Newby cabinet question

[Bob Hardin]

Hi all,
I feel like this is a dumb question, but I’m stumped. I’m building new cabinets for my kitchen, stained. They are faceframe style. Maple (for now).

I have a lumber company in the Atlanta area and they sell 2” precut faceframe material. My problem is that almost all lumber is, at least, a little bowed. Even the dimensional maple is bowed, at least a bit. I can correct most of the bowing on the faceframes. But, I need the cabinet doors’ rails and stiles to be straight and unbowed to close correctly.

If I plane it, then the tongue and groove doesn’t really line up. Since it is exactly 3/4” thick, I like the uniformity.
So, what do most of ya’ll do to get the stiles/rails straight? Can you find un-bowed lumber (besides oak)?
Please help. ALL suggestions/ideas are appreciated.
bob

P.S. I’m also looking at a Jessum router table or a shaper for tongue/groove. Ideas?

[Jim Dwight]

I just hung some doors on a cabinet today that I built out of shelving boards from the home center. They were thus thicknessed when I bought them. One door is not flat, I think I introduced at least part of the issue by not clamping it to my assembly table during glueup. But some may have been the wood I used. This cabinet is for me and is kind of informal to fit the room so I will just leave it. It would be less visible if the doors were overlay but I like inset so that is what I made.

I usually buy rough sawed hardwood for projects and for doors, I cut the material to rough size, joint one face to get it flat, then plane to thickness. If the wood doesn't change moisture content prior to glueup and finish, and I clamp it up right, I get a door with minimal lack of flatness or other issue. But if you lack the tools to start with rough sawed lumber, I think all you can do is to pick the best (straightest) pieces for the doors. Use the warped stuff for face frames and the straightest material for the doors.

[Bob Hardin]

Thanks Jim

[glenn bradley]

I would like to hear from some of our pro cabinet shop guys on this as it is a good subject for discussion. In my one man shop I have never had long term success in forcing material into shape for doors, drawers or other critical moving parts. The wood always wins and either immediately or eventually goes out of square.

I would recommend using the bulk processed face frame material for face frames that are attached to supporting material for their full length and properly milling material for doors and drawers. It will be good to hear how the production shops do it if someone will kindly chime in.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi all,
I feel like this is a dumb question, but I’m stumped. I’m building new cabinets for my kitchen, stained. They are faceframe style. Maple (for now).

I have a lumber company in the Atlanta area and they sell 2” precut faceframe material. My problem is that almost all lumber is, at least, a little bowed. Even the dimensional maple is bowed, at least a bit. I can correct most of the bowing on the faceframes. But, I need the cabinet doors’ rails and stiles to be straight and unbowed to close correctly.

If I plane it, then the tongue and groove doesn’t really line up. Since it is exactly 3/4” thick, I like the uniformity.
So, what do most of ya’ll do to get the stiles/rails straight? Can you find un-bowed lumber (besides oak)?
Please help. ALL suggestions/ideas are appreciated.
bob

P.S. I’m also looking at a Jessum router table or a shaper for tongue/groove. Ideas?

Hi Bob

Wood moves. I am sure the frames were flat at the factory, but then ...

Here is an idea: If you can mill off 1-2mm from each side of each section, and do this for all sections, the loss is unlikely to be noticed or affect the set up with the grooves. I would do this on a table saw with a fixture ala leg tapering.

It is a lot of extra work, but it costs you time and not money.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Hardin]

Good idea.

[Bruce King]

Even Kraftmaid which is built by another company to their standards can’t overcome bowing. I have installed these new cabinets in two kitchens and I always had to get warranty replacement on bowed doors. Euro hinges really help in splitting the difference on small problems to hide it. The 2001 kitchen did not use the best hinges so more doors had to be replaced.

[Bob Hardin]

Since I don’t plan on doing much, if any, raised panel doors, do you think a Jessum (or another brand) of router table/lift should be purchased? Or should I spring for a shaper like the Grizzly G1026? Mainly gonna use it for the most uniform tongue/groove. The prices are about the same ($1300+-).

[Andrew Seemann]

Soft maple is nice to work with and pretty stable, but hard maple is a bear to keep straight, almost as bad as birch or beech. Drawer fronts have the box to keep them flat, but door frames are difficult. If you have to use hard maple, search out the straightest of your face frame stock. If you mill it from rough, you still need to look for the straightest stock. Remember, it was sawed straight at the mill, if it is cupped, twisted, or warped after drying, even if you mill it straight again, when the humidity changes, it will want to go back to the shape it was originally (or more in the other direction).

[Erik Loza]

I would recommend using the bulk processed face frame material for face frames that are attached to supporting material for their full length and properly milling material for doors and drawers. It will be good to hear how the production shops do it if someone will kindly chime in.

Poplar is by far the most common faceframe material I see in shops in my area.

Erik

[Bruce King]

Many people are liking the shaker style kitchen cabinet doors so think about resale.
They are easier to build and don’t look outdated. These are Kraftmaid who have the best finish process out there for cabinets. Not saying to buy any if you have time to make your own.

[Jim Becker]

I personally wouldn't buy material like that if it's not straight and true. A tiny variation? Not really a problem, at least for face frames, but for the doors...nope. It's gotta be flat.

[Bob Hardin]

I personally wouldn't buy material like that if it's not straight and true. A tiny variation? Not really a problem, at least for face frames, but for the doors...nope. It's gotta be flat.
Jim, don’t know where to buy straight and true. Ideas?

[Rick Potter]

No pro, but I've built a couple kitchens (oak).

First, I sand all my stock the the same thickness with my drum sander, then I cut my face and door frame parts an extra quarter inch wide, and an inch or so extra long, then let them sit in my shop for a few days. Most of them bow a bit.

Then I joint one edge flat, cut the other side, and chop to length. I have not had many twisting problems. Those became firewood.

PS: About those raised panels. I built my first kitchen with oak raised panels, using a PC 690 router in a benchtop router table. Three or four passes, as I remember. They are over 25 years old, and still going strong. It can be done without a shaper, with patience.

[Lee Schierer]

There must be other suppliers in the Atlanta area. I wouldn't buy lumber for cabinet making that is warped or twisted. I rarely see a twisted, cupped, bowed or warped board at either of the two S4S hardwood suppliers I use. It sounds like your source isn't transporting/storing his wood supply correctly.

[Bruce King]

I have asked the big box stores to bring down another stack of wood if there is just leftover pieces there.
For cabinets and finer pieces you need to find a hardwood supplier or order online. The first time I ordered mahogany online I got much more so I wouldn’t have to deal with it again and besides, prices go up. A tractor trailer stopped in front of my house with a pallet of 13ft planks on it. I almost had a heart attack, he was parked on a fairly busy road. He started taking pieces out and I grabbed a hand truck. I read an article about buying wood for a single project, it said to order twice as much as you figured. It’s not a cheap hobby or business. The leftovers will get used for something eventually but you need a quantity to pick your pieces from. You start with 4/4 or sometimes 5/4 to get your straight pieces from by using a jointer to flatten one face and square one edge. The you can plane the other side and cut your pieces on the table saw after they are prepped.

[Bob Hardin]

All great ideas. I’ll look for other suppliers.

[Dave Sabo]

Since I don’t plan on doing much

If this is the case, then you'd be better off ordering your doors and drawers from a dedicated operation. They'll make you whatever you want in whatever species. They'll almost always be cheaper than you can do it yourself too. Especially, if you don't have tooling already.

Of course, if you're really looking to expand your tool collection and or the sense of accomplishment of DIY - then this would be a non starter. The short answer to your orig. question is you order oversized and twice as much raw lumber as you need and then you size it yourself. After you've let it acclimate to your shop. Do you have a good jointer and planer ?

[Bob Hardin]

If this is the case, then you'd be better off ordering your doors and drawers from a dedicated operation. They'll make you whatever you want in whatever species. They'll almost always be cheaper than you can do it yourself too. Especially, if you don't have tooling already.

Of course, if you're really looking to expand your tool collection and or the sense of accomplishment of DIY - then this would be a non starter. The short answer to your orig. question is you order oversized and twice as much raw lumber as you need and then you size it yourself. After you've let it acclimate to your shop. Do you have a good jointer and planer ?
Dave, I have a good planer (Dewalt) but no jointer. I really want to build them myself, because I thought that would help me pay for new equipment.
Is ordering the doors really that inexpensive?

[Jim Becker]

Ordering doors and drawers from the many suppliers of the same can be pretty economical when you account for both time and tooling. The single downside to ordering doors is that they may not be quite as particular relative to grain matching that some folks (like me) prefer for stain grade work, but that's pretty much consistent with a large percentage of orderable cabinetry anyway unless you buy full custom for big bucks and specify accordingly. And for paint grade...it's a no-brainer, honestly, especially for a full kitchen. Build the boxes for sure. But there's no harm in considering buying the doors and drawers (the latter preferable wherever they can be used in a kitchen, IMHO) and put your time into other details. You don't necessarily save any money building your own, honestly. It's mostly just the "satisfaction" factor...

[Phillip Gregory]

Since I don’t plan on doing much, if any, raised panel doors, do you think a Jessum (or another brand) of router table/lift should be purchased? Or should I spring for a shaper like the Grizzly G1026? Mainly gonna use it for the most uniform tongue/groove. The prices are about the same ($1300+-).


Cutting tongue and groove is an easy job for a smaller shaper like the 3/4" spindle Grizzly G1026 you mention. You can cut the tongues easily in one pass with a couple of straight cutters and a spacer, and cut the grooves easily in one pass with a straight cutter. That would be much harder on a 120 volt universal motor router, although it is doable (and probably take more than one pass.) A shaper that size can run panel raising cutters but it typically requires more than one pass. You also don't necessarily have to get brand new tools. For example, a Delta HD shaper is the same size as a Grizzly G1026 and you can find them easily on local classified ads for a few hundred bucks in running condition.

[Dave Sabo]

Dave, I have a good planer (Dewalt) but no jointer. I really want to build them myself, because I thought that would help me pay for new equipment.
Is ordering the doors really that inexpensive?

Inexpensive .........I didn’t exactly say that. But it really depends on your threshold of pain.

What I am saying is that door/component operations buy lumber at prices you can only dream of. Ditto with their equipment. Even if you facTor your time at $0 and pay for shipping they’ll still be close in price per door. And you’re going to have to have to buy a fair amount of equipment to even get in the game. Put together a list of doors you need before proceeding and get a quote from a manuf. or two. Compare that with the price of lumber to fill your cutlist plus a generous tool budget. So , I am saying they are very likely to be cheaper than your total outlay for material and tools.

Jim is spot on re: grain selection. They’ll do an ok or even good job, but not the kind of heirloom selection a loving craftsman will spend hours on. Maple isn’t the sort of wood that people usually fawn over for homogeneous matching. It’s also not really that great for stain application, though it’s done all the time.

If you have a DW725, you’re in good shape. One of the other planers will certainly work but aren’t in the same league. No jointer ? That’s a bit of a problem. Gotta get one before this project can start. Used ones are pretty rare in ATL lately. 8” is generally considered a min. for serious work. I’d go with a router table before I went for a 3/4“ shaper. It’s more versatile and router bits are easier to come by and usually cheaper. Lots of cabinet doors have been made with 2 1/4 hp routers on a table. A 3hp would be even better.

How are you going to make your shelf supports? Anything efficient is $$. How about drawers ? You going to try and make your own? Are you going to need more tools for this ? Again , outsourcing to a drawer manuf. is usually the way to go. Got a hinge boring jig ? Good ones are a couple hundred $. If you have drill press already, then you can make one easily.

[Robert D Evans]

I've got the tools to make raised panel doors but I quit making them myself because I can get them cheaper and near perfect from Georgia Hardwoods in Buford. It's a huge operation and you can pick from dozens of styles, types of wood and specify the exact size you need. Last time I bought from them, they were about a week behind. This is an option since you said you were in the Atlanta area.

[Mike Kees]

I build cabinets and doors for a living. I absolutely hate trying to use s2s stock that is already at the thickness specified for use. I like material at 5/4 minimum to give me wiggle room to flatten on my jointer and then plane. Working this way ,I have had very few doors that had to be replaced. I rough rip to width on my bandsaw and then use my shaper with an outboard fence to dimension and put a finish cut on the edge of stile and rail stock (one edge). The other edge is cut when I profile it. (Also a pass through the shaper with the outboard fence.)

[Bob Hardin]

I've got the tools to make raised panel doors but I quit making them myself because I can get them cheaper and near perfect from Georgia Hardwoods in Buford. It's a huge operation and you can pick from dozens of styles, types of wood and specify the exact size you need. Last time I bought from them, they were about a week behind. This is an option since you said you were in the Atlanta area.
I’ve been wanting to go by their store. I live 100 miles north, so haven’t had the chance yet.