of competing with the Stanley collectors, however, as those were decent chisels (but hardly the best) and are now way overpriced.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/123394641.jpg

Here's what our forebearers paid for when they passed the Stanleys by for their betters.

My Stanley bench chisel on the left is a bit thicker than the Witherby in the center and the Greenlee on the right. Today, the Witherby's have a collector following and can be spendy, but not near as much as the ridiculous prices of Stanley 750 butt chisels....while the Greenlees and the PS&W's in estate sale lots generally remain cheaper than buying raw tool steel and making your own.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/123548878.jpg

While you are visiting flea markets, antique shops and Ebay, don't overlook these old straight-sided firmer chisels that aren't made any more. Heavier, I find I use them more often than bevel-edge chisels in much of my work. These go cheap because few hobbyists or collectors want them.

L to R: Swan, Keen Kutter, Witherby, PS&W, PS&W, PS&W, Buck, Gillespie (a sleeper equal to Witherby) and Sargent.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/123548877.jpg

Same with firmer gouges to strike curved outlines. Little demand for these because few know what they are for, and with all the patternmakers this country used to have, there are a lot of them out there.

L to R: Buck, He-Mo-Jo, Buck, Stiletto (another sleeper) Buck, Buck, Greenlee, Barton, Buck, Buck, and PEXTO (PS&W).

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/123548876.jpg

And also mortise chisels, which you can expect to pay more for, as hobbyists and collectors are discovering them.

L to R: Douglas (precursor to James Swan), New Haven Edge Tool (another sleeper), NHET, NHET, NHET, Swan, Buck, and Witherby.

These millwright chisels are far more powerful mortise choppers than any other design, but are usually mistakenly called "framing chisels" by dealers.

[Geoff Irvine]

Brian,
I always had a problem cleaning out between the tails when I had very fine pins so I got an old tyzack cast steel 1/4" firmer chisel and ground the last 1.5" into a triangular cross section. I can clean the corners really well with this but I have to remind myself to watch out for last 1.5" as those sides are very sharp. You may want to look at the dovetail chisels at www.toolsforwoodworking.com (open up chisels and then bench chisels and its the first one).

[Derek Cohen]

Bob! You've got to stop telling everyone about Witherbys! If you do, I'll promise to stop telling everyone about Bergs for dovetailing. Then there'll be more for you and I.

Wishing you and all a great 2006.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Singer]

Actuall the marples are fine it is personal preference.....having expensive chisels don't always make for better dovetails...

[Rob Millard]

Brian,

I switched to the Japanese chisels that are sold by Woodcraft and others, and they have served me well. They are pretty inexpensive, take and hold a very good edge, and are thin enough at the edges to get into the corners of a dovetail. For the very small dovetails I often cut, I bought a 3/16" Japanese dovetail chisel, it is a great chisel, but a little fragile. I also have a Lie-Nielsen chisel, it is a very nice chisel, and feels better in my hand, than the Japanese chisels, but costs almost twice as much.
I've heard people say the Japanese chisels are made for softwood and therefore aren't suitable for working in hardwoods, but I don't know where they get that from, I've beat mine into oak, maple, mahogany,and birch without a problem.
Rob Millard

[Geoff Irvine]

Brian,
After Marks post I rechecked that link and saw I had misread the price, sorry about that. Here are some photos. The chisels I use the most for paring my dovetails are the E A Berg (red handle), the Swearby (3rd from bottom) and the Tyzack. I use the LNs for the initial chopping but tend to prefer these three chisels when I cutting dovetails. These three chisels cost nothing, literally, as I was given them and, as the tyzack was in a sad state, I had nothing to lose so I modified it. What is interesting about those Japenese chisel is that they are made in the same manner that I modified the chisel i.e. with a triangular crosssection - 'there's nothing new in woodworking'. The dovetails are only 3/8" deep so there isn't a lot of room to pare. My point in posting here is to offer another prospective on approaching this subject - hope this gives you some ideas.

[Bob Smalser]

Elaborate chisel sets are an indulgence late in life.

I cut dovetails for 30 years with a common set of Footprint bench chisels and a utility knife to reach in the corners where needed.

[Mark Singer]

Elaborate chisel sets are an indulgence late in life.

I cut dovetails for 30 years with a common set of Footprint bench chisels and a utility knife to reach in the corners where needed.

Exactly the way I feel!

[Bob Smalser]

And I never felt under-equipped until the internet came along and I started to read woodworker forums.

[Jim Dunn]

I'd rather be over knowledged like Bob and Mark than under-equipped as I am. No, make that both.

Jim

[Brian Knop]

Thanks for all of the great information I appreciate it. I am going to buy a few better chisel but not go crazy. I am also going to buy the Veritas MK II Honing Guide. MY current one isn’t very good. Then I think I’ll just keep practicing on my dovetails.

Thanks Brian

[Wes Harper]

I can't recommend chisels made of A2 or D2 steel, simply because chisels are too easily sharpened to lose any amount of edge quality to edge longevity...and if you were to use A2 chisels and the forged Barr's side by side, you'd see what I mean.



Bob,

So based on your experience, what do you prefer for plane blades;cast/high carbon/tool steel, A2, or other?

[Bob Smalser]

Bob,

So based on your experience, what do you prefer for plane blades;cast/high carbon/tool steel, A2, or other?

I can live with A2 in a plane iron, but frankly, remain unimpressed. The A2 irons in my planes don't perform any better than the stock Stanley irons, and I don't sharpen either often enuf to notice a difference there..

When investment casting replaced forging almost 50 years ago now, there have been countless attempts to achieve that magic compromise between edge retention and ease of sharpening inherent in the well-crafted, drop or hand-forged tools of a previous era.

A2 achieves its edge retention with additional hardness that makes it harder to sharpen....and it simply doesn't take the edge my Witherbies do on conventional stones. I can't say I prefer spending longer to achieve a mediocre edge in an easily-honed chisel, although in a plane irons that are a pain to disassemble, I think A2 has it's niche.

M2 HSS as in lathe tools is hard and also gummy, and won't take an edge easily or as finely using conventional stones. As honing comes easily to me, even my lathe tools are all prewar carbon that are much, much sharper than the few Sorbies I only keep around because they fit my sizing gages.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603820.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5813427/74603811.jpg

D2 is a tough, diemaker's steel that I'm told Ashley Iles is using in their new bolstered mortise chisels. I saw one...pretty, and larger than others of its type...but I didn't need to use it so I didn't do any of the honing it needed. As its composition is more like M2 that plain, old carbon steel, I'm not hopeful.

I'm not saying these aren't good tool steels, as there are testers who got them just as sharp using diamond pastes as I do old tool steel on stones, although none of them said how long it took to do it.... I'm simply not interested in changing anything I have that works extremely well.

[Wes Harper]

So Bob, I'm guessing that you don't have one of those exotic Hotley replacement blades sitting around?

www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HOLTS53.XX&Category_Code= (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HOLTS53.XX&Category_Code=)

I respect your pragmatic approach and appreciate your letting us have the benefit of your experience!