Veritas LA/BU planes or Custom planes?

[Dan Kraakenes]

Im considering upgrading my single plane to more dedicated 4,5,7 planes.

Im currently used to a #4, but I have to large hands for it, so was first thinking of upgrading to a 4 1/2.

But.. then again I am wondering if I should go for the Low Angle / Bevel up planes or the "Custom" Veritas planes.

All of them have much more room for my hands.. but Im not sure which is "better". Anybody have extensive use with both?

The Veritas LA/BU are the same.. just different name for it?
The Veritas Customs are Bevel Down..

Both have "freestanding" handle and adjustable mouth.


Im also finally getting a dedicated shooting plane, so that won't be a consideration this time.


Veritas has 3 different LA/BU smoothers... what a mess. Im considering the LA one of them.
Could anybody tell me what is the difference between these 3 are??

[Jerome Andrieux]

Three LV LA smoothing planes: small #3, medium #4 and large #4 1/2. Pick the size that fits your work, your hands should be ok anyhow. The larger one blades are the same size as the jack’s or the jointer’s. It could be nice to swap blades.

You can’t really go wrong with LV LA planes.

[Derek Cohen]

Dan, I did a major review of these planes here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes1.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Bassett]

The advantage to a bevel-down plane is you can use a chip-breaker. (Setting it requires some skill, but it's the ultimate tear-out control mechanism.) LV has some non-custom BD planes too. (Also, for LV money LN BD planes are in play.) A lot is feel and personal preference.

[Curt Putnam]

The BU tote style, hated and loved in probably equal numbers.is particularly well suited to large hands. Said totes are available on the custom plane series. For my hands (considered large @ 4.25" across) these totes are infinitely more comfortable than a Stanley tote. Others disagree.

[glenn bradley]

The BU / BD debate may take you off track of what you are asking. Whether my hands are large or small would not determine my use of a narrower or wider iron (No 4 versus No 4-1/2). If the No 4 is crowded for your hands the tote config on the Custom No 4 may solve that. Since you are used to BD/chip breaker planes you may want to stick with that. I have both and use them differently. A BU with a steep angle and a BD with a close chip breaker can both handle tough figure. I like the result of the close chip breaker on most figured woods but, would not want to choose my 'users' based on the exception rather than on the rule.

[Jim Matthews]

Regardless of your eventual choice, the upcharge for PM V-11 steel is worthwhile.

[Warren Mickley]

Buying a bevel up smoother is like buying a tricycle. Yes, it works. Yes it is easier to learn. No, it is not what you want in the long run. No, you don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on it.

Buying a double iron plane is like a bicycle: a better long term investment.

[Tony Wilkins]

Buying a bevel up smoother is like buying a tricycle. Yes, it works. Yes it is easier to learn. No, it is not what you want in the long run. No, you don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on it.

Buying a double iron plane is like a bicycle: a better long term investment.

so what would a unicycle be?

[steven c newman]

Single iron wood body....with a tapered iron, at that.

[David Bassett]

so what would a unicycle be?

I'm going with chisel. (I'm sure, with enough skill, you can flatten and smooth a board with one!) :)

[Jim Koepke]

Whether my hands are large or small would not determine my use of a narrower or wider iron (No 4 versus No 4-1/2).

A #4-1/2 is a slightly longer plane. In the Stanley/Bailey design, not only is there a bit more space, the tote is also larger.


so what would a unicycle be?

A standard angle bevel up block plane? That or a side rabbet plane.

jtk

[Dan Kraakenes]

So..
Custom BD for more experienced.
Chipbreaker - a bit more cumbersome sharpening.


BU/LA for beginners or a lot of tropical wood.
No shipbreaker - faster and easier sharpening

[Josko Catipovic]

Maybe I'm one of the great unwashed, but I don't get the BU stuff. I compared my #7 Record with a LV #7 BU on some tricky white oak. Both blades sharpened together and similarly. Tearout difference was night and day. Admittedly, I know my Record well, but still, I could not get the BU jointer to come anywhere close. I later learned that it would have done better with a steeper-ground blade. It seems one needs to get several blades for each BU plane.
That said, I do get tearout occasionally with my BD planes, but have learned to either clean it up with a scraper or sand it out.

[lowell holmes]

Google "Bedrock Planes". I have a set of them and they are really great.

[Prashun Patel]

I think the bu statement about beginners and tropical woods is not right.

Sadly, this cannot be known until you work with them for a while. Both can be made to work at the highest level.

I do believe that beginners are (finances allowing) best off buying a high quality, broad appeal plane, like a standard #4,5,7 or the Bevel up jointer or Jack. The resale on the Veritas bevel ups and the lie Nielsen bevel downs (4,5) is very Good (anecdotally) if you change your mind.

I own a Veritas bevel up Jack and jointer and a lie Nielsen 4. I love the ergonomics on all three. The 4 bevel down does resist tear out, but I have lately been working a lot of straight grained wood and have learned how to read that, so the low angle planes work well in the right direction. Their lower center of gravity feels great and allows me to control edge jointing well. I have 3 blades that I can switch between the two. They are heavy, so they can get fatiguing for thicnkessing, but I use power tools for that.

And the bevel down #4 is just brainless to use. When smoothing, I want the tool to be smarter than me. I get best results planing with the grain. But if I make a mistake, it won’t tear out (properly set)

Your choice will ultimately be personal.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I recommend bevel down planes because they can do all tasks well, and don't require installing new blades and reconfiguring when you want to change tasks (end grain vs. long grain with tricky grain, etc.). You just have the one blade, sharpened at the same angle every time. It's sharpened at an angle that is easy to freehand, easy to maintain the correct camber.

The only task the BU planes have any advantage on is end grain, and only if the blade is honed at 25 degrees. That 25 degree blade is a liability on long grain unless it is just really straight grained, easy stuff. The advantage on end grain is small and not worth getting too excited about, maybe unless you are doing stuff like surfacing end grain cutting boards. In that case I could see keeping one BU bench plane around, a LA jack perhaps, and just keep it with a 25 degree blade for heavy end grain work. An inexpensive Kanna is another good option for end grain work like that.

My reservation about the Veritas custom BD planes is the Norris adjuster. I'm sure it works ok but the Bailey style is superior IMO. So that would steer me towards Lie Nielsen, though I am not the biggest fan of A2 irons. I prefer either V11 or high carbon steel (I have a Hock O1 in my LN #4).

[Christopher Charles]

Hi Dan,

I'd recommend the #4, 5, 7 combination. If you don't buy all premium, a vintage #5 will do everything a premium #5 will do, with or without a replacement blade. A well tuned chipbreaker is a wonder but not hard to achieve. (fwiw, I have LN #4 and vintage #5 and #7 stanleys with hock/pmv blades. And the LV shooter, which I definitely recommend).

Best of luck.

[Jim Koepke]

So..
Custom BD for more experienced.
Chipbreaker - a bit more cumbersome sharpening.


BU/LA for beginners or a lot of tropical wood.
No shipbreaker - faster and easier sharpening

Most of the Bevel Down irons are easier to sharpen freehand. If one wants, the chip breaker can be slid back on the blade while sharpening. Stanley may have suggested this is some of their publications.

My Bevel Up blades are thick enough to experience stiction on a flat water stone.


That said, I do get tearout occasionally with my BD planes, but have learned to either clean it up with a scraper or sand it out.

A way of overcoming tear out that works for me is to have the plane's blade as sharp as possible and to take a shaving as thin as possible. In some cases there is still a part of the surface with a satin finish from reversing grain. It has worked to then take a shaving or two in the opposite direction to turn the satin feeling area into a glossy area.


I think the bu statement about beginners and tropical woods is not right.


I'd recommend the #4, 5, 7 combination. If you don't buy all premium, a vintage #5 will do everything a premium #5 will do, with or without a replacement blade. A well tuned chipbreaker is a wonder but not hard to achieve.

Agreed.

For many years my LN LA BU Jack was mainly used for shooting. Now with a Veritas Shooting Plane it doesn't get a lot of work. Since shooting planes are made left or right handed my LA BU Jack will likely be saved for those times when it is better to do the shooting from the other side.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Im currently used to a #4, but I have to large hands for it, so was first thinking of upgrading to a 4 1/2.

Dan, where do you call home? You may live near another member who is willing to let you take a test drive with their planes.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

I recommend bevel down planes...

My reservation about the Veritas custom BD planes is the Norris adjuster. I'm sure it works ok but the Bailey style is superior IMO. So that would steer me towards Lie Nielsen, though I am not the biggest fan of A2 irons. I prefer either V11 or high carbon steel (I have a Hock O1 in my LN #4).

Though sometimes I enjoy the feel of using my BU jack, I find BD planes easier to use (once you solve them*). *which isn’t hard but is slightly harder than BU in my experience.

I agree with you on the Norris adjuster. I bought a 5.5 custom and I’m given it as much time as I can stomach but the adjustment still feels kludgey to me. I’m also trying a pmv11 blade in my LN 4 but it’s too early to say if I consider it a huge boon.

[Dan Kraakenes]

Thanks for all the replies!!

I put in a order yesterday for the Veritas
BU Smoother
LA Jack ( shouldn't I just call it a BU Jack???)
BU Jointer
Scrub plane

And for the savings compared to the LN 4 1/2, 5 1/2, 7, I got the Veritas Shooting plane for "free"..

All with PM-V11 steel.


I purchased a 60 1/2 block, 102 Block, Large shoulder and router plane from LN though.. vastly prefer the looks of those.
So now all my planes are actually BU... I figure I will become very proficient in sharpening microlevels. :P
And cambers



But it felt kind of strange after ordering them, seeing so many of you suggesting BD planes, even after owning and using BU planes for years.


.

[Jim Koepke]

But it felt kind of strange after ordering them, seeing so many of you suggesting BD planes, even after owning and using BU planes for years.

My BD planes are all older Stanley/Bailey planes. They were much less expensive when most of mine were purchased. Other than the #1 & #2 they were all less than $50. Only the #8 cost $50. Most were less, even my #10-1/4 only cost $25.

Of course, none of my planes look anywhere as nice as a new plane.

Besides, if you got the LV planes with the same size blade you can have one set of blades to use in all three planes.

jtk

[Erich Weidner]

And for the savings compared to the LN 4 1/2, 5 1/2, 7, I got the Veritas Shooting plane for "free"..

All with PM-V11 steel.


I'm not super experienced. But I love my Veritas Shooting plane. I've only done the initial sharpening and so far it cuts great after 4 projects (PM-V11 blade).
I actually used the LN shooting board plans to make my shooting board. Also very happy with it.

I have 2 bevel up planes from Veritas, but I have yet to even remove the factory rust preventing oil from them. :)

[Dan Kraakenes]

So.. with the wealth of knowledge here.

What recommended angles should the different Bevel up / Low Angle planes be set up with, for their "normal" tasks.

Smoother Nice grain:
Smoother Difficult grain:

6-8degree camber per Derek Cohens writeup
Jack: Nice grain:
Jack: Difficult grain:

Jointer Nice grain:
Jointer Difficult grain:

[Warren Mickley]

I have used these angles for over forty years:

Smoother 45 degrees, 42 degrees

Jack plane 43 degrees

Trying plane 43 degrees

Jointer plane 45 degrees


The lower the angle the better, but there needs to be roughly 12 degrees of clearance. Having the bed at 45 degrees gives some cushion for a higher honing angle, whether by design or from sloppiness. The lower the bedding angle, the more precise the honing angle needs to be.

[Dan Kraakenes]

For Bevel up / Low angle planes?

[Derek Cohen]

My Veritas Custom #7 has a 40 degree frog/bed. The Veritas Custom #4 has a 42 degree frog/bed. Blades for both are honed at 30 degrees. 10- and 12 degrees clearance. Never been an issue. The strike block plane I built is bevel down with a 37 degree bed and a 25 degree blade (12 degrees clearance).

I recall that Leonard Lee wrote that 7 degrees was the lower limit for clearance.

I understand and agree with the reasoning that a lower cutting angle should leave a smoother finish. I also can take a BD and chipbreakered plane where a BU plane cannot go. Yet I cannot fault the finish on local hardwoods off a Veritas BU Smoother with a 62 degree cutting angle. And for many years high cutting angles were my first choice and more than excellent on serious interlocked wood ... which I very much doubt is seen by the average woodworker.

I find it interesting that we obsess so over planes to such a degree. I do love it as much as the next person, but it is all so overkill ... once the finish is on, who can tell ....

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

I think u are talking about the blades not beds, which aren’t adjustable on the bevel ups anyway. I experimented with angles and ended up doing 25 with a micro. You can do a 35-40 for difficult grains if you wish but I find it hard to push. I prefer the bevel down in that case.

Imho, start with the basic, 25 and a micro (optional) and hone your sharpening skills. A sharp 25 trumps a dull 35 any day.

If and when you want a steeper blade, I'll echo advice I was given (I think by Derek): do all your primary bevels at your basic (25 degrees) angle, and use the micro bevel to adjust the steepness.

[Jeff Ranck]

I have a old stanly #5 set up with a very curved iron that I use as a fore plane, a LV BU jointer, a LV BU jack, a LV custom #4 (set up as in Derek's review), a Lie-Nielson #3 (50 deg. frog). I use them all, but for different things. As far as smoothing goes, the LV custom #4 does the "best" overall smoothing job. However, my preference is for a smaller smoother and prefer the size of the #3. I wish LV made the custom plane in a #3 size. So often, I find myself reaching for the #3 simply because I prefer its size. For smoothing, I prefer the BD irons and would recommend BD irons for smoothing. (However, that said, I really like my BU jointer and am not sure that I'd trade that for a BD plane. I like the BU geometry of the plane and find it easier to use as a jointer due to its lower center of gravity. I use my BU jack as a "small jointer" and not as a jack plane is typically used.)

I've used my BU jointer as a smoothing plane (before I had the #4 and #3). It worked ok, but the BD planes that I have perform much better as a smoother.

If your main concern is handle size, the LV custom planes have a few handle options and if none of those work for you, it would be pretty easy to make one to fit your hand. Personally, I would change plane type to the LV custom plane rather than go to a 4 1/2 smoother.

I would like to reduce the number of planes that I have to maintain, but so far am unwilling to part with any. Sooner or later, though, I probably will eliminate one or more. I like having only three bench planes to maintain.

[Jeff Ranck]

I find it interesting that we obsess so over planes to such a degree. I do love it as much as the next person, but it is all so overkill ... once the finish is on, who can tell ....
Derek

Absolutely agree!

[Derek Cohen]

I have a old stanly #5 set up with a very curved iron that I use as a fore plane, a LV BU jointer, a LV BU jack, a LV custom #4 (set up as in Derek's review), a Lie-Nielson #3 (50 deg. frog). I use them all, but for different things. As far as smoothing goes, the LV custom #4 does the "best" overall smoothing job. However, my preference is for a smaller smoother and prefer the size of the #3. I wish LV made the custom plane in a #3 size. So often, I find myself reaching for the #3 simply because I prefer its size. For smoothing, I prefer the BD irons and would recommend BD irons for smoothing. (However, that said, I really like my BU jointer and am not sure that I'd trade that for a BD plane. I like the BU geometry of the plane and find it easier to use as a jointer due to its lower center of gravity. I use my BU jack as a "small jointer" and not as a jack plane is typically used.)

I've used my BU jointer as a smoothing plane (before I had the #4 and #3). It worked ok, but the BD planes that I have perform much better as a smoother.

If your main concern is handle size, the LV custom planes have a few handle options and if none of those work for you, it would be pretty easy to make one to fit your hand. Personally, I would change plane type to the LV custom plane rather than go to a 4 1/2 smoother.

I would like to reduce the number of planes that I have to maintain, but so far am unwilling to part with any. Sooner or later, though, I probably will eliminate one or more. I like having only three bench planes to maintain.

Jeff, I am fascinated by your commentary ... did I write this and use another name? :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

A #4-1/2 is a slightly longer plane. In the Stanley/Bailey design, not only is there a bit more space, the tote is also larger.

Thanks for that Jim. I was unaware. I always appreciate your knowledge and experience with these things ;-)

[Dan Kraakenes]

So.. If one has a Scrub and a Shooting plane.

Which of the three Bevel Up / Low angle Smoother, Jack, Jointer, is the most "useless" and could be swapped out with a Bevel Down with Chipbreaker.

[Jim Koepke]

So.. If one has a Scrub and a Shooting plane.

Which of the three Bevel Up / Low angle Smoother, Jack, Jointer, is the most "useless" and could be swapped out with a Bevel Down with Chipbreaker.

My reply would be the smoother.

The Jack and Jointer are more for working rough lumber to dimensional pieces. The smoother finishes the surface and hopefully can overcome any of the light tear out from the previous planes.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

So.. If one has a Scrub and a Shooting plane.

Which of the three Bevel Up / Low angle Smoother, Jack, Jointer, is the most "useless" and could be swapped out with a Bevel Down with Chipbreaker.
A lot of people use their bu jack for shooting and a cambered jack is often serving the same purpose as a scrub; the question is then, what are you going to use a jack for? If you don’t have an answer then maybe you don’t need either bd or bu. The chip breaker rediscovery of recent years means that the reason many used a bu smoother may not be applicable. I personally prefer a bd jointer because the height of the plane makes it easier to feel vertical.

[Rock Eulo]

So.. If one has a Scrub and a Shooting plane.

Which of the three Bevel Up / Low angle Smoother, Jack, Jointer, is the most "useless" and could be swapped out with a Bevel Down with Chipbreaker.

I had the BU Jointer but didn't like it for the simple fact I couldn't use it as a straight edge while I worked. I now use a LN #7, much better for me.

[Jeff Ranck]

Derek: Maybe I've just learned too many things from you. I guess my own experience mirrors yours. :)

[Dan Kraakenes]

Bevel up: Smoother, Jack and jointer.

Use 25 degree blades in all 3
Camber the blades 6-8degrees
Microbevel to 50-60ish degree

Plane through anything with nearly zero tear out..


Do we concur?

[Robert Hazelwood]

Bevel up: Smoother, Jack and jointer.

Use 25 degree blades in all 3
Camber the blades 6-8degrees
Microbevel to 50-60ish degree

Plane through anything with nearly zero tear out..


Do we concur?


You will be planing everything with a 60-70 degree cutting angle. Not so bad for final smoothing but I wouldn't want it for a lot of other planing tasks- limits depth of cut and is kind of nasty on softer woods. So you end up wanting additional blades ground at different angles, etc.

I don't think you will much enjoy cleaning up the face of a scrub-planed board with 1.5 thou shavings at a 65 degree effective cutting angle, for example. That's where a nice BD try plane would shine.


To answer your earlier question, if you have a scrub and a shooting plane then the one BU plane I'd keep would be the jack. I'd just keep a 25 or 30 deg bevel on it and use it for end grain tasks and wasting material away where you want more control/refinement than the scrub plane allows.

[Erich Weidner]

I had the BU Jointer but didn't like it for the simple fact I couldn't use it as a straight edge while I worked. I now use a LN #7, much better for me.


Can you please elaborate on the statement "couldn't us it as a straight edge"? I'm not sure I understand. :)

[Erich Weidner]

So.. If one has a Scrub and a Shooting plane.

Which of the three Bevel Up / Low angle Smoother, Jack, Jointer, is the most "useless" and could be swapped out with a Bevel Down with Chipbreaker.


Other than my block plane I have no experience with BU planes. (And I'm just edging out of beginner phase... so take appropriate grain of salt).

I have a LN #5 BD with cambered iron, and a LN scrub (obviously with cambered iron). I don't consider them interchangeable. The scrub worked great for planing down a board edge that I had an inch or so of material to remove. I've done the same with the #5, though with the less aggressive camber it takes longer.

My scrub plane was actually the 2nd premium tool I bought. For a few early projects I tried to use it, where in my recent experience, has shown I should have used a cambered jack plane. The scrub is just way to aggressive for planing down to thickness in the face of a board (At least for me) and the blade width is too narrow so you are making many more passes, each with deep dawks.

[Winston Chang]

Can you please elaborate on the statement "couldn't us it as a straight edge"? I'm not sure I understand. :)


This is probably what Rock means: On most planes, the sole and the side are flat planes along the the entire length of the plane, and they intersect in a straight line that also runs the length of the plane. If you tilt the plane to the side, it will rest on that straight line, and you can use it as a straightedge. Plane the workpiece, then tilt the plane to the side and check for light passing underneath; if you see light, then it's not flat.

The sides of the Veritas BU jointer aren't ground flat along the entire length. They're ground flat for only about half the length, which means you can't use the tilting method to check for flatness. (It's too awkward to try to tilt it and keep just the front half -- the part where the side is ground flat -- on the workpiece.)

Here's the BU jointer:

438897

For comparison, here's the Lie Nielsen #7:

438898

[Erich Weidner]

This is probably what Rock means: On most planes, the sole and the side are flat planes along the the entire length of the plane, and they intersect in a straight line that also runs the length of the plane.

Got it. I didn't realize they weren't flat like the BD planes. I use the plane for this (checking for flat) as part of the work. That would be a big strike against the BD jointer for me.

(Funny thing is I own one, but it is still in the closet never used it... I went a little nuts buying stuff a few years back)

[David Bassett]

... That would be a big strike against the BD jointer for me. ...

Uh, I'm pretty sure you meant BU jointer there.

[Jim Koepke]

I went a little nuts buying stuff a few years back

Same here, the upside is there isn't really much left to buy. :D

jtk

[Erich Weidner]

Uh, I'm pretty sure you meant BU jointer there.


Opps. Yes! :O

[Will Blick]

To OP, you made some great choices...
While I too have learned a ton from the experienced members here...
there is many variables, so what someone complains about, is not a problem for someone else.
For example, as another poster mentioned, honing your sharpening skills is critical for BU planes, as its only the edge you have to prevent tear out vs. BD. After I really mastered sharpening, and sharpen to 15-30K on every re sharpen, tear out is a non issue for me. Now granted, I prob. I have not tried every knarly wood that Derek prob. has ;) So this has a lot to do with your success... are you working just burls or crazy figured woods? With the figure I have worked with BU has been near flawless.
The other thing I appreciate about my BU line up, is one set of blades, a few angles, but every blade can be used in every plane...change the angle, change the blade, very versatile and FAST. Covers a ton of applications with the same plane.
As many have pointed out, if you have a specific application, such as working with heavy figured woods on a regular basis, its very possible, BD is a more ideal plane. My guess, this represents a very tiny % of users.
The one benefit of BD I miss is, the ability to adjust the depth on the fly... but there is ways around that too... a depth set up jig with shims.