Pm-v11 at 20*

[Tony Wilkins]

I read that PM-V11 steel can be sharpened down to 20 degrees. Has anybody sharpened it down that far?

hopefully this doesn’t turn into another sharpening thread.

[Jim Koepke]

hopefully this doesn’t turn into another sharpening thread.

Maybe we need a conference just for sharpening. We have about six currently.

My PM-v11 blades are sharpened with a 25º bevel.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Maybe we need a conference just for sharpening. We have about six currently.

My PM-v11 blades are sharpened with a 25º bevel.

jtk

In my defense, it’s not about how to sharpen, or stones — just about people experience with certain bevel angles on a specific steel ;)

[Erich Weidner]

FWIW, I like to see the topics broken up if they are unique enough questions. Makes finding old posts easier.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

20 degrees? You are talking about chisels used for paring, right?

[Jim Koepke]

FWIW, I like to see the topics broken up if they are unique enough questions. Makes finding old posts easier.

After the last post in each thread is a "Tags for this Thread" option:

437650

This allows users to create search terms for posts they find worth reading again in the future.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

20 degrees? You are talking about chisels used for paring, right?

Yes, that’s exactly what I was thinking about. I’m thinking about using pine for a project but paring baselines in it is not what I’m looking forward too.

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, that’s exactly what I was thinking about. I’m thinking about using pine for a project but paring baselines in it is not what I’m looking forward too.

A lot of my projects are done in pine or similar firs. My paring chisels are mostly ground closer to 15º. The only way to really discover for yourself if a lower angle will work is to try it on your chisels.

It is very easy to put a higher angle on and edge. That is shown clearly by the use of a secondary bevel. It is a lot of grinding to take the angle lower.

You might want to try with the lowest bevel angle you imagine to be useful. Then if it fails too quickly you can step it up a few degrees at a time.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Yes, that’s exactly what I was thinking about. I’m thinking about using pine for a project but paring baselines in it is not what I’m looking forward too.

Although I not tested my PM-V11 chisels at 20 degrees, they are claimed to work just fine at 20 degrees

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/chisels/bench/69847-veritas-pm-v11-bench-chisels

I have seen Derek Cohen claim on at least two different occasions (woodcentral and on woodworkers forums) that you can sharpen them at 20 degrees, but he generally sharpens them at 25 degrees as do I.

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

You are specifically discussing paring, so not hitting it with a hammer, in which case I would not sharpen at 20 degrees.

Interested in what you choose to do and the results. I hollow grind at 25 degrees then I free hand sharpen from there.

[Tony Wilkins]

When my grinder arrives, which is waiting on the shop to be finished, I will make the decision whether or not I’m going to try it. I have one PM-V11 chisel (3/16th) and I don’t want to ruin it with a poor grinding job. I’ve been looking at O1 chisels too — both AI and Veritas. The majority of my chisels are A2 from Lie-Nielsen and BS so I know I don’t want to take them down to less than 30*.

I will keep everyone apprised of what direction I go. I might go back to trying just plain sharp but every time I watch Cosman pull out his 17* chisel for softwoods this thought sinks in again.

I know some will think that vintage chisels would be an option but they are thin on the ground out here, I don’t have the energy to chase them locally, and I’ve had terrible luck online.

[Robert Hazelwood]

It tolerates 25 degrees pretty well, much better than A2. 20 might be pushing it, but for gentle use it might work.

Some varieties of pine actually have very hard growth rings and are actually harder on the chisel than many "hardwoods". SYP can be a real bear, for example.

[Tony Wilkins]

It tolerates 25 degrees pretty well, much better than A2. 20 might be pushing it, but for gentle use it might work.

Some varieties of pine actually have very hard growth rings and are actually harder on the chisel than many "hardwoods". SYP can be a real bear, for example.

I haven’t seen much yellow pine here, mostly unlabeled “white pine” or labeled sugar pine.

[Jim Koepke]

Some varieties of pine actually have very hard growth rings and are actually harder on the chisel than many "hardwoods".

This is the problem with many firs and pines. The soft wood gives way and the harder growth rings give a little (or a lot). The softer ring gets compressed and looks a mess when the hard ring springs back.

Speaking of "looks a mess" my solution is to have different chisels for different tasks. My Buck Bros. bevel edge chisels are set up for paring softwoods. My Witherby bevel edge chisels have a steeper angle. These were often used for chopping dovetails. Now a fret saw is used for removing waste on dovetails.

Flat sided chisels are used more for chopping. My steepest chisel may be at 35º. Mostly 30º is as steep as is needed.

jtk

[Robert Hazelwood]

I haven’t seen much yellow pine here, mostly unlabeled “white pine” or labeled sugar pine.

The sugar pine I've come across is like styrofoam almost and I think it would be a good candidate for a 20 degree bevel.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Tony, if you don't visit Wood Central you might go over and check out the hand tool threads on a "unicorn bevel." David Weaver and others are testing out a quick method for sharping chisels that starts with a 20 degree bevel.

Eric

[Todd Zucker]

Can someone start a unicorn thread here. Fascinating. I need to unlearn (and learn) some things.

[Derek Cohen]

Can someone start a unicorn thread here. Fascinating. I need to unlearn (and learn) some things.

First watch David's first video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do7FdOh6S9s

The following is a post I wrote at WoodCentral ...

There has been a great deal of interesting photography of buffed edges to date. I don't have the microscope to add to this, and so I will just take what has already been presented that provides evidence of enduring edges. Edges which last longer are lovely, but ...


... I want the edges also to be sharp and take the type of shavings that are evidence of a working tool, not just a long-lasting, but dull-ish edge. Rounded edges increase the cutting angles from 20/25 degrees to 40-ish degrees? I mean, chisels are not expected to act like BU planes, are they? Or the scraping chisel of Bill Carter?


Then I sharpened a chisel. Not just any chisel, but a Marples Boxwood with a 20 degree bevel. Actually, 5 of them. I wasn't in my right mind when I hollow ground them to 20 degrees - thinking that I could do with a few chisels with low cutting angles for dovetails - especially when they struggled to hold an edge at 25 degrees!


And the new buffed edge? Well, it took amazing shavings. Amazing! And it did not stop taking these amazing shavings .... which is a miracle, since the blades of these chisels are made of cheese.


They looked like this .. unfortunately not the Marples, but a Stanley #60 chisel (we all have a few of these for opening paint cans). The wood is Tasmanian Oak (similar to White Oak) ...


https://i.postimg.cc/8Pv0hBXH/1.jpg

Sharpening system? Nothing much. I had a much used 6" stitched mop soaked in Lee Valley green compound. This was chucked into my lathe ...


https://i.postimg.cc/13ZYMnLZ/2.jpg


The wheel was spun at 1450 rpm, which is the speed of a half-speed bench grinder in Australia. I use an 8" half speed bench grinder to hollow grind blades, so it made sense to use the same speed.


The bevel was presented to the spinning mop and angled about 10 degrees (please note, if you are reading about this method for the first time, that the mop is spinning away from the edge).


https://i.postimg.cc/j59MfLzm/3.jpg


This resulted in a fine wire, and rather than buffing this off on the mop as David has done, I wiped the back of the blade on a section of hardwood with green compound.


Having satisfied my self several times over that this method worked, and that it looked a Good Thing, I decided to purchase another grinder rather rely on the lathe .


https://i.postimg.cc/KjMJDxfz/4.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/4xb204gH/5.jpg


I got to thinking about trying this out on plane blades. In fact, I did so, and realised that it may not be a good idea. All the bench plane blades I have are cambered. Planing with a buffed cambered blade created shavings that were stringy, indicating an uneven edge. You can get away with this in a chisel, but not a plane blade. I shall try again, but that is my initial observation.


I also tried this with block plane blades. Now this was different: 25 degree straight bevel, just like a chisel. But would it cut differently, especially on end grain where low cutting angles are expected to rule?


A LN blade was hollow ground at 25 degrees, and then went through a typical process of extra fine diamond stone/Medium and Ultra Fine Spyderco ceramic stones, and a final polish on green compound-on-hard wood. At least the green compound would be the unifying medium.


https://i.postimg.cc/0NkX1gkW/6.jpg

The surface/shaving on Jacaranda (the softest wood to hand) looked like this ...


https://i.postimg.cc/cJF9sD6s/7.jpg

The buffed edge looked like this ...


https://i.postimg.cc/xCqsqKbL/8.jpg

The buffed edge felt sharper and left a cleaner surface.


This was repeated on Jarrah end grain. First the honed blade ...


https://i.postimg.cc/YqQd42jD/11.jpg
.. and the buffed edge ...
https://i.postimg.cc/8k2yPfkr/9.jpg

Nothing in the two? If so, that is a win.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[ken hatch]

Derek,

I've just started reading about this and as always there are questions but I can also accept that it may be valid for no other reason than I've maintained forever that the important action with respect to cutters is not just the acuteness of the edge but equally the smoothness of the cutting edge (smoothing and decreasing the size of the saw teeth). From my experience a stropped edge will cut smoother and last longer than one not stropped. And BTW, I've never seen the effect of dubbing the edge, I'm sure it can be done, but. Of course you run into a problem with Japanese cutters if you wish to have a pretty bevel with a good difference between hard steel and soft iron, the strop destroys the difference Could be a small price to pay.

ken

[Jim Koepke]

BTW, I've never seen the effect of dubbing the edge,

A few careful strokes on a strop isn't likely to cause dubbing. A lot of strokes, especially carelessly done is likely to round an edge.

Pressing down hard on the bevel while drawing it across a leather strop will compress the strop. The decompression action takes place right on the edge.

Using hardwood for a stropping surface may help to prevent this action.

My casual research on this was done by testing the blade off of the stones and then testing after stropping.

If an edge indicated a 'toothy' blade fresh off a polishing stone it usually could be improved by stropping. It could also be improved by a bit more work on the polishing stone.

A 'toothy' edge is one that catches hair when shaving.

A fine keen edge straight off a polishing stone didn't have much improvement after careful stropping. It was possible to dub the edge if the stropping was excessive or wasn't performed with care.

What this tells me is in the absence of a fine honing stone stropping can improve the edge, possibly substantially.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Any way that produces results you can use the results of is fine. That line up the wall behind Derek's buffer wheel is the reason I can't use that method in the old houses I work on. The same for almost any kind of grinding, and especially dry grinding, even with a CBN wheel.

[ken hatch]

Derek,

"...Then I sharpened a chisel. Not just any chisel, but a Marples Boxwood with a 20 degree bevel. Actually, 5 of them. I wasn't in my right mind when I hollow ground them to 20 degrees - thinking that I could do with a few chisels with low cutting angles for dovetails - especially when they struggled to hold an edge at 25 degrees!

And the new buffed edge? Well, it took amazing shavings. Amazing! And it did not stop taking these amazing shavings .... which is a miracle, since the blades of these chisels are made of cheese..."

Just a question: Were your Marples chisels post 1933? In the photo the Marples chisels in the background are blurry and I can not see if the tangs are flat or round. My experience with flat tanged Marples is the steel is very good.

BTW, all of this is very interesting. While it doesn't change my thinking about the importance of the condition/smoothness of the very edge of the cutter it may change how I get there.

ken

ken

[Steve Voigt]

A few careful strokes on a strop isn't likely to cause dubbing. A lot of strokes, especially carelessly done is likely to round an edge.

Pressing down hard on the bevel while drawing it across a leather strop will compress the strop. The decompression action takes place right on the edge.



This is the conventional wisdom on stropping. I admit I've never done a thorough investigation of the subject. But the numerous tests done by David Weaver and Winston Chang suggest the conventional wisdom is flat out wrong, whether the stropping is done manually, or with a cotton buffing wheel.
My advice to anyone who's interested: Read the threads on Wood Central, make sure you understand what is going on, then experiment yourself. Don't assume what you've previously believed is true.
For two decades, I believed the conventional wisdom on cap irons. But in 2012-2013, I became convinced that the conventional wisdom was wrong. Most of the convincing happened on Wood Central and was spearheaded by a group that included the aforementioned Mr. Weaver.
Another guy who was part of the group investigating the cap iron is Bill Tindall. Bill said to me the other day that it's hard to change, especially if you're already doing something that's successful. And he's right. But keeping an open mind, continuing to experiment and try new things, is a good way to avoid stagnation.

[ken hatch]

This is the conventional wisdom on stropping. I admit I've never done a thorough investigation of the subject. But the numerous tests done by David Weaver and Winston Chang suggest the conventional wisdom is flat out wrong, whether the stropping is done manually, or with a cotton buffing wheel.
My advice to anyone who's interested: Read the threads on Wood Central, make sure you understand what is going on, then experiment yourself. Don't assume what you've previously believed is true.
For two decades, I believed the conventional wisdom on cap irons. But in 2012-2013, I became convinced that the conventional wisdom was wrong. Most of the convincing happened on Wood Central and was spearheaded by a group that included the aforementioned Mr. Weaver.
Another guy who was part of the group investigating the cap iron is Bill Tindall. Bill said to me the other day that it's hard to change, especially if you're already doing something that's successful. And he's right. But keeping an open mind, continuing to experiment and try new things, is a good way to avoid stagnation.

Steve,

As Artie Johnson would say, very interesting. I've just started reading the threads so my take may be wrong but it may turn out that Paul Sellers isn't a joke after all. Correct me if I'm wrong but one test that has been done is stropping at ~45* angle with good results. If that is the case the dubbing problem can go the way of the tight mouth along some with other conventions of the world of wood.

ken

[Winston Chang]

My advice to anyone who's interested: Read the threads on Wood Central, make sure you understand what is going on, then experiment yourself. Don't assume what you've previously believed is true.

This is great advice.



Correct me if I'm wrong but one test that has been done is stropping at ~45* angle with good results. If that is the case the dubbing problem can go the way of the tight mouth along some with other conventions of the world of wood.

That's right (I'm the one who did that test). I've had a charged strop for a while, but I generally avoided using it because of the possibility of a dubbed edge. What I didn't ask back then was, what effect, exactly, would a dubbed edge have? Now I ask myself, why did I assume it would be a bad thing?

[Tom M King]

Here is a picture of a Marples chisel (Boxwood handled bought new in 1970's)437858437859, at 20 degrees, rolling up shavings of fine toothed backsaw ridges left on small tenon cheek offcuts. The offcut is from window sash rails, so not very big. The light colored shaving in the background is from a block plane. This was a job to make 38 reproduction window sash for an 18th Century house, that were exact reproductions of the one original left. No sharpening was needed beyond what was done at the beginning of that job, and I don't want to count how many mortises, and tenons were cut, but every intersection of parts had them. The wood is very old, reclaimed Heart Pine of Southern Longleaf Pine.

I don't own any PM-v11 steel, so sorry no help with the original question.

I'll find some other pictures of Stanley no. 40 (the modern kind from the '80's with black plastic handles) that are kept at 18 degrees for jobs other than woodworking. We use sharp chisels for many more things than woodworking.

[Tom M King]

Stanley no. 40 at 18 degrees. Some more of other uses somewhere, but I'm not sure if I can find them. I feel like I can get these sharper than any other cutting edges I own, but I don't own any fancy, new ones. These are probably the newest chisels I own.
https://www.woodtalkonline.com/uploads/monthly_2019_03/1184716802_IMG_1531(960x1280).jpg.64d777c92046ab98 c97ef5710926d562.jpg

[Steve Voigt]

Steve,

As Artie Johnson would say, very interesting. I've just started reading the threads so my take may be wrong but it may turn out that Paul Sellers isn't a joke after all. Correct me if I'm wrong but one test that has been done is stropping at ~45* angle with good results. If that is the case the dubbing problem can go the way of the tight mouth along some with other conventions of the world of wood.

ken


Hey Ken,
I'd never say P.S. is a joke, though I'm not a huge fan either. But more to the point, the "unicorn" seems to me to have some key differences from Sellers's method. His is a smooth convex curve along the whole length of the bevel, maybe 3/8" or so depending on the thickness of the steel. The convexity Dave and Winston are describing is happening over something like .005", and if there is a steep (e.g. 45°) angle at the tip, it's only in the final couple thousandths.

[Derek Cohen]

Steve,

As Artie Johnson would say, very interesting. I've just started reading the threads so my take may be wrong but it may turn out that Paul Sellers isn't a joke after all. Correct me if I'm wrong but one test that has been done is stropping at ~45* angle with good results. If that is the case the dubbing problem can go the way of the tight mouth along some with other conventions of the world of wood.

ken

Ken, Sellers’ technique may resemble the rounded, buffed edge of the “Unicorn” micro bevel, but it is not the same at all. He is not rounding and increasing the angle at the micro edge; he is simply working the full face of the bevel in a curved action. He takes care to avoid lifting beyond (say) 30 degrees at the edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

This is great advice.




That's right (I'm the one who did that test). I've had a charged strop for a while, but I generally avoided using it because of the possibility of a dubbed edge. What I didn't ask back then was, what effect, exactly, would a dubbed edge have? Now I ask myself, why did I assume it would be a bad thing?

Winston,

Thanks, That is what I thought I understood. Good work.

ken

[Todd Zucker]

This finally feels like the old days. Everyone is dead wrong, and everyone is dead right, about sharpening (chisels at least). I am excited. Maybe we can unify the field.

[ken hatch]

Ken, Sellers’ technique may resemble the rounded, buffed edge of the “Unicorn” micro bevel, but it is not the same at all. He is not rounding and increasing the angle at the micro edge; he is simply working the full face of the bevel in a curved action. He takes care to avoid lifting beyond (say) 30 degrees at the edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I probably should have put a "/s" or something to indicate my tongue was at least partially in my cheek but it is interesting that some convexity might be good. Sure goes against what many of us, including me, have been saying. But it may also confirm what I've been on my soapbox about for some time, the importance of smoothing the edge, not just making it shine, but smoothing it is more important than a perfect meeting of two flat planes.

ken

[ken hatch]

Hey Ken,
I'd never say P.S. is a joke, though I'm not a huge fan either. But more to the point, the "unicorn" seems to me to have some key differences from Sellers's method. His is a smooth convex curve along the whole length of the bevel, maybe 3/8" or so depending on the thickness of the steel. The convexity Dave and Winston are describing is happening over something like .005", and if there is a steep (e.g. 45°) angle at the tip, it's only in the final couple thousandths.


Steve,

Correct me if I'm wrong, also part of their experiments is the use of a very shallow bevel to lessen the wedging effect. The Sellers comment was with tongue slightly in cheek, I've been as guilty as many on this forum of being shocked, I tell you shocked, of someone having a convex bevel and/or using a buffing wheel.

BTW, One of the things I've learned well over my many years of teaching is how to eat crow.

ken

[Steve Voigt]

Steve,

Correct me if I'm wrong, also part of their experiments is the use of a very shallow bevel to lessen the wedging effect. The Sellers comment was with tongue slightly in cheek, I've been as guilty as many on this forum of being shocked, I tell you shocked, of someone having a convex bevel and/or using a buffing wheel.

BTW, One of the things I've learned well over my many years of teaching is how to eat crow.

ken


Ken,
My bad; I should have picked up the tone of your comment. The Internet is where sarcasm goes to die.
Correct on the bevel, as far as I understand it. Dave's hi-mag pics show a very steep bevel, 45-ish, transitioning to around 25 over about .005", and then farther back giving way to a primary bevel around 20. The steepest part, the part that's 45-ish, is maybe .001". So the steep part provides durability, but there's no steel behind it to act as a brake, so effort is reduced.
If you go to around the four-minute mark in Dave's video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3deOUmCPg ), you can see it for yourself.

[David Bassett]

... Correct me if I'm wrong, also part of their experiments is the use of a very shallow bevel to lessen the wedging effect. The Sellers comment was with tongue slightly in cheek, I've been as guilty as many on this forum of being shocked, I tell you shocked, of someone having a convex bevel and/or using a buffing wheel. ...

I'd say *one* of their experiments is with a shallow bevel. I don't think we should make definitive statements about their results as they've branched in several directions with their efforts. One of the interesting things, to me listening and watching, is in their small way they are "doing science". One reports "I did this and got this result" and another tries to reproduce that result and often thinks of and tries a variation.

Like science it's messy and will be easier to understand in hindsight, but... I think they got started when David Weaver, who uses a shallower than typical bevel angle anyway, said to himself this cheap chisel sucks, noticed his buffer, and wondered if it would improve the edge without much effort. It did, much more than he'd hoped for. Others explored the cheap chisel improvement while others tried taking better chisels to bevel angles outside their comfort zone. While doing that other buffer solutions and alternates to buffer solutions, e.g. strops and altering tip angle on finishing stones, are also being explored.

[ken hatch]

Ken,
My bad; I should have picked up the tone of your comment. The Internet is where sarcasm goes to die.
Correct on the bevel, as far as I understand it. Dave's hi-mag pics show a very steep bevel, 45-ish, transitioning to around 25 over about .005", and then farther back giving way to a primary bevel around 20. The steepest part, the part that's 45-ish, is maybe .001". So the steep part provides durability, but there's no steel behind it to act as a brake, so effort is reduced.
If you go to around the four-minute mark in Dave's video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kH3deOUmCPg ), you can see it for yourself.

Thanks Steve,

Interesting video,

ken

[Phil Mueller]

I’ve done a few chisels the Seller’s method, and frankly, it produces a very nice edge. Downside is you really can’t use the chisel bevel side up easily, if at all. It’s an easy way to freehand a decent edge. Now, everything gets hollow ground first.

At some point, I decided to take a few two cherries chisels down to 15* to use for paring. Didn’t work out too well. They quickly chipped which you can see if you enlarge the picture...especially the entire corner on the smaller size chisel. Could be my technique, but I plan to re-hone to 20* and give them a try.

437890

P.S. I think this was my first attempt at hollow grinding...and you can see by the middle chisel, I was challenged to say the least!

[Tom M King]

Here's a picture of another, newer Boxwood handled Marples chisel at 20 degrees. It's helping to reshape the profile on a molding plane made in 1735. I don't spend much time thinking about sharpening theory. I get paid to produce work, and usually am not going slow enough to teach lessons. Picture taken by friend with my phone. The biggest trouble was she couldn't keep from putting it between my eyes, and my hands. All my cutting edges are simple intersections of flat planes. I manage to get by.

437891