Request for crowd source solution: Help me select new sharpening stones?

[Mike Allen1010]

I apologize in advance for my forthcoming sharpening question – I know there are multiple previous threads on this topic. My bad for not learning from them! I want to ask a very specific question in hopes of learning from the collective intelligence of the SMC community. – Please forgive me for my sin of creating a sharpening thread!

I over the last 40 years I've gone through lots of different sharpening stones – all primarily water stones – King, Sigma power stones, Shapton etc. My most recent set up was set of three Shapton Pro stones – can't remember the grits - yellow, purple, lighter yellow. I really love the coarse and middle stones – easy to flatten, cut quickly. My biggest challenge was that the finishing stone was soft. The upside was you could really feel the cutting edge interacting with the stone, downside was it was easy to stick/catch the edge of the blade in the sharpening surface and it took some time to soak prior to first use.

Once my Shaptonc Pro finishing stone got so thin it broke, I replaced it with a SpyderCo "ultrafine" stone I had rattled around the shop. Again my apologies I can't remember the specific grits etc. - My stone is snow white. It cuts quickly and I very much appreciate it's a much "harder" sharpening surface that also provides good feedback through your hands – not something easily gouged. I also like it doesn't require a lot of prior soaking prior to use. My challenges with the Spyderco ultrafine stone that I otherwise enjoy, are: removing the wire edge on the flat cutting surface seems to leave the steel fragments embedded in the stone. In subsequent passes I can feel the steel embedded in the stone interacting with the cutting edge – not good. Secondly, it seems hard to keep it flat. Admittedly I have an old Atoma flattening plate that I think came with a set of Sigma power stones. Probably time to replace it (I appreciate any advice/suggestions)?

Problem is the coarser grit Shapton stones flatten easily with the Atoma plate. However the, Spyderco ultrafine seems to resist flattening – seems like there's always a hollow area in the center the stone untouched after multiple passes with Atoma flattening plate.

Sorry for the long preamble – I guess my ask is: what are your suggestions for finishing stone that can easily be Flat, provides a fine, finished cutting edge (I'm more than willing to spend extra time to get sharpest possible edge tools), and is a firm surface less prone to gouging. Secondarily what should I use as a flattening stuff?

At the risk of creating highlighting some kind of fundamental schism, I've never used oil stones. Could those be some kind of solution?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions. Very much appreciate everyone's help!

Best, Mike



and also

[Josko Catipovic]

King stones work fine for me.

[Mel Fulks]

King stones work fine for me.

The only King stone I have is a 1200 and I like it. Used it as only stone in commercial shop. As I have said before: in the
1960s I worked with a couple of great cabinet makers who only used a Sears ...or Pep Boys carborundum stone. They could
sharpen quickly and I never saw them strop. The Carborundum stones did not have grit numbers, but I think they are
certainly finer than concrete blocks.

[ken hatch]

Mike,

I'm a fan of natural stones vs. synthetic for both honing and polishing. For grinding synthetic or diamond work well. I like oil stones and while slower cutting than synthetic water stones when stone maintenance is factored in they are just as fast doing the job. My favorite polishing stone is a medium hard JNAT. The steel used in your cutters is a factor, all my cutters are high carbon steel.

I know dancing around your question but if I had to give an answer it would be find a stone dealer you can trust and get a JNAT for finishing. Even with a good dealer you might end up kissing a few frogs but it could be worth it.

Drive to Tucson, I'll buy the beer, and spend a day or two with my stones. I've way too many of just about each kind, then you should be able to make an informed decision.

ken

ken

[Curt Putnam]

I assume stropping as the final operation is not in the picture? The green compound is appz ½ micron which translates to about as fine a grit as is usually found in the woodworking world. Have youried diamonds on steel or cast iron? Either film or loose would get you started. Power stropping works well for knives and longer edges. Long winded way of saying I have no answers.

[Bob Jones 5443]

Mike, I feel nervous giving you woodworking advice after seeing your work here, but to me your solution is obvious and easy.

As I say often on SMC, I use the David Charlesworth method and it never fails me. My kit has always been two Norton waterstones: 220/1000 and 4000/8000 combination stones. My 1000 side is worn down to about 3/16" now, so I'm about to replace it with a King 1000, which David C. advises is comparable to the Norton. It's going to be years before I wear out the 8000, but when I do I'll buy a single 8000 grit, not the combo. (The 4000 only comes into play when I flatten the back of a new iron, not for resharpening.)

For flattening the stones, I use wet/dry paper on a granite surface plate. Two comments: 1) My go-to sandpaper grit is 220 and it works just fine for all stones, but I've just run out so I'm using 320 for now, and it's working fine, too. 2) I also have a 1/2" x 12" x 12" float glass that works just as well, but I push pretty hard on the stones when I flatten. The glass has little non-slip pads on the bottom, so is the glass deforming? I can't really say. I suspected the granite would hold up better, so I went that way last year. Woodcraft charges too much for theirs but they occasionally put them on sale. I got my 2" x 9" x 12" plate for $30 plus tax, and even talked them into free shipping. Couldn't pass it up.

To your specific question about the fine stone, the Norton 8000 is as fine as any edge iron needs. It only needs a spritz and a Nagura stone rub just before use (no soaking). It flattens really fast on the 220 wet/dry.

The Charlesworth method seems to be fading out of memory –– judging by the balance of comments here ––only to be picked up by today's YouTube disciples. Trust me, it's the fastest, easiest way to get this done. I recently went into way too much detail about it in another post, including the full materials list with costs. If I find the link I'll post it for you.

Good luck.
Bob

[Bob Jones 5443]

Here's the link:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?158373-My-Camber-Blade-Round-Tuit-Finally-Came&p=3034565&highlight=#post3034565

[David Bassett]

Mike,

you don't seem to be asking about a new sharpening system / techniques, but rather for a finishing stone suggestion.

My first thought (having seen your work) is, "If it 'ain't broke, don't fix it." You seemed happy with the Shapton Kuromaku/Pro* stone you had. The 12000 is very well reviewed and is light yellow in the web photos I see. (*Kuromaku in Japan & Pro in US apparently. With Amazon vendors I see either or both in listings.)

The Sigma Power 13000, as recommended and sold by Stu, was very popular, but since he closed Tools from Japan I haven't seen it clearly identified in a for sale posting. (LV has the "Power Select II" 13000. I'm not sure it's the same thing.) L-N has a 10000 by Ohishi I've never paid any attention to, but their tools at their road shows are plenty sharp! The Shapton Kuromaku/Pro 8000 also has fans, but seem like you've been using higher grits to finish. The Sypderco UF shouldn't need flattening often, so if you otherwise like it, maybe have a go with coarse sandpaper, or belt sander, and then smooth it out with your diamond plate. I'd guess a hard ark would also work for you, if you're really open to changing systems. (I'll leave JNats to Ken & others. That's a slippery slope I'm aggressively avoiding! :) )

[Erich Weidner]

For stone flattening, I'm using a Dia-flat lapping plate (made my DMT). I had some other thread here in SMC a few years ago where I was using the Norton flattening "stone". But it was pointed out that it isn't itself able to stay flat. I chucked it and went to the DMT plate. It isn't cheap, but one popular wood working author/instructor has apparently had one for a decade or so without replacement. Mine flattens stones in no time.

[Jim Koepke]

At the risk of creating highlighting some kind of fundamental schism, I've never used oil stones. Could those be some kind of solution?

What kinds of steel or tools do you need to sharpen?

Oilstones were a solution for me when the water in my shop would freeze in the winter. Even though we have been having some hot days, my water stones have been dry.

My oilstones have been doing so well for most of my sharpening needs and so far have been a little less fuss than the water stones.

The last time my water stones were used was to sharpen some A2 steel on my LN planes.

PMv-11 seems to sharpen fine on oilstones.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I apologize in advance for my forthcoming sharpening question – I know there are multiple previous threads on this topic. My bad for not learning from them! I want to ask a very specific question in hopes of learning from the collective intelligence of the SMC community. – Please forgive me for my sin of creating a sharpening thread!

I over the last 40 years I've gone through lots of different sharpening stones – all primarily water stones – King, Sigma power stones, Shapton etc. My most recent set up was set of three Shapton Pro stones – can't remember the grits - yellow, purple, lighter yellow. I really love the coarse and middle stones – easy to flatten, cut quickly. My biggest challenge was that the finishing stone was soft. The upside was you could really feel the cutting edge interacting with the stone, downside was it was easy to stick/catch the edge of the blade in the sharpening surface and it took some time to soak prior to first use.

Once my Shaptonc Pro finishing stone got so thin it broke, I replaced it with a SpyderCo "ultrafine" stone I had rattled around the shop. Again my apologies I can't remember the specific grits etc. - My stone is snow white. It cuts quickly and I very much appreciate it's a much "harder" sharpening surface that also provides good feedback through your hands – not something easily gouged. I also like it doesn't require a lot of prior soaking prior to use. My challenges with the Spyderco ultrafine stone that I otherwise enjoy, are: removing the wire edge on the flat cutting surface seems to leave the steel fragments embedded in the stone. In subsequent passes I can feel the steel embedded in the stone interacting with the cutting edge – not good. Secondly, it seems hard to keep it flat. Admittedly I have an old Atoma flattening plate that I think came with a set of Sigma power stones. Probably time to replace it (I appreciate any advice/suggestions)?

Problem is the coarser grit Shapton stones flatten easily with the Atoma plate. However the, Spyderco ultrafine seems to resist flattening – seems like there's always a hollow area in the center the stone untouched after multiple passes with Atoma flattening plate.

Sorry for the long preamble – I guess my ask is: what are your suggestions for finishing stone that can easily be Flat, provides a fine, finished cutting edge (I'm more than willing to spend extra time to get sharpest possible edge tools), and is a firm surface less prone to gouging. Secondarily what should I use as a flattening stuff?

At the risk of creating highlighting some kind of fundamental schism, I've never used oil stones. Could those be some kind of solution?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions. Very much appreciate everyone's help!

Best, Mike



Mike, if you liked the Pro Shapton 12000, get another. I much prefer the Sigma 13000. The Sigma version sold by Lee Valley is perfectly good, excellent in fact if Stu's comments are to be taken as the last work here.

From an old thread (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?161689-Sigma-Stones&p=1658755#post1658755): "The Sigma Select II LV has (and not all the grits) are designed specifically for tough steels like powder metal and High speed steel. They chew through less tough steels in the same manner, and in my very limited experience may get the job done faster and easier than even diamonds manage."

If you are having difficulty flattening your Spyderco, then you are not experiencing anything new :) I needed a new coarse diamond stone over 15 minutes to do the job both a Medium and an Ultra Fine. However, they have remained flat over 8 years now (I check periodically).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My oilstones have been doing so well for most of my sharpening needs and so far have been a little less fuss than the water stones.

Information was left out of this. My change to oilstones from water stones came after acquiring soft, hard and black Arkansas stones from Dan's Whetstones. Some softer Arkansas stones were already in my accumulation and a few more have been added.

jtk

[Andrew Hughes]

I recommend the Shapton Pro. I’m on my third Cream colored polishing stone I guess it’s the 12k?
I don’t soak mine but use a lot of water. I also store them at a angle to dry and glue the cream one to a piece of glass when it starts getting thinner.
Heres my sharpening station.

[Jim Matthews]

I have a Shapton Pro 12000 that flattens well on my Atoma 400. I leave the slurry before using it.

I think the Shapton version with a glass backing plate is a different formulation.

[brian zawatsky]

Imagine telling people that you don’t like the Shapton pro finisher, only to be told to buy a Shapton pro finisher LOL!

I have a Shapton 12k that is currently collecting dust in a drawer because I think it’s a lousy stone. The 8k is great. 12k, not so much.

I’m with Ken on this one. If you are borderline obsessed with sharp tools (like me), and you don’t mind expending the effort to get there, you should really consider looking into a Japanese natural finisher. There’s really nothing quite like it. They work best on high carbon steel, however. If you have lots of A2 or powdered metal tools, you’d probably be better off staying with synthetics.

[Kevin Adams]

Imagine telling people that you don’t like the Shapton pro finisher, only to be told to buy a Shapton pro finisher LOL!

I have a Shapton 12k that is currently collecting dust in a drawer because I think it’s a lousy stone. The 8k is great. 12k, not so much.

I recently switched from the Pro 8 to the 12 and still not sure it was worth it. I think the level of sharpness seems a bit better, but I find the 12 loads more and it might somehow be not as hard, which doesn’t make sense. I like the idea of keeping the slurry on there or using a nigara stone as I’ve seen suggested elsewhere to help with the loading. I do like the Shapton Pros though for all around use and currently use a 1, 2 (important IMHO), 5, and 12. I find they are consistent, easy to use, flatten with the 400 Atoma, and even travel well.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I went with the Shapton Glass stone (16K) for my finish stone because I do not like to soak stones.

I seem to end up with a sharper edge from that stone than most anything else that I have.

I really think that your best bet is to find someone close where you can actually try the different stones if that is possible. You already own the Spyderco ceramic so take the time to actually flatten it as suggested by Derek.

If you go for a natural stone, I highly recommend Dan's.

If you happen to be wandering out to Columbus Ohio, bring along a few blades and you can try some of my stones.

[Orlando Gonzalez]

You are going to get great suggestions of what to get. I went through a whole gamut of stones - Shapton Pro & Glass, Bester, Arashiyama, King, Gesshin, etc. before settling on the Sigma Power Ceramic for O1 and Japanese steel. I also have a Suherio Rika 5K and a Japanese natural stone for this steel. For A2 & HSS I have the Sigma Select IIs, Soft, Hard, Translucent, & Black Arkansas oil stones, as well as the Medium & UF Spyderco ceramics.

The Sigma's have have preformed the best for me. Not that the other brand(s) mentioned are bad, it's just that the Sigmas have been better for me. I use the oil stones as well and do like them for what they do.

You may find yourself trying different brands and/or mediums before settling on the one you like best for you and your type of work. It's a nice journey but it can get expensive.

[Mike Allen1010]

Mike,

I'm a fan of natural stones vs. synthetic for both honing and polishing. For grinding synthetic or diamond work well. I like oil stones and while slower cutting than synthetic water stones when stone maintenance is factored in they are just as fast doing the job. My favorite polishing stone is a medium hard JNAT. The steel used in your cutters is a factor, all my cutters are high carbon steel.

I know dancing around your question but if I had to give an answer it would be find a stone dealer you can trust and get a JNAT for finishing. Even with a good dealer you might end up kissing a few frogs but it could be worth it.

Drive to Tucson, I'll buy the beer, and spend a day or two with my stones. I've way too many of just about each kind, then you should be able to make an informed decision.

ken

ken

Ken, turns out it's 408 miles from San Diego to Tucson – just enough time to listen to my favorite BB King and Asleep at the Wheel albums. However I'm thinking Mrs. McBubba might not be thrilled to have a fat, old guy with Cholula stained shirt and a bottle of Woodford's Reserve in his hands show up at her door!:eek:

Just out of curiosity, where could I find one of these "medium hard JNATS" you speak of?

Cheers, Mike

[Mike Allen1010]

Mike, if you liked the Pro Shapton 12000, get another. I much prefer the Sigma 13000. The Sigma version sold by Lee Valley is perfectly good, excellent in fact if Stu's comments are to be taken as the last work here.

From an old thread (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?161689-Sigma-Stones&p=1658755#post1658755): "The Sigma Select II LV has (and not all the grits) are designed specifically for tough steels like powder metal and High speed steel. They chew through less tough steels in the same manner, and in my very limited experience may get the job done faster and easier than even diamonds manage."

If you are having difficulty flattening your Spyderco, then you are not experiencing anything new :) I needed a new coarse diamond stone over 15 minutes to do the job both a Medium and an Ultra Fine. However, they have remained flat over 8 years now (I check periodically).

Regards from Perth

Derek

thanks Derek – super relevant and helpful feedback. Glad to know I'm not the only one having difficulty getting my Spyderco UF stone flat– time to resort to coarser abrasives!

I've used up both Pro Shapton 12,000 most recently and previously the Sigma 13,000, but can't remember why I switched (Probably no good reason other than trying something new in search of Nirvana). How does the Sigma compare with regard to risk of gouging, versus the Shapton Pro? That was really my only material concern with the Shapton.

Thanks in advance for sharing your insight.

Best, Mike

[Mike Allen1010]

I recommend the Shapton Pro. I’m on my third Cream colored polishing stone I guess it’s the 12k?
I don’t soak mine but use a lot of water. I also store them at a angle to dry and glue the cream one to a piece of glass when it starts getting thinner.
Heres my sharpening station.

Thanks AJ. Love your sharpening set up – seems simple and efficient – kinda Californian zen. Also appreciate your suggestion about gluing stone to a glass plate. I glue all my stones to wooden blocks, but that really hasn't kept them from cracking as they get thinner. I'm going to try your idea.

Best, Mike

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your experience, advice and suggestions! For me this is a great example of what a tremendous resource SMC is – it's awesome to be able to tap into the collective knowledge/experience of like-minded hand tool woodworkers to better understand such a fundamental element of woodworking based on real-world experience. If something like SMC had existed when I first started woodworking in the late 70s I can't imagine how much time, effort and frustration I would've avoided trying to figure out things by trial and error.

Thanks fellow Neander's!

[ken hatch]

Ken, turns out it's 408 miles from San Diego to Tucson – just enough time to listen to my favorite BB King and Asleep at the Wheel albums. However I'm thinking Mrs. McBubba might not be thrilled to have a fat, old guy with Cholula stained shirt and a bottle of Woodford's Reserve in his hands show up at her door!:eek:

Just out of curiosity, where could I find one of these "medium hard JNATS" you speak of?

Cheers, Mike


Mike,

She is pretty tolerant, has to be to put up with me for all these years. Besides I'm living without adult supervision right now, MsBubba is up in Oregon helping a friend with her B&B.

Damn, Mike you would ask that question. I've been posting a series of posts on natural stones on my blog and someone asked the same question. I pointed him to a dealer I've dealt with and even found a nice stone for a first stone. Wrong move swarf breath, https://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/ohira-range-suita-lv-3-5-a2048/ it is on its way to Tucson as I type.

ken

[Erich Weidner]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your experience...
...Thanks fellow Neander's!

So, what did you decide on? Enquiring minds want to know.

[Mike Allen1010]

So, what did you decide on? Enquiring minds want to know.

hey Eric,have a decision but struggling with the execution: I'm going with the Sigma 13,000 and also want to experiment with the Japanese natural stone Ken recommended. Unfortunately both are currently out of stock which frustrates my desire for immediate satisfaction:(.

I spent some significant time, effort and sweat getting my Spyderco UF almost flat. Other than the flatness issue I kinda like it – really hard and ungougeable. To my eye, doesn't leave quite as fine an edge as the Shapton Pro 12,000, but a quick strop takes care of that. Guess I'll work with my current kit for now until other options are available.

Best, Mike

[ken hatch]

hey Eric,have a decision but struggling with the execution: I'm going with the Sigma 13,000 and also want to experiment with the Japanese natural stone Ken recommended. Unfortunately both are currently out of stock which frustrates my desire for immediate satisfaction:(.

I spent some significant time, effort and sweat getting my Spyderco UF almost flat. Other than the flatness issue I kinda like it – really hard and ungougeable. To my eye, doesn't leave quite as fine an edge as the Shapton Pro 12,000, but a quick strop takes care of that. Guess I'll work with my current kit for now until other options are available.

Best, Mike

Mike,

LOL, the reason it is out of stock is I bought it. The stone should arrive Friday. After hunting around for a nice stone and finding one, well what can I say other than it is a sickness.

The offer to ship one still stands,

ken