Pocket hole jig recommendations for production trim

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have a portion of a job coming up in the next handful of weeks where I’m planning to preassemble about 30 windows (+ dozens of doors) worth of casing trim and am considering pocket screws on the back side of the casing where the leg and head / bottom casing joint comes together. This trim will not be mitered but instead the head piece will cap the end of the leg piece (ie: butt and pass.) The material is a rougher grade of stain grade prefinished White Pine (not my selection)...I’m trying I mitigate small gaps in the joinery should the material shrink after install and the heat in the building is turned on. I know that you can’t eliminate wood movement, but my thought is that if I mechanically fasten the joint between horizontal and vertical, when it moves the outside edges of the wood will be more free to move than the inside edge where the joint is and therefore be more likely to move along that edge and not open up my joints.

I have done entire houses of preassembled mitered casing with either biscuits and glue or dominos and glue in the miters and this worked well, however we all know how weak an end grain to edge grain glue joint is and this doesn’t seem like a worthy approach for this style of trim.

I have no practical or hands on experience with pocket hole jigs and am looking for some guidance and direction on what to consider for my application.

I don’t need a Cadillac or anything motorized or automated, but I would prefer it to be stout and well made. I’m sure I would end up using it for the occasional cabinet face frames that come up from time to time so keep that in mind with the recommendations.

I will be assembling the casing / doing all the cutting and trim “joinery” on site likely on top of a flat 4x8 assembly table.

Thoughts?

[Dave Sabo]

I’d suggest a biscuit joiner and some of these:
https://www.rockler.com/striplox-griplox-20-biscuits-25-pack

You’ll realize all kinds of time advantages. They will also have some room for movement as well as some gripping strength. A DeWalt or PC biscuit joiner can be had for less than $200. Makita makes a cordless one if that’s your battery platform.

[Paul F Franklin]

IIWM, I'd get a foreman machine. (I know you said you didn't need a machine...I just think you should want one). For one thing, the trim would be flat and horizontal; ideal for working with long trim. For another thing, in a few seconds it clamps the work and bores the pocket; it will save you a *lot* of time. Third point: good dust collection; no having to brush chips off the jig and workpiece after every hole. Fourth point: it's not that much more expensive than the high end jig setups.

I bought mine for a much smaller project than you are talking about, and never regretted it a second.

[Kevin Jenness]

Dominos would be a better choice in my opinion but you would need a number of long clamps or face frame clamps for production given your head casing layout. Pocket screws without glue on prefinished material may show more joint movement than you would like.

If you are set on pocket screws I would recommend a Castle TSM-12 manually operated benchtop machine. I have an old Porter Cable 330 that is basically the same machine- simple, rugged and fast. I far prefer the lower angle routed pockets (6 vs 10 degrees) as they shift less when driving screws. I get the best results clamping endways as well as down across the joint before screwing.

One thing you might consider to make installation easier is backing out the material in the center with a dado blade or router to span over irregularities between the extension jambs and wall surface. You would have to do stopped dados in the head casings and adjust the pocket depth- I do this on my machine by using a substitute thinner table. In my house I have the head casings fit between the sides so I can run the dados through and the tops of the side casings don't show. I pre-fit and assembled the sill, casings and jamb extensions for each opening as a unit.

[Dave Sabo]

Why no love for the biscuit joiner? It eliminates the need for expensive equipment, jigs, clamps and time. They have dust collection too and the system has a bit of wiggle room built into it

I’d use a domino too, but I have one already and $1200 is going to be a big spend for a job like this if you have to go buy one.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I don’t see a biscuit joint of end grain to edge grain being mechanically strong enough to resist the joint from opening up from expansion and contraction. Maybe I’m wrong...?

I don’t own a Domino, but have used one many times before. This isn’t the project or reason to buy one and honestly, up to this point, they don’t fit into my work flow enough to justify the cost personally, though that may change.

The main reasons I’m thinking pocket screws is for the mechanical connection at the joint, not many clamps / waiting around on glue to set up and all the clamps and space that takes up, and speed of assembly.

Il sure the Castle TSM - 12 is the machine to get if I were doing this every week, but I can’t justify $1200 for this at the moment.

There is a used Porter Cable 550 on eBay right now for $250 obo. Any good? Worth looking into?

[Kevin Jenness]

Biscuits are quite capable of holding a casing butt joint together. If the casing width doesn't mesh well with #20's you can cut overlapping slots and trim the biscuits to get gluing surface near the edges.

I suggested dominos because you said you had used them in the past so I assumed you had one, plus dominos are slightly better at keeping the surfaces flush. Pocket screws without glue are expeditious but not as strong and creep-free as a glued joint.If you can offset the joint surfaces by having the head casing thicker that would give you some margin for error, a good thing when using prefinished stock. If the edges are eased at all a flush joint is not going to look good.

The machine I have is actually a PC 552, which I paid $300 for. The 550 has a laminate trimmer for the pocket cut as opposed to a PC690 and you have to drill the pilot hole with a hand-held drill, so definitely slower. You may be better off with a Kreg Foreman if you don't mind the steeper pocket angle.

Nice work on your website by the way. I like the end grain prints.

[Lisa Starr]

Phillip, Go with your plan for pocket holes. My entire home's trim is done that way and I've never had a joint move. I just use a basic Kreg 4 jig and it has proven easy and quick to use. Feel free to PM me if you'd like detailed info on screw locations and other things I learned doing it this way.

[George Makra]

Biscuits are highly underrated and IMHO Festool Dominos are highly overrated. (BTW I have both and use them).
But in this application the OP asked about pocket hole devices. And I assume that he is looking for a fast no muss no fuss solution.

So here is my opinion the Kregg pocket hole jig works though you get what you pay for.
I have the Castle TSM 12 and I love it but its about 1200.
Google Castle 100 pocket hole machine its about 500 but well built and wont cause you aggravation using it.
The Kregg and Shop Fox seem to be kind of cheesy.

[Bradley Gray]

I think you are correct to go with pocket screws. Even with the small Kreg jig the process will be faster than any method requiring glue.

Also, if you encounter any fit issues you can easily take a corner apart.

[Clark Hussey]

[QUOTE=George Makra;3043738]Biscuits are highly underrated and IMHO Festool Dominos are highly overrated. (BTW I have both and use them).
But in this application the OP asked about pocket hole devices. And I assume that he is looking for a fast no muss no

I have used booth biscuits and dominos and there is no comparison

The problem with biscuits is they don’t offer any strength to the joint. Plus their nasty habit of swelling and telegraphing to the surface. The only time I will use biscuits is for alignment. Dominos do offer significant strength to a joint. (There are many videos available comparing biscuits and dominos strength)

I just don’t use the biscuit cutter anymore

[glenn bradley]

Pocket holes are not a regular part of my work but, they are great for certain situations and can help with unexpected requirements. That is to say I have drilled and screwed enough of them to be experienced in their use. Based on this, by the time I did "30 windows (+ dozens of doors)" worth of frame joints I would be begging to buy a motorized unit. Still $450 for a Kreg Foreman would take quite a bite out of the profit or budget as the case may be. The multi step process required by something like the Castle 100 would steer me clear of that. A machine should eliminate steps.

Given that, a Kreg rig will probably land in your sites. The vertical requirement of the Kreg K4, K5 and the like may or may not be an issue. I am not clear on the length of stock you are dealing with or your overhead clearance in the shop. For more than a hole or two you will want built in dust collection. I have gotten by without it since I do not use pocket holes in the manner you are talking about. An inexpensive Kreg 320 or even an R3 may get your through the project. If I went that route I would cast dust collection to the wind. Like some freehand routing processes, just mask up and let it fly. Clean up afterwards ;-)

[Brian W Evans]

I have the Kreg K3 system and use it for most shop projects. Joints are very strong and fast. The K5 master system is only $129 - much cheaper than any machine. With the K3, I can drill a lot of pocket holes in a very short time. I think the bigger time saver on this project vs a machine is to have a system for aligning and clamping pieces. Kreg sells a clamping table top for this purpose, but you could easily make something similar.

[Phillip Mitchell]

All good comments here. Much appreciated.

The trim casing pieces will range in length from around 3 - 8 ft, seems like having to stand them up vertically to drill a pocket hole would be a pain on something that long. Space / headroom isn’t an issue on site (huge vaulted ceilings) but simply trying to get it aligned square in the jig with an 8’ 1x6 board seems like a potential downfall.

Anybody got a used Castle TSM 12 they want to sell me?? :D

[Richard Coers]

The strength of pocket screws depends on the length of thread engagment, glue, and density of the wood. Get just a couple of threads into soft pine and you don't get nearly the strength of a biscuit. Clamping will be paramount to a quality joint. I'd suggest you do some strength experiements before buying any big equipment.

[Mark Bolton]

If I werent in panic'd rush I'd be looking for a decent used horizontal boring machine. Biscuit would be a waste of time and never hold the joints together especially if they were going to be raised from horizontal (bench) to vertical or transported to a job. Disaster. Tight domino's would be fine, overkill, still require some clamping. Pocket screws will not handle a lot of movement/racking/transport either.

A horizontal boring setup with a couple of dowles (preglued or not) would give you the absolute best face registration and zero l/r registration to account for on assembly. If you dial in your dowel to hole size clamp time would be in the seconds range I would guess.

[Mark Bolton]

Here's your machine if its still available.....

https://youtu.be/fubgN8TD1YE

[Dan Hahr]

Taking the time to properly set up dust collection would be a great benefit especially in time management. If not wood chips will affect the placement of the next boards and you will constantly be blowing or sweeping away sawdust or chips. Not a big deal if you’re doing three or four but if you’re going to be drilling for hours I would definitely use whatever dust collection feature you might have available.

Dan

[Earl McLain]

Crazy thought as i read Glenn Bradley's comments on the need to stand up the workpiece for the Kreg K4 or K5---but if i was going to use mine in this application and with a bunch to do...would it be worth rigging up a horizontal mount so the work is laying length-wise? Just some quick ideas on how it might work shouldn't take an hour to build. Mount the jig on a stand at 90 degrees clockwise from "normal" (if right handed) so the casing could stand on edge and the drilling could kind of be from the side. I may try that just for kicks this weekend--seems like it would work, and for narrow stock that drill angle would be easier on my shoulder!!
earl

[Lisa Starr]

Phillip, You don't have to vertically hold the long pieces of trim with the
kreg system. I just leave the piece of stock on my work surface and lay the jig over the end of the stock. Quick, easy and no headroom issues.

[Bruce Wrenn]

First, I wouldn't pre assemble off job site, but assemble on job site. Instead of drilling pocket holes in styles, drill them in head piece. Fabricate a table with clamps to hold pieces when assembling. Because you have many to do, consider getting two pocket hole jigs, one stationary, and the other adjustable depending upon the length of the head piece. Just my two cents worth.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Bruce,

I am already planning to do all the trim work including assembly on site. I have a few 4x8 assembly tables that I plan to modify as necessary for proper clamping / work holding.

I could be wrong, but my gut tells me that screwing from the end grain direction (stile) into the long grain direction (head casing) has better screw holding power than screwing from across edge grain into end grain. I know with structural applications (think large structural screws) you need about 25% deeper embedment if screwing into end grain as opposed to screwing into long grain. This could be different for trim applications as I’ve never really used pocket screws for much so I’m new to this particular party.

Thanks for the comment.

[Phillip Mitchell]

As for having to stand the stock vertically in order to drill the pocket, I only made that comment based on watching the video for the K5 on Kreg’s website. Sounds like that’s not strictly necessary and there are some work arounds for drilling with long stock laying down.

As much as it sounds like this is a production operation (it is a large commercial job site so it kind of is), I’m ultimately looking for a balance between relative speed of assembly, joints that stay tight, and money out of my own pocket to achieve it and don’t necessarily need the end all be all solution for this particular job. I can’t afford a $1k tool for a building worth of casing. Will there be other casing that follows later down the line and other supplemental pocket hole uses, most likely yes, but I can’t quite justify that expense to myself at this point for pocket hole joinery.

I go all out and down the rabbit hole in other areas of woodworking and machinery, but am really looking to strike that balance of simplicity, value, and quality with this particular situation. I know that means different things to different people, but I would much rather put $1k towards the upgrade of my dust collection system in my shop with a new cyclone, for example than a fancy pocket hole cutter that may see not see continuous use.

Thanks to everybody for the replies and insights. Keep ‘em coming.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Biscuits are quite capable of holding a casing butt joint together. If the casing width doesn't mesh well with #20's you can cut overlapping slots and trim the biscuits to get gluing surface near the edges.

I suggested dominos because you said you had used them in the past so I assumed you had one, plus dominos are slightly better at keeping the surfaces flush. Pocket screws without glue are expeditious but not as strong and creep-free as a glued joint.If you can offset the joint surfaces by having the head casing thicker that would give you some margin for error, a good thing when using prefinished stock. If the edges are eased at all a flush joint is not going to look good.

The machine I have is actually a PC 552, which I paid $300 for. The 550 has a laminate trimmer for the pocket cut as opposed to a PC690 and you have to drill the pilot hole with a hand-held drill, so definitely slower. You may be better off with a Kreg Foreman if you don't mind the steeper pocket angle.

Nice work on your website by the way. I like the end grain prints.

Thank you Kevin for the kind words. The end grain relief prints are really fascinating to me and something that I really want to carve out more time to explore and experiment with. I’ve been meaning to compile a bunch of process photos and post a thread on here about them as I bet many folks here would find it as interesting as I do. I would say that 90% of my print sales have gone to other woodworkers or artists of some kind, which is notable.

[Richard Coers]

I have a Kreg jig that had an integral 2 post drill guide built into it. Much faster as the drill bit never leaves the guide bushing and you never even have to pick up the drill. But I can't even find a picture on Google. This doesn't look like it will take too long to build, really quick!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiKS4tpuVQw

[Dave Sabo]

I’m guessing you (and everyone else) didn’t really take a close look at the biscuits I linked ?


They are specialized “clamping” biscuits that have quite a bit if grab. Lamello (the inventor or the biscuit joiner) has one too called the K20. They don’t swell either.

If you have a biscuit joiner or can borrow one I strongly suggest buying a box of those things and doing a mock-up. You might be surprised. I can tell you with certainty that it’ll be more efficient than pocket screws for producing the joints on your project. If you feel they don’t have enough holding power , you only invested 15min of time and ten bucks.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Ah ok, I missed that. Thanks for clarifying. Do you still need to use glue? I guess some glue would be extra insurance and that biscuit is self clamping so you could assemble with glue and set it aside with no clamps necessary while the glue dries.

What I’ve done in the past with casing preassembly with dominos required setting aside the assembled casing unit with a long pipe clamp or two on the unit to let it dry and it’s usually a bit cumbersome to move around and a sometimes a challenge to find an ideal place to let it rest and glue to dry on a you start assembling an entire house / building worth of casings. It seems like these biscuits would allow me to lay the assembled casings down somewhere flat and possibly even stack like sizes on top of each other for drying and could work well.

Is the one you linked to from Rockler the only version or do you know of others, specifically a bulk sized package? Thanks Dave.

[Jared Sankovich]

Have you considered clam clamps and HiPUR? It seems effective. I like pocket screws on jack mitered casing, and just use my castle (pc) machine for that.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Have you considered clam clamps and HiPUR? It seems effective. I like pocket screws on jack mitered casing, and just use my castle (pc) machine for that.

Clam clamps are great, but aren’t they just for mitered casing? This particular casing is butt and pass style. They also leave those little holes where the pins grip, which are about the same a finish nail hole, but still bother me in stain grade trim.

I was trying to think of a way to work HiPUR into this equation, but haven’t really figured it out yet.

I think I’m going to pick up a used biscuit joiner, try the self clamping biscuits that Dave recommended and start experimenting there. Of course, any samples I try make look great at first and I won’t know how the joint will hold up with seasonal wood movement until well after this casing is up in the building.

Has anyone else used these self clamping “serrated” biscuits? The trim is 1x4 and 1x6 flat stock. I’m wondering if I could
fit 2 biscuits in each joint? One self clamping and one normal with glue. Doubt there will be space in the 1x4, but possibly the 1x6 casing assemblies.

[Jared Sankovich]

Clam clamps are great, but aren’t they just for mitered casing? This particular casing is butt and pass style. They also leave those little holes where the pins grip, which are about the same a finish nail hole, but still bother me in stain grade trim.

I was trying to think of a way to work HiPUR into this equation, but haven’t really figured it out yet.

I think I’m going to pick up a used biscuit joiner, try the self clamping biscuits that Dave recommended and start experimenting there. Of course, any samples I try make look great at first and I won’t know how the joint will hold up with seasonal wood movement until well after this casing is up in the building.

Has anyone else used these self clamping “serrated” biscuits? The trim is 1x4 and 1x6 flat stock. I’m wondering if I could
fit 2 biscuits in each joint? One self clamping and one normal with glue. Doubt there will be space in the 1x4, but possibly the 1x6 casing assemblies.

I missed the the part where the legs just butt into the head.

I would pocket screw that all day long

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[Dave Sabo]

I guess some glue would be extra insurance and that biscuit is self clamping so you could assemble with glue and set it aside with no clamps necessary while the glue dries.


Need is subjective, but I would use glue as the biscuits while grabby, just don't have that much bearing surface to begin with. Clamps shouldn't be necessary. ( except - see below)



What I’ve done in the past with casing preassembly with dominos required setting aside the assembled casing unit with a long pipe clamp or two on the unit to let it dry and it’s usually a bit cumbersome to move around and a sometimes a challenge to find an ideal place to let it rest and glue to dry on a you start assembling an entire house / building worth of casings. It seems like these biscuits would allow me to lay the assembled casings down somewhere flat and possibly even stack like sizes on top of each other for drying and could work well.

Good idea for production, but you'll need at least two guys to accomplish the moving part. Those biscuits will not be as good as a tenon(domino) or even multiple pocket screws for shear that will occur during unsupported moving. I'd just fab the parts up and start installing in place, but everyone has a system that works best for them. If pre-gluing; I'd look for a place to leave every set unmoved while the glue sets. That'd need a lot of space.


Is the one you linked to from Rockler the only version or do you know of others, specifically a bulk sized package? Thanks Dave.
Rockler is a well known easy to deal with vendor. I got mine from Richelieu. Wurth prob. carries them too. They came loose in 50 bag, but Rockler is cheaper in the retail package. I think some Woodcrafts have them too. Think I saw a box of 10 at my woodcraft for $2 on clearance.

Lamello's K20 biscuit has even more grab, but it's difficult to find. Alternately, their Simplex biscuit might be even better for you. K20 comes in 250pc. bags. Simplex requires epoxy to glue each half in the slot and last I checked they were about $3 a joint.

https://www.lamello.com/product/lamello-system-verbinder/k20/

Colonial Saw is pretty much the only place to get this stuff.

https://www.lamello.com/product/lamello-system-verbinder/simplex/

[J.R. Rutter]

The Porter Cable 552 is great if you can find one used.

[Jim Dwight]

I have and use pocket hole jigs, biscuit joiner, and domino XL. They all have their place and their pluses and minuses. The biggest negative to me for pocket holes is they are UGLY. But they will not be seen in this application. They also like to shift as the screw is tightened. If you can clamp the joint while you are driving the screw that helps. I just put together some drawers yesterday that have a combination of pocket screws and dominos. The latter minimize shifting from tightening the former. But I would build a clamp or two into one of your work surfaces to use during assembly and you should be OK.

I do not use a Kreg pocket hole jig, I have one made all of metal that isn't made any more. But I am confident that the K5 would work fine if your budget for this tool is about $150. I think you can add dust collection but I'm not sure you will need it if you only poke a couple holes in each piece and then move to the next. Maybe you will because the dust will built up. It is a time waster to have to clean it off. The forman jig, also by kreg, would seem better for this because the trim can lay flat on the jig. It has dust collection capabilities but costs more like $500. If the budget allows, I would get that.

Biscuits will stop the joint shifting during assembly issue but add very little strength. They are obviously not self clamping so they would only work if you do not pre assemble. I prefer the strength of dominos and I think the joints are about as fast to cut but they also do not self clamp.

I think you have a good plan if you prefer to pre-assemble the trim. I would add a dab of glue to the joint too, however. I think it will not add much time and it will better assure that the joint does not open. Main question is how much you want to spend on the tool.

[Jared Sankovich]

The Porter Cable 552 is great if you can find one used.

They (and the castle) is more greater'er if you add a air clamp like on the 21/22
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[Phillip Mitchell]

Just to update what actually happened (more than a year later) -

I picked up an old Lamello biscuit joiner and initially tried the Lamello serrated plastic “self clamping” biscuits. In my test joints they did ok, but really didn’t hold the joint together that tightly. Not enough to resist seasonal movement...I was surprised with how loose they actually were and felt like I wasted the money on the box of them at the time, but maybe they’ll come in handy one day.

So I moved on to normal #20 biscuits and TB 2 and this worked great. One biscuit per joint was fine. Being that some of these assemblies were for very large windows (largest were around 80x80 and several 8’ tall doors) I came up with a method that wasn’t exactly the quickest but produced very good results and did not open up when the winter heat came on and dried everything out.

I precut all the pieces to length and also the biscuit slots for each window/door intersection but did not preassemble most of them due to size / lack of clamps on site. On windows I Installed the bottom horizontal first right to the reveal lines and nailed it a few times to hold it but still had wiggle room to tap in around a bit. Because the stock was a rough grade and rarely flat, straight and often bowed and twisted, we could not necessarily trust the edges or square cuts to be exactly that so each interaction was quickly test fit in place, scribed accordingly and then the biscuits and glue were added as the pieces went up on the wall and then quickly nailed off, which obviously gets rid of the need for clamps. A handful of the joints were good and square without scribing but this material was so bad that almost every intersection needed scrutiny and some amount of scribing. When I say scribing, in this case I mean cutting a slight angle off of 90* one way of the other on the miter saw to match the edge it was mating to, but still a “straight” cut. This added some time, but produced tight joints that did not open up.

Thankfully I was getting paid hourly for this work and did not select or buy the trim material or else I would have been screaming.

[Michael Schuch]

I picked up a used Porter Cable bench top pocket hole machine for a couple hundred $. It does a nice job and is very quick but the hold down clamp and the bracket holding the hold down clamp isn't tall enough to allow it to be used on "2 by" lumber which is a major disappointment! Most of what I use pocket holes for is shop shelves, shop cabinets, etc. which I make out of "2 by" stock jointed and planed to a common thickness. I will rework the hold down and bracket so I can use the Porter Cable for this some day.

The standard Kreg jig does handle "2 by" stock without a problem and is fast enough for most things. How many pocket holes are you talking about here?

When I did external decorative frames around windows I found through splines on 45 miters worked well, were relatively fast and have held up very well for 10+ years of weather now. I glued all the mitered corners together with the splines longer than the joint then came back after the glue had dried and trimmed off the extra spline protruding from the joint with a flush cut pull saw. The frames I built had a grove detail in them which is why I had to miter the corners.

For butt jointed frames I would expect pocket holes and glue would be plenty strong enough and a MUCH quicker joint since you don't have to clamp the joint while the glue dries. To me pocket holes sounds like a good approach. The Porter Cable pocket hole machine would rip through these pocket holes VERY quickly. I would clamp a couple of perpendicular guide fences to the top of the PC pocket hole machine table so I could quickly put a piece of stock perpendicular to the main fence and quickly bore two pocket holes, one against each perpendicular fence. If you have a lot of these pocket holes to do I would expect a bench top machine could probably pay for itself in time savings pretty easily. If you had less than "eh" about 100 pocket holes I would expect the Kreg jig would work fine.

I reread your original post:
30 windows x 2 pockets per joint x 4 joints per window = 240 pocket holes. That is about where I would expect a bench top machine to start paying for itself??? ...depending on how much you pay for the bench top machine. The Kreg pocket hole assembly clamps do make assembly much faster and really help keep the two pieces lined up and level with each other while driving in the pocket hole screws. The Porter Cable pocket hole machine makes the screw hole quite close to perpendicular which greatly reduces the chances of the two pieces slipping from one another while driving in the screws. I would probably use titebond III in the joint to keep water and debris out of the joint. I agree with you, white pine for external use would not be my first choice!