V3000 heats up garage

[Elaine Fraser]

Hello,

i have the Oneida V3000 dust collector in a single car garage. After using it for a while, the garage gets really warm. I have 6” pvc pipe and use only a small amount of flex hose. I don't open the doors often since we have neighbours close by. Is this normal? Is there anything I should change? I’ve had the collector about 2.5 years.

thanks for any insight,
Elaine

[Wes Grass]

It's rated at 13 amps at 230 volts. Even at 8 amps it's almost 1800 watts of heater, basically. The power has to be going somewhere.

[Jamie Buxton]

Yeah, dust collectors generate heat. A V3000 has a 3 hp motor. It draws 13 A at 230 volts, which is about 2 kilowatts. Y'know the electric space heaters that plug in an ordinary outlet? They come in various sizes, but many put out 1000 watts of heat. So your V3000 is putting out as much heat as two of those.

[Elaine Fraser]

It's rated at 13 amps at 230 volts. Even at 8 amps it's almost 1800 watts of heater, basically. The power has to be going somewhere.

ok that makes sense. Thanks for your reply.

[Elaine Fraser]

No wonder it gets so warm. Thanks for your reply. I wanted to make sure I didn’t have anything wrong. Cheers

[Bill Dufour]

Entropy, the entire universe is going to hell.
Bill D

[Chris Fairbanks]

My CV max is 5HP and it’s using a little over 3k watts. I can really feel it in my 3 car garage.

[glenn bradley]

Run your shop vac for a few minutes. Put your hand at the exhaust port. Back when we took care of houses I would use a shop vac exhaust stream to hurry along a defrosting freezer. Moving air makes friction, friction makes static and heat. After running my 2HP cyclone for quite awhile the motor is not noticeably 'hot' but, the moving air is nice and warm.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Compressing air heats it up, which is what the blower does.

[Frank Pratt]

My V5000 will significantly heat up the shop after extended operation.

[Ben Rivel]

Dang. Math sounds right, guess Ive just never ran mine continuously long enough to feel the effect.

[Andrew Seemann]

I notice it with my 3 hp Dust Gorilla, especially in the summer. If it is drawing full power, I think the math works out that it is roughly a 10,000 BTU heater, which my 7,000 BTU window AC can't keep up with. Fortunately, I generally don't run it more than about a hour at a time. In the winter, it just means the unit heater runs less.

[Andy D Jones]

If you prefer to keep the DC running between "needing" it (to avoid start/stop cycles on the motor), consider closing all blast gates, such that it moves no air. It will draw less electrical power, which translates into less heat, and a lot less heat into the shop air. It may exhaust a blast of hot air when you open a gate to use, but overall, it will heat your shop less.

-- Andy - Arlington TX

[Bill Dufour]

ALL power gets converted into heat energy. It may first do some work like moving air but that movng air will eventuall come to as stop as friction slows it down. Friction dumps the energy into heat. Noise heats up what ever it touches, light heats up what it sees etc.
Bil lD.

[Stephen Bandirola]

The calculations here are wrong, they are assuming 0% efficiency ( that means no work gets done, but we know the fans are moving air).
The power that goes directly to heat is the amount left over after the work (sucking dust) is done.

[Bill Dufour]

I will grant that the dust ending up in a bin is work and stored energy but, All the air flow continues through the filter and slowly comes to a stop as friction slows it down. I wonder how much useful work a tablesaw yields vs waste heat? Isn't thermodynamics fun.
Bill D

[Frank Pratt]

The calculations here are wrong, they are assuming 0% efficiency ( that means no work gets done, but we know the fans are moving air).
The power that goes directly to heat is the amount left over after the work (sucking dust) is done.

Practically speaking, all the energy does end up being converted to heat. If the collector is higher than the dust making machine, then a miniscule amount of the kinetic energy will be converted to potential energy when the dust is lifted to the higher level.

[Stephen Bandirola]

Lets think about this a second, you are saying that if a duct is horizontal it doesn't take any electricity (only the small amount to heat the air) to move for instance 1000cfm through a 6" duct.

I did only get a B in Thermodynamics so maybe I missed the part about getting something for free.:)

[Alex Zeller]

Simply touch the motor. A 100 watt incandescent bulb will be too hot to touch. A 2000 watt heater will blow a lot of very hot air, hot enough so you can't leave your hand in from of it. Most of the electricity is going to spin the impeller and force air to move. It's fighting the filter and other restrictions, like the duct work. Yes it will heat up the air but not to the point of a 2000 watt heater. You can do about the heat other than put it outside or duct the air outside and make a temp insulated wall to block the heat. Of course then you are subject to heat loss in the winter and sucking in hot air. Other than that keep your filter as clean as possible. A clean filter means less work for the motor.

[Andrew Seemann]

The motor isn't as hot as the light bulb because it is designed to shed the heat. That said, the total heat energy in the motor is way higher due to its mass. Heating up 50 lb of iron and copper takes more energy than a few ounces of light bulb, even if the bulb's surface temperature is higher.

2000 watts is 8.3 amps of 240V. That all ends up as heat somewhere, whether left residual in the motor, blown into the air, absorbed into the walls from sound, or absorbed as heat in the ducts and bin from friction of the air and chips moving. Heat is the only place the energy can go, except for any storage of potential energy as noted by Frank above. If you are drawing full current, you are getting more than 2000 watts of heat out of a 3HP dust collector.

Myself, at some point I will move my cyclone outside, mostly so the motor heat can dissipate outside in the summer. I will sill vent back inside, but the motor is where most of the heat is generated; there isn't that much heat added to the air in the ducts from friction compared to what is shed from the motor surface. I have limited ability to cool the shop in the summer. The air in the ducts might get cooled a little bit in the winter, but I can easily make that up with my gas unit heater. I also could use the space the cyclone takes up:)

[Frank Pratt]

The electrical energy is converted by the motor into mechanical energy the rotates the impeller. That moving impeller passes that energy to the air in the form of kinetic energy. So where does the energy end up? Some is converted directly to heat via motor inefficiency, some will go to moving the air, and a little will be lost to noise generation. As the air is flowing through the duct, friction causes it to lose some kinetic energy in the form of heat. Same with when it passes through the filter or cyclone. And finally, as the exhaust air is discharged into the room, the last of the kinetic energy will be converted to heat from friction with the still ambient air.

A 2000W motor will most definitely put the same amount of heat into the shop as a 2000W heater (assuming the air is exhausted back into the shop). Unless science has been wrong all these past decades.

[Elaine Fraser]

Simply touch the motor. A 100 watt incandescent bulb will be too hot to touch. A 2000 watt heater will blow a lot of very hot air, hot enough so you can't leave your hand in from of it. Most of the electricity is going to spin the impeller and force air to move. It's fighting the filter and other restrictions, like the duct work. Yes it will heat up the air but not to the point of a 2000 watt heater. You can do about the heat other than put it outside or duct the air outside and make a temp insulated wall to block the heat. Of course then you are subject to heat loss in the winter and sucking in hot air. Other than that keep your filter as clean as possible. A clean filter means less work for the motor.

Thanks, I’ll make sure to clean the filter more often.

[Bill Brammer]

What do you all think about putting a little bathroom exhaust fan close to the dust collector. I have an outside wall I could do that with just to pull the heat away. I’m just installing a 3 hp now and that might be a little too much heat

[Prashun Patel]

This is an opportunity to consider venting it outside. I have done that, and it is AWESOME in terms of space saving, noise reduction, cleanliness. Mine vents zero heavies outside - just noise.

[Dan Friedrichs]

What do you all think about putting a little bathroom exhaust fan close to the dust collector. I have an outside wall I could do that with just to pull the heat away. I’m just installing a 3 hp now and that might be a little too much heat

Won't work. Only a small amount of heat is directly generated at the motor due to inefficiency - the majority of the energy is converted to heat through the process of moving the air around. Even if you had a 100% efficient motor, if it drew 3HP, it would be converting all of power into heat.

[Frank Pratt]

Won't work. Only a small amount of heat is directly generated at the motor due to inefficiency - the majority of the energy is converted to heat through the process of moving the air around. Even if you had a 100% efficient motor, if it drew 3HP, it would be converting all of power into heat.

This is correct. As far as machines go induction motors are quite efficient. that 3 HP motor is only dissipating about 300W worth of heat from the motor itself. The remainder of the power will end up heating the air as it passes through the blower & duct work.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I know this in an old thread, but I think what is actually happening is the cyclone is just turning over the shop air. In your average garge, the pad is very cool, and the roof very warm in the summer. A dust collector quickly mixes all that so the "real feel" temp gets higher. It has nothing to do with electrical inefficiency, well very little.

[Bill Dufour]

I assume while the dc is dumping heat into the shop another motor is also running a power tool and dumping even more heat into the shop.
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

An electric motor is roughly 50% efficient so a 750 watt one hp motor uses about 1500 watts of input energy. The extra 750 watts goes to heat. The 750 watts goes into entrophy and thus heat.
Bill D

[Frank Pratt]

An electric motor is roughly 50% efficient so a 750 watt one hp motor uses about 1500 watts of input energy. The extra 750 watts goes to heat. The 750 watts goes into entrophy and thus heat.
Bill D

I'll qualify that. The average universal motor (the kind with brushes) is in the neighborhood of 50% efficiency. Induction motors are much better, probably about 90% for a good 3 HP motor. Large induction motors are around 95% efficient.

Steve's point about stirring up the hot air at the ceiling no doubt adds to the effect, at least in the summer. And any other motor that is running also adds heat. Assuming no exchange of outside air, 100% of the power consumed by any motor & lighting loads in the shop will be transformed into thermal energy, or heat.

If I forget to turn off the lights in my shop overnight, it can raise the temperature by about 4*C by morning. That experiment has been foolishly repeated several times :(

[Brice Rogers]

Steven B.,

This is kind of a trick question or trick situation.

When I was in Engineering freshman physics we covered the "black box" scenario. The black box was a sealed environment where everything that you put into it is still there in one form or another. So, if we have a black box that has a variety of things in it such as an air conditioner, a light bulb, a 99% efficient motor, and a dust collector, etc., and it draws (for example) 10 amps at 220 vac (RMS) how much of the power is converted to heat? The correct answer is all of it! The garage of the OP is basically a black box. All of the power going in is still there and converted to heat. So, unfortunately, your comment was not correct. But you are not alone and I'm not singling you out.

I think that if the OP could vent outside that the kinetic energy of the high speed air, etc., would go outside (the black box) and it would reduce the temperature rise. In addition, air leaks in her garage will let in cooler air to replace the air that is getting exhausted.

[Rod Sheridan]

Steve, essentially all the energy supplied to the motor is converted into heat, so somewhere from 1,500 to 2,500 watts, that’s a lot of heat in the summer.

Of course there is also gain from outside however the cyclone sure adds to the shop…..Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, essentially all the energy supplied to the motor is converted into heat, so somewhere from 1,500 to 2,500 watts, that’s a lot of heat in the summer.

Of course there is also gain from outside however the cyclone sure adds to the shop…..Rod.

Rod, I don't disagree. Around here we even heat underground well houses in the winter with a single 100 watt light bulb which will do an acceptable job to keep the frost out.

Temps can be extremely different in a tall room, top to bottom. In an uninsulated attic here for example, temps often approach 150 degrees F (65.5 C), while a concrete slab floor is generally closer to 60 degrees F (15.5 C). A tall building, like a garage, will have some degree of that, and a dust collector will turn all that air over quickly, so the average temperature felt in the lower 6' of the room will dramatically increase. If the top half of a 14' ceiling room is at 100F, and the floor at 60F, turning the air over will make the working zone all of a sudden feel like it's 80 degrees instead of the 70 it felt like before if the air was consistently layered.

Most hobby shops and even my pro shop, don't usually see motors running continuously. In my shop, we have an assortment of tools, some generating more heat than others. I'd guess the average watts lost to heat would be something closer to 200 watts based on the Kw charge from the power company for my shop. I think the t8's in my shop waste more electricity than the tools use usually. In a big shop, that's not much but you are right, it is happening.

I do notice this very thing happening in my shop when it's hot out.

[John K Jordan]

I have a 5hp cyclone in a 4x8 closet. It gets very warm in the closet. I have a large duct snaked through the trusses above the ceiling to return air to the shop.

I don't notice any significant heating in the shop, even in the spring and fall when the HVAC is not running. I suspect part of the reason is the volume of air in the shop: 24'x62' with 10' ceilings. A smaller garage shop might get quite a bit warmer.

JKJ

[Clifford McGuire]

I have a 5hp cyclone in a 4x8 closet. It gets very warm in the closet.
JKJ

I'm wondering if I should reconsider enclosing my soon-to-be-installed V3000 in a sound deadening enclosure. I was going to use pink foam board, wood studs and drywall.

Could it generate too much heat?

[Frank Pratt]

I'm wondering if I should reconsider enclosing my soon-to-be-installed V3000 in a sound deadening enclosure. I was going to use pink foam board, wood studs and drywall.

Could it generate too much heat?

As long as you have the exhaust air flowing through the closet, either to the outside or back into the shop, then there will be no worries about over heating.

Building a sound deadening room is a great idea, but pink foam board is expensive and a very poor sound attenuator. Fiberglass, or better yet, mineral wool will do a much better job & be a lot cheaper. Multiple layers of drywall will do even more to deaden the sound.

I built an insulated room for my DC & I can stand 1m from the door with the remote & cannot even hear when it turns on & off.

[Clifford McGuire]

Good tips. Thanks Frank!

[Larry Frank]

Steve, essentially all the energy supplied to the motor is converted into heat, so somewhere from 1,500 to 2,500 watts, that’s a lot of heat in the summer.

Of course there is also gain from outside however the cyclone sure adds to the shop…..Rod.

So, how much of the energy is used to move the air and where does that energy go?

[David L Morse]

So, how much of the energy is used to move the air and where does that energy go?

A large part of the shaft output of the motor goes to viscous losses in the fan. That power ends up as heat in both the air and fan housing.

The power delivered by the fan is easily calculated as pressure times volume flow. In a typical system most of that goes to viscous losses in the ducting. Those losses also result in heating of the air and the duct.

The rest of it is the kinetic energy of the moving air. When, at the outlet of the system, that's released into the surrounding air it rapidly transfers it's energy through collisions with the surrounding air molecules.

[John K Jordan]

A large part of the shaft output of the motor goes to viscous losses in the fan. That power ends up as heat in both the air and fan housing.

The power delivered by the fan is easily calculated as pressure times volume flow. In a typical system most of that goes to viscous losses in the ducting. Those losses also result in heating of the air and the duct.
The rest of it is the kinetic energy of the moving air. When, at the outlet of the system, that's released into the surrounding air it rapidly transfers it's energy through collisions with the surrounding air molecules.

I understand all the energy "pumped" into a system somehow has to come out in some way. Some systems disperse the energy through light, etc, most is ultimately converted to heat. I'm not a scientist but I know some I could ask.

JKJ