Hello and thank you

[Patrick Hunter]

Hello everyone. I'm a relatively new turner and love the hobby. I'm new to this forum but have learned a lot already from reading other posts. I love how supportive the turning community is.

I posted a similar thread on the AAW forum but wanted input from you fine folks as well. Due to a generous order, I have the funds to completely upgrade my tools and equipment. For reference, I'm currently turning on an Excelsior Lathe and, as I've made mostly pens so far, only have Rockler's carbide pen turning tool set. I'm planning to upgrade my lathe, tools and invest in a sharpening system. I thought I'd throw out my plan and get your feedback.

Lathe: I'm about 90% sure I'm going to get the Laguna Revo 1216, thanks mostly to the advice of Mike Peace and a couple others. It's big enough to do what I want, fits my budget, and the outboard turning capability is unmatched in the class. Plus the availability of a 20" extension, it should meet all my needs for years. The others I've considered are the Jet 1221VS and the Rikon 70-220VSR.

Sharpening: Once again, I'm mostly settled on this. I plan on getting a complete Kodiak system from Ken at Woodturning Wonders. I like the ease of set up with his grinder base and that I get two CBN wheels along with all the jigs I'll need in one package.

Tools: Here's where I need the most input. After some advice from the AAW crowd, I'm thinking of getting a bowl gouge and spindle gouge from Doug Thompson. Then a couple more tools (skew, scrapers and roughing gouge) from Sorby or similar. I'd like to get away from pens for the most part and transition to bowls and boxes mostly with occasional spindle work. What other tools would you suggest? Any others that would be better to invest in high quality now?

Thanks in advance for your advice and I look forward to learning more from you all.

[Joe Bradshaw]

Hi, Patrick. It's always good to see someone start the slide down the slippery slope of wood turning. I have the Kodiak system. The grinder and the CBN wheels are great. The rest of the system is only so-so in mho. I like my Wolverine set-up much better. I have the vari-grind and the vari-grind two. I like both of them. I have found a grind that I like and have both set to the angles of my spindle gouges and bowl gouges. I cut pieces of pvc pipe so that I can set the vee arms the same every time. It takes longer for my grinder to get up to speed than it takes to refresh the edge.
Joe

[Paul Heely]

I haven't looked at lathes in a very long time. I'm currently saving/lusting after a Robust American Beauty, so I'm no help on lathe advice. On the tool front, I have several of Doug's tools, a couple of V-shaped bowl gouges, a U-shaped ground as a bottom bowl gouge, and a bunch of skews that I've turned into scrapers. I think his tools are great. That said, I am selling off my V-shaped bowl gouges, because I prefer a parabolic shaped flute instead. But, that's strictly personal preference. I also have Sorby gouges (bowl and spindle), Hamlet, and a bunch of Packard branded spindle gouges. Packard's house tools are made by Hamlet according to their latest catalog. I think the Packard tools are a great value. I think boxes are a ton of fun. I'm also partial to turning hollow forms and with the lathes you are looking at could do a lot different hollowing turning too.

Welcome to the vortex!

[David Walser]

... I'd like to get away from pens for the most part and transition to bowls and boxes mostly with occasional spindle work. What other tools would you suggest? Any others that would be better to invest in high quality now?

If you are already transitioning to bowls and boxes, allow me to suggest that you'll quickly find the 12" swing of the Laguna Revo 1216 to be limiting. As a practical matter, it's fairly hard to turn anything larger than 10" on a lathe with a 12" swing. So, I'd suggest considering something with 16+" of swing. There are several contenders for not too much more than the mid-size lathes having a 12" swing.

As for the tools, there's nothing wrong with the Sorby tools you listed. But, there's little right with them either. Personally, I prefer the feel of the tools from Henry Taylor or Hamlet (also made in England) over the Sorby tools. But, if you're looking for quality steel at a lower price than Thompson, consider Craft Supplies USA's house brand. Their Artisan tools are made by Henry Taylor in England. The only difference between the Artisan tools and those from Henry Taylor is the 'real thing' is polished a little more. Same steel, same size, same tempering. Just not as polished. (There's also a smaller selection.)

HTH

[David Walser]

...I also have Sorby gouges (bowl and spindle), Hamlet, and a bunch of Packard branded spindle gouges. Packard's house tools are made by Hamlet according to their latest catalog. I think the Packard tools are a great value. I think boxes are a ton of fun. I'm also partial to turning hollow forms and with the lathes you are looking at could do a lot different hollowing turning too.


I agree with Paul's comments. As with the Aritisan brand of tools from Craft Supplies USA, Packard's tools are made by one of the major English turning tool companies in the UK. They're just not finished to the same level as the company's own brand. I've heard good things about them and they're a good value. I have some Hamlet tools and I like them. I prefer Henry Taylor, but it's just a slight preference. I prefer both to Sorby.

[tom lucas]

I would suggest the v-shaped gouges from Thompson Tools. Obviously, Paul perfers the U-shape. I have both but like the aggressiveness of the v-shape best. Paul, I might be interested in you V-gouges, if you have a 5/8" or bigger. As for other tools:

parting tool is almost a must (and you can make your own)
spindle roughing gouge
1/2" spindle gouge (some prefer the 3/8" but for me it has too much chatter on out of round stock)
1" or 3/4" skew
negative rake scraper (and scrapers in general)

Thompson's are excellent. I have a couple of Carter and Son tools that are real nice too. Sorby tools are OK, but for just a few dollars more you can get V10 or M42 steel.

Can't speak to your sharpening system except to say I have the woverine on a Rikon 8" CBN grinder. Works great. You'll want a burnishing tool and a diamond hone card/tapers too.

I also agree, a 12" lathe is quite limiting, and by the time you buy the extension you may as well step up to a bigger lathe. And if you want to turn big, out-of-round, stock you'll need some weight too.

and so the spending begins.....

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Welcome!
I'm going to go against the grain here for a moment. My $0.02 would be to buy some CHEAP gouges (spindle and bowl) and practice/learn how to sharpen on them before you plink your hard earned dollars on a Thompson/D way or whichever high dollar tools. That way, as you learn and experiment, you waste away your cheapo tool steel. When you find the grind that you like, then invest in a "good" gouge. I'll leave the definition of cheap up to you.

I'll agree, if you can afford the investment, jump to a 16" lathe if you can. There is a huge difference in price though. If you do get the 12" you'll probably find that the 12" will limit your bowl turning ability and want the 16" sooner or later. If you do not think you'll want to turn big bowls, a 12" is fine. A 10" bowl/platter is actually pretty good sized. About a dinner plate, so a 12" can turn most everything you may want. BUT you can turn bigger things on a big lathe. It's also much easier and faster to rough a blank on a 500 pound lathe.

[Paul Heely]

I probably wasn’t clear. For swept back gouges I prefer a parabolic gouge. Only like the U for bottom bowl gouges.

[Patrick Hunter]

Thank you all for your input. It's given me quite a bit to think about. I'll be waiting until I finish this big project I'm working on before I make any final decisions. I'll keep you posted

[Patrick Hunter]

If you are already transitioning to bowls and boxes, allow me to suggest that you'll quickly find the 12" swing of the Laguna Revo 1216 to be limiting. As a practical matter, it's fairly hard to turn anything larger than 10" on a lathe with a 12" swing. So, I'd suggest considering something with 16+" of swing. There are several contenders for not too much more than the mid-size lathes having a 12" swing.



Which lathes are you referring to? From what I've found, I can get the 1216 with the 20" extension for $1000+tax. The only 16 inch lathes I've seen that are in that range are the Grizzly/Shop Fox, which I'd rather avoid due to Reeves drive, and the Nova 1624, which doesn't have variable speed at all. There's the Key 1640 but that's over twice the price.

The way I see it, even a 10" bowl is pretty big, and if I really wanted to, I could turn a slightly larger one on the outboard side. If I choose to do that, I'll stick with blanks that are already round and not too out of balance.

[Brian Deakin]

I personally would only purchase a small number of tools and join a club It is easy to go down the path of assembling a collection of tools you rarely use

[Pat Scott]

Thompson has good steel and makes nice scrapers, but I'm not a fan of his bowl gouges because they are V-flute. I much prefer a parabolic flute because it has a more gentle nose. A V-flute can be too aggressive at times and hard to control (especially when you're still trying to learn), plus it's harder to sharpen because of the small nose. A parabolic flute can be just as aggressive if you want, but it's easier to control and won't self feed when doing the bottom of bowls. Craft Supplies sells Hamlet gouges (check out the Glenn Lucas line of tools), and as others have said Henry Taylor, Artisan, and Sorby are all good choices too. Don't forget Carter and Sons.

I disagree that you should buy cheap tools to start so you can learn how to grind. You're getting a jig so there isn't going to be that steep of a sharpening learning curve. Numerous turners have said they started out with cheap tools and quickly became frustrated with their results and almost gave up the craft. They had tear out, couldn't get a clean cut, the tool quickly dulled, etc. They spent a lot of time sharpening and were still frustrated. Everyone thinks it's them when it could be the tool. Once they got a decent gouge it was like night and day. Why invest in a good lathe, grinder, etc., but skimp on the one tool(s) that does all the actual work?

[David Walser]

Patrick -- I said a 16+" lathe -- which includes lathes that have a swing that is at least 16". Jet, Teknatool (Nova), Robust, and Oneway all currently make 16" swing lathes. (Teknatool makes a variable speed lathe with a 16" swing. Look for the Nova Galaxi DVR.) And, of course, there are lots of lathes with more than 16" swing, such as the Laguna REVO 18-36. Can you get one of these for the same price as the Laguna 1216? No. Ask how many of us still have a lathe with 12" or less of swing and I suspect you'll find that many of us bought a smaller lathe only to upgrade to a larger lathe not long after. Then, the smaller lathe got relegated to other tasks, such as being a buffing station (which is what I use mine for). Buying a smaller lathe now and a larger lathe tomorrow IS more expensive than just buying the larger lathe now.

But, you might be able to find a quality used lathe with a 16" swing (or greater) for about the same price as the 1216. (I'm retiring my Australian made Woodfast lathe. It has a 16" swing. I'm retiring it NOT because of the swing, but because it's a short bed lathe. It works great for bowls, boxes, and most other things I make. However, I cannot make a lamp base on it. Since my wife makes stained glass lamps, I am sometimes expected to make the bases. For that, I need a longer bed lathe. I'm not offering to sell you my Woodfast. I want to clean it up before it goes on Craigs list.) Good used lathes come of for sale frequently -- for a variety of reasons. They also tend to sell quickly. Keep your eyes open for a few weeks and you'll likely find something that will meet your needs for years to come.

[David Walser]

...

I disagree that you should buy cheap tools to start so you can learn how to grind. You're getting a jig so there isn't going to be that steep of a sharpening learning curve. Numerous turners have said they started out with cheap tools and quickly became frustrated with their results and almost gave up the craft. They had tear out, couldn't get a clean cut, the tool quickly dulled, etc. They spent a lot of time sharpening and were still frustrated. Everyone thinks it's them when it could be the tool. Once they got a decent gouge it was like night and day. Why invest in a good lathe, grinder, etc., but skimp on the one tool(s) that does all the actual work?

Pat -- I used to be one of those who gave the advice to get a cheap set of tools when learning to sharpen. I no longer give that advice. There are two reasons for my change in view. First, I got lucky with my first set of 'Windsor Design' tools from Harbor Freight. All the tools in the set were made of good steel and were properly tempered. So, several years later, when HF's turning tools were on sale and I had a 20% off coupon, I bought another set so I could reshape them into specialty tools. Half would not hold an edge. That would have been very frustrating when I was just starting out. I would have assumed it was my fault the tools wouldn't cut properly. It's really hard to learn how to sharpen when you're dealing with crappy steel!

Second, my first grinder was a 6" grinder with the standard gray wheels. At the time, many turners were using similar grinders with similar wheels. Now, most have at least a slow-speed grinder with A/O wheels. Many buy CBN wheels when starting. Given that, and the improved jigs we have available, learning to sharpen isn't nearly as difficult as it once was. (And, I walked to school in the snow, uphill, both ways!) With a slow-speed grinder, A/O (or CBN) wheels, and a decent jig, you're NOT going to grind an expensive tool down to a nub while learning how to sharpen!

[tom lucas]

Thompson has good steel and makes nice scrapers, but I'm not a fan of his bowl gouges because they are V-flute.

Actually, Pat, Thompson sells both v and u fluted gouges. Sometimes he is out of stock on one type or another, but he sells both plus some specialty ones too.

[John K Jordan]

...when HF's turning tools were on sale and I had a 20% off coupon, I bought another set so I could reshape them into specialty tools. Half would not hold an edge. That would have been very frustrating when I was just starting out. I would have assumed it was my fault the tools wouldn't cut properly. It's really hard to learn how to sharpen when you're dealing with crappy steel!


I keep a tub of old and used tools to give to beginners and to grind into specialty tools. Some are cheap tools. I check the hardness of each with the file test. it's surprising how many cheap tools are only hardened at the very ends, sometimes just an inch or so. Some are not hardened at all.

JKJ

[Erich Weidner]

As for the tools, there's nothing wrong with the Sorby tools you listed. But, there's little right with them either.


A couple comments in this thread about Sorby not being good. What is the issue with them?
I just bought my first turning tools yesterday, they are Sorby, as I didn't want Chinese Wood River stuff, which was the only other option at my local Woodcraft.

I haven't used them yet, so could still return them if need be.

[Mel Fulks]

Some good workmen like theirs. But many find then too soft, so I would say the issue is quality control. The ones I have
used (briefly borrowed) were all too soft.

[Thomas Canfield]

Back to lathes. Comparing the midi lathes, check the Rikon 70-220VS against the Laguna. It has a longer bed, additional weight, longer quill travel (3-1/2 vs 2-1/2"), same 1" tool rest post, controls on tail end for safer use since stand on that end away from work. I do like the speed ranges of the Laguna better than the Rikon, but have learned to work with them and normally only turn in the mid range. I feel that it is a good buy. I have had some control issues with mine that Rikon promptly took care of and sent the needed replacement controller. The added bed length and longer quill travel make using a drill chuck and bit much easier. Bed extensions are available for all the midi listed so not a factor. Turning outboard on the Laguna might be an advantage, but not a normal process and turning outboard does not allow use of tailstock for support and safety - think larger lathe to get the 16" if you really want larger diameter. I find that 12" bowls are pretty large (turn up to 20" on Powermatic 3520B) and blanks are easier to acquire. Larger, heavier lathes are much better for roughing out unbalanced stock, but patience and the slow speed will usually prevail with the midi lathe, just take longer and more beating at the slow speeds. Take a good look at the different options for turning groups to help make the decision on lathe. Buying a small lathe and then deciding to go larger later is not as big a loss as buy a large lathe and deciding to only do small things later. A small lathe has reasonable resell value so smaller loss that reselling a larger lathe and the loss. Also tools (chucks, gouges, etc) are less for the smaller lathe, but can be used on a larger lathe. Some of the large tools for a large lathe are hard to use on a small lathe. DAMHIK It is a fun hobby that can possibly pay for itself. Have fun.

[David Walser]

Eric -- I stick by my description of Sorby tools: Nothing wrong with them, little right with them either. They are a premium tool and carry a premium tool price. I just don't think they offer a premium performance. They're okay. For the price, there are others I'd prefer. A small part of that is the tempering of the M2 steel. It's not quite as hard as the temper used by other British tool makers. In theory, that should make the edge slightly less durable and slightly easier to sharpen. But, with today's jigs and grinders, that provides little if any benefit. For me, the reason I'm not a big fan is because many of their tools don't feel right in my hand. You might like their feel. If so, you'll think they are better than okay.

[Erich Weidner]

Eric -- But, with today's jigs and grinders, that provides little if any benefit. For me, the reason I'm not a big fan is because many of their tools don't feel right in my hand. You might like their feel. If so, you'll think they are better than okay.

What would you suggest instead? I still haven't used any of them so can return.
I'm eager to get started. So I might do that tomorrow, but I can still return what I don't use. I'm not at all married to the Sorby's it was the only option I could buy *now*. Ashley Iles is mostly out of stock at Tools for Working Wood, Lee Valley has Henry Taylor HSS, but not the M42 stuff.

I did also pick up one Crown Pinnacle Cryo HSS from Woodcraft, just to check out something different.

[David Walser]

If you want English tools, I would go with the Apprentice line from Craft Supplies USA or Packard line from Packard Woodworks. The Apprentice tools are made by Henry Taylor and the Packard by Hamlet. Both are a little less money (and not polished to the same high level) than their makers' branded tools. Here are links: https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/c/31/Bowl-and-Spindle-Tools (CSUSA organizes its tools by type, not brand. You'll have to do some clicking to see all the Apprentice tools.) https://www.packardwoodworks.com/tools-pkrd.html

Hope this helps.

Note: There are several made-in-USA tools available. They're more money, but most consider them to be worth it. The brands to look for are Thompson, D-Way, and Carter & Son. More links: http://thompsonlathetools.com/ https://d-waytools.com/ https://carterandsontoolworks.com/ Carter & Son sell through their website AND through woodturning retailers, such as CSUSA and Packard.

Note 2: While the made-in-USA tools are made with better steel, I don't usually recommend them for someone just starting out. The English tools are very good quality. They will last you a long time. I've been turning since 2003 and still have and use regularly tools I bought at the start that were made by Hamlet and by Henry Taylor. I also have Thompson and D-Way tools. To my mind there are three primary differences: My Thompson and D-Way tools go longer between sharpening. The steels they are made from just hold an edge better than the M2 HSS of my Hamlet and Henry Taylor tools. Second, the English brands are made for the mass market. They hit a sweet spot in shape of flute and size and shape of handle that 'fit' most turners well. The USA made tools are more specialized in that they come in a wider variety of flute shapes (ask whether turners prefer 'u', 'v', or 'parabolic' shaped flutes for the bowl gouges, and you're going to start an argument. They offer more variety in skew widths and thicknesses. The same for scrapers. Most new turners are not equipped to take advantage of such differences is design. Start with the 'generalist' tool and, after some experience (and trying out another turner's tools), you'll be better prepared to buy a Thompson 'detail spindle gouge'. Or, not. Your call.

Third, the English tools come with wooden handles. The USA made tools do not. You can buy one of their handles (not made of wood), buy someone else's handles, or you can make your own handles. Making handles from wood is a good beginning turning project. But, how are you going to turn a handle if all your turning tools are unhandled?

[Erich Weidner]

Thanks for the tips David. I'll check them out. If I can wait long enough I might even get some HT's before I break open the Sorby's. But, I guess I won't know unless I try something. Time to jump in.

[Mel Fulks]

David, real M2 is pretty good. Some who sell planer knives fill orders for M2 with a semi- high speed steel having "same
hardness as M2". I suspect the same thing is done in some tool sales. Real M2 has a chrome color ,the fake M2 looks
whiter. That used to be easy to see ,but for some years now planer knives and some tools have a lot of grind lines
showing and that obviates a formerly valuable "tell".