Sharpening a new Lie Nielsen A2 plane blade, getting black gunk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

A friend stopped over with his never been sharpened, but has been used, Lie Nielsen #5 plane. He purchased it new, not sure when, but less than a year.

So, the blade is A2 with Cryo treatment.

Blade came at 25 degrees and he wanted it at 30 degrees. No problem, used my Tormek to take it to 30 degrees.

The back of the blade has some machining marks so time to polish up the back.

I wanted to knock the burr off on something hard so I grabbed one of my Dan's Hard Black Arkansas stones (Dan's claims it as their finest stone). No more burr, but, that blade really wanted to stick to the stone even with the oil, strange.

Cleaned the blade and I dropped it onto a Shapton 5K Pro.

I should have taken a picture, sorry, but, it was leaving dark black on the stone.

I saw this with the Shapton 2K glass stone, 5K Pro, 8K Pro, and 16K glass stone.

Clearly, it was pulling stuff off the blade, but what it pulled, it left very heavy on the stone, and that stuff then prevented the stone from doing its job.

I found that a Nagura Japanese Natural Slurry Stone on the 5K helped some.

So, initially, it was wet the stone, run a few passes on the stone, wipe it dry, water it, ....

What we finally did was I would polish the back while my friend would continuously spray the stone. That was the best solution, but it was crazy.

I normally polish it more than I did, but, we ended up with a nice mirror next to the edge and an OK mirror going back an inch or two.

Next, I free handed the bevel and I have to say, it really wanted to skip on my. Very careful control to sharpen this blade.

I don't ever remember having this much trouble and I have flattened many blades. OK, not compared to people like Steve, but at least 100 blades (chisel and plane). During the process, my friend asked if he should return the blade. I recommended that he wait to see how it cut after we slogged through things.

We had to move the frog back a bit, but afterwards, that plane was amazing with that blade. We were pulling full length and width shavings so thin that I was measuring them as zero so probably under 0.001

I own Lie Nielsen planes, but I did up the blades years ago. Perhaps they were this troublesome and I just do not remember.

Does this sound normal? The final results were excellent, I just don't remember this much trouble. Maybe I am just pickier now so I do more....

[Frederick Skelly]

Yeah, wish you had a picture.
I dont know if what I see happening on my A2 plane irons is the same as what you are experiencing. But I usually get black streaks on my Shapton stones when honing or polishing. (There's quite a lot of it when polishing the back.) I assume it is the waste material coming off the iron (swarf?). I often get "stiction" too.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Yeah, wish you had a picture.
I dont know if what I see happening on my A2 plane irons is the same as what you are experiencing. But I usually get black streaks on my Shapton stones when honing or polishing. (There's quite a lot of it when polishing the back.) I assume it is the waste material coming off the iron (swarf?). I often get "stiction" too.

I would wager money that you are correct and for sure there was a lot of stiction going on as well. I am just not used to seeing so much of it.

[Andrew Hughes]

My Lie Neilson plane blade load up my Shapton stones. When I see the most of the surface has been used it I refresh with diamond plate. I have both the Shapton diamond plates.
Someday soon I hope to have a Nano hone from Stanley. Both my reference plates are cutting kinda slow.
I see much more black from my high carbon chisels. But the A2 does seem to cling more.

Good Luck

[Andrew Pitonyak]

My Lie Neilson plane blade load up my Shapton stones. When I see the most of the surface has been used it I refresh with diamond plate. I have both the Shapton diamond plates.
Someday soon I hope to have a Nano hone from Stanley. Both my reference plates are cutting kinda slow.
I see much more black from my high carbon chisels. But the A2 does seem to cling more.

Good Luck

In other words, this might be considered normal. The good news, of course, is that the final results were amazing, just more painful than I am used to.

[Robert Hazelwood]

The black stuff is almost certainly just steel swarf- have you not noticed it before?

The Shapton 5k stone in my experience is pretty bad about loading. It has a rubbery sort of feel and seems to attract swarf such that it doesn't want to rinse off. So I end up flattening the stone a lot during use to keep the surface fresh. Overall the stone cuts well and leaves a nice finish but I never really liked it due to the rubbery feel and loading issues.

I've moved onto oil stones for the most part, but I recently read that the Shapton 5k benefits greatly from a 10-15 minute soaking prior to use- that it changes the stone into something with a much better feel and resists loading. I've always treated Shapton's as "splash and go" but the next time I use them I'll soak the 5k and 15k and see if they improve. The 1k has always worked great with just a splash.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The black stuff is almost certainly just steel swarf- have you not noticed it before?

I see this all the time, but, not nearly to the extent I saw this time.

I purchased my first stones, which includes the Shapton Pro 5K, when I was trying to figure out how to sharpen a chef knife. There was a suggested set of stones and I blindly purchased them. I gave away the first two stones about a month ago since I hardly ever used them. Come to think of it, I have at least one more I should probably get rid of. I kept the Shapton Pro 5K. I figured out how to make workable use of it. I recently picked up the 8K Pro used here. Did not really need it, but the price was right.

I don't have the 1K stone, but I have a 2K, 4K, and 6K glass stone. The glass stones will cut faster, especially on a fancier steel. I do not have any of the "high carbon" varieties.

Thanks for the reply.

[Jerome Andrieux]

"Gunk" usually means greasy. You can’t really create gunk out of metal powder and water.

New blades are covered with some kind of rust protecting fat (oil, wax, grease ...) that needs to be removed with a thinner liquid (alcohol, white spirit, ...). If your friend’s blade was never taken out, there may have been some left. Or maybe he sprayed some wd40... These fat compound produce mayonnaise on the stones, when mixed and rubbed with water.

My a2 blades produces less "black" on the stones than my vintage laminated blades. Nothing that prevent the stone from working anyway, the residues being "pushed" by the edge.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

"Gunk" usually means greasy. You can’t really create gunk out of metal powder and water.

New blades are covered with some kind of rust protecting fat (oil, wax, grease ...) that needs to be removed with a thinner liquid (alcohol, white spirit, ...). If your friend’s blade was never taken out, there may have been some left. Or maybe he sprayed some wd40... These fat compound produce mayonnaise on the stones, when mixed and rubbed with water.

My a2 blades produces less "black" on the stones than my vintage laminated blades. Nothing that prevent the stone from working anyway, the residues being "pushed" by the edge.

I know that he used it, but the frog was too far forward so we could not really take a shaving so I am not really sure how much but you could easily tell that it had been used. I asked if he had washed it and he said no. I should have just cleaned it completely rather than simply wiping it clean. I have plenty of choices for cleaning stuff in my shop.

[Jerome Andrieux]

I know that he used it, but the frog was too far forward so we could not really take a shaving so I am not really sure how much but you could easily tell that it had been used. I asked if he had washed it and he said no. I should have just cleaned it completely rather than simply wiping it clean. I have plenty of choices for cleaning stuff in my shop.

I usually Wd40 the tools can rust for long term storage. Don’t ask me how I know about stone mayonnaise. Living in a town with a hundred bridges is great, as I got to build myself bridges, but with bridges usually comes water, fog, flooding ... and rust.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I usually Wd40 the tools can rust for long term storage. Don’t ask me how I know about stone mayonnaise. Living in a town with a hundred bridges is great, as I got to build myself bridges, but with bridges usually comes water, fog, flooding ... and rust.

I usually use Camellia Oil because I purchased some from Lie Nielson years ago when I purchased a hand plane from them (OK, I have a few from them) and that bottle has lasted for years.

If you read this:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?93472-What-s-so-special-about-Camelia-Oil

They discuss things like "what causes rust" and apparently WD-40 came out as a great thing to use for this.

Also based on the discussions, I should check to see if my Camellia oil has anything in it. Apparently you do want something in it for rust prevention, but then it is not food safe is my guess.

[les winter]

This sounds like something I have experienced. Any oil carried over from that oil stone to a water stone caused gunk on my Norton 8000. Clean the oil off before using the water stone and gunk will be no more. I use Dawn.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

This sounds like something I have experienced. Any oil carried over from that oil stone to a water stone caused gunk on my Norton 8000. Clean the oil off before using the water stone and gunk will be no more. I use Dawn.

I almost asked you what you used to clean the blade.... Alcohol, Acetone, ..... Oh, you use Dawn! Yeah, I have that too! :D

[les winter]

I do not know if you can use Dawn on a Shapton. I know you can on a Norton. Just a drop. Keeps things clean and easy sliding.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I do not know if you can use Dawn on a Shapton. I know you can on a Norton. Just a drop. Keeps things clean and easy sliding.

Shapton specifically says do not use soap in the water that is used on their stones; but I can wash the blade with dawn then rinse off the soap before use on the Shapton stone.

Ironically, they say that you can use Oil with their stones, but if you use it once, you must always use it.

https://shapton.co.jp/en/faq/

The FAQ uses the term "detergent" if you are looking for their comments related to soap.

My favorite question in the FAQ is.... "Can Shapton stones be used outside Japan?"

I understand that many people do add a few drops of soap to their water to reduce stiction. Anyone remember Stanley Covington? He indicated that soap will reduce effectiveness so he suggested the following:


if you use soap, stick with dishwashing soap because the PH tends to be alkaline. The problem with soap is that it is slippery, and tends to reduce friction. But more friction, not less, is what you really need when sharpening steel.

Washing soda or borax dissolved in distilled water works better. Some professional sharpeners in Japan go as far as to add dilute lye to adjust the PH of their sharpening water. These chemicals make the "water wetter" without decreasing friction, and greatly reduce water's corrosive tendency.

I have never measured the concentration. I keep mine in a plastic wash bottle ( the kind with the plastic looped tube), and add borax or washing Soda to the water a little at a time until it will no longer dissolve. Supersaturated.

I use this on water stones and diamond plates. It can leave a whitish ring on the stones when dry, but this has never harmed the stones or negatively affected sharpening.

I wish I could say I invented the idea, but I learned it from professional sharpeners (you know, the guys with soggy fingers).

I also use distilled water instead of tap water because all tap water in modern countries contains chlorine, which is a powerful oxidizer, and accumulates in closed containers. Swords are very expensive, and even a bit of chlorine that finds its way into the blades pores can cause corrosion.

Note that I think that the water in Germany did not contain chlorine when I lived there.

Patrick Chase opined that



As others have said you need to understand the binder type of your stones (clay, resin, magnesia, ceramic, etc) and any resulting chemical [in]compatibilities before you go down this road. You also need to consider volatility and its impact on drying rates and heat transfer. Some magnesia stones are known to craze/crack when they dry out too quickly or are subjected to overly rapid thermal cycling, so I'd be careful using anything that evaporates faster than plain water with those.

Soap is probably a safe choice with most if not all waterstones.

With all that said, some people still choose to use Soap, which brings us to Stuart Tierney


Soap, surfactant, ok (but warranty, voided!). Anything else? Well, it doesn't matter, Shapton are not supposed to be used with anything but plain water, but really a drop or two of dish soap is about as angry (chemical wise) I'd do to Shaptons. They're not tough stones, so going with anything that's not been tried by someone with deeper pockets might have you end up with a nice little pile of orange, purple or blue/green silt.

The reasons why plain soap works are because it reduces the surface tension and softens the resin binder quickly, meaning that the surface of the stone is more strongly resistant to aquaplaning and slightly more friable making them work a little faster with less trouble. You do give up some of the dish resistance and hardness of the stones (not always a bad thing) but in exchange get rather nice stones to use. A fair trade off. It makes them work as though they were soaked for 10 minutes prior to use, which is what Shapton recommends but was (conveniently) lost in translation somewhere along the line. But the soap also means that you must clean them off with clear water and get them dry quickly or else they can be harmed because while the soap speeds up the 'workability' of them, it also accelerates the 'point of no return' as well. Use it sparingly, and more than a drop or two of good quality dishwashing soap is too much, wash it off and try again or simply dilute it with an excess of water.

Now you can go muddle through the source:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?175741-Shaptons

[steven c newman]

More than welcome to try things out on this one...
438924

[Andrew Pitonyak]

More than welcome to try things out on this one...

I guess that I would first ask how it works now. A silly question, sometimes I think that you could make the worst piece of junk work, and that is most definitely NOT a piece of junk :-)

[steven c newman]

Quick answer...it don't.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Quick answer...it don't.

Interesting, I should take a look :-)

[steven c newman]

Just tried sharpening it up....back to 25 degrees, check the back for flat, too....stopped....cleaned out the plane itself...assembled, tried out on some Pine....NADA....barely makes a strip of shavings....

Note: I also sharpened up a Millers Falls No. 9, type 4.....world of difference....see-through shavings...not full width because I was cleaning off the mess left by the #62...I have block planes that plane better than the #62...

[Osvaldo Cristo]

Interesting your comprehensive descriptions. Thanks to share a such level of details.

I also have LN irons I use in my two BU planes.

1) I follow Derek's suggestion and always have 25° as primary bevel. I have blades I maintain 25° but I also have a couple of them micro beveled at 35° and one at 50°

2) I use a set of diamond plates gritted at 300, 600 and 1,200. Blurr is the flag to discover if I used enough the plates. It appears fast. Followed by stropping

3) Personally I can spend a lot of time without use the diamond plates to sharp the irons. Usually only stropping is enough to maintain them sharp

[Derek Cohen]

....
Note: I also sharpened up a Millers Falls No. 9, type 4.....world of difference....see-through shavings...not full width because I was cleaning off the mess left by the #62...I have block planes that plane better than the #62...

Ordinarily I would just ignore a post like this. However, Steven you leave an impression for others that the #62 is a poor plane. It is not. It is a superior user. However you insist on planing face grain with a 25 degree bevel, which is a 37 degree cutting angle. That is a recipe for failure. A un-chipbreakered Millers Falls has a cutting angle of 45 degrees. This is not an apples vs apples comparison. The advantage of BU planes for those that use them lies with the opportunity to use them with a high cutting angle (just create a 40 degree secondary bevel, for example).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

The 62 I have is great....as a scrub plane...so, that is usually how it it used....

How many angles was that..again....and why would I NEED "high angles" in the first place....when I use a chipbreaker...

Used to have a York pitch #3.....never did like it...wound up selling it...

Maybe Rob Cosman could figure the plane out? Since he sells Wood River planes...

[Derek Cohen]

The 62 I have is great....as a scrub plane...so, that is usually how it it used.......

Steven, if you use your #62 as a scrub plane (I thought you had other planes for this), then why do you keep repeating that you are surprised that it tears out?

You cannot have it both ways - either the #62 is a plane used to minimise tearout, or it is a plane to maximise deep cuts.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Ordinarily I would just ignore a post like this. However, Steven you leave an impression for others that the #62 is a poor plane. It is not. It is a superior user. However you insist on planing face grain with a 25 degree bevel, which is a 37 degree cutting angle. That is a recipe for failure. A un-chipbreakered Millers Falls has a cutting angle of 45 degrees. This is not an apples vs apples comparison. The advantage of BU planes for those that use them lies with the opportunity to use them with a high cutting angle (just create a 40 degree secondary bevel, for example).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Is this a good time for me to say "I did not know that". I have never used one. If I ever get one, I will research what they are good for.

[steven c newman]

Or...just try mine out....

[Rafael Herrera]

The cutting mechanics of bevel up and bevel down planes are different. I think this video by HNT Gordon describes the differences pretty well. https://youtu.be/5v9X9Cgtl7c

My understanding of the BU plane is that by using a steeper bevel, one presents a steeper cutting angle to the wood. That coupled to a tight mouth is how tear out is avoided.

With a double iron plane, tear out is avoided by properly setting up the cap iron, the mouth width or the bevel angle are not as key factors as with BU planes.

[J. Greg Jones]

My understanding of bevel-up planes is that you can’t sharpen them at 25* for a 37* inclusive angle, and expect them to perform the same, or better, than a BD plane operating at 45*.

[steven c newman]

And...my BD Jack plane does NOT skip along...cutting here and there as it glides along.....as my Sargent VBM #414c does,....the #62 is like a "Hit & Miss" steam engine...hits here, skips there....doesn't seem to matter much where the mouth opening is set....zero lateral adjustment...well, maybe IF I use a screwdriver between the side of the plane and the iron.....maybe it just needs some Magic Pixie Dust to help it out.....

Used the #62 across the grain for a while....where long see through shavings are NOT required. Shavings were shaped just like a pile of toothpicks..

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, until you assure the audience that you set up the #62 correctly for the intended purpose, any review or comment you make is valueless. The #62 makes a superb plane for traversing - assuming that it is set up correctly. A plane that “skips” clearly is not.

Stanley #62 (an original one) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/yNrzW58y/C2-D35-EA8-F478-48-BF-A665-59175-CBD1-FF1.png

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

R E A L L Y.....

Last I looked...I was talking to Andrew.....not a salesman....but...
439219
Ash...with tear out...had to go back over it...
439220
Millers Falls No. 14....
439222
Flattening a raised panel for a door....

[Tony Wilkins]

R E A L L Y.....

Last I looked...I was talking to Andrew.....not a salesman....but...
439219
Ash...with tear out...had to go back over it...
439220
Millers Falls No. 14....
439222
Flattening a raised panel for a door....
Out of curiosity what vintage/maker is your 62?

[steven c newman]

That be the Wood River No. 62
439231
New, right out of the box....was a "Door Prize"
439232
2014..I also tried the WR. No. 4, V3....for almost a year....then sold it....too fiddly, too heavy,

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Steven, until you assure the audience that you set up the #62 correctly for the intended purpose, any review or comment you make is valueless. The #62 makes a superb plane for traversing - assuming that it is set up correctly. A plane that “skips” clearly is not.

Stanley #62 (an original one) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/yNrzW58y/C2-D35-EA8-F478-48-BF-A665-59175-CBD1-FF1.png

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, in the photo, how did you use the plane? Were you running in the direction of the grain (lengthwise) or running cross grain (across the width)? I assume the second based on the shavings.

Also, I did watch the linked videos, and although I feel like I learned something, I feel like I would need to evaluate how to best use this type of plane.

Andrew

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Andrew

The #62 was set up with a very finely cambered 25-degree bevel for traversing across the grain - the low cutting angle is preferred across the grain as it will reduce spelching. In this photo, the plane is taking final cross grain shavings as the board is flattened for use. After this, it will be planed along the grain.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Maybe tomorrow, I'll give the WR 62 a complete tear down...and check on a few items.....

Maybe spend the evening looking at Rob Cosman videos.....to see IF there is anything about how he tunes one of these up.....


Had a fellow stop by this morning from Springfield, OH......He had a pair of planes he could not get to work right......tuned them both up for him, and showed him how to use them....Getting full width see-throughs with a Buck Brothers No. 4....then worked over his Stanley No.5....the ones with the blue ribs around the rear handle....got it fixed up enough to work as a Jack plane should...making nice long rolls of Moxxon TP..

He was quite happy when he left....perhaps I do know a few things about a hand plane.....and the fellow is now in search of even more planes to go from an all power tool shop, to working with hand tools.

[David Eisenhauer]

Payin it forward Steven C. Good stuff.