Suggestion - Ad subforums

[Stephen Tashiro]

People browse tool catalogs of their own free will. I wonder if subforums dedicated to advertising would attract attention.

I doubt an unsorted collection of typical ads would be interesting. The subforums would need to supply the valuable service of "good taste" - i.e. only present ads that someone with good taste has selected, perhaps only ads that members have selected. It would still need the attention of an editor to prevent duplication. I'd prefer to see an organized structure, perhaps by manufacturer or by product type.

I don't know the mechanics of how sawmillcreek.org would get paid by advertisers in this situation. It would easy for members to post links to a YouTube videos about a product, but I can't see how that would generate revenue for sawmillcreek. Perhaps the advertising would have to be real ads.

[Jim Becker]

That kind of advertising is currently prohibited at SMC specifically because there's no financial benefit and it would likely "go downhill" really fast. There are already ways for businesses to support SMC, but as Keith has noted, the world has changed and there's less interest in advertising directly on forum sites like this, despite their targeted nature. Hence, the embracing the contributor model in combination with stalwart business supporters.

[Stephen Tashiro]

That kind of advertising is currently prohibited at SMC specifically because there's no financial benefit and it would likely "go downhill" really fast.

I'm not saying to give companies free advertising.

I'm thinking of a situation where advertisers who pay the forum would agree to have their ads displayed in a subforum instead having them cluttering up all the pages or being blocked by ad blocker software. In a subforum, the ads would have the same status as messages. They wouldn't be blockable by ad blocker software. An ad would be like a single message in a "locked" thread. Members who want to comment about an ad could do that by opening a thread in another section of the forum. - but maybe this isn't technically or economically feasible.

[Anuj Prateek]

I am not sure if anyone will browse a sub-forum with ads. Personally, I check 2-3 sub-forums and rarely visit others. Well I should not generalize, interests vary between people.

I visit several other forums of various interests. Many of them are cluttered with ads.

Personally, I will prefer to pay more for ad free experience, to a reasonable limit. Current fees at SMC is pretty low.

[Stephen Tashiro]

I am not sure if anyone will browse a sub-forum with ads.

If the subforum is just a random collection of ads, I agree. That's why I think the service of "good taste" needs to be provided in some way. For example, If I want to browse a selection of DeWalt tools, I can go to the DeWalt website or the website of some retailer that lets me search on the keyword "DeWalt". I'm not likely to do that kind of browsing!

However, I would browse a selection of ads for DeWalt tools that people with good taste have selected as being particularly interesting and informative.

[Frederick Skelly]

It's an idea and it was worth suggesting as a way to help out. Might or might not work, but I'm glad you took a minute to suggest it.
Fred

[Jim Koepke]

Personally, I check 2-3 sub-forums and rarely visit others. Well I should not generalize, interests vary between people.

This is also my visiting style here.

jtk

[Anuj Prateek]

If the subforum is just a random collection of ads, I agree. That's why I think the service of "good taste" needs to be provided in some way. For example, If I want to browse a selection of DeWalt tools, I can go to the DeWalt website or the website of some retailer that lets me search on the keyword "DeWalt". I'm not likely to do that kind of browsing!

However, I would browse a selection of ads for DeWalt tools that people with good taste have selected as being particularly interesting and informative.

Let me begin by saying, it's a welcomed idea and my disagreement is purely for overall discussion.

Curated ad space on paper works wonderfully but has two practical problems. First is curated content generation and second is changing search habit of visitors. They both go hand in hand. If visitors don't use the ads then incentive (money) to curate goes down and that in turn drives visitors away. Amazon aStore which was deprecated in 2017 was similar to curated product advertisement.

Changing search habit of mass (even SMC) is a difficult endeavor. For instance, I browse Lee Valley and I can practically go through the whole catalog, filtering on the fly based on interest (form of curation). It used to work better with old website but I digress. Same is true for Amazon, or Zoro or other successfully websites. Until and unless machines (crudely ML) are curating ads based on visitor behavior, it difficult to have impactful curation.

The advertisement model suggested though is a good revenue generator, for many websites. In fact many websites run purely on ad revenue and make profit. Affiliate links are one such advertisement model, which can be non-obtructive and effective. Said that often websites get greedy and end up with obstructive ads, driving visitors away. SMC admins can determine if that is something acceptable or not. Personally, I would rather have increased fees than any ads at all. Did I say I am a big fan on Wikipedia?



Disclaimer: I started my career at Amazon in Ad space, in affiliate marketing. That's why examples have terms from Amazon. My experience is limited to those.

[Stephen Tashiro]

Disclaimer: I started my career at Amazon in Ad space, in affiliate marketing. That's why examples have terms from Amazon. My experience is limited to those.

With that experience, you know much more than me!

I'm guessing that "curated ads" refers to picking ads to display based on estimating the customer's interests. The scenario for curation that I'm thinking about is simple - something like: I respect Willy-the-forum-ad-editor's choices so I'm likely to read ads that Willy picks. Alot depends on Willy. For example, there are a few people on YouTube whose videos, I frequently browse - but only a few.

I don't understand the mechanics of how sites are paid for ads or the mechanics of how sites implement ads. Perhaps advertisers pay on a basis of display space or on a basis of number-of-hits coming from the ads. If advertisers pay on the basis of display space, they might object to having their ads pigeonholed to sub forum. If an advertiser pays on the basis of number-of-hits, I don't know why they would be particular about how their ads are displayed. It's in the common interest of both the forum and the advertiser to get a large number of hits.

It's interesting how the expanse of information leads to the demand for information-about-information. For example, there are reviews of products. Then there are "The 10 best rated...." type of articles based on picking from those reviews. There are stock-picking newsletters and there are articles that rate stock-picking newsletters etc. I think information-about-information is in high demand. Essentially, presenting a limited selection of ads is giving information about information. It's saying, I will inform you about some useful or novel or amusing information.

[Anuj Prateek]

With that experience, you know much more than me!

I don't understand the mechanics of how sites are paid for ads or the mechanics of how sites implement ads. Perhaps advertisers pay on a basis of display space or on a basis of number-of-hits coming from the ads. If advertisers pay on the basis of display space, they might object to having their ads pigeonholed to sub forum. If an advertiser pays on the basis of number-of-hits, I don't know why they would be particular about how their ads are displayed. It's in the common interest of both the forum and the advertiser to get a large number of hits.


At high level it generally falls in one of these categories:

- Paid ads: Think bill boards, and news paper ads. Similar to those someone pays website owner to display ads. This works great if you own a big shot website (overall or in a category).
- Sale based: This is affiliate marketing. Sorry, using Amazon specific example as I know how that worked. You put a link to Amazon product on website with a tag in URL. User clicks on link and goes to Amazon. Amazon session is tagged to the session. Any purchase in that session, leads to commission to website (usually 2-4% per sale). This works good for websites that have good content. e.g. Say Derek posts a link to Angle Master. There is a very good chance that someone will click on it.
- Click based: This itself gets divided into sub-types (like CTA, CTR, CPC, CPM). This is the one which is influenced by curation most. And this is the one that ends up leading to disruptive ads. Here goal is to generate clicks. Usually placement of ads in automated and gets blocked by ad blockers. Then websites realize they don't generate enough clicks, and then they post more ads and so on. I would ad, that this is the most tricky one to do correctly without annoying users.


It's interesting how the expanse of information leads to the demand for information-about-information. For example, there are reviews of products. Then there are "The 10 best rated...." type of articles based on picking from those reviews. There are stock-picking newsletters and there are articles that rate stock-picking newsletters etc. I think information-about-information is in high demand. Essentially, presenting a limited selection of ads is giving information about information. It's saying, I will inform you about some useful or novel or amusing information.


Many of these "Top Ten" websites, use a mix of all models. For instance, I searched for "Top Ten Table Saws" on Google. First link in my search result is https://www.thearchitectsguide.com/articles/best-table-saw.
In content of the page you will see "SawStop PCS175" in green color. That's a link to Amazon. In the link (after reaching Amazon website) you will see "tag=canadatag0c-20" in URL. Your session will get tagged with this. All purchases made while in session (IIRC session lasts 24 hours) will get attributed to the tag and tag owner will get commission.

On the same page you will see blocks of advertisements that keep updating themselves. These in most certainty are based on click rate. And, these are the most annoying ones.



All said, I understand how ads work but don't know how to monetize a website :). In same vein, nothing doesnot work if it has not been tried.

[Stephen Tashiro]

At high level it generally falls in one of these categories:

I don't know whether this discussion will help sawmillcreek, but thank you for helping me understand how internet advertising works.

[Anuj Prateek]

I don't know whether this discussion will help sawmillcreek, but thank you for helping me understand how internet advertising works.

You're welcome!

Don't think it will help :) but I took liberty of it being a off topic forum.

Personally, what "may" help is increasing the membership cost - but - that's for people who really manage SMC to decide. I (and possibly most) lack the real world experience of running a forum.

[Bill Dufour]

A funding suggestion currently you have to pay to see the pictures which seems fair to me and good advertising to allow the unpaid to see if we are worth joining. Maybe it already works this way and I do not know it. Would it also be possible that the unpaid will not see any hyperlinks just a generic note that there is a hyperlink here for paid members to use.
Bil lD

[Jim Becker]

Bill, there are limitations to the forum software on what can and cannot be limited by user type.

[William Chain]

With nearly all the woodworking periodicals being reduced to dumpster fires of rockler ads, this site remains an ad-free source of information on a variety of topics in the hobby. A lot of people pay nothing for this site. Some of us pay a trivial amount for yearly access to more bits. Some of us pay a little or a lot more just because. Why on earth would anyone willingly go into a subforum of just ads?

[Jim Becker]

^^^ That expressed my thoughts, too. Not only would nobody pay to advertise in a dedicated forum area, very few folks would willingingly browse it. Ad blockers are one of the major reasons we've transitioned to the Contributor model as it is.

[Mike Kreinhop]

Why on earth would anyone willingly go into a subforum of just ads?

Since it's unlikely that any of the ads would be from vendors in the greater Frankfurt area, I would never take a peek in that subforum.

[Bill Dufour]

The theory of the internet is that the articles and the ads would be targeted by the readers location and interests. maybe they could be targeted by country? As a kid my parents dropped our subscription to consumer reports since a lot of the products were not sold in California. Growing up I thought A+P markets was invented by Mad magazine just like Hudson University or Gotham City. Same with Howard Johnson's.
I have never seen a Menards or a Princess auto either but I understand that they exist?
Bill D.