MFT top for breaking down panels plus band saw vs sliding table saw purchase

[Jon Steffen]

Hopefully you can follow my craziness. I think i'll only have about $10k to spend on tools after my 3rd stall shop is built. I was originally thinking of getting a nice sliding table saw around $6-10k, but after thinking more about it and discussing with Sam Blasco, he suggested maybe getting a nice bandsaw instead, $5-6k. This may leave me with funds to buy a nice lathe. I've never turned a bowl before, but I bet i'd be hooked. I want to get into turning and making small stuff like cutting boards, cheese trays (I'm from Wisconsin, we love cheese), ect.


I'm building a new shop and need to build lots of base cabinets and cupboards/shelves for the shop AND finishing my basement with a wet bar(2021-2022), some laundy room cupboards and possibly redoing my kitchen SOMEDAY.

total i estimate somewhere around 40-60 linear feet of base cabinets and 30-60 linear feet of cupboards, (I haven't taught myself to be fluent in metric speak yet, lol).

I currently own a crappy ryobi table saw and a festool 55 tracksaw with 3 different tracks, nice miter saw and dewalt planer. I originally was thinking of buying a sliding table saw to help make all these cabinets (and other wood working of course), but I started reading about torsion box workbenches with MFT style bench dog grid holes in them and I started to think......

I know this will be a ton slower than a sliding table saw, but......
What if I set up a grid on a 50"x98" workbench to make consistent cuts that I will be repeating in making these cabinets. Say 600mm and 800mm for the larger side and back panels (that i can't cut on a bandsaw), some other consistent sized dimensions for the drawer bodies, ect? If I did this, i wouldn't need the sliding table saw to cut up the large panels, and I could have consistent sized pieces for all the cabinet carcuses/drawers (i'll figure out the doors later) because the benchdog grid will allow me to make consistent repeatable cuts.

I'm not even sure the bandsaw would be needed to make the carcuses, but would come in handy with the doors, wood turning and cheese tray stuff.

I plan to find a local woodworker that will show me a few things about turning and let me play a bit before I dive into that world.

What do you guys think?

Anybody have a full sized mft style table to break down 4x8 sheet goods instead of using a table saw or sliding table saw?

Anybody enjoying just using a bandsaw and tracksaw, and don't even use a table saw?

[Curt Putnam]

I recently solld my table saw, jointer and miter saw and bought a Griz 17" bandsaw and an MFT. The MFT has 2 limitations that bug me. It cannot handle large pieces of ply mor can it handle (easily) pieces narrower than the track. It is nigh on useless for dealing with random width/length/thickness pieces of hardwood. It is perfect for panels sized pieces of 3.4" ply and makes one heck of a router table replacement.

If you want to work with solid hardwood, you need a table saw. Do not mistake me, the track saw can be made to work for most anything within its capacity but some stuff is fiddly in the extreme. The example that most recently drove me nuts was needing to take about 1/8" off a piece that ran about 2 3/4" x 20" x 7/8". The track alone will not clamp that.

[Jens Hoffmann]

My shop is upstairs in my house. No table saw, just a bandsaw and an MFT with a track saw. My next shop will have enough space for a slider. That (and a J/P) will be my number one priority. They are just so versatile. I think having a bandsaw will get you by, but it’s not an ideal long term solution. Not sure that you need to spend 6k on a bandsaw either.

[Jon Steffen]

I was just reading several articles that said band saws aren't good for ripping, can have blade drift, and often the offcut side of the board needs to be planed.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I've accumulated a few nice hobbyist machines over the past 4-5 years.

But no way could I replace my Sawstop with a bandsaw and no way could I drop $5-$6K on a commercial bandsaw without having a very good table saw already sitting in my shop.

If I was to take on your cabinet project, with what you currently have, i.e. no tablesaw, no slider or bandsaw, I would build a nice 4 x 8 assembly table. I would put a 3/4" 4 x 8 sheet of MDF with bench dogs holes on the top and use that for cutting the cabinet parts. I'd use a Parf Dog hole system ($200) to make the bench dog holes in the MDF. Then with this you have a nice work surface and with a few bench dogs, great registration for cutting all your cabinet pieces.

I would probably still break the sheet goods down, on the floor, with the sheet plywood laying on 2" pink solid foam. I use a GRS Square, attached to my Festool track for cross cutting the sheet goods, just a little more convenient than marking two sets of pencil marks and aligning my saw track to those.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmNyPvsfSCo

As regards the lathe, this was my latest big tool purchase. Turning is fun and it's definitely something I plan to do more of, when other projects are complete, but lathes come up for sale all the time, so I'd wait until you have time to really explore this new skill set.

I made a few segmented bowls for Christmas presents last year, guess what tool I used to make the Wedgie Sled and the wedge segments for the bowls, my table saw.

I've made quite a few cutting boards, mostly using my tablesaw, jointer/planer and my drum sander.

Here's a few
https://app.photobucket.com/slideshow/u/cedwards874/a/a4582783-f02b-446c-8619-3859d3b6b4af

[Jon Steffen]

I've accumulated a few nice hobbyist machines over the past 4-5 years.

But no way could I replace my Sawstop with a bandsaw and no way could I drop $5-$6K on a commercial bandsaw without having a very good table saw already sitting in my shop.

If I was to take on your cabinet project, with what you currently have, i.e. no tablesaw, no slider or bandsaw, I would build a nice 4 x 8 assembly table. I would put a 3/4" 4 x 8 sheet of MDF with bench dogs holes on the top and use that for cutting the cabinet parts. I'd use a Parf Dog hole system ($200) to make the bench dog holes in the MDF. Then with this you have a nice work surface and with a few bench dogs, great registration for cutting all your cabinet pieces.

I would probably still break the sheet goods down, on the floor, with the sheet plywood laying on 2" pink solid foam. I use a GRS Square, attached to my Festool track for cross cutting the sheet goods, just a little more convenient that measuring two sets of pencil line and aligning my saw track to those.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmNyPvsfSCo

As regards the lathe, this was my latest big tool purchase. Turning is fun and it's definitely something I plan to do more of, when other projects are complete, but lathes come up for sale all the time, so I'd wait until you have time to really explore this new skill set.

I made a few segmented bowls for Christmas presents last year, guess what tool I used to make the Wedgie Sled and the wedge segments for the bowls, my table saw.

I've made quite a few cutting boards, mostly using my tablesaw, jointer/planer and my drum sander.

Here's a few
https://app.photobucket.com/slideshow/u/cedwards874/a/a4582783-f02b-446c-8619-3859d3b6b4af

Thanks Chris! I've got a while to decide what way I go. I've been reading about some of the limitations of a band saw. I'm not keen on having to plane every rip to make it parallel.....maybe what i read is only on inexpensive band saws.... who knows

Did you make a video about your Wedgie sled too?

I like those cutting boards too. especially the criss crossy weavy one. =)

[Mike Kees]

Jon,I think that building a full set of cabinets with a tracksaw would be very slow and painful. I build cabinets for clients,there are a ton of pieces to cut out. Not saying you can not do it,but the time involved will be way more than if you have a tablesaw/slider to use. I also have a big bandsaw to use for solid wood breakdown. I regularily resaw and rip stock to make baseboards and casing,etc. Everything off the bandsaw is jointed and planed before further milling to get to finished product. Stock is square and parallel off my bandsaw just not smooth.

[Jon Steffen]

Jon,I think that building a full set of cabinets with a tracksaw would be very slow and painful. I build cabinets for clients,there are a ton of pieces to cut out. Not saying you can not do it,but the time involved will be way more than if you have a tablesaw/slider to use. I also have a big bandsaw to use for solid wood breakdown. I regularily resaw and rip stock to make baseboards and casing,etc. Everything off the bandsaw is jointed and planed before further milling to get to finished product. Stock is square and parallel off my bandsaw just not smooth.
Do you adjust for drift on your bandsaw by tweaking the fence out of parallel to the miter slot, or do you "Simply by keeping the centerline of the blade (regardless of width) in line with the centerline of the upper wheel" like fine woodworking suggests?

i've read like 5 articles that say tweak the fence, and finewoodworking was the only one to suggest adjusting the upper wheel blade tracking to get the proper result.........seems to make sense.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2018/07/16/two-fixes-for-bandsaw-drift

[ChrisA Edwards]

I experienced bandsaw drift initially, didn't fully understand it until I'd watched about 10 youtube videos.

I had bought a lot of rough sawn lumber that I needed to resew to half the thickness. The bandsaw drift killed me, I bought two different blades and that's when I found out about the drift.

I did purchase a Carter magnetic fence and the FAST (Fence Alignment System Tool) and initially used that to counter the drift. Then I used it to dial out the drift and now my saw cuts without drift.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h49c-Ckjr9w

There's lots of techniques to dial out the drift and lots of Youtube videos showing how to.

On the wedgie sled, no, I watched other people videos and copied. Very simple to make. I think some of them had links to their plans for the dimensions.

[Jim Dwight]

If I did this right this should be a link to a thread on the FOG, Festool Owners Group, from a guy who makes cabinets for a living using a track saw and 4x8 cutting table:https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/an-evolved-8x4-mft-and-a-system-to-cut-panels-quickly-and-accurately/. The basic idea is to make the large table and bore 20mm holes and then use the holes with dogs to index the cuts. He makes spacers to move the work away from the dog holes the right amount. There is a video. Pretty fast, might be as fast as a slider.

My outfeed/assembly/track saw cutting table is 3x7 which I find big enough to cut up full sheets while fitting my small 14x24 shop better than a 4x8 would. I put a sheet of foam down for a lot of cuts but if I need to crosscut large sheets, I put long dogs on my shortest guide rail and use a fence on the edge of the table or dogs to index the work in the other direction. I can crosscut over 31 inches on my 36 inch wide table doing this and the crosscuts are accurate enough all my squares say they are square.

There are multiple ways to get the holey top. I bought a woodrave router base and used pegboard. I was skeptical of the accuracy of this but it seems to be plenty accurate. Due to pegboard hole spacing my holes are on 4 inch centers instead of 96mm. It would affect the spacers used in the linked setup but doesn't really affect what I do. You can also get somebody to CNC you a top or get a jig designed by Peter Parffitt (sp?) that is probably more accurate than what I did.

There are other ideas of how to do this on the FOG including an interesting mobile MFT like station that can be expanded.

[Jeffrey Hood]

My 2 cents... I have a small basement workshop, and got a Festool TS55 and an MFT table to start... already had a Grizzly 14" bandsaw, and did think about a table saw, but really don't have the room (and had a run in with my old one 20+ years ago in the pre Sawstop days...) I liked the safety aspect of the tracksaw... I've built a few shop cabinets since then, and the track saw does a great job of breaking down the sheets of ply and cutting pieces... I agree with on of the other posters that they are fiddly when trying to cut a small piece, and aren't the best for ripping hardwood, but that is what I use the bandsaw for... I will note that I don't mind using a jointer plane to true up the bandsaw edge of a rip, and yeah it takes a bit more time, but I just don't have the room for large equipment in my shop... with a tracksaw, bandsaw, a good benchtop planer, and a few hand tools, there isn't much of anything that I couldn't do... maybe not as quickly and efficiently as with a table saw and nice jointer (and if I had the space or a dedicated shop I would have gone that route...) but fast enough for hobby work...

Since you already have the tracksaw and planer, I would get a nice bandsaw (5k is a lot for a bandsaw IMHO... I have been looking at the Laguna that is around 1.5k and I can't see needing anything better than that...) and the MFT (or two of them...) or make your own like someone else mentioned... and get some of the tracksaw accessories (TSO squares and parallel guides...) and I don't think you will look back... and you would have a lot of money left over for the lathe and even a jointer... I got one of the Cutech benchtop jointers a while back and even though I don't use it that much, it is handy for some things and easy to put out of the way... I wish I had a large space to have dedicated floor tools, but I enjoy hand tools and also the lack of noise and dust... :)

JH

[ChrisA Edwards]

If I did this right this should be a link to a thread on the FOG, Festool Owners Group, from a guy who makes cabinets for a living using a track saw and 4x8 cutting table:https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/an-evolved-8x4-mft-and-a-system-to-cut-panels-quickly-and-accurately/.

Direct link... This is exactly what I was describing above..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1273&v=dVolGahWmSk&feature=emb _logo

[Brian W Evans]

You don't mention having a jointer. This is not strictly necessary, but I wouldn't enjoy being without one. I also would not like to be without a table saw - it's just too versatile and powerful. If you're not doing tons of resawing, a decent 14" bandsaw sounds like it would do what you need it to do.

If you go the MFT-type table route, I would go with 20mm instead of 3/4" just for compatibility with Festool stuff. You also definitely have to have a Parf guide or get a CNC shop to make the holes for you. I don't think you'll get good enough accuracy over 8' otherwise.

[Keith Outten]

I have a Felder FB610 with a one inch carbide blade and it will rip lumber faster then my cabinet saw and just as accurate. I have never had to allow for any drift, the high end band saws are amazing.

[Stewart Lang]

Jon, what part of WI are you in? I'm from Wausau originally, still got family there too :)

So for 10k I think you're investing too heavily into just a few setups/machines. Unless you're doing strictly lathe work, a bandsaw is only an "add-on" to a cabinet/furniture shop in my opinion. An MFT table setup is slow and limited compared to a true sliding table saw.

For 10k here's what I'd get:

Grizzly G0623x Sliding Table Saw - $3375 | I've personally had one, they're fantastic little sliders, especially for the money.
13" Dewalt DW735 planer with Byrd head - This might set you back $1000 or so.
Grizzly 8" Jointer - $1000+
Grizzly 14" Bandsaw w/ 6" riser block - $600?
Good dust collector - Like a roll-around single or double canister unit. Don't get a cheap mount-on-the-wall unit, get a real one, at least 2hp.
Benchtop lathe - If you want to get into that work.

That should set you back 6-7k, and then I'd keep the remainder on-hand to buy things as you find a need, because you will. Don't put all your eggs into one basket until you know your exact needs.

Of course, you can find higher-end equipment for even less if you shop used. I'd be keeping an eye on the local market like a hawk, accumulating machinery until your shop is finished. That would give you the best bang for your buck.


EDIT: Keep in mind too, you'll need some good accessories for some of these machines. For instance, the lathe. You'll need decent chisels, maybe 6+, a good sharpener plus attachments, or a grinder, maybe a few chucks. Don't sink all your money into just "one machine" thinking that's all you're going to need. Spend 50-70% on machinery, and you'll end up using the remainder filling in your needs with hand tools and accessories.

[Erik Loza]

...What do you guys think? Anybody have a full sized mft style table to break down 4x8 sheet goods instead of using a table saw or sliding table saw? Anybody enjoying just using a bandsaw and tracksaw, and don't even use a table saw?...

My 2-cents: The minute you start talking about cabinetry, carcases, etc. the bandsaw moves to the back of the list. The minute you start talking about solid wood and furniture making, the bandsaw moves to the front of the list. That being said, big bandsaws are awesome and I wouldn't want to be without one but it sounds like you have a budget. Since you are trying to prioritize things and it seems like casework is a priority, I would focus on the track saw/table saw scenarios first. Just my opinion. Good luck in your search. `

Erik

[Jon Steffen]

thanks to all for the ideas/links for parf like mft tops. I'll check out that video. That's something i'm for sure doing.


You don't mention having a jointer. This is not strictly necessary, but I wouldn't enjoy being without one. I also would not like to be without a table saw - it's just too versatile and powerful. If you're not doing tons of resawing, a decent 14" bandsaw sounds like it would do what you need it to do.

If you go the MFT-type table route, I would go with 20mm instead of 3/4" just for compatibility with Festool stuff. You also definitely have to have a Parf guide or get a CNC shop to make the holes for you. I don't think you'll get good enough accuracy over 8' otherwise.
You're right, i don't own a jointer yet, and I know that's something that I really should get.

I think you may be right that a decent 14" bandsaw will have the capacity to do what I want, I just don't know what brand makes a decent saw that doesn't have drift. Seems like from my reading and from comments like from Keith below, that accurate driftless bandsaws start in the $3k range. I'm sure there are tons of opinions on this as well, western vs european bandsaw, just like there is with table saws.


I have a Felder FB610 with a one inch carbide blade and it will rip lumber faster then my cabinet saw and just as accurate. I have never had to allow for any drift, the high end band saws are amazing.
Nice! The $4-6k bandsaws i had quoted before were SCM, i'm assuming similar build quality.

Jon, what part of WI are you in? I'm from Wausau originally, still got family there too :)

So for 10k I think you're investing too heavily into just a few setups/machines. Unless you're doing strictly lathe work, a bandsaw is only an "add-on" to a cabinet/furniture shop in my opinion. An MFT table setup is slow and limited compared to a true sliding table saw.

For 10k here's what I'd get:

Grizzly G0623x Sliding Table Saw - $3375 | I've personally had one, they're fantastic little sliders, especially for the money.
13" Dewalt DW735 planer with Byrd head - This might set you back $1000 or so.
Grizzly 8" Jointer - $1000+
Grizzly 14" Bandsaw w/ 6" riser block - $600?
Good dust collector - Like a roll-around single or double canister unit. Don't get a cheap mount-on-the-wall unit, get a real one, at least 2hp.
Benchtop lathe - If you want to get into that work.

That should set you back 6-7k, and then I'd keep the remainder on-hand to buy things as you find a need, because you will. Don't put all your eggs into one basket until you know your exact needs.

Of course, you can find higher-end equipment for even less if you shop used. I'd be keeping an eye on the local market like a hawk, accumulating machinery until your shop is finished. That would give you the best bang for your buck.


EDIT: Keep in mind too, you'll need some good accessories for some of these machines. For instance, the lathe. You'll need decent chisels, maybe 6+, a good sharpener plus attachments, or a grinder, maybe a few chucks. Don't sink all your money into just "one machine" thinking that's all you're going to need. Spend 50-70% on machinery, and you'll end up using the remainder filling in your needs with hand tools and accessories.
I'm just 30 mi south of Wausau actually! the G0623x was/is in the running.

You make a great point about not spending all the budget just on the equipment because accessories can add up. I've already got the Dewalt planer and i'm getting a V3000 dust collector, (that's not part of the $10k).



My 2-cents: The minute you start talking about cabinetry, carcases, etc. the bandsaw moves to the back of the list. The minute you start talking about solid wood and furniture making, the bandsaw moves to the front of the list. That being said, big bandsaws are awesome and I wouldn't want to be without one but it sounds like you have a budget. Since you are trying to prioritize things and it seems like casework is a priority, I would focus on the track saw/table saw scenarios first. Just my opinion. Good luck in your search. `
Erik
Well from a projects standpoint you're right. The casework needs to be done first, but I want to make sure if I do get a table saw that it will be a good purchase when i'm done with the casework. I don't want to be kicking myself after the fact that I find out I should have bought a great bandsaw and just dealt with the slow, but accurate cutting of the tracksaw for the casework.

I know I sound wishy washy and eventually i'll have to be the one to make the call.

I appreciate all your feedback!

[ChrisA Edwards]

My Laguna 14/12 ($1100), test cut after sorting out the drift.

You don't need to spend a gazillion, for a bandsaw, it's just a metal blade turning on two wheels with rubber, well synthetic, tires.

Watch the blade, at the guides, there's no twisting or deflection.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0WLypukpSY

[John Lanciani]

My 1942 Delta 14” band saw does not drift, period. Nor Does my 2007 MiniMax MM20. Good blades (not “Swedish Steel”) a thorough understanding of how a band saw works, and proper settings and maintenance eliminate “drift” permenantly.

[Rick Potter]

Just a quick comment on the lathe.

Why not pick up a used midi lathe, just to try it out and see if you like it? I have bought and sold several for the $200-300 range. Try it, and sell it to get a big one, or sell it if you don't like it.

You could also pick up some really inexpensive lathe tools. This would be a very inexpensive way to learn to properly sharpen and use them on the cheap, before investing the farm.

[Jon Steffen]

Just a quick comment on the lathe.

Why not pick up a used midi lathe, just to try it out and see if you like it? I have bought and sold several for the $200-300 range. Try it, and sell it to get a big one, or sell it if you don't like it.

You could also pick up some really inexpensive lathe tools. This would be a very inexpensive way to learn to properly sharpen and use them on the cheap, before investing the farm.

I like your thinking Rick. Playing for 20 minutes on somebody else's lathe might not be enough, I'll start checking around for used lathes.

[Mike King]

Drift is an issue of setup and/or blade sharpness. Whatever bandsaw you buy, you will need to learn how to setup the saw and eliminate drift.

I have two bandsaws and a slider. The slider is a fantastic tool for cabinetry AND solid wood work. My bandsaws are great for resawing and curved work. That being said, if I could only have one tool, it would be the slider.

I'd look for a used sider...


Mike

[Alex Zeller]

I would move the lathe into it's own category. If you are interested then try to find a wood turners club. It's addictive but you will find you will be spending plenty of money on it. You'll also find that you will want support equipment. A bandsaw to process blacks (not needed but makes life much easier), a drum sander (if you want to make segmented bowls, and a sharpening system. Then there's the stuff that you will need for the lathe, a chuck, turning tools, etc). It adds up. The more you do the more things you will want to acquire so you can expand and do more things. A turning club can help steer you in the right direction.

If you have access to wood (around here the power company and towns will often cut trees into log lengths and leave them on the side of the road for anyone who wants them) then you will want a few tools to go with a lathe. A chainsaw (a cordless one would work well) is almost a must. A 14" Delta clone with a riser block will work for processing wood bowl blanks but something like a BX18 or G0514X2 will make the process much easier. If you stick to small things like pen blanks then all you'll need is smaller tools. Segmented bowls will require a tablesaw and a jointer is nice to have as well. However if you start turning you are going to quickly want to do more than just pen blacks. My personal opinion is people buy the midi lathes and either don't find time to turn or they want to turn bigger projects. That's why I skipped a smaller lathe and jumped right up to one with a 20" swing.

I would skip the lathe and get all the other tools I wanted and then come back once you've got the "must do" projects taken care of. Chances are you'll have a lot of the tools needed to complement the lathe. I would have a lathe in mind when I did purchase the other tools. That's why I was suggesting going with a bigger bandsaw than the 14" Delta clone.

[Jon Steffen]

Just as an update in case anybody is interested. I've ordered a Noden adjust a bench "low boy", Not even on the website yet, and sounds like not all the parts have been fabricated either, lol.

Also ordered some parf stuff to make a top for my bench.

This weekend i'll be cleaning the garage and setting up the saw horses and plane some 2x4s for a nice flat work surface to build the work surface on (chicken and the egg, lol).

[ChrisA Edwards]

Cool, looking forward to the progress. (Pictures, or it didn't happen...:))

[Jon Steffen]

Cool, looking forward to the progress. (Pictures, or it didn't happen...:))
HA HA, absolutely!

[Dave Sabo]

I'm late to the conversation but have a suggestion not mentioned yet .

Forget about a slider and even most of the gear you're thinking/dreaming about for making boxes. Sure , it looks like you have a lot of them to make ; but it doesn't sound like thats' your passion or a line of work you want to get into. So, tooling up to process sheet goods isn't a very efficient use of capital in either the short term or long.

No one (that I know of) waxes on about how great, square , pretty , or whatever when it comes to cabinet carcasses. Why not just order what you need and want when you need it from one of the businesses that specialize in just that ? They will almost certainly be cheaper per box than you can get to even if you value your time at zero. Ditto with the drawers, and usually the doors too.

Buy equipment that will allow you to make the doors if you want. A jointer, planer, and shaper or router table can be used on lots of woodworking projects other than making doors. So can a reg. cabinet saw. I'd be looking to spend the bulk of my dough on the tools like the lathe and bandsaw if that's what you think you want to enjoy later. Treat the case work as a business and embrace outsourcing.

I know it's enticing to think about getting "free" tools because you're going to do x project anyway and I might as well get this . But, that's a collector's mentality.