Carcase vs Dovetail saw

[Mark MacLeod]

Regarding saw choices - is there a good reason to have both a dovetail and a rip carcase saw? For example the Gramercy line has both a 9" DT saw and a 12" carcase rip saw that is recommended for use for "larger dovetails". Has anyone compared them side to side and would it be reasonable to use the 12" saw as a primary dovetailing saw? My hands are big and the 12" saw feels pretty comfortable

[Andrew Pitonyak]

For me, it is only related to how easy it is, or is not, to control the saw in a fine cut. I purchased a larger saw and I hardly ever use it because I found that I strongly prefer to cut dovetails with a smaller saw. So I only use the larger saw when I really need to.

I suspect that you could cut dovetails with a really large saw if you want. If you have opportunity, try them both, it is only about the feel and how it works in your hand.

[lowell holmes]

Dovetail saws are normally fine rip tooth configuration, and cut fine straight cuts. A rip saw will cut straight, but leave a rougher edge not suitable for dove tails. Rob Lee can help you with that and you will have a new toy.

[Jim Koepke]

It depends on the user and the project. Some of my dovetails have been in 2X construction lumber. A delicate saw might have some trouble.

For many years a 12" backsaw with a thicker plate worked well for cutting dovetails.

A nice thin plate back saw from Ron Bontz now has me spoiled.

jtk

[chris carter]

Mark, I do not use a dovetail saw for dovetails. I’m 6’6” with a 6’10” wingspan and basketball hands. A dovetail saw is just utterly small for me, hard to control, and the stroke is so short I feel like I’m flossing teeth! It feels like I’m using a saw designed for a Barbie and Ken playset. So I went out on the bay and found myself an old 15tpi rip carcass saw. That’s my dovetail saw. It works great. I have zero regrets. I have not had any problem with the quality of the cut on the finished product.

[Chris Schoenthal]

While both dovetail and carcass saws are considered "ripping", the difference is usually in the tooth set. The dovetail has a much smaller offset.
As others have said, you can make dovetails with any saw, the finer the teeth, the blade thickness and tooth set will determine how much finessing needs to be done after the cut.

[Jim Koepke]

Barnwood Builders on TV cut dovetails with chainsaws.

My chainsaw hasn't been used for dovetails, only tenons for chucking something up in the lathe:

437970

It came out like this:

437972

More material was removed later from the end near the handle due to weight.

jtk

[David Eisenhauer]

I don't know where you are located Mark, but maybe one of us is within a reasonable distance and you could try out someone's 9"-10" dovetail saw to compare with the 12" saw that feels comfortable. I believe that a 12" dovetail saw is within the bounds of usefulness, especially if it has 12ppi or more. If you do buy a decent, well regarded shorter/finer toothed dovetail saw and it does not feel right, it would probably re sell for a less-than big hit on the price.

[Ron Bontz]

So how big are your hands? Curious.
Lots of variables involved, but the short answer to your question is no. Fine craftsman have been cutting fine dovetails with larger saws for hundreds of years. But as a matter of definition.....a 12" carcass saw filed rip is really a small tenon saw or a 12" sash saw. These days there are many uses of carcass or sash saw to describe saws. Example: A 14" long x 3.5" under spine saw used to be considered a "sash saw". Generally filed rip. But some will file it differently and call it a carcass saw. So who knows. :) Lots of people have obtained just the "carcass saw" to keep from buying two different saws. Lastly, depending on the hang of the saw, A very large handle may tend to look out of proportion in comparison to the saw plate size. A dovetail is certainly a finesse saw. Ultimately, what ever works best for you.

[David Eisenhauer]

After thinking more about this, one more thought. I have a short dovetail rip saw that I use for 3/16" - 1/2" thick drawer sides and backs. That is by far the most common dovetail work I do (volume wise) and that saw is great for that work, practically cuts the dovetails by itself while I drink coffee or swab sweat with the other hand. But, if I use it for cutting the tails on a clamped-up, double thickness carcase sides, it sucks. Too short, too fine and the blade heats up. Instead, I use a standard rip saw for that work. What size dovetails do you mainly cut? I used longer rip toothed tenon or carcase saws only for that work until getting the smaller one for the work that I mainly did. The longer saws work, just that the smaller saw works even better. I started with a general purpose saw purchase, then moved to a specific saw purchase as the need arose and the $ were available.

[steven c newman]

These are the two saws I use.
438004
Stanley No. 4, 14", 9ppi rip...and a Stanley No. 68.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Mark,

If you're near northeast Indiana I have a LN dovetail saw and a Gramercy carcass saw you're welcome to try.

Cliff

[Mark MacLeod]

An 8 1/2 surgical glove. The dovetail saw feels a bit like a toy but if it’s the right tool for the job

[Mark MacLeod]

That’s very kind Cliff. If a bit far. However how have you liked the Gramercy saw. What are your primary uses of it ?

[Joe A Faulkner]

So it seems the short answer is yes. Using a smaller dovetail saw for thin stock and fine, small dovetails where paring and cleaning up between pins might be a challenge is a case where the smaller saw is nice. And if you are cutting dovetails you likely will want to cut tenons too in thicker stock, but not with a 9 or 12 DT but rather a tenon. I like the smaller 12” DT saw for DT work. Smaller footprint on the bench, lighter and less heft to control

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Mark,

I use it mostly for crosscutting and occasionally for cutting tenons. I bought it at the first Handworks from Joel at the Gramercy booth. He was demonstrating how well the saw crosscut and ripped. It's been a good all around saw to keep at the bench.

Cliff

[Steve Voigt]

After thinking more about this, one more thought. I have a short dovetail rip saw that I use for 3/16" - 1/2" thick drawer sides and backs. That is by far the most common dovetail work I do (volume wise) and that saw is great for that work, practically cuts the dovetails by itself while I drink coffee or swab sweat with the other hand. But, if I use it for cutting the tails on a clamped-up, double thickness carcase sides, it sucks. Too short, too fine and the blade heats up. Instead, I use a standard rip saw for that work.

Dave, I think your method is in line with what an 18th c. joiner would have done. There is a solid argument that what was called a dovetail saw in 18th c. England was for cutting drawer dovetails, as you suggest. A carcase saw would have been used for the carcase dovetails. Really, why else would it have been called a carcase saw? What else are you going to use a backsaw for on a carcase, other than to cut the DTs?

Bringing it back to the OP's question, if a 12" saw feels good to you for case construction, use it.

[Mike Allen1010]

Mark, you've raised in excellent, practical question. As Ron and Steve mentioned, descriptions of backed, joinery saws like "dovetail", "carcass", "tennon", "sash" can be confusing. No doubt there are historically accurate definitions for traditional configurations/dimensions of these saws. However in my experience those historical descriptions aren't always uniformly applied today.

FWIW, I think a helpful way to approach this issue is considering the three primary furniture/cabinetmaking tasks for backed, rip filed joinery saws.

1) Dovetails in thinner stock (3/4" and below). Typically drawers.

2) Dovetails in 4/4 and thicker stock – typically carcasses.

3) Tenon cheeks. These are typically wider and longer than above DT sawing tasks.


IMHO, each of the sawing tasks is optimally done with a different size/configuration of saw. For me, the key metric that determines the optimal saw characteristics for these tasks is the thickness of the stock and the length of the cut. In general, thicker stock (>4/4) and longer cuts are better/easier done with thicker/longer saw plates. Why? – Longer cuts and thicker stock remove more wood, require more energy and generate more heat which can defeat a 9" long .015" thick saw plate. These cuts are faster/more easily done with fewer strokes with 14" x 31/2" w x .025" thick saw plate. Conversely, the same 9" long, .015"-.020" thick saw plate offers advantages sawing 1/2" thick drawer DTs; light and maneuverable, thinner kerf = less wood removed = faster/more accurate sawing.

In the interest of moving from bloviating about theoretical concepts to providing some practical (and hopefully usable) information to the OP, and at the risk of suffering the slings and arrows of those who may differ, my preference for these three tasks:

1) Dovetails in thinner stock (3/4" and below) -Typically drawers: ~9"-10" L x ~1'-11/2" wide x ~.015"-.020" thick

2) Dovetails in 4/4 and thicker stock – typically carcasses. 12'-14" L x ~2 1/2" W x ~.020"- .025" T

3) Tenon cheeks. These are typically wider and longer than above DT sawing tasks. ~14-16"L x ~3 1/2" W x .025" T.

Of course any of these sawing tasks can be done with any ripsaw. My only intent in sharing my preferences is to offer some guidance about what size saw IMHO, is best suited to these tasks, for those who might be sincerely unsure about what option is best for their needs.

One last general observation FWIW, my experience is as a sawyer's experience/confidence grows, they tend to prefer larger saws, and in some cases thinner plates because they have the skill to saw accurately to the layout line without damaging a the saw plate and the larger saw allows them to do that more quickly.

Obviously the reasonable people can disagree. I gladly defer to those with different experience/preferences and welcome the thoughts and comments from the many here on SMC with infinitely more knowledge and expertise than me. One additional issue relevant to those trying to decide what saw best suits their needs that I have addressed is pitch/PPI. I'm interested to hear what others have to say on that topic.

Mark thanks again for your relevant and provocative question. I hope my comments are helpful and are accepted in the spirit in which they're offered.

Best, Mike

[Ron Bontz]

Well, I don't know what an 8.5 surgical glove relates to with respect to hand width/ size. If you should be near Edwardsville, IL. and so inclined you are certainly welcome to try a few of my collection. I have a Wenzloff, Bad Axe, and Veritas. Sorry, I sold my Gramercy and lie Nielsen some time back. My hand, however, may not be the right size at 3.75" wide. Always ready to put on a fresh cup of Maxwell House. And lets not forget the french vanilla creamer. :D

[Ron Bontz]

"the slings and arrows of those who may differ,":D:D:D
That was a pretty good one.
Best wishes

[mike stenson]

Well, I don't know what an 8.5 surgical glove relates to with respect to hand width/ size

It's pretty much a large, on the larger side of large.. basically about my hand size. I have no problems with a dovetail saw, the one I use most often is an earlier LN. That's used for drawers.

[Prashun Patel]

You've got some masterclass responses below. My 2 cents...

I own a fine tooth dovetail saw and a coarser one, as well as a carcass saw and a tenon saw.

I have come to appreciate being able to size the saw to the work. A taller plate is required for a deeper cut, but makes cutting shallow, straight cuts more difficult than a well sharpened dovetail saw. The dovetail saw is easier to start too - something I appreciate on dovetails; no use marking precisely if I can't start the saw precisely.

[bill epstein]

I haven't done dovetails in awhile but settled on using my $30 Gyuchko Ryoba and then the New Concepts to cut away the waste right down to the line. In fact, the Ryoba is pretty much all I use for everything. Just the other day I had to trim about 1/2" off some 2X construction lumber and made short work with the Ryoba. For Tenons, and really anything else, can't be beat.

[Ron Bontz]

Thanks, Mike.