Oil Stones? Help Identifying.

[Erich Weidner]

These came from my Father's garage, they could be from my Grandfather (who did some woodworking), or the prior owner of the house. No way to know now.

So the box of one of these labeled Carborundum is clearly an oil stone (as the back of the box instructs to use oil).

438574 438575... very dished out.

And this one:
438576438577

[ken hatch]

These came from my Father's garage, they could be from my Grandfather (who did some woodworking), or the prior owner of the house. No way to know now.

So the box of one of these labeled Carborundum is clearly an oil stone (as the back of the box instructs to use oil).

438574 438575... very dished out.

And this one:
438576438577

Erich,

The Carborundum is pretty easy :). It also shows what happens when you do not use the whole stone to sharpen. The other looks like a dual grade India, my guess one side Med the other fine. Add a strop and you have a complete sharpening system.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

The first one looks like a carborundum stone. Norton made those so it may be pre-Norton or a second brand. It is man made stone. They tend to cut fast. It looks to have a light side and a dark side. Not sure if that is just a stain or if one side is coarser than the other.

The second looks like a two sided India stone. India stone is a Norton trade name for aluminum oxide sharpening stones.

Though my carborundum stones are occasionally put to use, my India bench stone usually sits idle. Some of my India stone slips and speciality stones do come in handy.

jtk

[Erich Weidner]

Erich,

The Carborundum is pretty easy :). It also shows what happens when you do not use the whole stone to sharpen. The other looks like a dual grade India, my guess one side Med the other fine. Add a strop and you have a complete sharpening system.

ken

But what is Carborundum? Dual grade India... what is that in waterstone grit speak? :)

Flatten with the same methods as waterstones?

[Jim Matthews]

You can tell a lot just by touch.
Run your finger over the sides of the stones.

Start with the roughest, finish with the smoothest.

Strop until it shines.

[ken hatch]

You can tell a lot just by touch.
Run your finger over the sides of the stones.

Start with the roughest, finish with the smoothest.

Strop until it shines.

Jim,

You cut to the chase :). Pretty much tells the story of sharpening.

Erich,

Waterstones have made us "grit crazy", the grit makes no never mind, For getting a great working edge I'd add a Black Arkansas as a polishing stone to the two synthetic stones and you would be set.

To kinda answer your question the course stone would be around 100 grit and the fine stone 300 to 400 grit.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

There are many different grit comparison charts available. They do not always agree on different aspects of how an abrasive particle is measured.

Here is one:

438585

And another:

438586

The second one doesn't cover oilstones.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I'm not trying to be flip about this.

Most of my oilstones came from the local flea market, unidentified. After flattening them, the tops felt the same.
(I used the same plate to flatten all.)

The "raw" sides were a good estimate of (relative) roughness.

[Erich Weidner]

Do you flatten these the same as waterstones? i.e. can I just use my DMT diamond plate? Or would this cause issues with flatting waterstones after.

[ken hatch]

Do you flatten these the same as waterstones? i.e. can I just use my DMT diamond plate? Or would this cause issues with flatting waterstones after.

Erich,

I would start off on something like a cinder block to get it close, then the diamond plate to finish. Any time you flatten a course stone your flattening plate will wear faster than when working on a fine stone.

ken

[Jim Matthews]

I would just use the undisturbed side of the Carborundum stone. It's so far out of flat on the dished side as to be pointless. (They're inexpensive, and your time is irreplaceable. )

Get a "file brush" to keep your Diamond plate clean.
I use WD40 and that makes a handy solvent, too.

Flatten stones in reverse order - from fine to coarse.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Carborundum is Silicon Carbide, usually called Crystolon (Norton brand), one of the hardest / fastest materials for sharpening. These usually leave a rougher surface and cut the fastest.

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/What-is-a-carborundum-Stone-W25.aspx

That said Saint Gobain Abrasives uses "Carborundum". Every time I see a Saint Gobain stone, it includes "Norton" so they may be related in some way these days.
https://www.carbo.com/en-us/sharpening-stones

That indeed looks to be a course / fine stone. They work very well when you want to shape something quickly. If I wanted to purchase a new one, I would get something like this for $24 delivered:

https://www.amazon.com/Norton-Abrasives-Crystolon-Combination-Benchstone/dp/B00CQ884UW

The other stone is an India stone that uses Aluminum Oxide. This does not cut as fast but leaves a finer finish. Often you see a combination Crystolon / India stone

[Jim Matthews]

This is a good question.

*IF* the same plate is used, scrub oily residue off with Simple Green or some concentrated soap before flattening a waterstone.

DON'T DO THIS IN YOUR KITCHEN SINK.

[Erich Weidner]

OK. So the reason I was trying to figure out what I had was due to spousal request. She asked "Do you have an oil stone I could use?"
"Well, I have some stones in a bag from my grandfather that I've never used. Pretty sure they are oil stones", I said.

Just watched the video of her hobby so I understand what she wanted. The goal is to sharpen calligraphy pen nibs. The instructor is using a hard Arkansas stone (Norton brand I see) with water to sharpen these nibs.

Can you use water with an oil stone? I'm assuming the reason he uses water is for not mucking with the ink the nib will be flowing later (I have no idea, but would guess oil residue might be a problem).
Hard Arkansas is a fine stone as I recall. Makes sense for the teeny bit of metal being removed.

I'm further assuming that there is reason not to use a water stone, just probably that the whole setup of soaking/flattening/mess is why this gentleman is using water on an oil stone. I'm also guessing that if there is a problem using oil stones with water (clogging pores?) given how little stone is being used... it maybe isn't a problem.

Either way, my oil stones are not what she needs. But maybe I should buy her a small one if just using water is fine and easy.
Or would the dual sided India stone work?

[Stew Denton]

Eric,

I would not use my diamond stones to flatten those. They will be tough on the diamond plate by going after the nickel that holds the diamonds.

I asked the same question a few years ago, and was advised to go flatten on the sidewalk.......which I did. Took a while but did get to a workable degree of flatness.

Stew

[Jim Matthews]

"I would not use my diamond stones to flatten those. They will be tough on the diamond plate by going after the nickel that holds the diamonds."

Citation, please.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

OK. So the reason I was trying to figure out what I had was due to spousal request. She asked "Do you have an oil stone I could use?"
"Well, I have some stones in a bag from my grandfather that I've never used. Pretty sure they are oil stones", I said.

Just watched the video of her hobby so I understand what she wanted. The goal is to sharpen calligraphy pen nibs. The instructor is using a hard Arkansas stone (Norton brand I see) with water to sharpen these nibs.

Can you use water with an oil stone? I'm assuming the reason he uses water is for not mucking with the ink the nib will be flowing later (I have no idea, but would guess oil residue might be a problem).
Hard Arkansas is a fine stone as I recall. Makes sense for the teeny bit of metal being removed.

I'm further assuming that there is reason not to use a water stone, just probably that the whole setup of soaking/flattening/mess is why this gentleman is using water on an oil stone. I'm also guessing that if there is a problem using oil stones with water (clogging pores?) given how little stone is being used... it maybe isn't a problem.

Either way, my oil stones are not what she needs. But maybe I should buy her a small one if just using water is fine and easy.
Or would the dual sided India stone work?

The only abrasive I have used on fountain pen nibs is very fine such as the 12K Micro-Mesh and the 1micron and .3 micron Mylar paper

https://www.gouletpens.com/collections/pen-tuning-supplies

Much depends on intent, I think. Off hand, i would strongly urge you to NOT use the stones that you have. Your stones are not nearly fine enough and you do not want loose grit getting into the nib. If you want a stone, buy one of these, they are NOT expensive:

https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/pocket-stones/

Verify that they are large enough for her uses first, of course. I believe that the Norton Hard is a translucent, but she probably does not need a stone that is 8x3

https://www.amazon.com/Norton-61463654464-Sharpening-Stones-Size/dp/B004IZQTQM
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Hard-Translucent-Arkansas-Bench-Stone-P50.aspx

I would probably not use oil because then I would need to carefully wash the nib as opposed to just let it dry.

Interested in exactly why they are polishing the nib on an oil stone. Is it a one time tuning thing, or is it an ongoing polishing thing.

Andy

[ken hatch]

The only abrasive I have used on fountain pen nibs is very fine such as the 12K Micro-Mesh and the 1micron and .3 micron Mylar paper

https://www.gouletpens.com/collections/pen-tuning-supplies

Much depends on intent, I think. Off hand, i would strongly urge you to NOT use the stones that you have. Your stones are not nearly fine enough and you do not want loose grit getting into the nib. If you want a stone, buy one of these, they are NOT expensive:

https://www.danswhetstone.com/product/pocket-stones/

Verify that they are large enough for her uses first, of course. I believe that the Norton Hard is a translucent, but she probably does not need a stone that is 8x3

https://www.amazon.com/Norton-61463654464-Sharpening-Stones-Size/dp/B004IZQTQM
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Hard-Translucent-Arkansas-Bench-Stone-P50.aspx

I would probably not use oil because then I would need to carefully wash the nib as opposed to just let it dry.

Interested in exactly why they are polishing the nib on an oil stone. Is it a one time tuning thing, or is it an ongoing polishing thing.

Andy

Andy,

We call them oil stones but water works as well, depends on what you start with when the stone is new. A better name would be Arkansas or Washita stones. The advice to buy a new stone from Dan's is good, get a Hard Black, I expect a small one would work and use water to float the swarf. BTW, a lot of the old timers just used spit, not that I recommend it.

I expect the reason for using "oil" stones is the surface does not break down as easily as a synthetic water stone. Of course I could be wrong as I've never sharpened the nib of a pen :p.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

You could also buy her a pocket knife (pen knife) and search for a few sites on how to make a quill pen from a feather:

439182

Seven years ago my grandkids had fun making and using quill pens using feathers that came from our geese when they were molting.

Found a link > http://www.flick.com/~liralen/quills/quills.html

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

You could also buy her a pocket knife (pen knife) and search for a few sites on how to make a quill pen from a feather:

439182

Seven years ago my grandkids had fun making and using quill pens using feathers that came from our geese when they were molting.

Found a link > http://www.flick.com/~liralen/quills/quills.html

jtk

My Co-Teacher made a fountain pen from a feather. When professionals do it, they usually harden the tip using heat. Generally they heat up sand and then the tip remains usable for longer. I have never invested that much time with a feather. I have also made dip pens using straws (as one example). I usually just give them some pens that they can use and then take home, but they are mostly kids who could not afford them without having their parents chip in.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Andy,

We call them oil stones but water works as well, depends on what you start with when the stone is new. A better name would be Arkansas or Washita stones. The advice to buy a new stone from Dan's is good, get a Hard Black, I expect a small one would work and use water to float the swarf. BTW, a lot of the old timers just used spit, not that I recommend it.

I expect the reason for using "oil" stones is the surface does not break down as easily as a synthetic water stone. Of course I could be wrong as I've never sharpened the nib of a pen :p.

ken

Washita would be too coarse (I expect), but I am still very curious why they are using an oil stone. I have never seen a stone used to do this, only high grit mylar (or similar) to polish the tip for a smoother writing experience. These are generally far finer than I expect from an oil stone; I have used less than 1 micron. After this is done once, I generally do not need to do this again. I have only done this with a "normal" fountain pen as opposed to a calligraphy pen of any type (dip, wide nib pen, a fountain pen designed for calligraphy, etc). Then again, I am NOT proficient in calligraphy even though my friends and family (who do not know any better) seem impressed with what I produce.

[Erich Weidner]

Interested in exactly why they are polishing the nib on an oil stone. Is it a one time tuning thing, or is it an ongoing polishing thing.


Here is a link to the info/video. I know next to nothing about the pens/nibs. She is the (steadily advancing) calligrapher. My involvement to date has been to use forestner bits and the drill press to make ink pot holders out of scrap wood. :)

https://john-stevens-italic.newzenler.com/courses/italic-variations/contents/5f271b73b44e9

(https://john-stevens-italic.newzenler.com/courses/italic-variations/contents/5f271b73b44e9)Let me know what you think. If you are a pen nut and/or calligrapher. I'm sure she'd be interested in what to use. FWIW, this is the first I've been aware that pens need sharpening... but looking at the link it seems to be about creating a bevel. So looks like sharpening to me. :)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Login required to see the video :-)

I have only done things like..

Adjust the nib so the two sides are even.
Increase the width of the cut on the nib (never had to make one less wide)
Polish the tip so it is smoother (less drag)

I do know of people who shape the nib, but that is way outside what I can do.

[Stew Denton]

Jim,

I did a search and could not find the post.

As I thought on it, I realize that my memory of the advise given is not great, but I do remember with certainty that the advise was "don't use the diamond stones" and am very sure that wearing out the stone was the reason. I may very well be wrong about the carborundum getting after the nickel part, however, because I am now doubting whether that was written or not. I am sure that I took the comment that way, though.

However, I do recall with certainty that I was advised to flatten the dished out stone on the concrete.

I did use our concrete driveway to flatten the stone I was asking about in that post, and it did fairly well. However, it was not a fast process because the stone was dished out significantly. The place on the concrete where I worked on the stone did get smoother, and the cutting action slowed noticeably.

I am not too worried about the slowing of the concrete cutting action, however, because I only have a tiny number of dished out carborundum stones left, maybe only 2 or 3 more, but I have a drive way that is about 50 feet long to a 2 car garage. So, I should be able to flatten all of the carborundum stones I have. Not only that, I will have lots of driveway left over after flattening every carborundum stone that needs flattened.

Stew

Stew

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Probably the best solution is to just find someone near you who has a suitable oil stone that you can try. Too bad you live so far from me!

[Erich Weidner]

Probably the best solution is to just find someone near you who has a suitable oil stone that you can try. Too bad you live so far from me!


I'll probably just buy her a hard Ark. stone and see how it goes. Yeah, you are far. :) I'm from Western Pennsylvania and with COVID was thinking about driving home to visit Mother. Just too dang far. I'll be flying. Good news is tickets are cheapest I've ever seen from Austin to Pittsburgh. (Then the almost 3 hour drive to get to the boonies that are my home town) :)

[Scott Winners]

Late to the party but that dished oil stone might work real well on lawnmower blades. Just saying. Somebody was using that stone to do something other than sharpen chisels and planes.

I didn't actually get the stone, but I saw one of the stones that belonged to a distant relative a couple generations back who was a professional meat cutter, that was not a flat stone.

I wouldn't flatten it, but I would hang on to it a few years to see if there wasn't something aroung the house to not use the good stones on.

[Jim Matthews]

I am not too worried about the slowing of the concrete cutting action, however, because I only have a tiny number of dished out carborundum stones left, maybe only 2 or 3 more, but I have a drive way that is about 50 feet long to a 2 car garage. So, I should be able to flatten all of the carborundum stones I have. Not only that, I will have lots of driveway left over after flattening every carborundum stone that needs flattened.

Stew

Stew

I think this is an important point of agreement.

Most of us will only flatten one heavily dished stone.
Afterwards, the cost of a new one seems a decent value.

I use the same Atoma 400 plate on Waterstones down to 220 grit and Oil stones down to 400.

My coarse stones all had the factory finished when I got them, so the plate is for maintenance.

The plate still cuts quickly and cleans up with soap and water.