Laguna LT18 (Italian) Buy Opportunity

[Steve Catts]

Thanks to some great advice from folks here on the creek, I have tracked down a Laguna LT18 not far from me here in Texas. It is a 2002 model. As such, 3HP Italian motor, 12" resaw capacity. Price is $2200 firm (no tax). My other alternatives are Rikon 10-347 ($2600+tax) (18" Professional), Hammer N4400 ($3000+tax), or Laguna 18BX ($2000+tax) - all these options would be new machines.

The saw comes with 2 1" Resaw King blades, mobility, driftmaster fence, and the newer ceramic guides. The saw has been used mainly to shape turning blanks that are then sold commercially.

Thoughts? My use will be furniture. I am wanting this scale of machine but had not anticipated access to an Italian Laguna.

Should I? Shouldn't I? Are tere any endemic problems with this generation of machine I should know about?

Thanks in advance.
Steve

[Patrick Kane]

I purchased a 2004-2005 20" italian laguna from an estate in Florida. It came with a resaw king and mobility kit(is this extra? I thought it was standard). I bought that for $1700, i believe. It was then $250-300 to have it shipped to me. I recently picked up a driftmaster, which i think is going to be a nice fence. The install was finicky as heck, but i like the unit and its features. This is a 4.8hp saw with a 20" resaw. I dont think your deal is a bad one. That era of saw doesnt have the same specs as a new model, so its hard to compare them apples to apples; however, the accessories are close to a grand themselves. The resaw king can be sharpened half a dozen times, so those blades are valuable if they have a fair amount of life left in them.

Seems like that era saw has similar power and capacity specs to the 18BX. Up to you if 18 years of mileage is worth it for some expensive blades and a pricey fence. I know the BX is made in taiwan versus the LT in italy by ACM. I dont know if that is meaningful unless you tell me the LT has a greater tension spec.

[Dave Sabo]

only the Hammer is in the same class.

It's a fair deal assuming condition is good.

If it has an Italian motor, they run a bit hot. If it's got a Baldor, no worries. I've only had issues when running it constantly for hours on end.

[Steve Catts]

Dave, are you an owner?

[Jim Matthews]

How will you get it home?
If you're paying for delivery, consider that cost.

Do you have power sufficient for 220 motors?
It's not just plugs that need changing for higher voltage.

[Steve Catts]

All good questions. Yes, I'm fine with a dedicated 220v circuit. The saw is a little over 2 hours away, so I'll rent a trailer, tie downs and transport it on its spine. The transport is the most imposing part of the possibility.

[Mike Kees]

Steve ,when you trailer it,remove the table. I hauled my Centauro 3 1/2 hours home on a trailer.My trailer is a flat deck Bobcat trailer with a wooden deck,so I screw 2''x4" pieces around what I haul and then strap down. Rode like a dream all the way home.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I’ve put a lot of mileage on an LT18 of this same era with the same specs. It’s a decent saw and the drift master fence and carbide blades are a plus. The price seems a bit high to me unless the saw is in perfect condition and is exactly what you want, but that’s just me. I would look for a used Minimax 16 or 20 or 24” SCM / Centauro for around that kind of money, personally.

I feel like Laguna saws are decent, but are a little hyped up and not built as solid as some of their Italian cousins, but I also know that if you are limiting yourself to new saws or used saws that only come available locally, then sometimes a premium price is worth it simply for ending the search and not having to ramp up for a long journey to retrieve a machine.

[Steve Catts]

That’s a painfully true reality! I’ll see it Saturday. It appears the be in very good condition. I think the base price is high but with the extras seems reasonable. There is VERY little resale of good equipment in these parts. Unless you want a Shopsmith. Still see those things every time I go to CL.

[Steve Catts]

Great advice!

[Jim Matthews]

If it was my money (and it isn't) my buy price would be 60% of the combined retail on the original sales slip.

Machinery like this is a depreciating asset.

My experience with the Driftmaster fence wasn't enough to convince me to buy another.

TL;DNR the new Laguna is basically the same price and it will be delivered.

[Phillip Mitchell]

If it was my money (and it isn't) my buy price would be 60% of the combined retail on the original sales slip.

Machinery like this is a depreciating asset.

My experience with the Driftmaster fence wasn't enough to convince me to buy another.

TL;DNR the new Laguna is basically the same price and it will be delivered.

The cost of an a new LT18 in the early 2000s was around $1800-2000, if you can believe it. I know that because I remember seeing a receipt for the LT18 I used for years in a commercial woodshop. My, how times have changed.

[Dave Sabo]

Dave, are you an owner?

Yep, an LT18.



The cost of an a new LT18 in the early 2000s was around $1800-2000, if you can believe it. I know that because I remember seeing a receipt for the LT18 I used for years in a commercial woodshop. My, how times have changed.

Yes, and what did a Grizzly 18" cost then ? What's it going for now?


The price seems a bit high to me unless the saw is in perfect condition and is exactly what you want, but that’s just me. I would look for a used Minimax 16 or 20 or 24” SCM / Centauro for around that kind of money, personally.

At first blush I tend to agree with this. However, tell me what you can go out and get for $2k today that is as stout as a turn of the century ACM saw ? And then go buy a Driftmaster and 2 carbide blades and tell me how much those set you back. Neither come up on the secondary market.


but are a little hyped up and not built as solid as some of their Italian cousins For certain on the hype. It's a Laguna trademark. And I think you're technically correct on the build, but it's not as if ACM saws are sub par or weak. Centauro and Aggazani had a bit more strength in the spines and tended to be a bit more refined - though I would not consider them refined saws. Older Centauro switches tended to be utter rubbish, so there are tradeoffs.

SO it really boils down to opportunity. Clearly Steve doesn't have access to a lot of used machines, and these bandsaws aren't a dime a dozen like 14" Deltas or 10" Craftsmans, so the resale prices follow the typical supply and demand curve. Holding on too tight to the conventional wisdom that a used too should cost 50% of new isn't always productive either as buyer -or- seller. Some things hold their value very well (Festool & Lie Nielsen). Others often aren't worth the gas $ to go pick them up after a few years ( Harbor Freight) And some (Stanley planes) appreciate in value to heights that would make your broker blush. Wish my gramps woulda bought a half dozen #51 & #52 combos.

[David Kumm]

I had one from about 1999. A little light for a resaw machine so I wouldn't buy it for that purpose. Good saw for all around use though. I sold mine about 5 years ago for 1000. The driftmaster adds about $200 and inflation adds so I'd be in the 1500-1700 range. A 20" ACM , Centauro, or Aggi and particularly a 24" would be much better choices if resawing is in your future. Dave

[Steve Catts]

Very helpful perspectives Dave. Thanks.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Yep, an LT18.




Yes, and what did a Grizzly 18" cost then ? What's it going for now?



At first blush I tend to agree with this. However, tell me what you can go out and get for $2k today that is as stout as a turn of the century ACM saw ? And then go buy a Driftmaster and 2 carbide blades and tell me how much those set you back. Neither come up on the secondary market.

For certain on the hype. It's a Laguna trademark. And I think you're technically correct on the build, but it's not as if ACM saws are sub par or weak. Centauro and Aggazani had a bit more strength in the spines and tended to be a bit more refined - though I would not consider them refined saws. Older Centauro switches tended to be utter rubbish, so there are tradeoffs.

SO it really boils down to opportunity. Clearly Steve doesn't have access to a lot of used machines, and these bandsaws aren't a dime a dozen like 14" Deltas or 10" Craftsmans, so the resale prices follow the typical supply and demand curve. Holding on too tight to the conventional wisdom that a used too should cost 50% of new isn't always productive either as buyer -or- seller. Some things hold their value very well (Festool & Lie Nielsen). Others often aren't worth the gas $ to go pick them up after a few years ( Harbor Freight) And some (Stanley planes) appreciate in value to heights that would make your broker blush. Wish my gramps woulda bought a half dozen #51 & #52 combos.

Dave,

I was speaking more in the price range he mentioned in the original post which had saws ranging from $2-3k. They aren’t falling out of the sky, but I’ve definitely seen used, excellent condition minimax 16 or 20” saws as well as other brands of comparable used Italian saws in that price range (or sometimes less) that are bigger and arguably slightly better build quality than Laguna, but I’m probably splitting hairs.

There is definitely something to be said for finding a nice example of a saw close to home and simply paying the premium and moving on with your life. I tend to search and search far and wide for what appears to be good deals, but there is time, some money, and energy in that approach also that isn’t for everyone.

[Dave Sabo]

I have too, Lagunas at $750 and MM16 for $1250. But are there any TODAY ?

I get the impression Steve wants to get on with making sawdust, not relishing the quest for the best deal on a Euro bandsaw with huge re-saw height. So what's the opportunity cost in all this? If he waits, I've no doubt another MM or Laguna or Agazzani will show up for less than $2grand. But when ? And will it be in L.A. or Portland, or Boston, or Miami ? Looooong way from TX.

It's a seller's market right now on woodwork machinery, so "deals" are harder to come by. But not impossible. I can only find two Italians for sale now both $1500. One, a three phase in Cali, and a 16" Laguna rust bucket in FL. Cheaper, but not really better deals. especially the one in FL.

[Alex Zeller]

Price is really a subjective thing. I was looking for a use 8" jointer and decided I wanted something a slight step up from the Grizzly Chinese planer (they didn't have in stock) with the helical head for $1450. That kind of lead me to the Powermatic parallelogram long bed jointer. Occasionally they show up around here but when they do they don't last long. Long story made short, one came up, it had the helical head (which I was fine with straight blades) and a mobile base. The price was about 60% of new and a 4 hour drive each way. I could have waited but who knows how much longer it would have been and I might have saved a few hundred but in the grand scheme of things is a few hundred going to matter?

The clincher was the owner. At the same time a 12" powermatic showed up not too much further way for less than half the price. But the seller never got back to me (probably sold in hours if it was a good deal). I also found a US made dovetail Powermatic but the seller took 3 small pictures and wouldn't take the time to take any more or confirm what motor it had. The guy I bought it from had everything including the tools and manual. He told me that the cutters had never been turned in 7 years (and still seam sharp to me) and was willing to send more pictures if needed and hold on to it so I didn't drive there and find someone driving out of his driveway with it in his truck. When I removed the fence it still had cosmoline under it.

What I'm saying is if the saw looks like it's what you want and in good shape I wouldn't worry if it was $2200 vs $1800. I've seen a couple of the newer LT18 sell at auction for around $1600 plus buyer's fees/ loading and taxes. But those came out of an industrial setting and most likely had plenty of use. My opinion is if given the chance I would prefer an Italian machine over a Taiwanese made machine. They just seam to be made a little more stout.

[Thomas Crawford]

Steve -

I've communicated with the same guy about the lathe. I briefly considered the bandsaw but thought it was a little high due to the age but I am looking to upgrade a 2001 Jet 16". So I didn't feel like it was necessarily worth it for me. If I was without a bandsaw at all I probably would have jumped on it. If it was in the $1700 range I would have bought it. But again depends on what timeframe you need it in. Its pretty slim pickings on used equipment in central tx the past few months.

[Steve Catts]

So very true. It seems that there is a bit of premium on this saw. I’m willing to drive away rather than inherit a headache. As others have said, the margin of $2-300 is not a basis for walking away from a saw I’ll have for the rest of my woodworking days. The 12” re-saw is an issue. But until 10 years ago, that’s all any hobbyists had available to them. I plan to match with a 12” J/P combo. In doing so, I’d be accepting a 12” limitation in planning my projects. I’m a pretty decent furniture and cabinetry guy. A saw like this and the J/P will open additional doors for me.

[Mike Wilkins]

I have owned a LT18 since 2001 and it is a beast of a machine. Original motor with no problems. I upgraded to the ceramic guides and a Resaw King blade when Laguna had a special offer. Sitting on a Shop Fox mobile base which is OK. Had to replace a dry-rotted wheel once. No issues with the motor overheating as stated earlier. Laguna does offer a 5 horse replacement if needed, but no problems with mine.
Weight is around 425 pounds so get some assistance if possible. Remove the table before moving; it is a heavy part. Cast iron trunnions are massive.
That is a good price especially with the options you stated.

[Dave Sabo]

I disagree with David on the value of the Driftmaster. It's $0 if you don't need or want it and it's $400 if you do. That's because they don't show up for sale on the used market. If you want one , you're going to buy new and it's 400 plus tax plus shipping.

The current saw is no different than the one in S.A. except it's un-used and cost 5 grand+ , plus tax as configured. From the pics ,the subject saw has been used, but not heavily in my view. Doesn't look rusty or gumed up either. But, ya gotta go look at it in person. This notion that things "should" cost 50% if new is red herring. Is that 50% of what a new machine costs today or what in 2001 ? And who decided that's correct , real, and accurate ?

At the end of the day if the buyer doesn't think the price is warranted , there is no value and no deal. The seller will find another buyer or won't; and will adjust the price. I think that saw is a fair deal for someone looking for an 18" euro saw based on replacement cost. What that fella paid for it is pretty much immaterial.

I'm curious why you think its 12" resaw will limit you ? Did you end up getting a 16" J/P combo you were asking about a few years back? If you have a 12 jointer, then 12" resaw will be plenty. What are you planning on resawing ? I agree it's not really a resaw machine, but it will do for most hobbyist. If you''re planning on using it as a small bandmill like the seller seems to be , than yea, it's not for you either. But making veneers for furniture projects, it'll be just fine. Of the saws on your list, only the Rikon has more height, and I'm sure the spine will not allow it to tension a blade tighter than the Laguna , so your cut quality is going to suffer after 12" anyway. And the 18BX shouldn't even be in the conversation at all if you're worried abut limiting.

[Steve Catts]

Dave and all,

Thanks so much for your inputs. It's been a lot of years since I made a major equipment purchase and it was great to have a good cross section of insights. I drove up towards Austin today and ended up purchasing the saw. We removed the table and fence to simplify transport and it will be good for me to spend some time with the machine getting it lubed, fine tuned and ready to work. I haven't looked at the manual for it yet but assume this is a 144" or 146" blade??

I took an old (70+ years old) table leaf of rock maple that was about 10" wide. Tried to take a slice off of that and the 3 hp motor strained and the feed rate had to be very slow with the RS King blade. Does that surprise you? Because the owner was not doing precision straight line cuts, it seems that the guides were not set as precisely as I will try to do. That may make some difference. Do you know if there is a 4 hp motor spec'd for this frame that would not require any modifications to the mounting?

Again, thanks for your reassuring comments. It's very true... the saw may have been $2-400 more than some folks would judge appropriate, but it was the right time to make a purchase and it is nice to be done with this search.


I disagree with David on the value of the Driftmaster. It's $0 if you don't need or want it and it's $400 if you do. That's because they don't show up for sale on the used market. If you want one , you're going to buy new and it's 400 plus tax plus shipping.

The current saw is no different than the one in S.A. except it's un-used and cost 5 grand+ , plus tax as configured. From the pics ,the subject saw has been used, but not heavily in my view. Doesn't look rusty or gumed up either. But, ya gotta go look at it in person. This notion that things "should" cost 50% if new is red herring. Is that 50% of what a new machine costs today or what in 2001 ? And who decided that's correct , real, and accurate ?

At the end of the day if the buyer doesn't think the price is warranted , there is no value and no deal. The seller will find another buyer or won't; and will adjust the price. I think that saw is a fair deal for someone looking for an 18" euro saw based on replacement cost. What that fella paid for it is pretty much immaterial.

I'm curious why you think its 12" resaw will limit you ? Did you end up getting a 16" J/P combo you were asking about a few years back? If you have a 12 jointer, then 12" resaw will be plenty. What are you planning on resawing ? I agree it's not really a resaw machine, but it will do for most hobbyist. If you''re planning on using it as a small bandmill like the seller seems to be , than yea, it's not for you either. But making veneers for furniture projects, it'll be just fine. Of the saws on your list, only the Rikon has more height, and I'm sure the spine will not allow it to tension a blade tighter than the Laguna , so your cut quality is going to suffer after 12" anyway. And the 18BX shouldn't even be in the conversation at all if you're worried abut limiting.

[Dave Sabo]

The blade length is stamped on the ACM build plate which is on the outfeed side of the spine. Pretty sure it's a 150" blade.

Your re-saw test doesn't surprise me, but I would look into it a bit closer. That guy was sawing logs in the pics, so I think it's pretty certain that the blade(s) need sharpening. Maple is hard and you were at the top of the range height wise too. Pretty tough test. Accurately set guides should be done each time you change blades AND when you change cutting heights. If they weren't adjusted properly it would have given me pause about the owner's ownership. But, they may have been perfectly fine at 6-8" or whatever he was cutting last.

Re-sawing (precision anyway) is not a speedy endeavor. As was mentioned already , this is not a dedicated resaw machine. If you want production rates at 10-12" heights you really need to look at a 20-24" machine with around 5 hp. Especial in a hardwood like rock maple that's been drying for close to a century.


I am pretty sure Leeson and Baldor both make a 4 -5 hp motor with a mounting pattern to fit. Even if I'm mistaken, an adapter plate would be inexpensive to buy or have made.

[Patrick Kane]

Yep, guarantee the blade is not at its sharpest. Send them both in to laguna and have them sharpened. $30ish a blade, I think?

I can resaw 10” at a pretty decent rate. Maybe 18ish fpm. Your saw is just slightly less powerful than my lt20, so I’m guessing the blade is the limiting factor. Did you ask him when the last time he sharpened it?

[Steve Catts]

Thanks for your generous inputs!


The blade length is stamped on the ACM build plate which is on the outfeed side of the spine. Pretty sure it's a 150" blade.

Your re-saw test doesn't surprise me, but I would look into it a bit closer. That guy was sawing logs in the pics, so I think it's pretty certain that the blade(s) need sharpening. Maple is hard and you were at the top of the range height wise too. Pretty tough test. Accurately set guides should be done each time you change blades AND when you change cutting heights. If they weren't adjusted properly it would have given me pause about the owner's ownership. But, they may have been perfectly fine at 6-8" or whatever he was cutting last.

Re-sawing (precision anyway) is not a speedy endeavor. As was mentioned already , this is not a dedicated resaw machine. If you want production rates at 10-12" heights you really need to look at a 20-24" machine with around 5 hp. Especial in a hardwood like rock maple that's been drying for close to a century.


I am pretty sure Leeson and Baldor both make a 4 -5 hp motor with a mounting pattern to fit. Even if I'm mistaken, an adapter plate would be inexpensive to buy or have made.