Rethinking Winder Stair

[Patrick Krekelberg]

Hi all!

We are renovating our house, and I am trying to figure out a plan for the stair. This was once a "cabin" so it was not exactly done with code in mind.

As a result, there is variance in the step rise, the treads are only 35" wide, and there are spaces we want to eliminate.

These sub-treads just had carpet glued to them, so I will take them out and replace them,

The question is - what is the best way to move forward? I'd really like to do something special, not standard bullnose treads. And I am not entirely sure what to do with the winder treads. The house is coming out pretty modern so I'd really like to get a blocky/square tread look for both the treads and nosing. We'll be aiming to match flooring using white oak and a whitewash stain.

What do you all recommend:

For the treads: should we be looking for solid white oak 1" treads with a square/eased edge, or false like these (https://scotiastairs.com/online-catalogue/03-nosing/)? I can't have too much overhang because I want the treads flush or below the sloped wall.
What would be the best way to go about the winder treads? I see the options as: (a) use flooring pieces with nosing trim - but how to match to square treads, (b) oak plywood joined with 5/4 oak stock to fabricate a nosing - but how to join?
The rise varies way too much, so when I add new sub-treads I am thinking of using varying thickness to even out the variance to be within the code 3/8" variance. Is this a reasonable idea?


Thanks all!


437937437938437939437940

[Steve Rozmiarek]

How much rise variance is there? It's usually a lot easier to fix the framing so you can use the same dimensions on the pretty parts. I recommend a 3/4" tread with a 1" bullnose attached, just good glue is fine. However, look at your riser height closely and see how thick you should be based off the top floor finished height vs the top tread height, then compare that to the bottom tread height. Something looks inconsistent height in the pictures, but it could be better in person. I personally run riser grain at a diagonal, I think most do.

[Tom Bender]

Bullnose is common for a reason. Square edges will wear in the center and look bad.

Overhang makes stairs much nicer to use, especially going down.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

How much rise variance is there? It's usually a lot easier to fix the framing so you can use the same dimensions on the pretty parts. I recommend a 3/4" tread with a 1" bullnose attached, just good glue is fine. However, look at your riser height closely and see how thick you should be based off the top floor finished height vs the top tread height, then compare that to the bottom tread height. Something looks inconsistent height in the pictures, but it could be better in person. I personally run riser grain at a diagonal, I think most do.

I meant winder grain, not riser grain. That'd look silly!

[Jim Dwight]

You need to measure (carefully) the total rise you need and the run you can have. You can google it but I think the maximum rise is 7 3/4. You divide the total rise by different number of rises (steps) to come up with a rise per stair less than 7 3/4. Then you look at the total run for that number of treads. I don't know if there are requirements for how much each tread can overlap the lower one. I only let it be an inch or so. Maybe more is OK.

This information will tell you what is possible to do within the space available. I had one staircase (my home has two) that had winder stairs and also had a couple steps with over 10 inches of rise (one was over 11 inches). The longer run had 8 inch rise per step. But the treads were also extra wide (done by nailing and glueing flooring to the back of treads). So I had space to do it right. After doing the math, I tore the entire staircase out, cut new stringers, and put up the new staircase. It was a fair bit of work but wasn't really that hard. I didn't need the winders, I just needed normal tread width and a rise of about 7 3/8 per step.

It may be possible to eliminate your winder steps but it depends on how many rises you need within the space you have. You would have to reframe the stairs to eliminate them. The only way to know is to do the math - which takes little time. You can get a good idea with crude measurements but before making sawdust I would get the rise and run available within no more than 1/8 inch.

[Mel Fulks]

I think max rise is 8 , or 8 and 1/4 , which is crazy tall. I used to make stairs often. Did one winder that treads had to go to
a square newel , still makes my head hurt.

[Mel Fulks]

I meant winder grain, not riser grain. That'd look silly!

Steve, I spent 10 minutes trying to make sense of that !

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Steve, I spent 10 minutes trying to make sense of that !

Lol, sorry Mel! It would be a striking look though...

For the dimensions debate, the old rule of thumb is tread depth plus riser height equals 18". Steeper stairs feel better with a shortened tread and a taller riser. Code dictates nearly everything now though, and it says tread least a 11", so steep stairs cannot be built and be compliant.

One old carpenter trick to share when building framer stairs, use 2x12 as the treads. Cut the stringers so the riser fits behind the tread. Use 1x8 for the risers, and you have 1 1/2" of wiggle room to set the riser height and still not have a gap between riser and tread. Allows riser to be between 5 3/4" and 7 1/4" with no ripping of riser width. That's the range the risers have to be for code, and it makes a comfortable stair. I personally can feel a riser height varience of 1/4" pretty easily, so I make my stairs to be exactly the same rise per each. Mind the top one and finish floor height. Not really to hard to make a good set of stairs, but it does take some planning.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Steve. The old books show 5 and 1/2 ----12 as the ideal. But I don't remember making any lower than about
7and 1/2 by 11. I know I've walked at least one 5and 1/2 X 12 in an old museum house, It's comfortable walking .
Not in any way climbing. I tried several times to sell that to folks building lavish homes. All rejected it. I blame
physical fitness for the "rise in the decline " of fine stairs.

[William Hodge]

438099
Evening out the rise is a good thing to do. It's amazing that as little as 1/4"makes stairs feel awkward.
What are you doing for a handrail?

[John Gornall]

I would do whatever it takes to get rid of the winders. Put in a landing and add 3 steps at bottom. Or resolve the rise and run so maybe add 2 steps. If keeping the winders the hand rail should be on the right going down. If on the left a person that relies on hand rail ends up on the point of the winder step with little room to place their foot. Been thru this one - now have landing.

[Tom Bender]

It seems that no architect ever designs a straight set of stairs for a house. There is always a turn. It may make some kind of sense but not to anyone who has to move furniture up or down.

[Patrick Krekelberg]

How much rise variance is there?

Right now the max to min variance is 1-5/16". The main treads are consistent, so the stringers must be OK, but the winders are off the rails:


7" rise to the first winder
8-5/16" from the last winder to the next normal tread



It's usually a lot easier to fix the framing so you can use the same dimensions on the pretty parts.

That makes a lot of sense. I haven't dismantled it yet, but I am a little concerned about reworking the framing since there is a finished ceiling for the stairs below. But it may be unavoidable to just take everything apart and reconstruct once the winders are consistent.


I recommend a 3/4" tread with a 1" bullnose attached, just good glue is fine.

Dumb question - how is this done? the 1" overhangs on the bottom and isn't seen because it's against the riser?


However, look at your riser height closely and see how thick you should be based off the top floor finished height vs the top tread height, then compare that to the bottom tread height. Something looks inconsistent height in the pictures, but it could be better in person. I personally run riser grain at a diagonal, I think most do.

Winder grain - yes makes sense! what do you think of places that sell winder treads like this (https://www.stairsupplies.com/product-category/wood-stair-parts/stair-treads-materials/winder-stair-treads/)? Do people typically just make them out of nosing, flooring, or decent plywood? I like the idea of this all being consistent with the finish of the flooring for a simple, clean look.


I am attaching some photos that are inspiring to us.

We are using a 13/16" engineered white oak floor at the top and the bottom of the stairs. At the top it will just be that small balcony area. So I need to figure out:


How can I transition from this 13/16" floor to the stairs? I know usually this is a "nosing" but if I am using a square/eased tread, how can I match that on the "top stair" which should be flush with the floor?
How can I trim out the 2 exposed edges of the balcony? I believe usually this also is a "nosing" which would be trimmed at the bottom, but I'd like to do something more modern/contemporary. Some square trim which would cover from the rough flooring edge to the exposed drywall edge? Are there tricks to ensuring the floor is tightly aligned with this trim, or is this just a matter of being as precise as possible?
Should I make treads/risers myself, or source treads with a white oak treads with a square profile?


You will see in the photos we are inspired by plywood stairs as well - but I am not familiar with the joinery techniques they are using. Miter the tread/riser and use a Domino? I realize the overhang is there for practical reasons, so I am leaning toward using solid white oak if I figure out where to get it.

Thanks all for your help!

438263438264438265438266438267

[Patrick Krekelberg]

438099
Evening out the rise is a good thing to do. It's amazing that as little as 1/4"makes stairs feel awkward.
What are you doing for a handrail?

Yes, it definitely does, especially once you know to anticipate it :)

The handrail for the balcony above will be steel, made by a local metalworker (attached our inspiration). I'm unsure what we will do on this lower part.

438268

[Patrick Krekelberg]

so if I want to use a 1" or 1.5" square tread (just for example) with an eased edge and minimal overhang, what is the ideal method to get the same look for the winder treads and the top step where it meets up with the 13/16" balcony floor?

For the winder treads, should I try to get some from a place that matches the tread profile such as Stair Supplies (https://www.stairsupplies.com/product-category/wood-stair-parts/stair-treads-materials/winder-stair-treads/)? Or should I make this from white oak plywood and make or find a molding with the same profile?

For the balcony floor, rookie question I know, but if I had or made a 1" or 1.5" molding to match a square/eased tread profile, would I just rip down the flooring piece there and glue/clamp the molding to the flooring somehow, to make it seamless and unified from the floor to the treads?

What would you advise for making such a molding, just 5/4 stock and add the edge on a router table? Or is such a molding readily available?

[Mel Fulks]

I'll just take the last part. We used to buy treads , and make treads only for the pickiest people. Even the bought ones had to
be jointed and ripped to size. Then we ran the front edge "bull nose" on the shaper. The best looking grain always went toward bullnose edge. And the best looking treads were always toward the
bottom of staircase. Treads got a 1/4 " tongue" cut on the shaper The risers we usually made from oak bought un dressed ,we used dados to cut 5/16th wide and deep dados , fine grain went
to riser top. Treads were not glued to risers, we drilled holes thru riser and and little way into tread, and then nailed
risers to treads with headed ,coated nails. The nails at the ends were always about 7 or 8 inches from ends. There is a good reason for that. No
matter how accurately you lay out your marks for routing the stringers things are never perfect. So when wedging up the
stair if you have any tread noses that that won't seat property ,you can bop them with a rubber mallet and the un-
nailed tread can go into place by "leaving the riser behind".

[andy bessette]

I would do whatever it takes to get rid of the winders...

This. Eliminate the winders.

[Brad Shipton]

Did you check the headroom at the beam when you add tread length? It looks like it could be close.

[Jim Dwight]

The winders I tore out were just plywood boxes covered by flooring on the top with a nosing piece. You could easily make the nosing from 5/4 as you indicate. I would plane it to 1 inch and then put a 1/2 round nose on the top and bottom. It can be nailed/glued or screwed, I would use trim head screws and fill the small holes with color matched wax (commercially available). You can use the same sore of nosing piece at the top to transition to the floor. If you need to, it can be wider and rabbeted so the part that goes over the subfloor is the same thickness as the flooring.

I have the tools to start with rough lumber but I found oak treads available at the lumber yard I use for molding that were cheaper than starting with rough boards. Plus no glueup or planing was required. Around here at least, you will not find treads at the big box stores but the lumber yards that are typically closed on the weekend should have them. But I think they will all have rounded noses. I guess you could rip that off, they are wider than the minimum tread width.

I rabbeted the back of each tread to product a little 1/4 square tongue to go into a dado in the riser.

One thing I liked about the staircase I tore out is how they attached the outside stringer. They nailed a 2x4, flat, onto the wall studs and then nailed the stringer to that. That created enough of a channel that the skirt board could slide down behind the stringer and the treads just butted into it. That avoids all the fitting you normally have to do. But it means you have to cut the treads accurately. I think one reason you see a lot of painted risers is it supports a little caulk in any gap, however. Where I have open treads, not between two walls, the treads extend out over the wall and there is a fitted skirt under them. The skirt should be mitered for the risers (which also get mitered). It was a bit of a pain but no harder than installing trim. But the treads between two walls is definitely less fussy, especially if you can slide the skirt behind the stringers.

Use 2x12s for the stringers. The staircase I tore out was 2x10s and there wasn't much left after they cut the notches. A little scary.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Winders serve a purpose, to get more steps in less space. Stairwells are rarely big enough to allow a perfect set of stairs. In most instances winders are used to get enough headroom at the bottom of the stairs. You can't just tear them out without reconfiguring the entire system and usually there isn't room for that. Two winders gone in these steps = 15" less headroom at the bottom of the stairs and two more steps intruding into the living space at the bottom.

[Jim Dwight]

I agree with Steve, it takes space to eliminate the winders. I did it by reducing the tread depth, the original stairs were something like 14 inches wide. Far above code. That gave me the run to eliminate the winders with a rise and run within code requirements.

With respect to white oak, I did not see that option in the search I did for treads but it might exist. My floors are white oak but I just used the oak treads I found. Both are clear finished and I don't think the difference is significant. There are a lot of variations in oak, much more than just red versus white, as well as variation in trees of each type. I think red oak stairs with white oak floors works fine in my house and I suspect it would in yours too. I don't actually know if my treads are red or white oak or some of both. To truly get white oak treads may mean you will have to make them from rough lumber.