LV Custom plane, blade/chip breaker screws.

[Dan Kraakenes]

I was wondering what is your thoughts on how the LV Custom planes blade and chip breaker is attached to each other, compared to the Baily planes?

"Baily" uses a single large screw.
LV uses two small ones.

The large screw would seem more durable over the next 20-30-40years?

Or am I just overthinking this.. :)

[Prashun Patel]

Overthinking.

They are all fine. It’s personal preference.

The holes on the side of the bevel up jointer are for an optional fence. I use that for jointing long board edges. I use separate straight edges and winding sticks for checking flat.

In a year or two, none of these tiny features will matter. What will matter is how easy and comfortable you can make a shaving. Just go with your choices but be willing to change after you’ve really tried it and understood it.

[Dan Kraakenes]

Was thinking one might be more prone to over tighten the two small screws, compared to the larger "Bailey" screw.
Leading to sloppy fit after a while?
Since you have to do it each time one sharpens the iron.

I also use a lightweight Aluminium straight edge for checking flat.


.

[lowell holmes]

Rob Lee monitors this site. I suspect he might contact you.

[Winston Chang]

The attachment mechanism between the blade and chipbreaker is the one thing I really dislike about my custom smoother.

The one thing it is good for is returning the chipbreaker to the exact same position after sharpening. But that's actually a bad thing: exact positioning matters only when you're setting it very close, but if it's that close, then a few sharpenings of the blade will remove enough material that you'll have to move the chipbreaker back to maintain the same position relative to the edge. And when you do that, you have to fiddle with those little screws, and doing so is more difficult than with a Bailey-style plane.

Incidentally, there's a trick to tightening the screws so that the chipbreaker won't move around as you tighten them. If you tighten the one that it seems that should be tightened first, the rotation of the screw head will cause the connector piece to move around and you'll lose the chipbreaker position. You have to tighten the other one first. I think Chris Schwarz has a blog post about this somewhere.

I did actually damage one of the screws shortly after I got one of these planes, from overtightening it. I couldn't find anything that would fit locally, so I ended up having to order another connector assembly from Lee Valley.

Oh, and then there's the issue of the little hex wrench. You need it every time you sharpen the blade or adjust the chipbreaker. If you lose it, you're stuck: you can't even sharpen the blade. Of course you can get extras, but what size is it? I don't know. They don't even say what size it is in the instructions. (OK, you can find this out by trying out hex keys, but still, it's annoying.) And then there's the metric/imperial thing. Is it metric? Is it imperial? If it's imperial, then for those that live outside of North America, finding an extra might be difficult. (Rant over)

[Derek Cohen]

I was wondering what is your thoughts on how the LV Custom planes blade and chip breaker is attached to each other, compared to the Baily planes?

"Baily" uses a single large screw.
LV uses two small ones.

The large screw would seem more durable over the next 20-30-40years?

Or am I just overthinking this.. :)

Dan, the two screws provide a choice: to use the chipbreaker or not. They are tough and unlikely to be damaged if you are sensible. There is not need to over tighten.

Here is an extract from my article (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2.html) on the Custom Planes ....

Removing the chipbreaker …


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_ma81ef7a.jpg


Incidentally, it does not matter which way around the blade carrier is positioned. What is important is that the small, embedded screw locks the blade carrier to the blade, and the button-head screw locks the chipbreaker to the blade carrier/blade. The embedded screw also prevents the chipbreaker swiveling.


Do not remove the screws – just loosen them. Contrary to advice, you will remove the blade carrier. Why? Because setting the chipbreaker requires minute amounts of placement, and it is something one must do by eye.


Once the blade has been sharpened, and the chipbreaker is to be replaced, you are going to reverse the process. However, an observation by Chris Schwarz (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/best-adjust-cap-iron-veritas-plane). Chris suggested first securing the blade carrier screw, and then the chipbreaker screw. Doing so the other way around will cause a tiny bit of movement of the chipbreaker, which is relevant when one is talking in fractions of a millimeter at the leading edge of the blade.
Below, loosening the screws ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_5b982e8d.jpg


Now, if you hold the blade and chipbreaker apart with your fingers …


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_3547d885.jpg


… there is sufficient space to slide the chipbreaker forward and over the end of the blade without touching the edge.




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_m39825099.jpg


Of course, you will reverse this process when bringing them together. Just ensure that the slots in the blade carrier align with the slot in the blade.


Last point when removing or replacing a blade, tilt the body until the bed of the frog is horizontal for increased control …


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_m46d0d782.jpg




Setting the chipbreaker for ultimate performance


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_5ee5283a.jpg


Above is a typical setting for a closed up chipbreaker. This is in the range of 0.4mm – 0.5mm. After a little practice you will be able to do this by eye.


If you inadvertently set the chipbreaker too close, all that will happen is that the plane will struggle to cut. You will find the shavings are excessively crinkly. When the chipbreaker is working, that is, bending the shavings into a Type 1 formation (i.e. straight up), most woods will create shavings that straighten (where before they may have been curly).


It is important to recognize that the use of a chipbreaker is a choice. The Veritas planes may be set up without a chipbreaker, that is, as single-iron planes.


As mentioned in the introduction, the Custom Planes began life as a single iron configuration. There are many bevel down planes that work this way, and do so exceptionally well: Lie-Nielsen offer high angle frogs, HNT Gordon offer planes in either 55-degree or 60-degree format, Brese, Old Street, and Konrad Sauer, amongst others, all prefer at least 50 degree beds for their planes, all of which sport single-irons. Among bevel up planes, it has been one of their attractions that they can be used with a high-included angle simply by using a bevel with a high angle, such as 50 degrees, which will create an included angle of 62 degrees.


The attraction of a single iron plane is that it has fewer parts, and is less complex and much easier to set up. Setting a chipbreaker has a learning curve, and having a plane that performs as well sans chipbreaker will make for less frustration for some. The question is whether the chipbreaker is worth the extra effort? Or is choosing a single iron plane short sighted?


I use these items to adjust the blade and chipbreaker: a 2 oz jeweller's hammer and a hex driver.

https://i.postimg.cc/ncY5Xg6L/Custom-plane-tools1a-1_zps0dqmnrit.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes2_html_m608e80ee.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

And then there's the metric/imperial thing. Is it metric? Is it imperial? If it's imperial, then for those that live outside of North America, finding an extra might be difficult.

My recollection of the few things from Veritas that have come through my shop all used Allen keys of equivalent sizes between metric and imperial.

8mm=5/16"
4mm=5/32"
2mm=5/64"

jtk

[Jeff Ranck]

I actually prefer the LV custom plane setup. It is easier for me to get the chip breaker/cap iron adjusted correctly. When I am setting it close (the 0.5 mm that Derek mentioned), as I tighten the large screw on my Lie-Nielson plane, the cap iron wants to move. With the LV, you can set the distance and get things "locked down" to the iron so the cap iron doesn't move when you tighten it down.

Not sure if that made any sense.

[Dan Kraakenes]

A while since this has been brought up..

What frog angel would all of you suggest? 40 - 45 - 50.
I saw Derek bought a custom 42deg..

[Derek Cohen]

Dan, I have a 42-degree frog since the Custom #4 is used exclusively with a closed up chipbreaker. The lower frog adds to slightly less effort to push and slightly improved surface clearness than a 45-degree frog. I think that most would be hard put to notice this, and especially in hard woods and after a finish is applied. This plane, as set up, is sublime in smoothing without tearout. The PM-V11 blade cuts cleanly.

Personally, I would not go higher than 45-degrees if you plan to use a closed up chipbreaker. I purchased the #4 with both 42- and a 50-degree frogs, and have only used the 50-degree frog a couple of times. It lives on a shelf.

A story to illustrate the difference: Many years ago I purchased the LN #4 1/2 Anniversary. That was when it was made, and I was one of the few to get it. We are going back about 15-18 years now, and this was in the heyday of high cutting angles. The revival of the closed chipbreaker was not upon us. The Anniversary plane came with a 50 degree frog. LN had begun manufacturing a range of frogs, and I later purchased the 55-degree to go with this. The combination of the 55- and the #4 1/2's wide blade made this plane just awful to use, and the 55-degrees was not even high enough to combat tearout in my local West Australian woods. Onto the shelf it went. A couple of years later I decided to try again, this time with the LN bronze #3, reasoning that the 1 3/4" wide blade should change the ergonomics. I went straight to a 55-degree frog. Same story. It was hard to push and I hated it. For high cutting angle planing I returned to BU planes, which have a low centre of effort, and avoid this heavy feeling.

Then it was 2013, and we were experimenting with closed up chipbreakers. Now 45-degree frogs were taming tearout. I purchased a 45-degree frog for the #3 and traded the 55 for a 45 for the #4 1/2. Night-and-day! These planes were transformed from utter dogs to users. The #4 1/2 is a tank, but this comes into its own with large panels. The #3 is a delight, and is used equally with the Custom #4. They feel about the same size. I would love Veritas to make a #3 Custom, and would snap one up.

The Custom vs Stanley/LN double iron set up is interesting. Pros and cons. Most of us are so used to the Stanley system that we find it easier. The Veritas Custom system is very different. It takes a little getting used to, which is made easier if you use the driver I posted earlier. What becomes apparent is that the Veritas Custom adjusts from the "right" side, that is, you can see the amount of closeness as you tighten down the screws. Also, it is somewhat self-centering. The Stanley can wander a little, and is adjusted "upside down" with less visibility. However, it has a nice large head to manually tighten, which is less involved. Once one becomes familiar with each, they are just different and one ignores their idiosyncrasies.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan Kraakenes]

So.. to me it sounds like the 40deg might be better.
With chipbreaker.

Oak, elm and walnut are the hardest woods I will see 99% of the time.
With perhaps a tiny bit of exotics for smaller details.

[Derek Cohen]

Dan, I have a Custom #7 with a 40-degree frog. This is wonderful for both face- and edge grain, and can even shoot end grain. While it works well, 40 degrees is getting close to the limit of the relief/clearance angle, the lower limit of which is often spoken of as 12 degrees. 10 degrees also works, but a 30-degree bevel on the blade is now at this. Increase the bevel angle, and you run out of clearance. Therefore, 42 degrees is safer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Ranck]

Dan, I have a 42-degree frog since the Custom #4 is used exclusively with a closed up chipbreaker. The lower frog adds to slightly less effort to push and slightly improved surface clearness than a 45-degree frog. I think that most would be hard put to notice this, and especially in hard woods and after a finish is applied. This plane, as set up, is sublime in smoothing without tearout. The PM-V11 blade cuts cleanly.

Personally, I would not go higher than 45-degrees if you plan to use a closed up chipbreaker. I purchased the #4 with both 42- and a 50-degree frogs, and have only used the 50-degree frog a couple of times. It lives on a shelf.

A story to illustrate the difference: Many years ago I purchased the LN #4 1/2 Anniversary. That was when it was made, and I was one of the few to get it. We are going back about 15-18 years now, and this was in the heyday of high cutting angles. The revival of the closed chipbreaker was not upon us. The Anniversary plane came with a 50 degree frog. LN had begun manufacturing a range of frogs, and I later purchased the 55-degree to go with this. The combination of the 55- and the #4 1/2's wide blade made this plane just awful to use, and the 55-degrees was not even high enough to combat tearout in my local West Australian woods. Onto the shelf it went. A couple of years later I decided to try again, this time with the LN bronze #3, reasoning that the 1 3/4" wide blade should change the ergonomics. I went straight to a 55-degree frog. Same story. It was hard to push and I hated it. For high cutting angle planing I returned to BU planes, which have a low centre of effort, and avoid this heavy feeling.

Then it was 2013, and we were experimenting with closed up chipbreakers. Now 45-degree frogs were taming tearout. I purchased a 45-degree frog for the #3 and traded the 55 for a 45 for the #4 1/2. Night-and-day! These planes were transformed from utter dogs to users. The #4 1/2 is a tank, but this comes into its own with large panels. The #3 is a delight, and is used equally with the Custom #4. They feel about the same size. I would love Veritas to make a #3 Custom, and would snap one up.

The Custom vs Stanley/LN double iron set up is interesting. Pros and cons. Most of us are so used to the Stanley system that we find it easier. The Veritas Custom system is very different. It takes a little getting used to, which is made easier if you use the driver I posted earlier. What becomes apparent is that the Veritas Custom adjusts from the "right" side, that is, you can see the amount of closeness as you tighten down the screws. Also, it is somewhat self-centering. The Stanley can wander a little, and is adjusted "upside down" with less visibility. However, it has a nice large head to manually tighten, which is less involved. Once one becomes familiar with each, they are just different and one ignores their idiosyncrasies.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Huh, did I write this under another name? Like Derek, I also have a #4 LV custom with a 42 deg. frog. I blame Derek for doing all the work that influenced me to buy the plane set up that way. Love it, love it, love it. I also like a smaller plane and wish that LV made a #3. So (unaware that Derek had trod the same path) I purchased a LN bronze #3 with the 55 deg. frog. I don't love it. Hard to push, Not sure I get anything out of the higher frog with a close set cap iron. I do, however, love the size and see a new frog purchase in my future.

I also set up my BU jack with a higher angle, although my BU jointer is a 45 deg. angle.

Jeff.

[Jason Martin Winnipeg]

After reading this I realize I've been taking my chip breaker off my Vertias custom planes all wrong these past couple of years.

[Warren Mickley]

Huh, did I write this under another name? Like Derek, I also have a #4 LV custom with a 42 deg. frog. I blame Derek for doing all the work that influenced me to buy the plane set up that way. Love it, love it, love it. I also like a smaller plane and wish that LV made a #3. So (unaware that Derek had trod the same path) I purchased a LN bronze #3 with the 55 deg. frog. I don't love it. Hard to push, Not sure I get anything out of the higher frog with a close set cap iron. I do, however, love the size and see a new frog purchase in my future.

I also set up my BU jack with a higher angle, although my BU jointer is a 45 deg. angle.

Jeff.

I have been using a 42 degree smoothing plane since 1981. I altered the frog of a Stanley plane.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, I believe that I have given you credit for this frog angle in past discussions. I should have mentioned it here as well. My apology.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, I believe that I have given you credit for this frog angle in past discussions. I should have mentioned it here as well. My apology.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yes, I remember. I just thought Jeff went a little overboard.

[Kurt Cady]

I too wish they would make a #3. Rob? Rob, are you out there listening?!? Ha. I think I’ve made that comment a few times here. Cant remember Rob’s response

[David Bassett]

I too wish they would make a #3. Rob? Rob, are you out there listening?!? Ha. I think I’ve made that comment a few times here. Cant remember Rob’s response

Me 3!

That or L-N would issue another run of their ductile iron #3. (I learned my lesson, if it's available blow up the CC don't wait until next month or you'll be waiting much much longer.)

[Kurt Cady]

From Dec 2018....

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?269974-Ideas-for-Veritas-next-tool&p=2874190#post2874190

[Jeff Ranck]

Hi Warren:

I now do remember that I did read of the 42 deg. angle from you first. Sorry that I had forgotten that. I had not meant to overlook your contributions and the discussion you presented.

Sorry,

Jeff.