Air Compressor Quandry

[Greg Johnson]

I am going through the agonizing process of evaluating the need to upgrade my compressor. I currently have a PC pancake compressor that has served me well. I plan to continue to use it, but would like to be able to do a bit more with air. Primarily I would like to be able to get into some HVLP spraying and use some of my tools as they were intended. Cost/Benefit analysis is causing sleepless nights....:confused:

So, I am currently looking at the IR SS3L3 which is 60 gallon stationary compressor. It seems to be the greatest value (quality, features and price) I can find. My question is how people have plumbed stationary units like this. Northern Tool has a Filter/Regulator/Lubricator for $170 which seems very expensive to me. Grizzly has a similar unit for $45. I was thinking of plumbing to a T-block with a Filter/Regulator/Lubricator on one side which would be used for tools. The other side would be a filter and regulator which would be for spraying and blowing. Am I on the right track here, or can these Filter/Regulator/Lubricators be used safely when spraying by just shutting off the lube? Do you keep seperate hoses for tools and sprayers?

Also, I was wondering about noise. My understanding is that these units are fairly quiet. I could install it in a building adjacent to my shop, but it would entail a lot more plumbing.

One more question....(for now).... my shop is unheated and in the Pacific NorthWet... Do I need to take any special precautions with regard to moisture?

OK.... One last question....I currently have the following tools:
16 gauge PC finish nailer
15 gauge Hitachi finish nailer
PC Framing Nailer
1/2 impact wrench
HVLP Husky spray gun
3/8 Husky ratchet

With the addition of this new compressor, what would be the next tool you would add? In other words.... Help me out on this Cost/Benefit process :rolleyes: ..... I want to sleep well after I finalize this transaction with Northern Tool....:o

Thank you for any feedback,
Greg

[tod evans]

greg, i`ll address the spraying question; do not use the lines your oil mist travels through to spray finishes. the oil will cause you problems...02 tod

[Steve Stube]

I would agree with Tod and go one step further and not contaminate any hose with oil drip from a lubricator. I put a couple of drops of oil in the tool inlet before use, connect the hose quick disconnect at that point and go to work. I have a few lubricators that take up space in a drawer after seeing a slug of oil run from one of the hoses used with it - maybe 40 years ago.

Using compressed air for driving tools is expensive but it does have some advantage in a few ww applications, spraying finishes, nailers/staplers. In the later case setting the pressure allows you to seat the fastener the way you like. I have more metal fab tools that I use air for and especially like drilling sheetmetal using an air drill over the other options.

[Jim Becker]

I have that compressor...it's a peach. Nice value and good machine. I almost bought from Northern Tool, but at that moment, Tractor Supply had a nice sale on it that even with tax was a few dollars less than NT and I could pick it up.

I'll pile on relative to the lubrication. No way, not in a woodshop...and even if you do a separate run for such things...to the garage, for example...oil does have a tendancy to, umm...wander.

One thing I did do with my piping system (copper) was to put a special drop for spraying that includes both additional moisture control and a separate regulator. It was a convenient way to make spray setup easy, even with the bit of extra cost for the filter and regulator.

I also recommend an auto-drain...mine is an IR that I got off "that auction site" for about $70. (I think it was a previous model or something)

[Jerry White]

Jim, I will take a liberty and pile on Greg's question here. I am also looking at this compressor and I have not been able to find spec's on the noise that this machine generates. I'd be surprised if your ears are calibrated in decibels, but how would you subjectively rate this thing on noise, as opposed to an oilless 20 gallon unit (which is NOISY).

Thanks for your input. Its a big help. And Greg, thanks for a timely question.

Jerry

[Greg Johnson]

Thank you for the replies regarding the lubricator. I'm glad I asked.... I would have just bought it because it was there :o. That makes the plumbing a lot simpler for me.... A simple regulator and filter cuts down on the expense... a bit.

So I am still working on the cost/benefit analysis. I have done several very nice wood projects in the past and then botched them up with a poor finish. I am looking forward to learning how to use a sprayer and improve my finishing skills. This is only for personal use. I built my own home about 25 years ago and am now starting at one end and working my way to the other, room by room. I have gotten a taste for air tools and I don't know how I built this home without air nailers. Ohhhh.... that would have made things easier. Kitchen cabinets will probably be a year from now. Any testimonials that you can share about how a good compressor made a huge difference in your life, will help me with my anguish over this decision.... I know that my 1/2" impact wrench and 3/8 ratchet will actually work with a larger compressor, but are there some other tools I should be considering. Are air sanders any better? I now use a cheap Ryobi 5" random orbit sander that works ok... but the motor is starting to sound a little weak.

Thanks for your responses,
Greg

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I will take a liberty and pile on Greg's question here. I am also looking at this compressor and I have not been able to find spec's on the noise that this machine generates. I'd be surprised if your ears are calibrated in decibels, but how would you subjectively rate this thing on noise, as opposed to an oilless 20 gallon unit (which is NOISY).
Well...it's certainly a different sound from the oilless that I used to own (and sold to another SMC member for "a good price")...the sound is deeper and not as intense. But honestly, I don't really hear it much 'cause it's in my DC closet which is sound insulated and baffle-vented. I will not say it's quiet, but it's acceptable, especially considering it doesn't run all that often, even when I'm spraying finish. That's one of the real benefits of the larger tank...you have a lot more air to work with at pressure before the thing kicks in!
-----

Greg, air sanders can be nice in some respects, but many of them require more air (SCFM) than this unit can supply. And many of them don't have provisions for dust collection. I may consider a small angle sander (Grex) for use at the lathe where I collect via a hood when sanding, but not for my flat work. There, the Festool sanders get the nod for so many reasons.

[Mike Deschler]

Gregg:

I am in the process of setting up my IR 60 gal compressor and am waiting for a auto moisture valve which I just ordered. I feel that this is perhaps the most important item to add as my compressor will experience wide temperature swings. It turns out that they generate a lot of moisture especially if the compressed air is very warm and the tank is cold. IR says 32 degrees min for operation. Forget the oilers inline, that is a bad move and do as others have said and that is to oil individual tools as needed. I picked up a neat filter/regulator at HF today. Go to http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=1118
Copy this ad and take it to your local store and have them price match. I also had a 20% coupon so I got 2 for approx $16ea.

As far as noise goes, yes they are noisy and I am working on some ideas as to how to minimize it under my conditions.

Keep us posted as to how you are doing.

[Rob Will]

Greg,
I agree with all the other posts about not using a lubricator. Put two drops of oil in the tool's air fitting.

As far as hooking up the compressor I would not attach anything directly to the compressor except a 1" shut off valve. From that point put a JIC fitting in the valve and run a peice of hydraulic hose over to a steel pipe fastened to the wall. (This really does not have to be that heavy)(the JIC swivel ends are nice if you can get them with lighter hose). Personally, I like to keep this main feed hose fairly large along with the pipe going up the wall. I think this helps condensation drain back to the tank. My shop is 1" pipe and I did a friend's shop with 3/4" pipe.

Anyway.....I would continue up the wall all the way to the ceiling.
At the ceiling I would put a 90 or a tee.

From this point you can use plastic pipe especially formulated for air service. In our shops we run the main line along the outside wall at the ceiling and put in a tee whereever we want an air drop.

Attaching drops.......weld a peice of flat metal to a 4' iron pipe. the flat metal is wide enough to hit 2 wall studs (etc) with lag bolts. On the bottom of the pipe use a 45 degree elbow. Put your female quick couplers there. Mount the whole thing at a convienent height.

Do not buy air fittings at places like Harbor Freight....they are junk.
If possible put an air drop adjacent to your outside door.
An air hose reel is nice close to the door.

Saftey note: Technically, PVC pipe is dangerous for air service. The special air pipe is formulated not to shatter. Having said that, if the pipe is up out of the way.......there are a lot of SCH 80 PVC air systems that work just fine...... But I'm not naming any names.

The only place we use plastic is along the cieling to feed the drops.

Water drain. YES! I would add a short pipe to the tank drain to make it easier to get at. Those little radiator drain style valves are often a problem.

Rob

[Rob Will]

Greg,

For the air nailers, I sometimes use a small regulator that has a male coupler on one side and a female on the other. That way you can plug it in wherever you want....even on the end of a hose.

Another method is to mount the filter / reg on a board. This can be screwed to the wall next to a drop and plugged in with a short hose - whenever you want regulated air. This also would allow the regulator to be disconnected for service etc.

I have painted many cars with a small regulator mounted right on the paint gun (made for that purpose). For finishing, I think it responds better than a regulator mouted on the wall or at the compressor.

I think you will get less water in the system if you don't come directly off the compressor. A few pieces of pipe can really save you a lot of steps, look nice, and improve safety.

.02 Rob

[Barry O'Mahony]

The book "Setting up Shop" has a good chapter on running compressed air lines in a woodshop and discusses the importance of metal piping that condenses out the moisture. This diagram is also good at showing how to run drops and where to put drains: http://www.tptools.com/statictext/airline-piping-diagram.pdf

[Rob Will]

A picture is worth a thousand words huh?
I would suggest that Greg look closely at the beginning and end of the air system shown (in the diagram that Barry sent). Personally, I don't think Greg will have all the complexity of the system shown.....but any rigid piping is better than a hose plugged into the compressor. I agree with the concept of this diagram 100%.

Good luck,
Rob

[Paul Campolieta]

As you plumb in the compressor just add a water seperator at regular intervals you don't need a seperate oiler for your system. I have heard of other guys puting their compressors in a unheated room and they work fine What I do is drain my air lines every 2 or 3 days or if I know I won't be using it for a while I drain everything including the compressor. I drain the compressor at least once a week. I always add a drop of oil into the tool make sure you get air tool oil do not use motor oil or transmission fluid. I used to won an automotive repair shop and we used airtools for everything in 20 years of business I have owned 2 compressors this is a good track record for something used daily (btw the first compressor was from the dinasour time) Also make sure you have shut off valves in certain locations so you can shut off sections of the air if you have to. When I shut the shop down I sold the compressor to a fellow in the autorepair business and it's still working daily (4 years ago)

[tod evans]

greg, the issue of air sanders that you raised......i wouldn`t give up my air random orbit for 10 high-end electric! it is far more ergonomic,much faster and way less tiring to use, just ask any auto-body shop, they use theirs 8hrs per day. as for sprayguns get the best you can afford you`ll be glad in the long run. just your kitchen job will justify both the r/o and a good gun.
spend a few minuits reading this thread it should prove enlightening;
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=27462
tod

just checked out the link barry provided. this is the correct way to install airlines,please read the second page...tod

[Chris Damato]

Hi,

I thought I read somewhere that if you plan on spraying finishes with your compressor, it was better to have an oiless model. Is that true? i would love to get rid of my oiless model for one that is a bit quieter.

Thanks,

Chris

[tod evans]

chris, go with the oil bath compressor hands down. any paint store carries a coalesing filter made by motorguard install it right before your paint line tap and you will be oil free..........02 tod

[Steve Stube]

Greg, if you were to do any autobody repair there is one more big plus as I see it for using compressed air and that is for wet sanding. Air driven ros (jitter bugs) and board sanders are MUCH safer to operate than the electric variety around water. I refuse to use an electric sander to wet sand - too easy for your only experience to be your last experience.

[Greg Johnson]

Wow... Thank you ALL for taking the time to post all this information. This is a great site. I am very close to pulling the trigger on this addition to my shop. I am going through the Pre-Buyers remorse of parting with my hard earned cash. I have been accused of squeaking when I walk and that moths fly out of my wallet when I open it, so this decision has been very hard on this old Swede.... Thank you again for taking the time to inform an "air neophyte" about the intricacies of implementing air in a home shop.

Greg

[Barry O'Mahony]

just checked out the link barry provided. this is the correct way to install airlines,please read the second page...tod
tod, thanks for the reminder; the second page is a good discussion of the benefits of propewr metal piping.Another article on the same concepts, scalled down for the home shop, is at http://www.taunton.com/FWN/FWNPDF/011160051.pdf if you happen to have a subscription.

[Steve Stube]

I agree that the TP link Barry provided can give some useful pointers but it isn't without flaws IMHO. First off what is there motive, to sell black iron piping kits. What is the one thing besides air delivery that the whole system is designed for - to prevent water getting to your tools, right? What is the most corrosive material of those mentioned in the article, black iron. Now if you can filter out rust do you not think you could filter out galvanize particles, should there be some. Why introduce the wet compressed air to black iron? I put copper air lines in because I happen to think it is the best for my shop. Much of my system is NOT exposed (I wanted it that way) but even exposed I don't see a problem with it any more that black iron in so far as damage is concerned. I have a real objection with their statement that "soldered joints can come loose under pressure (safety hazard)" being anything more than a scare tactic used to promote the black iron kits. And if keeping water out of the system is the aim why is there no expansion chamber and water separator immediately following the air receiver and before it enters the black iron piping system. Without chilling you may not capture all the water at that point but I think you could get the majority of it. BTW copper is a better thermal conductor than black iron. Just my 2 cents FWIW.

[Greg Johnson]

Steve,
Now I am going to preface this with the fact that I am a total novice when it comes to plumbing air :o . Having said that, I have sweated a few copper joints in the last few years and it would concern me if they couldn't handle 135lbs. Water hammer can cause pressures well beyond that and water doesn't compress. I know a well designed system should not have water hammer,.... but it happens.

So, I am a little confused about the black pipe standard as well. It rusts immediately. I know what old galvanized pipes look like. Copper seems to be the logical pipe to use. I will have minimal plumbing in my application, but I am just curious about this as well.

Greg

[Frank Chaffee]

Greg,
Steve Stube has it right regarding copper. Why I ever put 100’s of feet of black and galvanized iron pipe 12 foot above a plant floor is a question that I cannot answer. Was it because I wanted to climb ladders and scaffolding carrying my half of a 21 foot weight, and wrestle pipe wrenches up to 24” long?

When we built the last 40,000 sq. ft. addition and got a SullAir rotary screw compressor, I watched our local plumbing contractor sweat copper pipe for air distribution and I just said to myself “Wow Frank, do you feel smart today?” I had to answer no.

There are many good threads on air systems in the Creek, but I will bring a few of my thoughts together here. Corrections will be humbly and gratefully accepted.

Use a flex connector between your compressor and the shop lines.

Put a ball valve and filter near your compressor and run a line to the ceiling. This is where tod evans actually makes a manifold of pipe to act as a dryer.

Once near the ceiling, slope your line slightly downwards away from the compressor. At the end of the line elbow down and run the line to near the floor. Terminate the end line with a ball valve and provide enuf space for a bucket to blow/drain water into.

At each point along the main line where you want a drop, tee up several inches and double elbow down. Again, terminate the descending line with a ball valve for draining water. Tee horizontally off this drop and install another filter and a regulator. This filter can be smaller that the one near the compressor.

I remember having used lubricators before the rubber hose. What I would do now in a one or two person shop is put a couple drops of oil in the tool as required. For air tools that may be run for hours at a time, there are available little cup oilers with a reservoir that attach at the tool and provide a constant light oil mist.

Where to put your compressor is a choice based on weather, space and how noise affects you. Jim Becker, Frank Pellow and some others have put their compressors (and cyclones I believe), in noise insulated closets. When I get to my “real” shop in Arizona, my compressor and cyclone will be in an insulated cabinet outdoors.

Have fun Greg!
Frank

[Barry O'Mahony]

Steve,

I like the TP link for the concepts they explain as to how the runs should be constructed and the benefits of metal. In their defense, black pipe seems to be most used in commercial shops. But I went with type L copper (or I will once it is finished). In my climate, any chance I can to avoid something that will rust is a good thing. In a home shop I think Type L should be enough to resist danage. From the research I've done, soldered joints on 3/4" pipe are far stronger than needed, if you use lead-free solder.

I've read about the "danger" of soldered joints melting in a fire. Well, if you have a fire hot enough to melt lead-free solder in your shop, then what happens to your air piping is the least of your worries. Teflon degrades at high temperatures, too.

I've been soldering since I was a kid, so making up the connections is no big deal to me. I know when I've done a good solder joint just by looking at it; I can't say the same about all the threaded-with-teflon-tape joints I've done.