More on Unicorn Profile

[ken hatch]

I'm still crippling around on a bad wheel so not much is happening in the shop even sharpening is too much some days. There have been a few days where whisky and a elevated foot was all I could do. On one of the good days I did install a stitched cotton wheel on the grinder and have taken a couple of my old Freud Chrome Vanadium chisels (BTW, they were the first "good" chisels I bought from the Garret Wade catalog many years ago) and ground a Unicorn profile then buffed on the buffing wheel with green stuff.

438708

First go, David Weaver may be on to something. First it is very quick, grind a bevel on the grinder, hone a secondary with a Washita, Medium India or other quick 1000 grit or so stone. Use whatever you have handy, then maybe 15 to 30 seconds on the buffing wheel. The chisel comes out very sharp and the edge is long lasting, maybe longer lasting and sharper than off a polishing stone.

That's the good news, the process seems to work, it is very quick, and the equipment is inexpensive. That may also be the bad news. What do I do with the tens of thousands USDs I have in sharpening stones when to get a sharper, longer lasting edge all you need is a grinder with a buffing wheel, a little green stuff, and a $30 USD India stone. Also maybe a meal or two of crow.


Check out the Unicorn profile posts on Wood Central, wear your masks and stay safe,


ken

[David Eisenhauer]

Thanks for the update Ken. Which cotton wheel did you go with? Using any smear on the wheel?

[ken hatch]

Thanks for the update Ken. Which cotton wheel did you go with? Using any smear on the wheel?

David,

Just one from Amazon, I think listed as best seller which usually means cheap. Yep, a green stick from IIRC WoodCraft.

ken

[James Pallas]

Check out the carvers and knife people. Power strops and wheels all over the place. Used for all those carving tool shapes.

[Rob Luter]

When I was in high school woodshop in the '70s, we used a grinder, then a buffer to sharpen lathe tools. It left a razor sharp polished edge that would peel off the wood like it was soap.

[Jim Matthews]

The technique discussed by DW arose from buffing some carving tools and some rigorous experiments.

Short version - edge retention is longer, sharpening time shorter.

[Matt Riegerix]

At least you still got your plane irons to use on stones. Are there any downsides?

[ken hatch]

At least you still got your plane irons to use on stones. Are there any downsides?

Matt,

I'm still reading and playing but first impressions are there are no downsides. On that time will tell. The folks over on Wood Central have been working at this a lot longer than I have. Winston Chang in a reply to another SMC thread said he had spent the weekend converting his chisels which implies no downsides.

I have a feeling the stones will gather dust even for the plane irons if results hold. Whatever the JNATs sure are pretty and make a beautiful bevel and the years I've spent learning the skill to use 'em all will still be there. Maybe.

BTW, Crow in browned butter and a little garlic is really good.

ken

[Eric Rathhaus]

Matt - they've been doing it to irons as well.

[Derek Cohen]

Note that buffing an edge is different with the unicorn method and sharpening carving gouges, or sharpening per se. The unicorn edge is a slightly rounded edge - I have referred to it as a nano bevel, alghough it us rounded in shape from buffing. The aim here is not to sharpen - although the chisels get very sharp. - but the increase the cutting angle at the very edge, and thereby strengthen the edge to hold it for a longer time.

There has been some experimentation on plane blades. I reported that block plane blades work well. This had been interesting for me as cutting end grain posed no problem and, with the rounded edge at a higher cutting angle, chamfering edges was less vulnerable to tear out. Plane blades are another story. I am not comfortable with this yet - the performance is too hit-and-miss. Also, be careful with buffing the leading edge of chipbreakers. Mine at at 50 degrees. I buffed a couple, and this must have increased the angle significantly as the planes stopped cutting. They were fine when the leading edges were returned to 50 degrees.

I have not reduced primary bevels on chisels to 20 degrees (yet - we’ll see). My paring chisels remain at 25 degrees and bench and mortice chisels are 30 degrees.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winston Chang]

There are no downsides for chisels that I can see. I'm still getting a handle on the technique for plane blades.

David is satisfied with his method for (bevel-down) planes, and he mentioned that he's going to be selling off a lot of stones. Best to sell off your stones before word gets out and everyone realizes they don't need them anymore. :D

[Winston Chang]

Derek, have you found that the unicorn profile significantly benefits edge durability when planing end grain with a bevel-up plane? That's one thing I never liked about using a shooting board -- that it dulls the blade pretty quickly, especially since the damage is in one location on the blade (my shooting board isn't ramped). But if the blade lasts several times longer, then shooting regularly becomes much more appealing.

[Derek Cohen]

Winston, I compared the longevity of steel type and bevel orientation here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

and here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/MoreAboutShootingPlanesandTheirBlades.html

The bottom line is that bed angle, rather than simply cutting angle, is a central factor in bevel wear. Higher beds create greater force on the edge, and this leads to greater wear. In short, even a lower bevel angle on a bevel up shooting plane (e.g. Veritas Shooting Plane) outlasted a higher bevel angle on a bevel down shooting plane (e.g. Lie Nielsen #51).

It would be interesting to redo this with the unicorn profile, but it probably would not alter the results. What it may do is improve longevity of the edge. The brief experience to date profiling the Veritas blade has demonstrated that it cuts as well as the unprofiled edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matt Riegerix]

Pretty exciting stuff. Anyone have recommendations for a buffing wheel for a Rikon 80-805 slow speed grinder?

[Winston Chang]

Winston, I compared the longevity of steel type and bevel orientation here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/LVShootingPlane.html

and here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/MoreAboutShootingPlanesandTheirBlades.html

The bottom line is that bed angle, rather than simply cutting angle, is a central factor in bevel wear. Higher beds create greater force on the edge, and this leads to greater wear. In short, even a lower bevel angle on a bevel up shooting plane (e.g. Veritas Shooting Plane) outlasted a higher bevel angle on a bevel down shooting plane (e.g. Lie Nielsen #51).

It would be interesting to redo this with the unicorn profile, but it probably would not alter the results. What it may do is improve longevity of the edge. The brief experience to date profiling the Veritas blade has demonstrated that it cuts as well as the unprofiled edge.


Thanks for those articles. I had seen them a while back but it's good to see them again.

My question was about the durability of a buffed edge when shooting with a bevel-up plane. (I'm not questioning your conclusions about bedding angle and edge damage.) My hope is that the unicorn profile in this situation can greatly increase edge durability, as it does for chisels used for chopping.

In the close-up pictures you have of the blades, they all appear to have some degree of chipping. From the blade's point of view, shooting end grain with a bevel-up plane is similar to chopping across the grain with a chisel. We know from testing that buffing can effectively eliminate chipping for chisels doing chopping. It seems likely to me that buffing could also eliminate chipping for a plane used for shooting. If there's no chipping, then I'd expect the blade to be able to keep cutting longer, and gradually become more difficult as the edge gets rounded by abrasion.

Note that I'm specifically talking about bevel-up planes. Buffing the blade for these planes increases the cutting angle, but hopefully with a small enough nanobevel that there's not an appreciable increase in resistance. With a bevel-up plane, the tiny nanobevel could be 45 degrees or even higher, which would result in a very durable edge. With a bevel-down plane, if you buff the blade so that it has a 45-degree nanobevel, there will be clearance problems.

Hm, now that I think of it, maybe this is something that I should test out.

[Derek Cohen]

Pretty exciting stuff. Anyone have recommendations for a buffing wheel for a Rikon 80-805 slow speed grinder?

Matt, I have a 1" wide stitched wheel on the left of this half-speed 8" grinder ...

https://i.postimg.cc/4xb204gH/5.jpg


The right side has now been replaced with a 2" wide stitched wheel. Both wheels are lightly touched with LV green compound.

So far, I find the 1" wide wheel the more useful.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

Search : Dico buffing wheel.

It works for me and was less than ten bucks.

[george wilson]

I NEVER,EVER buff the edge on a wheel. It rounds the cutting edge very easily. Some here use a piece of MDF with green compound on it. That is a good method which does not bugger up your edge. That is the method I use and recommend.

[Winston Chang]

I NEVER,EVER buff the edge on a wheel. It rounds the cutting edge very easily. Some here use a piece of MDF with green compound on it. That is a good method which does not bugger up your edge. That is the method I use and recommend.

The goal of the buffer is to create a very small, very steep microbevel. It's not rounding the edge, but it is rounding the part of the blade right up to the edge. Before actually testing it out, I had assumed that doing such a thing would cause problems -- although I'm not sure exactly what kind of problem I expected. After testing it, I found that the assumption was wrong.

The idea came from David Weaver over at WoodCentral, and there's a mountain of discussion about it there. I don't know o anyone who has tried it who would disagree that it creates an extremely sharp and much more durable edge.

I know that me saying stuff about it may not be convincing, so here's the video I made about it:
https://vimeo.com/444232624

David made a longer one here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7FdOh6S9s

And I suggest trying it out.

[Frederick Skelly]

The goal of the buffer is to create a very small, very steep microbevel. It's not rounding the edge, but it is rounding the part of the blade right up to the edge. Before actually testing it out, I had assumed that doing such a thing would cause problems -- although I'm not sure exactly what kind of problem I expected. After testing it, I found that the assumption was wrong.

The idea came from David Weaver over at WoodCentral, and there's a mountain of discussion about it there. I don't know o anyone who has tried it who would disagree that it creates an extremely sharp and much more durable edge.

I know that me saying stuff about it may not be convincing, so here's the video I made about it:
https://vimeo.com/444232624

David made a longer one here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7FdOh6S9s

And I suggest trying it out.

Hi George,
If I remember correctly, aren't you and David friends from when he used to hang out here? I used to enjoy reading the discussions between you. So I'd love to hear what you think about the videos that David and Winston made (linked above). Your expertise would add a lot to the discussion Sir.

I'm very glad to see you back online and posting again!

Fred

[Derek Cohen]

I NEVER,EVER buff the edge on a wheel. It rounds the cutting edge very easily. Some here use a piece of MDF with green compound on it. That is a good method which does not bugger up your edge. That is the method I use and recommend.

George my dear friend ... it is Wonderful to see you back again! :) Being able to type tells me that you are doing somewhat better.

Your comments about buffing edges would find universal agreement if ... and big "if" ... this process involved a hard wheel, such as the leather wheels on the Tormek - I could never get along with those ... so slow and so ineffective. One miscue and the edge was dubbed.

Like you, I have used LV green compound on planed hardwood as my strop. No give at all.

However ... the "Unicorn profile" is something different from all this. Has David not discussed this with you? Basically, it involved using a soft wheel to add a nano (my term) tertiary bevel. The aim here is not to get the edge sharper, but to create a miniscule high tertiary bevel (say, 45 degrees) to beef up the edge and make it more durable. In practice this does not make the edge duller - it retains the sharpness, but extends the life of the edge.

Here is a picture taken by Winston (amazing work, Winston!) ...

http://www.woodcentral.com/webbbs/media/handtools/494/494958_1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

A couple or three weeks ago I would have been in George's camp. Strop off the Arkansas stones but with care and no strop when using JNATs. Strange how a few videos, some posts on a forum, and a little experiment can change beliefs developed over many years. Still not 100% but I expect it is not far off.

I sure have a bunch of beautiful JNATs and hard Arkansas stones that may just gather dust in the future. That is the bad news, the good it could save a ton of money.

ken

[steven c newman]

Sooo, not only would I need to buy that cotton wheel...but, I would also need to buy another grinder...as the current one is rather busy...coarse wheel on one side, wire wheel on the other...plus another stick or three of the "compound" to smear on that wheel?

Currently? I have an old leather belt as my strop. At one time, it was my tool bag work belt....until I hung that rig up.

[ken hatch]

Sooo, not only would I need to buy that cotton wheel...but, I would also need to buy another grinder...as the current one is rather busy...coarse wheel on one side, wire wheel on the other...plus another stick or three of the "compound" to smear on that wheel?

Currently? I have an old leather belt as my strop. At one time, it was my tool bag work belt....until I hung that rig up.

Steve,

Watch Winston Chang's video, he uses a cordless drill and a $10 USD cotton wheel from Home Depot that comes with compound. Not a lot to invest if you want to investigate.

ken

[Jerome Andrieux]

It rounds the cutting edge very easily.

My guess is that someone will soon come with a sophisticated eclipse-like guide, with elliptic wheels or shims to provide the finest elliptic pico bevel on very fine and expensive stones :)

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The goal of the buffer is to create a very small, very steep microbevel. It's not rounding the edge, but it is rounding the part of the blade right up to the edge. Before actually testing it out, I had assumed that doing such a thing would cause problems -- although I'm not sure exactly what kind of problem I expected. After testing it, I found that the assumption was wrong.

The idea came from David Weaver over at WoodCentral, and there's a mountain of discussion about it there. I don't know o anyone who has tried it who would disagree that it creates an extremely sharp and much more durable edge.

I know that me saying stuff about it may not be convincing, so here's the video I made about it:
https://vimeo.com/444232624

David made a longer one here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7FdOh6S9s

And I suggest trying it out.

Winston thanks for that video. Well done with those photos.

[Curt Putnam]

A couple or three weeks ago I would have been in George's camp. Strop off the Arkansas stones but with care and no strop when using JNATs. Strange how a few videos, some posts on a forum, and a little experiment can change beliefs developed over many years. Still not 100% but I expect it is not far off.

I sure have a bunch of beautiful JNATs and hard Arkansas stones that may just gather dust in the future. That is the bad news, the good it could save a ton of money.

ken

I am finding it very interesting t observe the ho-hum reaction of most folks. It is not as though there is another revolution going on in the world of honing. A couple strokes on a 1200 diamond plate (no oil or water required) and a few secinds on the buffing wheel and one is back to work with an uber sharp, durable edge. Ho-hum indeed,

[Erich Weidner]

I am finding it very interesting t observe the ho-hum reaction of most folks. It is not as though there is another revolution going on in the world of honing. A couple strokes on a 1200 diamond plate (no oil or water required) and a few secinds on the buffing wheel and one is back to work with an uber sharp, durable edge. Ho-hum indeed,


A lot of people are hide bound. (I am, and I barely have many hours invested in sharpening compared to most folks here.)

I think a lot of modern hand tool philosophy also is that we've lost more to time than we've advanced with our modern technologies. Said another way, we woodworkers largely abandoned traditional techniques and hand tools, and replaced much of the kit with circular saws, power tools, etc. so there was a wide skill gap between the last generation of woodworkers who used hand tools day-in and day-out, and the modern day neanderthal where we have to sort of relearn the lessons any craftsman of the early 20th century would not consider worth writing down as it was "common knowledge".

So "nothing new under the sun" naturally makes one skeptical that we've actually found a new vastly better way to sharpen vs the slow evolution of hundreds of years of 100% hand tool craftsman.

Anyway, I'm not at all saying this method doesn't work and isn't a quantum leap in sharpening. Just waxing the philosophical as to why folks would be doubters and nay-sayers. (At least initially). I don't know, as I haven't tried it yet, and am still trying to get myself to use just three water stones when sharpening vs. the whole progression I have. It's tradition (for me). (And stupidly, I've so little sharpening time under my belt that it is silly that I am having trouble trying something outside of my habit).


PS Also, if someone did this back in the day they'd probably be murdered in the night by the guilds and sharpening stone Illuminati. :P

[Andrew Hughes]

Sharpening with a buffing wheel isn’t nothing new. It is in fact how I sharpen my carving tools it produces a edge with a nice curve so I can scoop out wood in tight spaces. The steel in carving tools is soft so that’s a plus.
Straight edge tools like a plane blade or chisels are very simple to sharpen. I use a hard leather with red Jewelers if I feel like taking the straight edge further then my polishing stone.
The buffer I have will make a sharp shiny blunt edge. It might be good for some of the harder woods but not so much with softer woods.
The question I ask myself why is David still stuck on plane blades and chisels I thought he would be on the the next thing.
Didn’t he mastered sharpening his tools when he was a member here.
Good Luck everyone

[Derek Cohen]

Sharpening with a buffing wheel isn’t nothing new. It is in fact how I sharpen my carving tools it produces a edge with a nice curve so I can scoop out wood in tight spaces. The steel in carving tools is soft so that’s a plus.
Straight edge tools like a plane blade or chisels are very simple to sharpen. I use a hard leather with red Jewelers if I feel like taking the straight edge further then my polishing stone.
The buffer I have will make a sharp shiny blunt edge. It might be good for some of the harder woods but not so much with softer woods.
The question I ask myself why is David still stuck on plane blades and chisels I thought he would be on the the next thing.
Didn’t he mastered sharpening his tools when he was a member here.
Good Luck everyone

Andrew

This is not the power buffing as with carving chisels, using hard leather on wheels. This is also not the buffing of the edge to increase the sharpness of a bench chisel (however, a by-product of the method also leads to sharp edges). What it involves is a nano rounded bevel at the edge of the blade. See the photo below, which I am reposting from a post above.

http://www.woodcentral.com/webbbs/media/handtools/494/494958_1.jpg

This rounded nano bevel strengthens the edge as the very tip may now be about 45 degrees. However, since the chisel bevel remains at a low angle, it remains capable of penetrating the wood as if the edge was the same lower cutting angle.

A final point, although David has recommended it, the primary bevel does not need to be ground back to 20 degrees. I have been doing the unicorn edge on 25- and 30-degree bevels as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kevin Adams]

Fascinating discussion, thank you!

So just so I am clear...a soft (inexpensive) cotton wheel is better than a hard felt wheel? I have the latter now (made in France it says, from LV) and I am better off getting a soft cotton wheel from HD or Amazon? My grinder is a regular speed 6” Craftsman model from years ago btw.

Thanks again.
Kevin

[ken hatch]

Fascinating discussion, thank you!

So just so I am clear...a soft (inexpensive) cotton wheel is better than a hard felt wheel? I have the latter now (made in France it says, from LV) and I am better off getting a soft cotton wheel from HD or Amazon? My grinder is a regular speed 6” Craftsman model from years ago btw.

Thanks again.
Kevin

Kevin,

The folks that have tried hard wheels say it is easy to ruin an edge, that you are better off with a soft cotton wheels.

ken

[Clifford McGuire]

I've waded through much of the discussion on Wood Central....or tried to.

Just for clarification, the instructions have you go right from a 1000 grit stone to cotton buffing wheel. Would any steps inserted in between (additional honing) be considered unnecessary? Or detrimental to the process.?

[ken hatch]

I've waded through much of the discussion on Wood Central....or tried to.

Just for clarification, the instructions have you go right from a 1000 grit stone to cotton buffing wheel. Would any steps inserted in between (additional honing) be considered unnecessary? Or detrimental to the process.?

Clifford,

Unnecessary. The goal of sharpening Unicorn or other ways is to have a strong and smooth cutting edge. The smoothness behind the cutting edge, within reason, makes little difference. Using a progression of stones is a waste of time, negating one of the reasons to use the Unicorn process.

ken

[Kevin Adams]

Kevin,

The folks that have tried hard wheels say it is easy to ruin an edge, that you are better off with a soft cotton wheels.

ken

Thanks, Ken, I found this one on Amazon and will give it a go:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B086JXZTYK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3OOZSPFZX1YUE&psc=1

Anyone try it on Japanese chisels or is that total sacrilege?!

Kevin

[Nicholas Lawrence]

What is the compound they are using on it? I have a green crayon from Lee Valley. Is that finer than what they are doing, coarser, or am I completely misunderstanding?

[ken hatch]

Thanks, Ken, I found this one on Amazon and will give it a go:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B086JXZTYK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3OOZSPFZX1YUE&psc=1

Anyone try it on Japanese chisels or is that total sacrilege?!

Kevin


Kevin,

LOL, IIRC David has used it on Japanese chisels and it worked well. The only problem is after having learned to keep a flat bevel and preserve the definition between the soft iron and the hard steel it would seem to be a total sacrilege:p. But rumor has it that So does the same with the chisels he sharpens for clients.

I wouldn't worry about it.

ken

[ken hatch]

What is the compound they are using on it? I have a green crayon from Lee Valley. Is that finer than what they are doing, coarser, or am I completely misunderstanding?

Nicholas,

Working from memory and I'm an OF so memory sucks but I think they are using 0.5 micron or maybe less compound on the buffing wheel. Also IIRC LV "Green Stuff" is listed as 0.5 microns.

ken

[ken hatch]

Thanks, Ken, I found this one on Amazon and will give it a go:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B086JXZTYK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3OOZSPFZX1YUE&psc=1

Anyone try it on Japanese chisels or is that total sacrilege?!

Kevin

Kevin,

I just looked at the buffing wheel from Amazon and could not find the grit it is charged with. IIRC you want a compound that is 0.5 microns or less.

ken

[Winston Chang]

What is the compound they are using on it? I have a green crayon from Lee Valley. Is that finer than what they are doing, coarser, or am I completely misunderstanding?

I'm using the stick from the Ryobi kit, which I think is probably about 1 micron. I also have used 1-micron green compound from McMaster-Carr, and it works well. David uses 5-micron yellow compound from McMaster-Carr, and he also gets good results.

More information about equipment here: https://chisel-test.netlify.app/#equipment

[Jim Koepke]

I NEVER,EVER buff the edge on a wheel. It rounds the cutting edge very easily. Some here use a piece of MDF with green compound on it. That is a good method which does not bugger up your edge. That is the method I use and recommend.

Please notice the nuance of the language used, "It rounds the cutting edge very easily."

George does not say it always rounds the edge.

Many years ago one of my supervisors would lament about the "American mind" thinking if a little was good twice as much is twice as good.

It is the same with stropping on leather or a soft buffing wheel. With care either can improve the edge on a tool up to a point. With carelessness either can round the edge. The degree of rounding depends on the degree of carelessness.

So far my experiments have been 3 for 4. Though today's attempt on a gouge may not be a real test because they have a geometry that works well with a slightly rounded edge. The blade that needed to be reworked may have been left too long under the buffing wheel.

The other test on this may be time. How many times can honing on one coarse stone followed by buffing can an edge take before it needs to be reground?

So in reality, it is very easy to round over the cutting edge if one doesn't take care. This can also happen on a flat leather strop. That is known from first hand experience.

Too bad this method came to light after some heavy mortise chopping on a project. It would have been a possible test of the Unicorn edge to see if there was any great benefit. Though the edges on the chisels used seemed to hold up rather well with standard sharpening & stropping.

438926

Mortising is pretty much cutting across end grain. The chisel is a 3/4" flat sided chisel. Notice the full shavings the chisel is making across the end grain with help from a mallet. This was done using the 'riding the bevel' method.

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

What is the compound they are using on it? I have a green crayon from Lee Valley. Is that finer than what they are doing, coarser, or am I completely misunderstanding?
David has been using 5 micron stuff because, I believe, it is cheap. The green stuff from Lee Valley works just fine according to my limited testing.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Kevin,

I just looked at the buffing wheel from Amazon and could not find the grit it is charged with. IIRC you want a compound that is 0.5 microns or less.

ken

I think that David was clear that he had used a larger grit (like say 5 micron), but I also think that other tests show that smaller works just fine. I think that the other video on Vimeo he used the white which I think is about 1 micron. I don't think that it matters much, but right about now, my brain is mush (been working long hours).

[ken hatch]

I think that David was clear that he had used a larger grit (like say 5 micron), but I also think that other tests show that smaller works just fine. I think that the other video on Vimeo he used the white which I think is about 1 micron. I don't think that it matters much, but right about now, my brain is mush (been working long hours).

Andrew,

My guess is there is a lot of leeway. Wish I had an excuse like long hours at work for mush brain, although this week has been on the back side of the clock and that usually cost 10 or so IQ points. Whatever mine is just natural :o.

Good luck with your playing, let us know what you find out. I should be posting photos soon.

ken

[Derek Cohen]

I use the 0.5 micron LV green compound because I have a few sticks of it. David uses a 5.0 micron stick of something or other because it cuts faster and that is what he has. I think that the amount of the buffing process determines the final edge. Paul Sellers does about 50 strokes to get what I might with 5 on a waterstone. Winston needs to hold the chisel to the strop longer on his drill-driven set up than I do, but I am using a half speed bench grinder. David gets to use a coarser grit on a full speed machine.

With regard Japanese chisels, I have not seen a reason to risk my good chisels yet. They are honed at 30 degrees and hold a great edge. The aim of the unicorn bevel is to create longevity (although it can also create sharpness quickly). I did, however, hone a pair of Japanese mortice chisels on the buffer, and this was on a 30 degree bevel. The edge sharpened up quite significantly, but I cannot comment yet on longevity.

https://i.postimg.cc/Qt3LkjPM/Blades8.jpg

Fujikawa mortice chisel paring Jacaranda.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Eisenhauer]

To repeat what Derek and a couple of others have said. The initial testing by David Weaver, and then confirmed by others, revealed that the 1000 grit grinding- cotton wheel buffing technique resulted in a longer lasting edge in mortising chisels. It also revealed that inexpensive, lesser quality chisels could be made to perform as well as more expensive ($75 - $100 ea) chisels. For some of the earlier explorers of the technique, the potential for the use of less expensive chisels for chopping was probably the first gain noted by the use of the technique. At this time, the technique is more about a much shorter sharpening time plus a longer lasting edge rather than creating a higher level of sharpness. I think David started somewhere back in the experiment by counting the number of "chops" it took to accomplish a defined length of "chopped" material with different chisels or something like that, and the technique has evolved as others are jumping in to help test different paths the experiment is taking. Photos of chisel tips before/after sharpening/buffing and "chopping" have been provided for folks to see what is taking place. The time saving of having a (as David suggests) machine ground 20* bevel (that lasts through several following individual sharpening sessions), then hand sharpening a micro bevel at the tip of the chisel with a 1000# stone and finishing up by polishing with a buffer for 5-20 sec. is probably much quicker than many of us are doing now. The initial machine grinding (at whatever bevel angle) does not need to be done every time.

[ken hatch]

To repeat what Derek and a couple of others have said. The initial testing by David Weaver, and then confirmed by others, revealed that the 1000 grit grinding- cotton wheel buffing technique resulted in a longer lasting edge in mortising chisels. It also revealed that inexpensive, lesser quality chisels could be made to perform as well as more expensive ($75 - $100 ea) chisels. For some of the earlier explorers of the technique, the potential for the use of less expensive chisels for chopping was probably the first gain noted by the use of the technique. At this time, the technique is more about a much shorter sharpening time plus a longer lasting edge rather than creating a higher level of sharpness. I think David started somewhere back in the experiment by counting the number of "chops" it took to accomplish a defined length of "chopped" material with different chisels or something like that, and the technique has evolved as others are jumping in to help test different paths the experiment is taking. Photos of chisel tips before/after sharpening/buffing and "chopping" have been provided for folks to see what is taking place. The time saving of having a (as David suggests) machine ground 20* bevel (that lasts through several following individual sharpening sessions), then hand sharpening a micro bevel at the tip of the chisel with a 1000# stone and finishing up by polishing with a buffer for 5-20 sec. is probably much quicker than many of us are doing now. The initial machine grinding (at whatever bevel angle) does not need to be done every time.

David,

And cheaper :p. Not so much using cheaper chisels but the thousands of dollars in stones that may no longer be needed or used.

Thanks, a good summery of where we are.

ken

[Erich Weidner]

To repeat what Derek and a couple of others have said. The initial testing by David Weaver, and then confirmed by others, revealed that the 1000 grit grinding- cotton wheel buffing technique resulted in a longer lasting edge in mortising chisels. It also revealed that inexpensive, lesser quality chisels could be made to perform as well as more expensive ($75 - $100 ea) chisels.

This is still my question(s). Lesser quality chisels performing as well as more premium chisels... meaning premium chisels sharpened just on stones (no unicorn buffing)? What happens to a premium chisel with the unicorn buff? Exact same as chepo chisel? Or equally x-fold better than traditionally/stone sharpened?

Stated another way, are cheapo chisels unicorned exactly the same as a PM-V11 chisel unicorned?

[Tim Best]

Hi Erich,

Winston and David (in videos and other forums) showed clearly I think that an unicorned inexpensive chisel would perform at least as well as more expensive brands that were also unicorned. From my own modest experiments, I took some cheap chisels that I could never really finesse an edge onto and tested them with the unicorn edge. I was impressed. Winston, David, and many others have reported similar results. The buffed edge holds up extremely well especially for chopping. I didn’t not notice any real drop in performance going through oak or poplar.

[Derek Cohen]

This is still my question(s). Lesser quality chisels performing as well as more premium chisels... meaning premium chisels sharpened just on stones (no unicorn buffing)? What happens to a premium chisel with the unicorn buff? Exact same as chepo chisel? Or equally x-fold better than traditionally/stone sharpened?

Stated another way, are cheapo chisels unicorned exactly the same as a PM-V11 chisel unicorned?

Erich, I would venture that the law of diminishing returns applies. That is, the benefits of the unicorn profile is best observed on a cheap or poorer edge-holding blade, with less benefits seen in the premium blade. I posted early on my success in buffing a 20 degree bevel on a set of boxwood Marples. These are wonderfully light in the hand, but held an edge for exactly 1.5 shavings. Post-buffing, the edge was excellent. I was not looking to see exactly how long, but there were very significant gains. I have not attempted to buff Veritas to the unicorn profile (largely because the edge-holding is excellent anyway), but have buffed to hone a dulling edge, and that did leave a superior sharpness.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Eisenhauer]

There is a David W video on You Tube that shows him sharpening and buffing a Sorby chisel. The actual work starts after the :31 min mark when he sharpens a chisel on a stone then buffs it afterwards. I did not watch the entire video (just fast forwarded to a sharpening sequence) or listen to any of the video (due to some dewatering fans roaring away in my house to get rid of a plumbing leak moisture), but from reading lots of the discussion of the technique, this must be what the discussion is about.

Erich, from what I remember reading (lots and lots of discussion to wade through) your question was asked during the earlier stages of the buffing experimentation. I think what I read was that the PM 11 stuff had not yet been tested yet, but it was believed that the PM 11 chisel would continue to be a superior chisel, albeit perhaps not quite as head and shoulders above the cheaper models as before. If you need a definitive answer, please don't count on my memory, as there was (is) lots and lots of stuff to review over several discussions. Perhaps Winston, Derek or others will respond.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7FdOh6S9s

[Erich Weidner]

Hi Erich,

Winston and David (in videos and other forums) showed clearly I think that an unicorned inexpensive chisel would perform at least as well as more expensive brands that were also unicorned.

So, the conclusion is that more expensive brands/better steels are now obsolete as cheap chisels with relatively garbage steel unicorned perform just as well as premium chisels?

I'm not trying to be snarky, but my soul hurts somehow... Also, it just doesn't make sense to me. If the steel doesn't hold an edge as well with traditional sharpening, why would it hold an edge better with the unicorn buff (vs. better steel)? I have no education in metallurgy, so I might just be wasting folks time. I'd love to see something like Derek's dovetail durability testing I read on his site with unicorned stuff vs. not.

Edit: At least two other responses appeared while I was typing the above masterwork post. :) So, sorry if this post is out of date.

[David Bassett]

This is still my question(s). Lesser quality chisels performing as well as more premium chisels... meaning premium chisels sharpened just on stones (no unicorn buffing)? What happens to a premium chisel with the unicorn buff? Exact same as chepo chisel? Or equally x-fold better than traditionally/stone sharpened?

Stated another way, are cheapo chisels unicorned exactly the same as a PM-V11 chisel unicorned?

Derek's diminishing returns summarizes what I understood David Weaver to say about his tests. PM-V11 improved, some, with the Unicorn treatment. Cheapie improved, a lot, with the Unicorn treatment. But it only narrowed the gap, PM-V11 was still better than the cheapie. Note the PM-V11 doesn't grind, hone, or buff as quickly so YMMV for overall efficiency depending on your usage.

[David Eisenhauer]

The thinking is that the buffing technique reshapes the geometry (creates a very, very tiny 45* micro bevel?) at the very tip edge of the chisel so that the factors that cause a lesser quality steel chisel to fold quicker than a chisel with better steel are mitigated sufficiently to show a marked improvement in the lesser quality steel chisel's performance. David W did some chopping tests at the beginning of the experiment to establish some base lines and you may wish to review that for more info.

[Jim Koepke]

So, the conclusion is that more expensive brands/better steels are now obsolete as cheap chisels with relatively garbage steel unicorned perform just as well as premium chisels?

... Also, it just doesn't make sense to me. If the steel doesn't hold an edge as well with traditional sharpening, why would it hold an edge better with the unicorn buff (vs. better steel)?


The thinking is that the buffing technique reshapes the geometry (creates a very, very tiny 45* micro bevel?) at the very tip edge of the chisel so that the factors that cause a lesser quality steel chisel to fold quicker than a chisel with better steel are mitigated sufficiently to show a marked improvement in the lesser quality steel chisel's performance.

The close up image of the unicorn edge showed smooth steel. Before that the edge was very rough with the lines from the abrasive. These little fissures may be fracture inducing as the edge does its work. A slight increase in the edge angel (added micro bevel) may also be adding to the edge's longevity.

jtk

[Winston Chang]

This is still my question(s). Lesser quality chisels performing as well as more premium chisels... meaning premium chisels sharpened just on stones (no unicorn buffing)? What happens to a premium chisel with the unicorn buff? Exact same as chepo chisel? Or equally x-fold better than traditionally/stone sharpened?

Stated another way, are cheapo chisels unicorned exactly the same as a PM-V11 chisel unicorned?

I think I answered this elsewhere on the forum, but I tested both the Buck Bros and Veritas PM-V11 chisels, each of them flat-honed and buffed. (In my video, I didn't do the buffed PM-V11 chisel.) The results are here:
https://chisel-test.netlify.app/

Short version: the buffed Buck Bros and Veritas chisels both had essentially no visible damage at the end of the test, in which they chopped off 20 1/16"-thick slices of a piece of maple. In both cases, even though they looked undamaged, the chisels felt slightly less sharp at the end. I didn't do any more chopping with the chisels -- I felt that I'd have to do a LOT more chopping to see any visible damage, and it didn't seem worth it.

I'm not a metallurgist, but I suspect that the buffed Veritas wouldn't hold up a huge amount longer than the Buck Bros chisel. For both of them, the chopping is not exerting enough force on the metal to cause any folding or chipping (at a scale visible with the microscope), and so I suspect that the only cause of dulling would be abrasion. PM-V11 probably has better abrasion resistance than whatever inexpensive steel is used in the Buck Bros, but I doubt it would hold up, say, 3x longer. This is just speculation, though.

For me personally, I no longer feel the need to search for chisels with super steel. It's hard for me to justify spending another $100 on a Veritas chisel.

I should mention, though, that buffing won't turn junk chisels into gems. Out of curiosity, I got a set of very cheap chrome-manganese chisels on Amazon (4 for $10) that look like the Aldi chisels, and they were way too soft. Even with buffing, the edge had significant visible damage after paring about 6" of pine end grain. The Buck Bros chisels are much, much better.

[Kevin Adams]

Thanks again, for all the contributions here and over at WC. Derek, my favorite Imai bench chisels came with about a 32 degree bevel and that’s pretty much where I’ve kept them. I do add 1-2 degree tiniest of tiny micro bevel (like 2-3 strokes) to make sure I’ve gotten right to the edge with the flat bevel. I’m sure a lot of folks could make my tools sharper.

Funny, all this talk and tests brings me back to the first Windsor chair class I took over 20 years ago. It was from a crusty Vermont craftsman who worked in a barn. He had the rattiest tools, looked awful, and I showed up with my fancy stuff like a city boy (which I’m not). I still remember watching him work, how he moved, and when a tool wasn’t working quite right, how quickly he would turn, touch to his buffer, and back to work. I remember him saying something like “the ‘experts’ will tell you this messes up the geometry, but I don’t have time for that talk...I know my tools cut and that’s what’s important when you make a living at this.” When his chisels got a little too far gone, he quickly hit the bevel on an old stone or even a piece a sandpaper right on his bench.

Thanks again, I look forward to trying this out.

Kevin

[Derek Cohen]

Kevin, I have owned a 10" Tormek for about 10 years. Probably have not used it in 5 years after moving to a CBN wheel. The Tormek's hard leather strop was the reason that Tormek refer to the machine as a "sharpening system". One is meant to go from a 220 grit wheel, to a refined wheel at 1000 grit, and then strop the bevel on the leather wheel, which is impregnated with compound. I could never get it to create an edge even remotely close to that off a fine waterstone.

Today I was doing some work around the house. I have a couple of chisels handy for rough work. I grabbed one - 30 degree bevel and M4 steel (that is very tough stuff) - and held the bevel to the buffer, this time just with the intention of buffing the existing bevel face. It is quite easy to align the edge of the wheel with the bevel as mine are honed directly on a hollow grind. In about 5 seconds the edge was razor sharp. At speed, this forgiving, soft stitched linen strop leaves the slow, hard leather strop for dead.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Allen1010]

Super interesting- thanks to all who posted. Does grinder speed matter? I have 3,650RPM do I need to get half speed version? What about grinding primary bevel angle to 20 degrees- optional or required?
Thanks, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, grinder speed does matter. Ultimately it is a balance between speed, the hardness/softness of the buffer, and the cutting level of the compound used. Add to this the amount of time the blade is held against the buffer ... and, of course, the angle. All this makes it sound complicated, but it is not. It is something one sets up one time and adjusts to.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Mike, grinder speed does matter. Ultimately it is a balance between speed, the hardness/softness of the buffer, and the cutting level of the compound used. Add to this the amount of time the blade is held against the buffer ... and, of course, the angle. All this makes it sound complicated, but it is not. It is something one sets up one time and adjusts to.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It feels as if a resonating voice is saying, "Use the Force Luke."

Sharpening at times seems almost a mystical ritual.

Creating a Unicorn edge may mystically make a half parabola that spreads the stress angles in a way to give the edge more lasting power.

Time for someone to break out an old calculus book.

jtk

[Michael J Evans]

I have a feeling I should invest in rikon... Their grinder sales are about to go way up.

[Curt Putnam]

I have a feeling I should invest in rikon... Their grinder sales are about to go way up.
Just did - from Acme Tool @ $99.99. Got here faster than the cotton wheel from Amazon.

[ken hatch]

Just did - from Acme Tool @ $99.99. Got here faster than the cotton wheel from Amazon.

Curt,

Put a CBN wheel on one end and the cotton wheel on the other. Like Derek I have a Tormek BGM-100 on the grinding side, that and a medium grit stone and you are set.

ken

[Curt Putnam]

Curt,

Put a CBN wheel on one end and the cotton wheel on the other. Like Derek I have a Tormek BGM-100 on the grinding side, that and a medium grit stone and you are set.

ken
Hi Ken,
Yes Derek was my inspiration. Been think about a grinder for a couple years now and the unicorn method caused me to jump. So now I have the Rikon equipped with a 1" Spartan CBN wheel (180 grit) and a 1" cotton wheel loaded with green compound. The BGM-100 is mounted and got tested with the SE-76 (chisel holder) this AM (temps hit triple digits by 11).

Question: The SE-76 is not going to work with my Marex mortise chisels. Got a jig recommendation?

[ken hatch]

Hi Ken,
Yes Derek was my inspiration. Been think about a grinder for a couple years now and the unicorn method caused me to jump. So now I have the Rikon equipped with a 1" Spartan CBN wheel (180 grit) and a 1" cotton wheel loaded with green compound. The BGM-100 is mounted and got tested with the SE-76 (chisel holder) this AM (temps hit triple digits by 11).

Question: The SE-76 is not going to work with my Marex mortise chisels. Got a jig recommendation?

Curt,

I know how it is, my truck thermometer showed 112F on my drive home from work today.

I haven't tried it on your mortise chisels but I have used the Tormek SVS-32 to hold odd shaped chisels. It is not precise like the SE-76 but it can sometimes work.

ken

[Daniel Culotta]

Trying to keep up with this and the other threads, and excited to try this soon. Last I read it sounded like the unicorn method didn't have as profound results on plane blades as it did on chisels. Is that still the consensus? Want to make sure I'm not wasting time trying it on plane irons if others have got mediocre or negative results there.

[Jim Koepke]

Trying to keep up with this and the other threads, and excited to try this soon. Last I read it sounded like the unicorn method didn't have as profound results on plane blades as it did on chisels. Is that still the consensus? Want to make sure I'm not wasting time trying it on plane irons if others have got mediocre or negative results there.

Daniel, On one of my plane blades given the unicorn treatment it was able to take a very fine shaving. It was thinner than the shavings this plane usually makes with a simple flat bevel. The plane has not been used much since then. So no report on edge longevity or the next time it needs sharpening.

My reluctance toward the unicorn technique is consideration of what will need to be done the next time sharpening is needed.

Will a simple return to the buffing wheel be enough to restore an edge?

How long will this work before the bevel has to be returned to flat bevel or reground.

What makes me even more curious is if this is really "something new" or did woodworkers discover this technique years ago and decide working on their stones and stropping was preferred in the long run?

It appears there are carvers who use buffing wheels on carving tools. Surely this approach was shared with non-carvers.

So why are there no magazine articles or other mention of the technique?

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Last I read it sounded like the unicorn method didn't have as profound results on plane blades as it did on chisels. Is that still the consensus?


Daniel, David reports success with bevel down planes. He shows evidence of very fine shavings. I began with bevel up block planes and had success. This has been replicated by others. We are all moving slowly, via experimentation, to understanding the dynamics of adding a unicorn profile.

I have not found this as easy to do on BD and BU plane blades as simple block plane blades. Block planes are like chisels in that they are honed on the straight, and the surface quality is not the main area of interest; being sharp and holding this is most relevant.

The success of a bench plane, whether BD or BU, lies in the surface quality. The issue (for me) when unicorning a plane blade is that a high nano bevel can cause the BD plane to run out of clearance, while a high nano bevel on a BU plane can like using a scraper (lots of resistance). The other factor is creating the unicorn on a camber. David says he does it, while I have experienced the camber being exaggerated (blade cuts more in the centre), which is likely down to technique.

One other area to watch out for with planes is the chipbreaker. It seems to be reasonable to buff the leading edge. However, rounded leading edge is one thing (good), but a nano bevel is likely to end up with a seriously high leading edge angle, and I have experienced the plane refusing to cut.


It appears there are carvers who use buffing wheels on carving tools. Surely this approach was shared with non-carvers.

So why are there no magazine articles or other mention of the technique?

Jim, as I have mentioned before, a carver is likely to be buffing the bevel to polish it to a high level of sharpness. To do this, the bevel angle is maintained. The unicorn bevel is not aimed at sharpness, per se, but to improving edge holding. Sharpness is a bye product (I buff with the angle of the buff - which sharpens - and then increase the buffing angle, which creates the unicorn profile). The unicorn is a higher nano bevel, and this is unique to the unicorn edge (I am not suggesting that David invented it, but that it is the target here).

Note: David has written a fuller article on this process, which is on the WoodCentral website (which I cannot link to - silly rule here ... which are all in this game together).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Wood sculptors often use a buffing wheel. Some do most of their sharpening on the wheel, with occasional grinding or honing. On the other hand, for carving we need a more precise geometry, so we use slip stones and strops. None of the carvers I know use a buffing wheel at all.

[Winston Chang]

Daniel, David reports success with bevel down planes. He shows evidence of very fine shavings. I began with bevel up block planes and had success. This has been replicated by others. We are all moving slowly, via experimentation, to understanding the dynamics of adding a unicorn profile.

I have not found this as easy to do on BD and BU plane blades as simple block plane blades. Block planes are like chisels in that they are honed on the straight, and the surface quality is not the main area of interest; being sharp and holding this is most relevant.

The success of a bench plane, whether BD or BU, lies in the surface quality. The issue (for me) when unicorning a plane blade is that a high nano bevel can cause the BD plane to run out of clearance, while a high nano bevel on a BU plane can like using a scraper (lots of resistance). The other factor is creating the unicorn on a camber. David says he does it, while I have experienced the camber being exaggerated (blade cuts more in the centre), which is likely down to technique.


Derek, I'm a bit surprised you've had trouble with bevel-up planes. I've been buffing blades for my Veritas low-angle jack and low-angle block planes, and they both leave a very, very smooth surface on the softwoods and hardwoods I've tried (white pine, yellow pine, cherry, red oak). I'd even say that the surface is as good or better than the best surface quality I've been able to get with any other plane. To me, the sharpness and uniformity of the edge is a big benefit of unicorning plane blades. The straightness and smoothness of the edge is better than what I can achieve by hand sharpening, and that translates to better surface quality.


It sounds like perhaps the angle at the edge is too high in your case? If so, you'll probably want to do less buffing, and that may require getting the blade closer to a finished condition on stones before taking it to the buffer.


Here's one way I've been doing it for bevel-up planes:


- Hone a 25-degree bevel on the blade with a Shapton Pro 1000.
- Work the back of the blade on a fine stone (I use a Sigma Power 6000) to ensure any existing damage is removed.
- Lightly work the bevel and then the back on the fine stone to help minimize the burr. (For a good edge, the buffer at a minimum needs to remove the burr, so if there's less burr, you can get away with less buffing, and therefore less angle increase.)
- Buff the bevel side of the blade.




For bevel-down planes, I've also had good results, but it is possible to have clearance issues. I know you've read David's article and seen the section about bevel-down planes, but for those who haven't, the procedure is basically the same as the one I described above. The surface quality that I've been able to get is, again, extremely good, and sharpening is easier and faster, since I don't need to go to the finer stone, and I don't have to be as careful about perfecting the edge -- the buffing wheel takes care of that.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I'm a bit surprised you've had trouble with bevel-up planes. I've been buffing blades for my Veritas low-angle jack and low-angle block planes, and they both leave a very, very smooth surface on the softwoods and hardwoods I've tried (white pine, yellow pine, cherry, red oak). I'd even say that the surface is as good or better than the best surface quality I've been able to get with any other plane. To me, the sharpness and uniformity of the edge is a big benefit of unicorning plane blades. The straightness and smoothness of the edge is better than what I can achieve by hand sharpening, and that translates to better surface quality.


It sounds like perhaps the angle at the edge is too high in your case? If so, you'll probably want to do less buffing, and that may require getting the blade closer to a finished condition on stones before taking it to the buffer.


Here's one way I've been doing it for bevel-up planes:


- Hone a 25-degree bevel on the blade with a Shapton Pro 1000.
- Work the back of the blade on a fine stone (I use a Sigma Power 6000) to ensure any existing damage is removed.
- Lightly work the bevel and then the back on the fine stone to help minimize the burr. (For a good edge, the buffer at a minimum needs to remove the burr, so if there's less burr, you can get away with less buffing, and therefore less angle increase.)
- Buff the bevel side of the blade.




For bevel-down planes, I've also had good results, but it is possible to have clearance issues. I know you've read David's article and seen the section about bevel-down planes, but for those who haven't, the procedure is basically the same as the one I described above. The surface quality that I've been able to get is, again, extremely good, and sharpening is easier and faster, since I don't need to go to the finer stone, and I don't have to be as careful about perfecting the edge -- the buffing wheel takes care of that.

Thanks Winston. Interesting ideas there. They do make sense.

I need to experiment, but I have a good idea why it does not work for BU bench planes ...

The history of my using bevel up planes lies with a need for high cutting angles for interlocked West Australian timbers. It was BU Veritas or high angle HNT Gordon woodies. All needed a cutting angle of at least 60 degrees. For BU planes on a 12 degrees bed, as all know, this is a bevel around 50 degrees.

So here's the thing: if you have a 50 degree bevel, why introduce a Unicorn profile? Firstly, it is not necessary for edge endurance. Secondly, increasing the angle at the leading edge makes the plane behave horribly - like a scraper.

So I imagine that those who do unicorn a BU bench plane are using a lower bevel angle to begin. Winston, you are stating that you use a 25 degree bevel. How do you know what you are adding by way of cutting angle with the unicorn profile? Another 20 degrees? 30 degrees? That takes the cutting angle to around 45-50 degrees. It is too low for WA timbers.

The problem here is that BU bench planes require a somewhat OCD approach when you work with interlocked grain. Lesser woods do not test this issue. Just as a case in point, I love the streamers that David and Rob Cosman can produce. On the wood - Hard Maple - it just requires a sharp edge. I can replicate this with ease in my workshop. It is fun :) However, try the same set up on a wood like Jarrah, and it will be patchy, the shavings will struggle to straighten, and you will think that the plane blade is dull. Back to the Maple, and the streamers fly.

I use bevel down planes far more these days, and plan to do a little practice this weekend. It is needed in this area and there are a few ideas to try out - I will report back later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Just stopped in at Lowes, today....between the wheels, and pair of large washers + Mil. Discount..$11.30

Kobalt brand. 2 wheels, one "Firm" and one "Medium"...with a leather washers sewn in....5/8" arbor hole. Two $0.37 cent 5/8" washers to help out..

One wheel is white, the other is yellow..may try the yellow first. ( need to find that green "crayon", too)

[Winston Chang]

Thanks Winston. Interesting ideas there. They do make sense.

I need to experiment, but I have a good idea why it does not work for BU bench planes ...

The history of my using bevel up planes lies with a need for high cutting angles for interlocked West Australian timbers. It was BU Veritas or high angle HNT Gordon woodies. All needed a cutting angle of at least 60 degrees. For BU planes on a 12 degrees bed, as all know, this is a bevel around 50 degrees.

So here's the thing: if you have a 50 degree bevel, why introduce a Unicorn profile? Firstly, it is not necessary for edge endurance. Secondly, increasing the angle at the leading edge makes the plane behave horribly - like a scraper.

So I imagine that those who do unicorn a BU bench plane are using a lower bevel angle to begin. Winston, you are stating that you use a 25 degree bevel. How do you know what you are adding by way of cutting angle with the unicorn profile? Another 20 degrees? 30 degrees? That takes the cutting angle to around 45-50 degrees. It is too low for WA timbers.

The problem here is that BU bench planes require a somewhat OCD approach when you work with interlocked grain. Lesser woods do not test this issue. Just as a case in point, I love the streamers that David and Rob Cosman can produce. On the wood - Hard Maple - it just requires a sharp edge. I can replicate this with ease in my workshop. It is fun :) However, try the same set up on a wood like Jarrah, and it will be patchy, the shavings will struggle to straighten, and you will think that the plane blade is dull. Back to the Maple, and the streamers fly.

I use bevel down planes far more these days, and plan to do a little practice this weekend. It is needed in this area and there are a few ideas to try out - I will report back later.


That makes sense that with the woods you're using, you have a different set of concerns than I do.

For me, using a 25-degree blade and buffing it seems to make it behave like a low angle blade in terms of surface quality (planing with the grain in softwood), but did result in some tearout when going against the grain. I also used a unicorned 32-degree blade, and it had better resistance to tearout, and only marginally worse surface quality in softwoods.

I don't know exact final angle was for my buffed 25-degree blades. Based on the previous blade profile pictures I've taken, I'm pretty sure it's at least 45 degrees, which results in a cutting angle of at least 57 degrees. Still, the surface quality is much better than what I'd normally expect from that cutting angle, so I think when you're talking about the angle of a nanobevel, the behavior (with respect to surface quality) isn't exactly the same as with a flat-honed blade at the same angle.

I agree that the blade durability won't be increased much if at all by buffing, if you're already using a 50 degree bevel. But the buffing wheel still has a big advantage in terms of being very fast and easy to get a good uniform edge. It almost feels like I'm cheating now when I use a buffing wheel to sharpen a blade for a bevel-up plane.

My guess is that you'll want to start with a different angle (maybe 35-40?) before taking it to the buffing wheel, but I don't know for sure. All that said, it might be that in the end, a bevel-down plane is still best for you.

[Winston Chang]

Just for fun, here's the surface of the white pine after planing it with the buffed 25 degree blade. Of course you can this kind of a surface without using a buffing wheel, but the buffing wheel makes it easier.

439455

[Derek Cohen]

Winston, I don't have photos of planed boards to hand (although there are a lot of planed boards in the build articles), so I will describe a few features.

First off, I only work with hard woods. The softest wood I have is Tasmanian Oak, which is similar to White Oak. I posted pictures recently on Jacaranda.

Of relevance is that the West Australian woods respond differently to the USA woods I have worked a fair bit with: Hard Maple, Cherry, and Black Walnut. The US woods all have longish fibres, while the Australian woods have short fibres. What occurs with the Oz woods when they tear out is often subtle - there is a roughening of the surface, with a "grated" look like an abraded scab. There can be more common looking tearout as well, but it is not as extensive compared with the US woods. When Hard Maple tears out, for example, it is like a large splinter coming off. There is a deep gash in the wood. Much of the time the US woods do not tear out, and can be planed with low cutting angles .... but, then suddenly! Ouch! With the Oz woods, it is much more frequent, but not as dramatic. You learn to be planing for potential tearout all the time. If you are not closing down the chipbreaker, you plane with a high cutting angle. The though of planing with a common angle and no chipbreaker just does not compute.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Well pad is on my 6" grinder, now. Green stick has been used....two chisels have been "subjected" to this "method".....not at all happy with the results..they were actually dulled, edge profiles got changed...will try again when I get a bit of time....not a "happy camper" right now....

[Jerome Andrieux]

Winston, I don't have photos of planed boards to hand (although there are a lot of planed boards in the build articles), so I will describe a few features.

First off, I only work with hard woods. The softest wood I have is Tasmanian Oak, which is similar to White Oak. I posted pictures recently on Jacaranda.

Of relevance is that the West Australian woods respond differently to the USA woods I have worked a fair bit with: Hard Maple, Cherry, and Black Walnut. The US woods all have longish fibres, while the Australian woods have soft fibres. What occurs with the Oz woods when they tear out is often subtle - there is a roughening of the surface, with a "grated" look like an abraded scab. There can be more common looking tearout as well, but it is not as extensive compared with the US woods. When Hard Maple tears out, for example, it is like a large splinter coming off. There is a deep gash in the wood. Much of the time the US woods do not tear out, and can be planed with low cutting angles .... but, then suddenly! Ouch! With the Oz woods, it is much more frequent, but but as dramatic. You learn to be planing for potential tearout all the time. If you are not closing down the chipbreaker, you plane with a high cutting angle. The though of planing with a common angle and no chipbreaker just does not compute.

Regards from Perth

Derek

As a European, I see Australian wood just like any other "exotic" woods...: usually harder, heavier and more difficult to work with.

From chestnut to sorb, highly figured pieces are the only situation where using a BU plane becomes an issue. In my experience however, BU planes still requires more maintenance than BD, because of their particular wearing behavior on the back side of the bevel (back wear bevel? On the flat side that is). I guess this behavior is exacerbated in your WA woods.

[steven c newman]

Decided to "retire" that old Craftsman 6" dual wheel grinder...1950s model?....as I picked a better one up, today..
439491
For....about...$10...
439492
The wheels have no signs of even been used...will need to haul this heavy thing down to the shop...and switch it and the old Craftsman out....

I did not see any "pedestal", sitting at the Estate Sale today....Hopefully the "new" grinder fits where the old grinder did....

[Curt Putnam]

Steven,

From another beginner with the method .... The 6" grinder is almost certainly full speed which means a lighter touch and a shorter (time-wise) touch. David says that there is a short period of failed experiments required to "get it right." I am at the point of win some, lose some. A central point of the method is that raising a wire edge before buffing removes whatever has gone before and presents a clean slate to the buffer.

[Derek Cohen]

As a European, I see Australian wood just like any other "exotic" woods...: usually harder, heavier and more difficult to work with.

From chestnut to sorb, highly figured pieces are the only situation where using a BU plane becomes an issue. In my experience however, BU planes still requires more maintenance than BD, because of their particular wearing behavior on the back side of the bevel (back wear bevel? On the flat side that is). I guess this behavior is exacerbated in your WA woods.

Jerome, the wear bevel is essentially a non-issue in practice. I have never had a BU place stop cutting, or cut poorly, owing to a wear bevel. Part of the reason for this is that I ensure that the back of the blade is polished when I hone, and then I may strop it (the back ... you cannot strop the micro secondary bevel on the face) to extend the edge. An alternate method here is to use the Rule Trick (I do not as I just prefer to strop).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Cliff Polubinsky]

I LOVE this procedure.

In less than 3 hours yesterday I sharpened 18 chisels, a combination of bench, paring and butt, PM-V11and white steel. A few were chipped so I had to start with coarser stones and work up to the 1000 stone. I found that I could tell when I had buffed properly when I saw the thin bright line along the edge and that I should recharge the wheel more often than I expected. I tested each chisel after sharpening and they all cut whisper thin shavings of maple.

If I'd used the way I had been sharpening I'd still have a good number of them to do today. Thanks to all that passed along the information.

Cliff

[Charles Guest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re_bp5Lp0To

[ken hatch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re_bp5Lp0To

Charles,

Good video and for folks that are un-aware of the technique should be very helpful. I don't use blunt chisels often but when needed like adjusting the bed of a wood stock plane they are very useful.

ken

[Jerome Andrieux]

Jerome, the wear bevel is essentially a non-issue in practice. I have never had a BU place stop cutting, or cut poorly, owing to a wear bevel. Part of the reason for this is that I ensure that the back of the blade is polished when I hone, and then I may strop it (the back ... you cannot strop the micro secondary bevel on the face) to extend the edge. An alternate method here is to use the Rule Trick (I do not as I just prefer to strop).


If follow the same process and get good results. I understand that they provide great value considering the wood you work with, honed at a high angle.

I find BU blades to be more maintenance and poorer ergonomics when it comes to sharpening. For one thing, BU blades are thick but short and I have large hands. Not to mention that when chipping happens, the thickness of the blade implies a lot of grinding.

[Derek Cohen]

If follow the same process and get good results. I understand that they provide great value considering the wood you work with, honed at a high angle.

I find BU blades to be more maintenance and poorer ergonomics when it comes to sharpening. For one thing, BU blades are thick but short and I have large hands. Not to mention that when chipping happens, the thickness of the blade implies a lot of grinding.

Jerome, I am not trying to sell you on BU planes (I use BD planes far more), however there are some factors here that are non-issues in my world. By-the-way, I have large hands as well.

Sharpening is never recommended to be on a full bevel, unless used on a shooting board at 25 degrees on a hollow grind. For all other bench plane use, there is a secondary bevel, and this is added with a honing guide to assure that the correct angle is obtained. This is especially important if you wish to add a camber to the blade. The size of one's hands is irrelevant. And chipping is no more a factor than for any other blade - actually, probably less for BU planes. The thickness is never an issue if you are hollow grinding.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

The thickness is never an issue if you are hollow grinding.

This is true for many. Many others may not be set up to hollow grind.

jtk

[Eric Rathhaus]

Hi Ken - is he essentially creating a scraper with a long handle? Seems like that burr is like the hook edge of a scraper.

[ken hatch]

Hi Ken - is he essentially creating a scraper with a long handle? Seems like that burr is like the hook edge of a scraper.

Eric,

That is how it acts. If you use or make wood stock planes they are lifesavers. I've a few, don't use often but when you need one nothing else works as well.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Look at the video again he holds the chisel and gouge upside down on the grinder. Afterword he mentions the burr and says it has nothing to do with the working of what is essentially a 90º bevel.

The blunt chisel works more like a float with only one tooth.

This one might not work well with a unicorn profile.

jtk

[ken hatch]

Look at the video again he holds the chisel and gouge upside down on the grinder. Afterword he mentions the burr and says it has nothing to do with the working of what is essentially a 90º bevel.

The blunt chisel works more like a float with only one tooth.

This one might not work well with a unicorn profile.

jtk

Jim,

You are correct, I hadn't thought of it as a float before but that is much closer than a scraper.

ken

[steven c newman]

Dedicated grinder is now set up...
439730
Yellow disc seems a bit stiffer than...
439731
The white one. Green "crayon" added to both.....trying to avoid a blizzard of white or yellow strings they seem to give off. grinder now sits on a plate I can clamp in the bench vise...
439732
So I can then put the grinder/buffer over on a shelf when done....

[Eric Rathhaus]

R you saying he holds them upside on the grinder creating the burr on the bevel side or in use?

[David Silverson]

I've been trying this buffing method on my bevel up and bevel down plane blades and have been completely happy with the results. I'm going from a 20 degree CBN hollow ground primary bevel to my medium ceramic stone followed by the buffing. I've encountered no issues and am impressed with the speed and sharpness.

[steven c newman]

Almost ready to go...
440079
Have a"Stiff" yellow wheel, and a soft white wheel.....the stiff wheel tries to cut a round profile into the edge...the white merely buffs things shiny....using a green "Crayon" on both wheels.

I usually have a single,25 degree bevel on all my edges. White wheel on the end of a chisel....was shaving arm hair when done. May toss the yellow "stiff" wheel, and install a fine brass wire wheel in it's place, as I use that in the rehab work to clean Rusty & Krusty stuff...

[Rafael Herrera]

Eric, the chisel is presented to the grinder with its back (the flat side) facing up. The idea is to create a 90 degree face, not a burr.

[Jim Koepke]

R you saying he holds them upside on the grinder creating the burr on the bevel side or in use?

Eric, watch the video again. My recollection is at about one minute in is where the grinding starts. The burr is not on the bevel side or the side in use.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Ok...Wood River No. 62....been a PITA trying to sharpen and adjust. sticking with the 25 degree factory bevel, for now. After checking the back for flat...it wasn't...got that flattened....then BOTH the soft and the firm cloth wheels had a turn....

Hardest part is getting the lateral adjustment corrected....then trying to keep it adjusted. Was finally able to get everything adjusted to where a full width shaving could be taken.....plane is even more finicky than my Stanley 45 to set up ( at least the 45 WILL hold it's settings). had an OLD wood bodied level that needed it's edges trued up....about 15-20 passes along each edge....seems to have done the trick...level sits nicely on a surface, without any rocking around. Will go back later, and add some BLO along the edges...I'd post a few pictures, but..some on here don't like my non-photo studio photos...
However...
440184440185440186440187


If I can figure out how to remove the rounding problems from the cloth wheels....they might just work out....would prefer they have a square edge to them....and get them to quit shedding strings like a Sheepdog does hair....

[Tim Best]

Hi all,

Has anyone experienced inconsistent results with using the unicorn method on BD plane irons? I have been tinkering with the unicorn profile since David Weaver’s first posts appeared on Wood Central. Occasionally (about 1 of 4 attempts) I get it mostly right. The plane will take shavings, but doesn’t feel “right” and frequently jambs particularly in one corner. I hollow grind the irons to + or - 20*, add a secondary in the 25* range on a 1000 grit water stone, and then to the buffing wheel charged with green compound for a few seconds. Sometimes it works, sometimes is doesn’t. I think I may be over buffing and creating clearance issues. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks.

Tim

[Stewie Simpson]

Tim; the "give" within the soft buffing wheels fabric wont allow you much control on the steepness of the convex micro bevel.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi all,

Has anyone experienced inconsistent results with using the unicorn method on BD plane irons? I have been tinkering with the unicorn profile since David Weaver’s first posts appeared on Wood Central. Occasionally (about 1 of 4 attempts) I get it mostly right. The plane will take shavings, but doesn’t feel “right” and frequently jambs particularly in one corner. I hollow grind the irons to + or - 20*, add a secondary in the 25* range on a 1000 grit water stone, and then to the buffing wheel charged with green compound for a few seconds. Sometimes it works, sometimes is doesn’t. I think I may be over buffing and creating clearance issues. Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks.

Tim

Tim ..

The variability of the buffing angles is what I am missing with the unicorn buffing in preparing plane blades, both BU and BD. This has nothing to do with the softness or hardness of the buffing wheel. These only determine the rate of buffing.

There is a very real difference in performance on interlocked grain when a BU plane is cutting at 55- and 62 degrees. Planing very thin shavings and straight grain will not reveal how well you are faring with BU blades. You really need to be testing this out on interlocked grain, and using your standard thickness shavings.

With BD plane blades, it is the clearance angle one is concerned about. On the typical 45 degree bed, a blade with a 30 degree bevel plus a 10 degree unicorn nano bevel, or a 25 degree bevel plus a 15 degree unicorn nano bevel, will run out of clearance angle. Yet it can work, since I have demonstrated this to myself. But work for how long?


In my mind this is a lot like learning to set up the chipbreaker. Trial-and-error gets you closer to the ideal distance/angle. No doubt that we will look back in the months to come and wonder why it was so difficult back then.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[David Eisenhauer]

Minor note Tim - I have seen a DW video and his explanation of the soft wheel charging sequence: He only jabs the buffing compound stick to the soft wheel as it is spinning and leaves it in contact with the wheel for what seems like a second. He states that he re charges the soft wheel with the compound "every two or three times he buffs". Perhaps excess buffing compound on the wheel is causing you some issues. I'm just spit balling and have no real evidence to offer.

[Derek Cohen]

David, you are on the right track.

There are different types of buffing wheels. I started with this one when experimenting. It was highly loaded with green compound.

https://i.postimg.cc/j59MfLzm/3.jpg


You can also see that there are several rows of stitching. This makes for a tight wheel. The cloth is denim, and I suspect that it is harder than the cotton wheels. This set up will buff strongly.

The two below are the denim wheel and a cotton wheel. The denim wheel is used with very little green compound, and a lighter touch is recommended. The white cotton wheel has only a few rows of stitching and is used with a white compound, which is a little coarser than the green. The relative softness of this wheel makes for a gentler buffing action. That translates into a smaller wire or less buffing, per se.


https://i.postimg.cc/8C8yTmmK/M4-2.jpg

It is also relevant to note that steels are not all equal. Harder steels need more buffing than softer steels, and one set up may benefit more than another.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jerome Andrieux]

Jerome, I am not trying to sell you on BU planes (I use BD planes far more), however there are some factors here that are non-issues in my world. By-the-way, I have large hands as well.

Sharpening is never recommended to be on a full bevel, unless used on a shooting board at 25 degrees on a hollow grind. For all other bench plane use, there is a secondary bevel, and this is added with a honing guide to assure that the correct angle is obtained. This is especially important if you wish to add a camber to the blade. The size of one's hands is irrelevant. And chipping is no more a factor than for any other blade - actually, probably less for BU planes. The thickness is never an issue if you are hollow grinding.


I am already sold and I agree with most of your remarks knowing from our previous discussions that we work in very different conditions and as such BU planes may have more relevance for you than they have for me.

"Relevance" seems more subjective than I thought :)

[Cliff Polubinsky]

This probably is a silly question but it's been running through my head for a while.

When using the unicorn profile on a bd plane blade would it make sense to apply the profile to the back, rather than the bevel?

When you apply the profile to the bevel side the microbevel is curving up away from the wood and you're counting on the angle of the frog to be enough to keep the edge into the wood. Where if you apply it to the back the microbevel is curving down to the wood and now the approach to the wood is acting more like a chisel with the bevel of the plane blade acting as the back of the chisel and the back of the plane blade acting like the bevel of the chisel.

There's probably all kind of reasons why this doesn't make sense. Could someone explain to me why?

Thanks.

[Derek Cohen]

Cliff, adding the unicorn bevel to the back of the blade has been done for many decades, if not centuries. It is referred to as a back bevel. This alters the cutting angle, for example, a 15 degree back bevel on a 45 degree frog/bed would create a 60 degree cutting angle. Some want this, and some do not.

Regards from Perth

Derek